--- Log opened Sat Apr 08 00:00:39 2023
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00:08 < morena> I hate ctrl, my fingers are not made for that, enough with tmux
00:09 < xtile> Yeah, even if I move ctrl to the caps lock key, I think for editing text, modal editing is more ergonomic
00:10 < xtile> I think IBM- and Emacs-style bindings are alright for some quick things, so I'm not offended when a shell's in emacs editing mode
00:10 < oldlaptop> There *are* usually at least two Ctrl keys.
00:10 < xtile> but not for long form shaping of text
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00:11 < xtile> I do enjoy how X programs sometimes use ctrl for menus, like xedit and xterm
00:11 < xtile> I find that natural.
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00:11 < xtile> ctrl-leftclick, ctrl-rightclick, ctrl-middleclick, those are all very easy operations for me
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00:28 < morena> uf I think I never used right ctrl
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00:28 < morena> too many keys there, I would hit something else probably
00:29 < xtile> Right-control feels really far away: I don't use it either
00:30 < xtile> I don't think I even use right-shift
00:30 < xtile> yeah, I think I only use the left-side modifiers
00:31 < morena> on this T400 I have ISO keyboard with big enter and fn is even on left, it's harder than normal
00:31 < morena> win is tiny - used for cwm
00:32 < thrig> is that the horrible keyboard that makes \ hard to get to
00:32 < morena> yes, I usually hit enter instead ;/
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00:32 < morena> so true new line
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00:37 < morena> anyway I am back to mail
00:39 < morena> even it is possible to remove headers, but with all these apple/outlook 1000 lines headers is probably not worth ;/
00:40 < morena> added just some base ignore
00:42 < thrig> at one point I had a 8192 buffer to check for the subject "because when would the headers ever be longer than..." and then bam! Microsoft came along and crapped up the headers
00:43 < morena> obviously was not even able to check message body in apple mail on web, they probably use something cool to render text 
00:43 < morena> had to clean install chromium without any blockers and so 
00:44 < morena> now they have even my DNA probably
00:45 < morena> ye somebody say you hello from outlook and you get 1000 lines of gibberish
00:45 < morena> and if you reply, you are lucky if you end in their junk and not ignored or rejected at all ;/
00:47 < gnucode> does openBSD sign their commits to cvs?  I assume that they do not use gpg...
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00:49 < phy1729> no
00:49 < phy1729> sets and packages are signed with signify
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01:14 < coreystephanphd> jcs: pm sent re: very small thing
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01:20 < corigins> thrig: damn really? what should I do about nfs hanging then -.-
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01:23 < thrig> pick your poison
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01:31 < opv> i got this thought i'd like to rubberduck with someone, cause i'm not sure if it's a good idea or a stupid/insane one, involving ansible code
01:32 < opv> pls dm if you're up for it
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13:17 < a1fa> 7.3 we there yet
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13:22 < quinq> One more month
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13:25 < a1fa> NEIN!!!
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13:30 < lts> Now it's two months
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13:39 < khusuvo13> Hello guys.
13:39 < arpeas> Heya
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13:40 < khusuvo13> I'm thinking of buying the yoga 7i and was wondering if there would be any problems? type xorg, audio or whatever
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13:44 < khusuvo13> For reference: Intel Core i5-1240P, Intel Iris Xe, WiFi 6E, SSD GEN4 1TB and some usb a,c
13:49 < quinq> khusuvo13, go to the store with your OpenBSD cd and ask the seller to boot it
13:50 < khusuvo13> the problem that is an online purchase ;(
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13:51 < khusuvo13> but if it runs linux, is it guaranteed to also run openbsd?
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13:53 < arpeas> Do you know what network card it's got?
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13:54 < quinq> khusuvo13, no it's not guaranteed in that aspect
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13:55 < arpeas> khusuvo13: I'm not sure if you'll get GPU acceleration working; i'm not sure if the Xe line of Iris graphics is supported.
13:56 < khusuvo13> The audio is Realtek ALC3306. The network i think is AX201 Wi-Fi 6E 11ax, 2x2 + BT5.1
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14:00 < arpeas> I've found the PSREF for the machine: you're all good with networking. How do you know the audio chip?
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14:05 < Xe> khusuvo13: wait, a 12th gen or a 1st gen?
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14:06 < khusuvo13> About the gen, is 12th
14:09 < khusuvo13> Now about the audio chip is hd audio, realtek ALC3306 codec
14:11 < arpeas> Wait, are you looking to get the *Legion* or the Yoga? I'm confused, as the Yoga's PSREF doesn't explicitly state the sound chip.
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14:11 < arpeas> And both series have a 7i model.
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14:12 < khusuvo13> Yoga 7i 16'
14:12 < arpeas> Oh, I was looking at the 14" model.
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14:21 < arpeas> khusuvo13: No idea whether or not the sound would work. I found barely no info on the chip, and none in the manpages.
14:22 < arpeas> * Barely *some* info.
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14:23 < khusuvo13> no problem in this part, i gonna using my p2 headphone most of the time.
14:23 < khusuvo13> so, xorg will able to run?
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14:27 < beastie> xorg has nothing to do with the sound system.
14:28 < beastie> khusuvo13: this was for you.
14:28 < rsjw> I'm looking for the original definition of the syscallarg macro in /usr/src/sys/sys/syscallargs.h. that file says it was generated by syscalls.master but when I go to syscalls.master, it has an #include for sys/syscallargs.h. is this definition rooted somewhere that is actually concrete or is it just a perpetuating circular dependency?
14:29 < khusuvo13> i mean, apart from the sound itself. will xorg work?
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14:33 < beastie> please, don't ask if your car will work also.... there's no relationship between the sound card and the video card.  So, if the display doesn't work, that will be on another cause, different than the one affecting the sound.
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14:35 < khusuvo13> i think theres a misunderstanding going on here
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14:35 < beastie> probably.... 
14:36 < khusuvo13> if the sound doesn't work, is it only in the speaker or in the headphone as well?
14:36 < khusuvo13> if the sound doesn't work, is it only in the speaker or in the headphone as too?
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14:49 < arpeas> khusuvo13: X.Org in itself will work, however most likely only with the VESA graphics driver, as, again, I don't believe the intel(4) driver supports the Iris Xe.
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14:50 < oldlaptop> beastie: Nowadays video cards often *are* "sound cards", for audio over HDMI and DisplayPort. (I don't believe that works on OpenBSD, however.)
14:51 < arpeas> khusuvo13: As for your other question: I have no idea. I don't have the same hardware, but judging by what I found (or didn't find, rather) in the manpages, the sound chip probably isn't supported.
14:51 < lts> We'd probably need conversion to analog audio for them to be real sound cards
14:52 < oldlaptop> lts: Then again, "real sound cards" often have digital outputs too
14:52 < khusuvo13> If the sound chip doesn't work, it wouldn't even work with headphones, correct?
14:52 < arpeas> Correct.
14:53 < oldlaptop> If we're talking about a laptop, *analog* headphones and microphones, that you connect with a 3.5mm 'headphone jack', will almost certainly work if and only if the laptop's speakers work.
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14:54 < oldlaptop> "USB headphones" or a "USB headset" are actually USB sound cards that happen to be built in to a pair of headphones. *Those* don't care about the system's audio hardware, they should just work.
14:54 < oldlaptop> It's very likely the system's audio hardware will work, most are just azalia(4) these days
14:55 < arpeas> oldlaptop: How is digital audio even accessible by the user? Genuine question.
14:57 < oldlaptop> I believe the usual use case (besides HDMI/DP audio, which is probably the single most common sort of "digital audio output" in a home-user context) is to connect some kind of fancy home theater surround-sound head unit thing with its own DAC.
14:57 < oldlaptop> (Obviously there's going to need to be a DAC somewhere.)
14:58 < khusuvo13> now, about video acceleration, I thought that OpenBSD made a fork of Linux DRM, and if it works on Linux, it would also work on OpenBSD without problems.
14:58 < oldlaptop> computer sound cards that have a digital output also often happen to have discrete *analog* surround outputs, but that's a lot of extra wires
14:59 < oldlaptop> khusuvo13: That's more or less the case, though I'm not sure "fork" is quite the right word. The question would be whether openbsd has imported a sufficiently recent version of the driver you need.
15:00 < sibiria> khusuvo13: GPU acceleration is so-so on openbsd. most nvidia/amd/intel work for basic 2D stuff to ease up things like windows moving around and certain rendering. accelerated 3D works decently on some GPUs but far from everywhere
15:00 < khusuvo13> Real, but maybe in OpenBSD 7.3 they will bring this necessary driver, I don't know, considering that CPU is recent, from 2022.
15:01 < sibiria> accelerated video decoding is entirely void still
15:01 < oldlaptop> sibiria: Functionally zero NVIDIA things get any acceleration at all, and functionally all intels and radeons get full 3D acceleration.
15:01 < oldlaptop> (the hardware nv(4) supports is all ancient now)
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15:04 < rsjw> found it, it's in makesyscalls.sh
15:06 < rsjw> what would be the desired interface to provide accelerated video decoding?
15:07 < rsjw> as I understand it, Xv is just for copying whole frames, but I might be misunderstanding it
15:07 < sibiria> VA-API and VDPAU is the standard on linux
15:08 < sibiria> both are MIT-licensed
15:08 < sibiria> ...i think
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15:09 < oldlaptop> khusuvo13: I *suspect* 7.2 should support the graphics hardware in https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/132221/intel-core-i51240p-processor-12m-cache-up-to-4-40-ghz/specifications.html based on the 7.2 release notes (text search "Alder Lake"): https://www.openbsd.org/72.html
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15:09 < oldlaptop> there's a *lot* of commits to trawl through looking for smoking guns :P
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15:11 < oldlaptop> as far as I'm aware "Intel Iris Xe" in this case is still built in to the CPU like before, it's just another fancy brand name
15:11 < oldlaptop> (or two of them, really - they used to just call extra-beefy iGPUs "Iris")
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15:14 < khusuvo13> inteldrm(4): support for Alder Lake, Raptor Lake
15:14 < arpeas> khusuvo13: Then the manpage wasn't updated.
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15:16 < arpeas> My bad for believeing it isn't supported, khusuvo13 
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15:16 < oldlaptop> The drm(4) manual page doesn't normally specify which exact models are supported
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15:17 < oldlaptop> (It says "Intel integrated graphics chipsets" at the moment, which appears to be what that machine actually has)
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15:18 < arpeas> oldlaptop: I was looking at the intel(4) manpage, which does list all the exact models. Wait, I now vaguely recall changing from drm(4) to intel(4) the 1st time I installed the OS; isn't intel(4) deprecated?
15:19 < arpeas> TearFree, I believe that's why I changed from drm.
15:19 < oldlaptop> intel(4) is one of the X.org userland drivers, and I think only gets used for old stuff nowadays
15:19 < byteskeptical> arpeas: yeah unless you have some older hardware
15:20 < brynet> modern intel devices use the modesetting driver, which despite the name is accelerated.
15:20 < arpeas> So I've mixed everything up here. I'm not having issues with intel(4) because I'm using a HD4000.
15:21 < byteskeptical> I would check permission on /dev/dri/card0 if your having issues
15:21 < arpeas> I'm not.
15:22 < byteskeptical> even better
15:22 < khusuvo13> Then, what's the final answer? Does it work or not?
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15:24 < arpeas> khusuvo13: I say you should take a shot & try, especially if you can return it if it doesn't.
15:25 < khusuvo13> I don't think it's going to be possible, especially since it's a purchase outside of my country.
15:25 < byteskeptical> khusuvo13: It's in /sys/dev/pci/pcidevs
15:26 < byteskeptical> product ATI RADEON_HD4000_HDA     0xaa38  Radeon HD 4000 HD Audio
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15:26 < arpeas> khusuvo13: Then perhaps try to find it locally? If that's not possible, maybe try to find an older machine, say a T480? While older, they're still beasts.
15:27 < khusuvo13> i wanted a t480 but it is more expensive than this one
15:28 < gnucode> khusuvo13: I am using a T400.  I fits my needs pretty well.  :)   
15:28 < khusuvo13> and I also get it for the high resolution
15:28 < gnucode> I haven't gotten wifi to work yet.  
15:30 < sibiria> you may need to resort to some USB device known to work
15:31 < sibiria> unless you can get intel wifi internally. it's unfortunately the most supported vendor currently
15:32 < sibiria> some m.2 intel wifi card or so
15:34  * oldlaptop would have thought most T400s shipped with intel wifi
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15:35 < sibiria> gnucode has something atheros if i remember correctly. but maybe his wifi woes weren't related to his T400
15:36 < sibiria> but yeah they all shipped with Centrino stuff
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15:40 < gnucode> oldlaptop: I'm a GNU fan boy still.  I prefer to use one of those libre-firmware devices.  I have a usb wifi that OpenBSD supports and the firmware is libre.  (GPL v2 and some MIT).  I just have not gotten it to work yet.  
15:41 < gnucode> I also have a 1/2 a credit card size wifi module that I put under the keyboard.  That works on Linux, but I don't think OpenBSD has a driver for it.   
15:41 < gnucode> sibiria: yet.  I believe it is an atheos usb.  
15:43 < gnucode> dmesg says this "athn0: AR9271 rev 1 (1T1R), ROM rev 15"   
15:43 < sibiria> about half of the cards listed on the athn(4) man page actually don't work
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15:44 < arpeas> gnucode: I had another device based on that chipset, and boy is it a pain in the ass to get working, even under Linux.
15:44 < gnucode> sibiria: oh.  that's a little sad.  I'm ok using the ethernet cord anyway.  
15:45 < arpeas> And you're correct about it not working on OpenBSD; there's no driver for it for *any* BSD, IIRC.
15:46 < sibiria> 6000-series intel centrino wifi for the T400 can be found for like $15 on ebay, if it's to any relief
15:47 < gnucode> arpeas man athn  lists my usb wifi card as being supported.  ifconfig does see it.  
15:47 < gnucode> sibiria  would that use non-free firmware ?  
15:48 < gnucode> Not trying to start a flame war.      
15:48 < sibiria> almost all the wifi firmware is non-free
15:48 < sibiria> incl. intel's
15:48 < sibiria> though i don't know if the 6000-series needs firmware
15:48 < sibiria> external firmware that is
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15:49 < gnucode> sibiria: that's a really sad state of affairs.  :)   But I do like that there are new devices becoming available that are much free-er.  Raptor, MNT, pinephone, librem 5.   
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15:50 < arpeas> Sorry, I just looked at github.com/qca/open-ath9k-htc-firmware and the author says it's supported under OpenBSD. The reason for my previous statement was that I was compiling that save driver for Linux a year or 2 ago, and I believe that at that time it wasn't supported under any BSD.
15:52 < arpeas> sibiria: It does. Source: using a 6300 right now.
15:52 < gnucode> arpeas: my hope is restored.  I will try to get it working again at some point.  
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16:04 < gnucode> To all you OpenBSD developers, here's a free hug from me.   
16:04 < gnucode> https://media.makeameme.org/created/big-hug-for-5a16d8.jpg   
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17:02 < gnucode> hmmm, I am trying to figure out how to auto mount a .iso image that is on a usb stick to /mnt/iso0.  
17:03 < gnucode> The faq seems to say that I need to use vnconfig...let me check out that manual
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17:05 < gnucode> man the vnconfig manual and faq just assume that your iso image is located in /tmp  
17:06 < gnucode> but my iso image is on /dev/sd3   
17:06 < pardis> it's too bad it's not possible to change an example
17:07 < rsjw> is the .iso within a file system on the usb stick or was it written to the c partition?
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17:08 < gnucode> rsjw: I think it was written to the c partition.  In linux I wrote the iso image to the device via "dd if=file.iso of=/dev/sdb"  
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17:08 < gnucode> pardis I did try to change the example.  what I tried was    
17:09 < gnucode> doas vnconfig vnd0 /dev/rsd3a  
17:09 < gnucode> and   "doas vnconfig vnd0 /dev/rsd3c"     
17:09 < gnucode> both returned:  vnconfig: VNDIOCSET: Bad address    
17:09 < rsjw> the "a" partition is used when there is a file system on the device
17:09 < pardis> well yes, they would
17:09 < pardis> neither of those is a regular file
17:09 < dev1ls> gnucode: .iso not a dev
17:10 < sibiria> if you wrote the is file out to storage already you should be able to just "mount -t cd9660 ..."
17:10 < pardis> have you tried just 'disklabel sd3' to see what partitions are on that, given that's where you wrote the image to?
17:10 < sibiria> iso file*
17:10 < sibiria> mounting the iso *file* itself is where vnconfig comes in
17:10 < sibiria> in order to create a virtual storage device from a file
17:12 < gnucode> I did only start using openbsd a week ago.  Still learning.  let me try just mounting the /dev/sd3c.  I didn't realize that you could do that.  hhmmmm.  
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17:13 < rsjw> use the partitions that disklabel sd3 reports
17:13 < gnucode> well that worked! hahah.  yup.  It's partition c.  thanks.  
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17:26 < pardis> you should generally not mount partition c directly
17:26 < pardis> did you look at the output of 'disklabel sd3' at all?
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17:26 < gnucode> pardis yup.
17:26 < gnucode> partition c and a were the only ones.  :)  
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17:26 < pardis> so partition a is the one with the ISO filesystem on it
17:26 < pardis> partition c only happens to work in this case because of the weirdness of how ISO images work
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17:26 < gnucode> pardis  my mistake.  I did actualy mount partiton a.  
17:26 < gnucode> yes.  c is code for the whole usb stick.  
17:26 < gnucode> it should not be used for mounting.  thanks.  gotta run!  
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18:58 < rsjw> is there any manual page or other documentation that states the expected semantics of the struct fileops operations in /usr/src/sys/sys/file.h?
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19:07 < IcePic> rsjw: you might just have to look at how one of the fs's implement those fileops
19:08 < thrig> docs on various header files is pretty sparse. maybe man them up?
19:09 < rsjw> IcePic: yeah that might be the best available option
19:10 < rsjw> thrig: I'm still trying to understand how it all works so I can't promise anything, but I'll keep it in mind
19:11 < thrig> but for some process stuff I ended up cargo culting code from ps and sysctl
19:12 < IcePic> I thought "man vfs" -> "man vnode" would be the other end of those ops, but the vnode manpage while having lots of info, didn't match very closely to those fileops
19:13 < IcePic> obviously some more fs-related things are responsible for the stuff in between. 
19:13 < rsjw> the vnode end of it is with vn_{read,write,etc} in /usr/src/sys/kern/vfs_vnops.c
19:15 < IcePic> indeed
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19:48 < lavaball> i kept pushing ipsec ahead of me for so long that wireguard took its place ...  4 years ago?!
19:48 < lavaball> well, works for me.
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20:01 < sibiria> what do people use for dhcpv6? isc dhclient?
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20:07 < gnucode> lavaball: do you pay a VPN for wireguard or do you use your own VPS for that?
20:07 < gnucode> pay a VPN company*
20:11 < phy1729> dhcpcd
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20:13 < sibiria> phy1729: does that somehow help for client needs?
20:13 < sibiria> can it relay requests outwards or something
20:14 < sibiria> dhcpleased looks stuck in ipv4. was hoping i could get away without installing isc dhclient
20:14 < phy1729> It can do v6 PD
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20:16 < sibiria> so it gets the prefix from ISP/provider and just delegates it further
20:17 < sibiria> prefix + address
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20:33 < sibiria> slaacd seems to have worked after all
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20:36 < sibiria> or not. something came through at least, but it's not the provider's prefix allocated for me
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22:58 < lavaball> oh, sysupgrade. is 7.3 out?
22:58 < lavaball> hm. apparently not. 
22:58 < lavaball> never mind.
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23:03 < zwr> 32-bit powerpc and 32-bit ARM aren't in the repos yet so those are probably still compiling. you can have a pretty good guess of when the release will come out based on which platforms are ready
23:04 < lavaball> oh, no rush.
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23:04 < lavaball> i was just surprised that -sn did something. nothing happened the past few days.
23:04 < lavaball> i'm just waiting for the new uwacom drivers ,but they won't be in there until 7.4 if not 5.
23:05 < lavaball> but then i can finally send dick picks again!
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23:11 < lavaball> i just realized i never allowed my gre tunnel to come through the firewall. so pf doesn't see gre either just like dhcpd?
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23:24 < gnucode> I am really liking the fact the OpenBSD really encourages you to read the manuals, and the fact that this community is encouraging me to do the same.  It's pretty awesome!
23:25 < morena> ye, restaurants, bars and any kind of shops and services should do the same ;/
23:27 < lavaball> well, it's easier here, since openbsd has a lot less features the man pages are shorter too.
23:28 < oldlaptop> https://flak.tedunangst.com/post/features-are-faults
23:28 < morena> oh you did not read xterm manual
23:28 < oldlaptop> (xterm is from xenocara - read: the filthy outside world)
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23:29 < oldlaptop> its internals are infamously complicated as well (arguably justifiably so, given how complicated terminals and their history are)
23:29 < gnucode> I didn't even know xterm had a manual.  I kind of wish it had a right click paste option...
23:29 < gnucode> I know you can still do CS-v.
23:29 < oldlaptop> I believe openbsd compiles out some of its features as well, e.g. tek mode
23:29 < oldlaptop> (which is useful in practice for... gnuplot, I guess? maybe?)
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23:57 < gnucode> oldlaptop: compiles out some of its features...interesting.
--- Log closed Sun Apr 09 00:00:34 2023