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06:54 < akik> hi, i have a question about openbsd's rc.local. systemd is probably disabling rc-local.service in some near future and i'd like to understand which services are started *after* rc.local https://man.openbsd.org/rc.local "rc.local is executed towards the end of rc (it is not the very last as there are a few services that must be started at the very end)."
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06:58 < pardis> you can find out by reading /etc/rc, which is just a shell script
06:58 < pardis> https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/etc/rc?rev=1.571&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
06:58 < pardis> everything after 'sh /etc/rc.local' comes after rc.local
06:58 < akik> pardis: ok thanks, i don't have openbsd installed anywhere
06:59 < pardis> that's why I linked the file in cvsweb
06:59 < schillingklaus> systemd on openbsd??????????????????
06:59 < akik> pardis: why are those daemons started after rc.local?
06:59 < brocashelm> !!!
06:59 < pardis> I don't know
06:59 < pardis> CVS history might tell you
06:59 < pardis> you can annotate (equivalent to git blame) the file using cvsweb if you like
06:59 < akik> schillingklaus: chill out, the question was about openbsd and its rc.local, not linux's systemd
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07:05 < akik> pardis: like this? https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/etc/rc?annotate=HEAD
07:12 < renaud> http://jdebp.info/FGA/rc.local-is-history.html
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07:13 < IcePic> this commit message perhaps: https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/etc/rc#rev1.379
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07:17 < akik> IcePic: ok so openbsd has also the concept of service/daemon dependencies? that seems to be issue with systemd that they don't want to fix when rc.local is ran
07:18 < akik> IcePic: currently in systemd, it's ran "After=network.target" which is far away from the end of the systemd target (multi-user.target or graphical.target)
07:18 < IcePic> akik: of course network daemons will have dependencies on network being available. vlans depend on physical interfaces underneath them getting up and so on
07:19 < IcePic> my gripe with systemd and running stuff late is that for any given box I will not know if multi-user or graphical targets will exist and which one will be latest so I can hang my thing after it
07:20 < IcePic> rc.local represents a very late state when almost all required things are running (where temp regulation daemon is probably not someone elses requirement and so on)
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07:21 < akik> IcePic: not currently on systemd
07:21 < IcePic> for some large non-critical disk mounts, it can be "smart" to do fsck and mount in rc.local, so that network and sshd is running even if "largedisk" fails, so I can ssh in and do things
07:22 < IcePic> instead of it being in fstab and considered "critical" so that all stuff stops when a disk acts up
07:22 < akik> IcePic: i offered this solution but i guess they didn't accept it "After=systemd-user-sessions.service" for rc-local.service
07:23 < akik> https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/27340
07:23 < IcePic> can't say what they think, but I guess they usually think "but you must know what you depend on, or you are not depending on anything and your issue is moot"
07:23 < akik> all the mounts and interfaces *should* be up already before rc.local
07:24 < akik> that's why it got started on linux (pre-systemd) as the last thing
07:25 < IcePic> yes, that is the 1970s BSD tradition more or less
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07:27 < IcePic> seems the comments on that issue sort of reflects what I thought their logic was
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07:27 < akik> IcePic: which setup doesn't have multi-user or graphical as the systemd set-default?
07:28 < IcePic> boxes without graphics stuff installed presumably do not get the graphical target, like all small linux VMs made to run containers and stuff
07:29 < renaud> Is that all really OpenBSD related? ;)
07:29 < IcePic> so if I make a daemon, I can't base my state on how my workstation runs, and then fail on headless boxes
07:29 < IcePic> ranting on systemd is always on topic. ;)
07:29 < akik> IcePic: usually if it's not graphical, then it's multi-user
07:29 < akik> renaud: this all started from my question about openbsd's rc.local
07:29 < renaud> systemd sucks, that's not something that should still b eproven
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07:30 < akik> systemd is a megalith but it has some cool features
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07:31 < akik> but i think it's trying to do too much
07:31 < renaud> and it mainly sucks because it's lead by an MS engineer who doesn't care about bugs and suffers from the NIH syndrome
07:32 < brocashelm> glad there's not even an elogind just so things like polkit and gvfs will "work"
07:32 < akik> well he just moved to ms i think this years
07:32 < akik> year
07:32 < brocashelm> on openbsd
07:32 < renaud> or he was always hired by MS just to sabotage linux
07:32 < brocashelm> can't really keep those if you remove elogind on gnu/linux systems "without" systemd in particular
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07:32 < akik> hehe
07:32 < brocashelm> part of why i'm making the transition towards openbsd, even though it's a very different os and kernel (but familiarity in unix-like)
07:33 < brocashelm> i like the simplicity of /sbin/init and rcctl much more than something like sysvinit or openrc
07:34 < renaud> as some used to say, linux is for those who hate MS, OpenBSD is for those who love unix
07:34 < pardis> s/love unix/hate systemd/
07:34 < brocashelm> linux is basically my "windows" now :)
07:34 < pardis> akik: OpenBSD does not have service dependencies in the same sense that systemd does
07:35 < brocashelm> "i couldn't run this program/game on openbsd, so i needed to use linux for that"
07:35 < pardis> the dependencies have been worked out by developers and a static boot order defined in /etc/rc that is always the same for every OpenBSD system (except package scripts, which may be reordered amongst themselves by the user)
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07:35 < pardis> there is no dynamic dependency resolution or boot order shuffling
07:36 < pardis> or systemd-esque "randomly delete dependencies to resolve a cycle"
07:36 < brocashelm> i know the ports collection is rather limited, but at least with enough perseverence, you can get a somewhat respectable personal desktop out of it that still leaves a light footprint
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07:36 < akik> i ran into this really weird bug/feature with it. if i set "After=systemd-update-utmp-runlevel.service" for rc-local.service, systemctl enable rc-local.service didn't complain about anything, the next boot just failed and i was like :o
07:36 < brocashelm> i don't know what is the protocol on requesting a port, but i tested a few linux scripts like inxi that seemed to work fine
07:36 < renaud> ports are limited? It used to be the case, but most stuff is there now
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07:37 < brocashelm> display managers, for example, no slim or lxdm, when gdm is there?
07:38 < pardis> xenodm should be good enough for anyone
07:38 < pardis> there are still some very noteworthy gaps in ports, although of course your likelihood of running into one depends on what you use a computer for
07:38 < pardis> ardour is a notable one for me
07:38 < brocashelm> agreed, but why gdm? it's gnome shit when slim and lxdm are lighter and less of a risk if i remember correctly
07:39 < pardis> gdm is requied for some features of gnome, and gnome is in ports
07:39 < brocashelm> for the retro gaming side, no pcsx2, which i think would be great
07:39 < brocashelm> i see
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07:41 < brocashelm> i prefer startx method, but xenodm isn't bad compared to other dms i've used
07:42 < brocashelm> i meant to ask this: why does kolourpaint or one of its dependencies call for pulseaudio to be installed?
07:47 < pardis> you can see for yourself what the dependency tree is with 'pkg_add -svv kolourpaint'
07:49 < pardis> the more general answer is that OpenBSD tries to provide packages that work for most users, so most build options are enabled and there are usually not "light" flavours of a package as you might find in some Linux distros
07:49 < pardis> it is best to accept that /usr/local is going to be full of junk and move on
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07:51 < akik> "junk"
07:51 < brocashelm> i noticed a lot of binaries are installed on /usr/local
07:52 < brocashelm> i guess it can be a benefit not to have so many parts of a package split into things like -dev or lib-
07:53 < brocashelm> noticed that thing myself when trying out salix, but it randomly would break
07:57 < IcePic> brocashelm: all 3rd party stuff ends up under /usr/local, to keep it separated from the base system
07:58 < IcePic> (with the exception of configs that end up under /etc)
07:59 < IcePic> brocashelm: this way, you can lose /usr/local and still have a functioning obsd system that can rebuild itself and so on
08:00 < Foxy_> brocashelm: gdm is in ports@ => x11/gnome/gdm, current version = 44.0
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08:08 < renaud> and it's great they are in /etc, as having them in /usr/local/etc sucks
08:10 < pardis> would be nice if there were sysmerge functionality for pkg_add, though
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08:13 < lavaball> in the openbsd book, there is a chapter about building from source. is that still accurate?
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09:50 < eoli3n> is there any documentation to explain how to setup proxyarp on openbsd ?
09:50 < eoli3n> (hi)
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09:54 < IcePic> eoli3n: dynamic or fixed?
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11:00 < brocashelm> pardis: finally got around to it and checked the kolourpaint-installs-pulseaudio issue: it's due to qtmultimedia
11:01 < brocashelm> if i have to have the pulseaudio package installed, fine, but i really do not want it to run, and prefer to default to sndio
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12:20 < oldlaptop> brocashelm: It's more appropriate to think of pulseaudio as a compatibility shim, for programs that do not support sndio. (Not all do so upstream, and the OpenBSD porters can't supply and maintain patches for every single one of them.)
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13:02 < Voyager_MP> duplicate IP address 10.192.20.2 sent from ethernet address 00:00:5e:00:01:02 arp: attempt to overwrite permanent entry for 10.192.20.2 by 00:00:5e:00:01:02 on vlan4020 
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13:03 < Voyager_MP> I get this when I setup a carp on vlan4020
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13:04 < Voyager_MP> FW-B: inet 10.192.20.2 255.255.255.0 10.192.20.255 vhid 2 carpdev vlan4020 pass blabal group HA advbase 1 advskew 100 
13:04 < Voyager_MP> FW-A: inet 10.192.20.2 255.255.255.0 10.192.20.255 vhid 2 carpdev vlan4020 pass blabal group HA advbase 1 advskew 0
13:04 < Voyager_MP> what am I doing wrong ? 
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13:11 < IcePic> Voyager_MP: are both master at the same time?
13:12 < IcePic> is there some other entity on that network with that mac, or that ip?
13:13 < IcePic> not that it matters here, but we used to let the "real" ips of the interfaces have the wide netmask, and have the carps use a /32 netmask, since those were mostly used for replying, not sending traffic
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13:14 < IcePic> since the slave can't send when it is down, setting the carps to /32 and the non-shared ips to the wider (/24?) netmask means that locally generated traffic on the nodes will exit from the "real" ip and not the carp ip 
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13:33 < Voyager_MP> Ok changed that to a /32 but the issue remains 
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13:33 < Voyager_MP> i notice that all carp devices have the same mac, is this right ? 
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13:35 < IcePic> that is exactly how they are supposed to work, same mac and same ip
13:35 < brocashelm> anyone getting this error when launching supertuxkart?
13:35 < brocashelm> [error  ] FontManager: Something wrong when loading a glyph! The error code was 7.
13:35 < brocashelm> [error  ] FontManager: /usr/local/share/supertuxkart/data/ttf/NotoColorEmoji.ttf doesn't have color, ignored.
13:35 < Voyager_MP> can the issue be on the vlan switch from the provider ? 
13:36 < IcePic> Voyager_MP: if the vendor uses VRRP and took the same mac it would be bad, or if some device on the provider end has the same ip
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13:37 < IcePic> are you using other carp pairs with same vhid, perhaps on not-vlan4020 ?
13:38 < Voyager_MP> it seems to me arp related, when I denote on carp it takes 2-5 min, and suddently the mtr goes pass the carp fw 
13:38 < IcePic> if the switch has some kind of "mac security" thing that locks a mac to a specific port, then it would be bad
13:38 < Voyager_MP> no on vlan4010 there is vhid 1 and on vlan4020 is vhid2
13:40 < Voyager_MP> im having this issues in several networks, not only with one provider, even in local rz with cisco infra 
13:40 < Voyager_MP> never really got carp to work
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13:42 < IcePic> a quick test could be to stick a stupid netgear switch on one port, then set the two carp boxes in that simple switch. If it starts working then, the switches are "too smart" for arp tricks to work on them
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13:45 < Voyager_MP> is there an alternative ? 
13:46 < Voyager_MP> I mean if the switches are the problem 
13:46 < Voyager_MP> mpath routing would work in combination with nat 
13:46 < IcePic> I'm sure someone who knows them well can turn off things
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13:47 < IcePic> mpath and nat are not working at the same level, so not really related
13:47 < Voyager_MP> If I push 2 default routes, unix systems work 
13:47 < Voyager_MP> windows does not 
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17:12 < n4dir> disklabel sd5; gives:   j:       2861459.0M            33024   MSDOS
17:12 < n4dir> but if i: ROOT# mount /dev/sd5j /mnt/disk/
17:13 < n4dir> it says: mount_msdos: /dev/sd5j on /mnt/disk: not an MSDOS filesystem
17:13 < pardis> MSDOS is just the partition type
17:13 < pardis> it may not actually be formatted that way
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17:20 < n4dir> what would be a good filesystem on an external disk, so i can easily mount it from OpenBSD ?
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17:24 < thrig> newfs. otherwise, newfs_msdos
17:25 < rsjw> newfs isn't a file system though
17:25 < thrig> there be man pages to read though
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17:29 < Foxy_> n4dir: ext4 or NTFS, depends on original system
17:29 < pardis> ext4 cannot be mounted read-write on OpenBSD at all, ntfs requires a package to do so
17:31 < n4dir> Foxy_: hm. Some partitions should sure be ext4, if i "mount_ext2fs /dev/* /mnt", they all say "read only filesystem"
17:31 < pardis> that is expected
17:32 < n4dir> seems easier to rsync the music. 
17:33 < rsjw> so it's network-accessible already?
17:33 < n4dir> yes. But i didn't check ssh yet
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17:36 < n4dir> i can mount the usb-stick just fine, if in doubt i will use that filesystem
17:42 < n4dir> yup, after fiddling for a while with mounting rsync works right away and it running. 
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18:49 < messngaumin> Sex in a Minecraft world? It is more than possible! Read the spellbinding tale of Justin Bieber, Mariah Carey, and an English teacher from Regina who meet up, have a threesome, and even make hot pockets!  The Minecraft pigs oink with pleasure as they watch the orgy from their pigsty!  Read all about it today! https://justpaste.it/MariahCareyMinecraftALHotPocket
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18:52 -!- mode/#openbsd [+o oldlaptop] by ChanServ
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18:52 <@oldlaptop> Oh, okay.
18:52 -!- mode/#openbsd [-b $a:messngaumin] by oldlaptop
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18:52 < jcs> wait let's hear him out
18:52 < oldlaptop> (was wondering where the kline was)
18:52 < thrig> if it's a web link, it's probably terrible
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21:44 < PyR3X> I want to change a line in the /usr/src/distrib/miniroot/install.sub and build a new bsd.rd to test a change for the autoinstall. I tried going to /usr/src/distrib/amd64 and running 'make' but it failed with ld: error: unable to find library -lstubs
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22:02 < PyR3X> actually from 'cd /usr/src/distrib/amd64/ramdisk_cd && make' I get "ld: error: undefined hidden symbol: RSA_padding_check_X931"
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22:34 < PyR3X> nevermind I needed to follow release(8) to build the RAMDISK
22:34 < thrig> Smithers, release the mans
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22:35 < PyR3X> some old guides online showed you could build it that way but that no longer seems to be the case
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22:53 < PyR3X> alright I'm a bit stumped how do I build a custom install ramdisk with a changed 'install.sub' file?
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23:02 < pardis> if you're just trying to test a change, it's probably easier to boot a stock bsd.rd and edit/copy your changes into place
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23:08 -!- Xenguy [~Xenguy@user/xenguy] has joined #openbsd
23:10 -!- BillyZane2 is now known as BillyZane
23:10 -!- _yella_ [regg@user/yella] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
23:14 -!- Tekk__ [~tekk@024-216-148-240.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:17 < PyR3X> pardis: what do you mean?
23:17 -!- eschaton [~eschaton@li541-49.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:20 -!- xet7 [~xet7@user/xet7] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
23:31 -!- SexWarrior [~DankFrank@188.213.136.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:32 -!- yella [regg@2607:fb90:b761:cdb6:b524:a050:6136:b372] has joined #openbsd
23:32 -!- yella [regg@2607:fb90:b761:cdb6:b524:a050:6136:b372] has quit [Changing host]
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23:36 -!- format_c [~format_c@2a02:b98:f181:4094:f550:7488:2d5:5ffa] has quit [Quit: format_c]
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23:52 -!- demouser96 [~demouser@ip-109-42-113-51.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Quit: Connection closed]
--- Log closed Sat May 06 00:00:18 2023