--- Log opened Sun Apr 30 00:00:10 2023
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01:13 < acidfoo> on the veb bridge there is an option 'protected' to set different domains, I thought it was to set different L2 broadcast domain, but my test doesn't seem to work. Maybe i'm not understanding correctly. I have tap0 and tap1 in my veb0 bridge, both in different protected domain. But I see L2 broadcast of each other reaching the other interface
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01:39 < morena> good helpful openbsd people hello ;/
01:40 < morena> Is there some issue to use smtpd without tls pki ... on listen? so just regular server - server on 25 without any kind of starttls?
01:40 < morena> Can it be understand by some servers as some "bad" sign?
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01:47 < highplainsdruid> not for just listening and receiving email, no
01:48 < morena> so even big brothers are okay without encryption?
01:50 < morena> also what you mean y just listening and receiving, should I do something else? ;/
01:50 < morena> or did you mean smtp/imap access from client
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01:54 < thrig> lettuce encrypt is pretty easy to setup and stick onto a smtpd
01:54 < morena> ye, not hard, I use it
01:54 < morena> but maybe pointless
01:54 < morena> with self signed cert
01:55 < morena> thrig: btw. finger was just a start, I am already in love with gopher ;/
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02:11 < highplainsdruid> let's encrypt isn't self signed
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02:12 < morena> oh it was mean as let's encrypt
02:12 < morena> I use self signed with stmpd
02:12 < highplainsdruid> i thnk that's probably worse than no tls
02:12 < morena> not let's encrypt corpo crap obviously
02:12 < highplainsdruid> no one will honor it
02:13 < morena> but mail did not check authority what I read
02:13 < morena> or does it?
02:13 < highplainsdruid> i don't really find let's encrypt to be corpo crap, quite the opposite so far as i can tell.  i haven't given them any money and the certs work
02:13 < morena> ye, gmail is free too
02:14 < highplainsdruid> what's the angle
02:14 < morena> it works until they allow it
02:14 < highplainsdruid> ??
02:14 < thrig> gmail sucks at sorting openbsd mailing list traffic not into spam
02:14 < highplainsdruid> gmail sucks
02:14 < morena> no idea, I don't use it ;/
02:14 < brocashelm> me neither
02:15 < highplainsdruid> i'm just trying to figure out why the tinfoil hattery around let's encrypt
02:15 < brocashelm> they are ok with google taking their data
02:15 < morena> highplainsdruid: it's centralized corpo authority funded by the same corpos like anything else
02:16 < pardis> so is Intel
02:16 < pardis> better stop using CPUs
02:16 < highplainsdruid> like it or not we live in a capitalist society and everything is somehow touched by capital
02:16 < brocashelm> ryzens then?
02:16 < highplainsdruid> none of my data flows through lets encrypt
02:17 < highplainsdruid> they don't have access to anything more valuable than the list of people who use their certs
02:17 < morena> pardis: but without cpu you can't compute, without let's encrypt you can do most things
02:17 < highplainsdruid> and the private keys i guess but you have to trust someone
02:17 < morena> highplainsdruid: you just relly on another authority, if you don't mind, that's okay, most poeple don't mind even advocate for it
02:18 < thrig> lettuce encrypt having the private keys would be a dubious security model
02:18 < highplainsdruid> private keys was the wrong word
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02:18 < highplainsdruid> certifying keys idk
02:18 < brocashelm> we live in a statist society
02:18 < thrig> generally the CA is sent a CSR
02:19 < pardis> you can compute without corporate-funded CPUs
02:19 < pardis> just buy a Loongson
02:19 < highplainsdruid> much safe
02:19 < highplainsdruid> no backdoors there
02:20 < rsjw> morena: how do people who send you mail verify that the self-signed certificate they receive from your domain is actually the correct one? do you only receive mail from people you personally exchange self-signed certs with?
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02:23 < morena> rsjw: does mail server verify certificates when sending email?
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02:26 < rsjw> I'd expect it to, if it's worth its salt. I wouldn't want my mail server to have a bunch of fake security controls
02:27 < rsjw> but hey, maybe I misunderstanding something
02:30 < thrig> you might see things like (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO) in a Received header
02:31 < morena> and maybe soon, if people will as usually put their shit into corpo authority, it will be required ;/
02:33 < morena> and what happened in web, will happen in mail
02:35 < rsjw> if you have another solution to the public key distribution problem that doesn't require centralized organization, I'd like to know
02:38 < morena> that's Theo's job, he is paid for it ;/
02:40 < oldlaptop> ...
02:42 < morena> but discussing encryption requires a lot of knowledge and it's not appropiate here probably
02:43 < morena> what I read, encryption was broken decades ago ;/
02:43 < oldlaptop> ...no.
02:43 < morena> and 5 eyes can get into anything anyway
02:43 < morena> and protecting from random boby to put trust into corpo evil is ...
02:44 < morena> how not? they pay, they make it like they make backdoors
02:44 < morena> it's the same like with cpu
02:45 < morena> these corpos don't waste millions that they protect you from themself
02:46 < morena> whatever technical explanation can be
02:46 < morena> there were many example when technically all was cool
02:47 < morena> apple or google can throw at you 1000 pages of technically correct papers about privacy and security
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02:53 < morena> but all these is more for ####revolution ;/ than #openbsd
02:53 < oldlaptop> Finally, something correct.
02:54 < morena> I was more currious if don't providing tls in smtpd can somehow "lower" score or pop up some issue
02:56 < thrig> maybe? anti-spam rules are many, and baroque
02:56 < morena> ye but this shit I assume is used when mail server is sending email to my server
02:57 < morena> on 25 hello, do you ssl? fuck off, oh okay, I don't talk plain
02:57 < morena> I hope not
02:57 < morena> I assume they always start plain
02:59 < rsjw> oh I see what you mean... you only have the self-signed cert to get tls-only servers to talk to you?
03:00 < morena> don't know if there are tls-only servers
03:00 < morena> I doubt
03:00 < rsjw> sure there are, you just configure it that way
03:01 < morena> ye, can be configured, not sure if that will work in real world
03:02 < morena> I setup tls option which is kind of starttls I think
03:02 < morena> so it connect plain to 25 and ask for starttls
03:03 < rsjw> yeah you're right, the self-signed wouldn't be known and therefore it'd be rejected
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05:17 < kodcode> Hi, good morning. 
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06:57 < markand> my server crashes each time I call reboot inside a vm oO
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06:59 < markand> ah no it still ping but is no longer ssh'able, what the duck...
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08:24 < brocashelm> thank you to those who helped me the other day on upgrading my openbsd
08:24 < brocashelm> next question: is it possible to run xfce without dbus running?
08:25 < brocashelm> i saw mention of that in a thread at freebsd's forum (commenting dbus_enable="YES" line in /etc/rc.conf)
08:25 < brocashelm> would that also apply to openbsd?
08:37 < xmszkn-> is any possible to turn on gpu accelaration Intel HD Graphics 1 gen ?
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12:08 < xmszkn-> how makes xorg.conf, Xorg -configure not working
12:08 < xmszkn-> ?
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14:23 < sewn> <tom-1> "if OpenBSD is aimed at security..." <- its included in openbsd in the base system
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17:59 < MaddieKalan> Is openbsd running some kind of spam filter? Because majordomo is not receiveing my mails, I can see on my MX that the message has been bounceing,
17:59 < MaddieKalan> "to=<majordomo@openbsd.org> rcpt=<-> source="107.189.1.153" relay="199.185.178.25 (mail.openbsd.org)" delay=15s result="TempFail" stat="451 Temporary failure, please try again later.""
18:01 -!- jsto [~jsto@user/jsto] has quit [Quit: jsto]
18:01 < sibiria> it graylists you for about 45 minutes
18:01 < sibiria> then it lets the e-mail through
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18:02 < MaddieKalan> sibiria: Intresting, why though? Never heard of such a thing before.
18:02 < sibiria> it's the oldest anti-spam measure around
18:02 < sibiria> practically inefficient these days, but they like to hold onto it
18:02 < MaddieKalan> How does it work, whats the idea?
18:03 < sibiria> in the past it cost a lot more for resources to keep sending e-mails over and over - capacity and network traffic etc.
18:03 < sibiria> so spammers gave up if they couldn't get the e-mail accepted in 1-2 tries
18:03 < sibiria> but these days graylisting of this kind is little else than an archaic nuisance
18:03 < MaddieKalan> Ah, so it makes you send the message after 45 minutes because sending emails was expensive for the spammer?
18:04 < MaddieKalan> And the idea would be that all MXs resend messages a lot of times so only legitimate once would keep doing so?
18:04 < sibiria> yes, it keeps rejecting you until you've tried over and over for a certain amount of time/attempts, then it considers you "legitimate" and accepts your submission
18:04 < thrig> 45 minutes grants time for some newly hacked IP to get into an RBL and then really blocked
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18:05 < MaddieKalan> Well, guess I'll wait 45 minutes, its intresting though, thank you for the new knowladge I just gained.
18:06 < sibiria> these days majordomo also seems to track history so eventually, if you're active enough, the graylisting delay goes down to a few minutes
18:06 < sibiria> at least that's what i've noticed on my own system when mailing the openbsd lists
18:06 < sibiria> these days my few submissions are accepted immediately, or after second attempt some minutes later
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18:07 < pardis> it is unlikely that majordomo has anything to do with the greylisting
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18:08 < pardis> the whole point of greylisting is that you whitelist after success, described in spamd(8)
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18:08 < pardis> it's only an annoyance when you first send to a new MX
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18:09 < n4dir> having said that i installed in qemu: The FAQ says to just use ~/.xsession and startx, that failed, and the web results are unclear about startx
18:10 < pardis> the FAQ does not say to use startx, it recommends that you do not use startx
18:10 < sibiria> with openbsd's lists it's a dynamic annoyance, evidently from how my delay now is either none or a few minutes. spamd doesn't offer any of that afaik
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18:10 < pardis> startx is unlikely to work in qemu
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20:11 < kqueue> does vmm support multiple vcpus?
20:12 < pardis> not per guest, no
20:12 < pardis> you can, of course, create multiple guests
20:13 < kqueue> wait so people just create multiple guests as a workaround?
20:13 < pardis> I don't know what people do, but that is one way to scale a workload
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20:16 < kqueue> do you have to use kubernetes or is there a more efficient way?
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20:42 < seninha> Hi, (kinda offtopic) Do other BSDs and UNIXes have the magic(5) database, and how much OpenBSD's differ from theirs?
20:43 < seninha> It seems that OpenBSD's magic database comes from a common ancestor with the find(1) present at most Linux distros.
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20:44 < xtile> I know FreeBSD also has a magic database.  I assume most Unixes have them...
20:44 < xtile> More likely to be relaed to file than find
20:44 < xtile> related*
20:44 < seninha> oh yeah, file(1)
20:45 < seninha> sorry, i mistyped that
20:45 < seninha> s/mistyped that/thought the wrong name/
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21:02 < jcmdln> tom: doas isn't a package, its included in the OpenBSD src tree https://github.com/openbsd/src/tree/master/usr.bin/doas
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21:16 < brynet> seninha: OpenBSD has it's own implementation of file(1), with privdrop and pledge(2) and maintains its own magic(5) database. The other *BSDs and Linux use the libmagic file(1), which has other potentially dangerous file format parsing besides magic(5).
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21:24 < seninha> Damn, just now I saw there's this /usr/local/bin/efile binary on my system from libmagic!
21:24 < seninha> The output of both file and efile are the same, it really seems they share a common ancestor.
21:25 < pardis> the outputs of two implementations of cat are also the same, but they don't all share a common ancestor
21:26 < seninha> xP
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21:27 < seninha> nvm, they differ for some files
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21:45 < rsjw> is running config as a regular user supported? the $ prompt used in https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq5.html#Custom seems to imply it is, but when I do it I get a "config: cannot write Makefile: Permission denied" error https://termbin.com/10eaw
21:47 < rsjw> (the perms on the Makefile in question, sys/arch/amd64/compile/Makefile, are -rw-r--r--)
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21:53 < pardis> if you want to write to your source tree as a user, that user must have write permission on the files in it
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21:55 < rsjw> the files are owned by my user
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21:56 < pardis> including the directory the Makefile is in?
21:59 < rsjw> yes. "find /usr/src -not -user rob" only prints "/usr/src", which is owned by root
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22:06 < pardis> oh, /usr/obj too?
22:06 < pardis> that's where it tries to write the Makefile, I think
22:06 < pardis> did you build a kernel as root previously and leave files lying around in /usr/obj?
22:07 < rsjw> ah yeah I overlooked /usr/obj. I'll clean that out
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22:09 < rsjw> yup that was it, thank you
22:10 < topcat001> https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq5.html has several tips on avoiding root
22:12 < rsjw> yup, the wsrc wobj jazz
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22:12 < topcat001> y
22:12 < topcat001> I have that set up
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22:13 < rsjw> yeah I'm doing the non-root thing too. although I may have accidentally built it as root last time
22:17 < topcat001> aha right I did that too :)
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23:44 < pr-asadi> Greetings. Is "Radeon HD 7450 1GB" supported? radeon(4) says "Radeon HD 7000, Radeon HD 7900, Radeon HD 7800, Radeon HD 7700" series are supported.
23:45 < jak3b> yes
23:45 < jak3b>  used to use one
23:45 < pr-asadi> jak3b: I'm using NVIDIA Geforce 210, the only driver I can use is nv(4) and it does not support two monitors.
23:45 < pr-asadi> I'm willing to buy a AMD graphic card.
23:45 < pr-asadi> But old one.
23:46 < jak3b> nvidea is a no go on openbsd
23:46 < jak3b> AMD works really well
23:46 < jak3b> Im using an rx 560
23:46 < pr-asadi> jak3b: Yes. It is not. That's why I am willing to buy an old AMD graphic card. 
23:46 < pr-asadi> jak3b: How much does it cost? Your RX 560 I mean.
23:47 < jak3b> I forget, less then $200 I think
23:47 < jak3b> it was awhile ago
23:47 < pr-asadi> OH, too much for me.
23:47 < jak3b> before that I had a hd 7450
23:47 < highplainsdruid> i don't think they're anywhere near that expensive now
23:47 < jak3b> worked great also
23:47 < pr-asadi> Do you suggest Radeon HD 7450?
23:47 < highplainsdruid> i have an rx560 and i want to say it was $75
23:47 < jak3b> probably not
23:48 < pr-asadi> highplainsdruid: I'm from Iran. Dollar is expensive here.
23:48 < highplainsdruid> hd7450 is pretty old
23:48 < highplainsdruid> but it will work
23:48 < jak3b> yep
23:48 < highplainsdruid> i have an hd6970 that still works
23:48 < highplainsdruid> with openbsd
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23:48 < pardis> I used to use one of the 6000 series cards (HD 6850, I think)
23:48 < pardis> worked really well
23:48 < pr-asadi> jak3b: probably not... -> You do not suggest it?
23:48 < pardis> cards of that vintage are perfectly adequate if you just want something that can drive two monitors and don't plan to do anything graphics-intensive
23:49 < jak3b> I suggest it
23:49 < jak3b> I was answering about the price
23:49 < highplainsdruid> they're not terribly power efficient but they work fine
23:49 < jak3b> I got mine a few years ago
23:49 < pr-asadi> pardis: I'm not doing anything. Just learning OpenBSD and coding.
23:49 < pr-asadi> jak3b: Thank you.
23:50 < pr-asadi> highplainsdruid: What do you mean by power efficient? The electricity?
23:51 -!- yu [~yu@user/yu] has quit [Quit: yu]
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23:53 < jak3b> I have a mid 2000's vintage Athlon pc, Openbsd runs really well on it, I can play 1080p HD movies, and HD youtubes with no glitches at all
23:54 < jak3b> I have 2 ssd drives, one with Voidlinux and one with Openbsd and I actually prefer watching movies on openbsd
23:55 < pr-asadi> jak3b: Radeon HD 7450 can play movies with no glitches? I watched movies with NVIDIA geforce 210 when I was on FreeBSD-12.
23:56 < jak3b> ya it was fine for movies, the 7450 is a good card, get it with 2 gigs if you can, 1 gig is probably fine though
23:56 < pr-asadi> jak3b: My NVIDIA Geforce 210 is 512MB xD
23:56 < pr-asadi> But only if I find it wih 2GB.
--- Log closed Mon May 01 00:00:11 2023