--- Log opened Sun May 14 00:00:30 2023
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01:01 < n4dir> to get a KDE Desktop Environment i would install "pkg_add kde" ?
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01:15 < thrig> pkg_info kde | grep meta
01:15 < thrig> how facebook is involved I have no idea, but I don't use kde, so
01:16 < a1fa> oOo
01:16 < a1fa> kde3, no
01:16 < n4dir> facebook?
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01:17 < thrig> "Meta (formerly the Facebook company) builds technologies that help advertisers maximize revenue for meta and blah blah
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01:18 < n4dir> lol
01:18 < thrig> liberties may have been taken with their mission statement
01:20 < n4dir> i looked at pkg_info -Q kde, after searching for kde; then i looked at pkg_mgr, there found plasma too, there oxygen, then i was unsure if "pkg_add kde" would suffice
01:22 < n4dir> also i searched for what i need in .xsession. I found nothing for OpenBSD, only an arch-linux wiki entry, which says i'd also need to export DESKTOP_SESSION. I will see if that works, but if someone knows, i can safe a bit of fiddling
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01:25 < thrig> maybe kde ships with a pkg-readme files
01:25 < n4dir> will try, thanks
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01:32 < n4dir> just seeing that "kde" will also install fluidsynth. Wondering what might be the reason for that :-)
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01:38 < fro> something depends on it obviously
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04:54 < corigins> How are you guys relaying emails, opensmtpd relay or relayd tcp protocol?
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07:24 < MelMalik> The Xorg foundation has abandoned their child the Xorg server. The torch is yours now
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07:36 < brocashelm> really? i thought it was just red hat fuckery
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07:36 < pony> nice now Wayland can crash on everything
07:37 < brocashelm> red hat and asahi
07:37 < brocashelm> https://www.phoronix.com/news/Asahi-Linux-Stop-X.Org
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07:39 < brocashelm> ever since installing/using openbsd, i've kinda stopped the whole "gnu/linux" thing and just say linux :D
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07:42 < MelMalik> brocashelm: Nope. It's Xorg foundation policy to work only on Wayland now.
07:42 < brocashelm> got a link?
07:43 < brocashelm> all my systems (linux included) are wayland-free and work just fine without it
07:43 < MelMalik> work as in do new things to
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10:02 < Mozies> I have installed OpenBSD & following the afterboot man page configured ntpd, what command do I run to get ntp to adjust my system date? In /var/log/daemon I see 'ntpd: adjusting local clock by -28590.487837s' but the time displayed by the 'date' command never changes.
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10:07 < ivdsangen> iirc ntpd only makes small adjustments, it works well when you set the date once using date -s
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10:10 < rsadowski> Mozies: just run: rdate time.cloudflare.com
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10:16 < Mozies> Thanks ivdsangen & rsadowski, I now see 'ntpd: clock is now synced'.
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16:42 < jfsimon1981> Hi, do you know how to reload/restart the audio driver ?
16:43 < jfsimon1981> It seems sound driver has crashed
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16:54 < n4dir> for the life of me i can't figure out how to start kde/plasma after installing kde. What to put in .xsession
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17:02 < jmcunx> n4dir: I do not know, but maybe it is documented in /usr/local/share/doc/pkg-readmes
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17:03 < jmcunx> jsing: guessing but maybe "rcctl restart sndiod"
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17:04 < n4dir> "pkg-readmes" is a general word, or is that the exact filename?
17:05 < jmcunx> that is dir. maybe there is a kde or kwin dir under it
17:06 < n4dir> jmcunx: will try. I did also locate kde | grep readme; and what not, but had no results. I will try the path you gave me later. Thanks
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17:07 < n4dir> also nearly no web results, i assume it is not widely used?
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17:11 < Zyxer> n4dir: startkde
17:13 < Zyxer> I think. Or was it plasma-desktop?
17:14 < Zyxer> or startplasma-x11
17:14 < n4dir> Zyxer: startkde doesn't exist as a bin, neither startplasma. Both commands, not exactly, similar, were given by the Web
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17:15 < n4dir> locate kde | grep bin; locate plasma | grep bin; so on, so on, i found nothing
17:15 < Zyxer> From root?
17:16 < n4dir> if i ran those "locate" commands as root? I don't really remember.
17:16 < n4dir> let me start the other PC
17:16 < thrig> the locate database is updated weekly, or less. maybe use better tools, like pkg_info -L or pkglocate?
17:16 < Zyxer> I usually do "du -a / | grep -i kde" or any other bin
17:17 < Zyxer> n4dir: I meant... Nevermind I was thinking of another command not locate.
17:18 < n4dir> thrig: i updated locate database before using it, hopefully correct /usr/libexec/locate.updatedb
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17:18 < n4dir> thrig: for pkg_info -L; i would need to use which command i look for, no?
17:18 < Zyxer> You tried startplasma-x11
17:18 < thrig> huh?
17:21 < Zyxer> pkg_info -L kde; should work if the package is called kde. Should list all files that come with it.
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17:24 < n4dir> pkg_info -L kde; gives "Files: ... " empty. Nothing listed
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17:24 < n4dir> there is no /usr/local/share/doc/pkg-readmes/*someting_kde* besides kdeconnect
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17:26 < n4dir> Zyxer: also i did all i could think of to find something which contains plasma, kde, start, session, perhaps even more
17:26 < n4dir> with locate, with command-autocompletion.
17:27 < pardis> there is no kde plasm
17:27 < pardis> a
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17:29 < Zyxer> n4dir: I may have completely missunderstood you. Did you not already install kde but now ask how to start it?
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17:29 < n4dir> Zyxer: yes
17:29 < Zyxer> pardis: what do you mean there is no kde plasma?
17:29 < n4dir> "pkg_add kde"; then tried to find what to put in .xsession, by all i said.
17:30 < pardis> I mean that kde plasma is not available on OpenBSD
17:30 < Zyxer> I guess that answers the question.
17:31 < n4dir> pardis: so i got all the kde apps installed, but no DE at all, right?
17:31 < pardis> not unless you installed another one, no
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17:32 < n4dir> thank you.
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17:33 < Zyxer> Omg I have web browser open, this weechat through ssh server, and it is using 91MB RAM. This is a reduction of almost 70MB RAM usage, almost halved RAM usage, just by reapplying thermal paste. Or well that is the only difference I can think of
17:34 < archpc> That's... not how it works Zyxer
17:34 < thrig> thermal paste improves wifi speeds, as everyone should know by now
17:34 -!- Leopold_ [~quassel@23.137.249.65] has quit []
17:34 < Zyxer> You sure a CPU overheating wouldn't compensate by using more RAM?
17:34 < archpc> Yes
17:35 < Zyxer> I mean if it can't do computations fast would it not stack them in RAM?
17:35 < Zyxer> Ok
17:35 < Zyxer> I am on 20+ year old hardware
17:35 < Zyxer> I think it is RISC based, PowerPC, only passive cooling
17:35 * archpc is in an M2 MacBook Pro
17:36 < Zyxer> iMac G3
17:36 < pony> archpc: ru
17:36 < pony> nning ope
17:36 < pony> nbsd
17:36 < archpc> no
17:36 < pony> wtf
17:36 < archpc> My firewall is
17:37 < pony> ok
17:37 < Zyxer> I am running OpenBSD on all my devices. Desktop (the iMac G3), router, laptop.
17:37 < pony> sorry return key on my phone
17:37 < archpc> Lol, it's okay
17:37 < pony> xD
17:38 < Zyxer> wait I lied, not openBSD on phone. Isn't OpenBSD comming to pinephone pro soon?
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17:38 * archpc looks at his Mach-based iPhone
17:38 < archpc> They're... distant cousins right
17:39 < Zyxer> MacOS is based on FreeBSD. No idea about iOS
17:39 < thrig> Apple did leave a bunch of OpenBSD CVS tags across /etc and elsewhere
17:39 < archpc> ^
17:39 < pardis> Darwin (the basis for macOS and iOS) is based on both Mach and FreeBSD
17:39 < Zyxer> lmao
17:39 < archpc> Very, very distant cousins
17:40 < pardis> both of which are technically related to OpenBSD, in the same way that the British royal family is related to German nobility
17:40 < archpc> Ah yes, OS inbreeding
17:41 < n4dir> fun fact: i just heard that the british royal family indeed is close to german nobility, tradionally. Probably wrong, but that is what i heard
17:41 < Zyxer> PowerPC is open source now. I need to start getting used to javascript free pages. Need to find them. Anyone knows of any portal or old school forums ?
17:42 < thrig> gopher, gemini...
17:42 < Zyxer> I don't trust search engines (pitch engine is more descriptive) to fetch me any good portal or javascript free page.
17:42 < archpc> I very very remember gopher
17:42 < archpc> faintly*
17:42 < archpc> I dropped a word
17:43 < Zyxer> What is gemini? I am going to look into gopher. Unsure if dillo supports it
17:43 < n4dir> perhaps one of the cli web-browsers, else there are clients, i don't know if on OpenBSD
17:44 < pony> amfora is a nice Gemini client
17:46 < quinq> For gopher, there's at least sacc
17:46 < thrig> w3m (my main browser) does gopher
17:46 < n4dir> Zyxer: there is also netsurf-gtk, it won't help with the javascript problem, as far i can tell, but i like it on old hardware
17:50 < Zyxer> I don't want javascript running on my machine
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17:50 < Zyxer> Javascript has security issues
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17:50 < n4dir> then let me put it the other way around: netsurf will also help with avoiding javascript.
17:51 < Zyxer> I didn't sell gamer Ryzen RX 5700XT gaming PC to buy an iMac G3 just to reintroduce backdoors and security flaws that I tried to get away from
17:51 < Zyxer> Netsurf doesn't support Javascript? I'm sold
17:51 < n4dir> I think it has a setting to enable it, but it doesn't work. So out of box: no javascript.
17:51 < Zyxer> Does w3m support javascript?
17:51 < Zyxer> Nice.
17:52 < n4dir> i doubt any of the text-based web-browsers support javascript
17:53 < Zyxer> Ok I only know of lynx but it is like, 2 years since last update. Makes me a bit uncomfortable. I know it probably doesn't need as much updating, but no need for security patches for 2 years?
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17:53 < Zyxer> Netsurf did support gopher right?
17:54 < n4dir> No.
17:54 * archpc sighs
17:54 < pardis> downloading and running random code from untrusted sources has security issues no matter what language it's written in
17:54 < pardis> it just so happens that that is the primary function of most javascript engines
17:54 < thrig> if only you could apply pledge and unveil to lock down what a browser could do
17:55 < n4dir> For text based browsers there is lynx, w3m, links, elinks, perhaps more. Someone said w3m would support gopher. I said there are clients for gopher too.
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17:55 < archpc> Also, you're using an ANCIENT CPU with almost-guaranteed hardware and/or security issues
17:55 < Zyxer> Oh, thanks for the list!
17:56 < Zyxer> archpc: It has security issues for physical access. There is no intel management engine or such hardware backdoors that are made to be as hard as possible to patch
17:57 < archpc> Understandable actualy
17:57 < n4dir> Zyxer: netsurf i only mentioned as you mentioned dillo. Both are comparable easy on ressources.
17:58 < Zyxer> Remote backdoor is my worry, if they can use a chip to make a hardware backdoor well, if they get access to the PC at worst it will just be more expensive to insert backdoor on newer hardware, if needed. So maybe it is easier to mess with if you have physical access.
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17:58 < Zyxer> n4dir: oh, thanks! I appreciate learning about the lightweigh software. Never know if needed in future incase dillo dies for some reason
18:01 < n4dir> whenever i decide to give heavier software a try, it goes south. See above, my idea to try kde/plasma again. Won't do it the next 2 years again, if guess. :-)
18:02 < Zyxer> I can't run st and I haven't asked about that because I can't grab the error. I tried adding > /path/to/custom/log but it ends up empty. I don't know how to copy buffer or from terminal. Not sure if it is powerPC related or openBSD but ctrl+shift+c doesn't copy from terminal what is marked.
18:02 < Zyxer> Anyone know how I can grab the output?
18:03 < quinq> You can select it with your pointer (mouse)
18:04 < quinq> But error messages would be printed to stderr, which > doesn't redirect (that's for stdout)
18:04 < quinq> And > is actually 1>, if you want to redirect stderr (2), you need 2>
18:04 < Zyxer> Yea I can select but not copy or anything. There is no rightclick on old iMac either
18:05 < Zyxer> but thanks! I'll try the 2>
18:05 < quinq> You don't need right click, just select
18:05 < quinq> And paste with “middle” click
18:06 < quinq> (or Ctrl+Shift+y)
18:07 < Zyxer> https://clbin.com/9y3jr
18:07 < Zyxer> Thanks, I forgot about middleclick..... I tried enter and ctrl+shift+c and all other but forgot about middle.. T-T
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19:08 < Zyxer> LMAO this is so stupid. Old iMac G3 can't handle com port through USB so I have to connect router to server, ssh into server, then cu to the router.
19:10 * oldlaptop would want a three-button mouse with an old mac, authenticity aside
19:10 < oldlaptop> Domn
19:10 < oldlaptop> *Don't see why it couldn't "handle com port through USB"?
19:11 < Zyxer> Neither do I. But it just hangs the terminal and not even ~+. exits it. I have to close terminal
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19:12 < oldlaptop> /Probably/ more likely to be the adapter's fault than the mac's(?)
19:12 < oldlaptop> n4dir: Plasma went away when KDE4 did. The maintainer has been experimenting with plasma5, it may very well come back someday. (But not today.)
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19:14 < pardis> there is a waiting list for plasma transfusion
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19:16 < oldlaptop> see e.g. https://www.sizeofvoid.org/posts/2022-26-12-openbsd-kde-status-report-2022/ (which has some appropriate pointers as well)
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19:17 < xtile> Belatedly, edbrowse is a text-based web browser that supports JS but I haven't used it enough to say how well it supports it.
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19:19 < n4dir> oldlaptop: thanks for the info. the web results were not too clear
19:20 < oldlaptop> In the meantime I would suggest lxqt. (There's also lumina; I dislike it, but maybe you won't.)
19:22 < xtile> I use Lumina: it's passable but I might switch to KDE at some point, since a few bugs occasionally annoy me just a little, and I wouldn't know how to fix them myself, and the last time Lumina had *any* commit of any sort was July 2022
19:22 < n4dir> oldlaptop: i didn't really search for a replacement for my actual WM. I mainly wanted to look at kde, i still call it just kde. Just as i had a quick look at lumina, looks good to me :-).
19:22 < n4dir> well, i looked at kde in a qemu session, but wanted to look at it on real hardware.
19:22 < xtile> Lumina is definitely usable, I've been using it for a few years on my FreeBSD desktop. (I use OpenBSD on my server)
19:23 < n4dir> from what i have seen i can surely agree. Very nice
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19:53 < Zyxer> Is it pf or hostname.interface that I should edit to block all traffic? Like, I have a router, 3 active interfaces, 1 for WAN, 1 for router to connect wifi and other personal devices, and 1 for server. I want server to be blocked from trying to access any device on the network (in practice just block it from talking to one interface), but I want to be able to control it from my personal devices on
19:53 < Zyxer> other interface.
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20:26 < coreystephanphd> Working on my BSDCan talk. Want to run 1 sub-(sub-)idea by folks here before presenting it for the world. Since modern Web browsers, office suites, etc. effectively require login.conf (normally for 'staff') and sysctl.conf (esp. kern.maxproc and kern.maxthread, also others) value increases, might it be time to open an outside-the-box chat about introducing a new default class called e.g.
20:26 < coreystephanphd> 'desktop' that is recommended in FAQ and/or installer and already does some of that work? Everything else is automated and balanced, of course.
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20:37 < fro> ask on misc@
20:37 < sibiria> seems like a reasonable idea to me
20:38 < sibiria> almost every week someone asks here about help regarding memory problems with e.g. firefox because of login.conf's small default almost
20:38 < sibiria> -almost
20:39 < fro> still not the right place to ask for or to propose changes
20:39 < coreystephanphd> sibiria: That is probably all that I needed to read to include it as a sub-(sub-)point in my talk. The talk is about getting people thinking.
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20:39 < fro> you needed one random person on irc to say they like your idea?
20:40 < fro> hilarious
20:40 < sibiria> maybe all the random users who come in here on a weekly basis?
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20:40 < coreystephanphd> fro: Right. What sibiria said. And it is about getting people thinking. Not asking for or proposing a change. Thinking through things.
20:41 < fro> so getting people thinking about a change you want to happen then?
20:41 < coreystephanphd> But if a new user experience is just about universal, then it merits discussion.
20:42 < fro> i don't see how any of this confirms that something is universal
20:42 < fro> but okay
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20:45 < coreystephanphd> fro: Lots of anecdotal evidence. Even OpenBSD developer blogs point to the default resource allocations just not working for 2023 daily desktop applications. But anyway, again, this is a very small thing. I just needed to get it out of my own headspace and into a chat room. The fact that someone immediately said that it sounded reasonable and someone else drew it into question also points to it
20:45 < coreystephanphd> being worthwhile to talk about such things inside a talk about professional desktop workflows.
20:46 < fro> i see so you were looking for ancedotes then
20:46 < coreystephanphd> fro: Contrarianism is fine, but I still ask you to listen to the talk on Saturday :)
20:47 < fro> hard pass
20:47 < fro> you know how i feel about you regardless of what your talk is about
20:47 < xtile> coreystephanphd: what's the talk called?
20:47 < xtile> is there a link to like, the synopsis or announcement
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20:48 < coreystephanphd> xtile: https://www.bsdcan.org/events/bsdcan_2023/schedule/session/118-bsd-for-researching-writing-and-teaching-in-the-liberal-arts/
20:48 < coreystephanphd> Cheers, folks :)
20:48 < xtile> Thanks!
20:48 < coreystephanphd> sibiria: Thanks again :) xtile : NP :)
20:48 < xse> for a contrarian point i recall those setting being dependent on ressources like RAM and so on
20:50 < coreystephanphd> xse: Right. Not universal.
20:51 < Zyxer> No one will be more honest than a stranger on the internet. The more you get to know ppl the more likely they are to be biased in some way. Isn't necessarily a bad thing and doesn't always happen.
20:52 < fro> yeah if you're looking for uninformed opinions the internet definitely has that in sapdes
20:54 < sibiria> this instance wasn't particularly uninformed. i spend time in this channel every day helping users. i know this is a common caveat from experience, not from imagining it
20:54 < coreystephanphd> sibiria: +1 :)
20:54 < xtile> i don't see any reason to not talk about OpenBSD in an OpenBSD IRC channel
20:55 < fro> not really the point of what i said
20:55 < Zyxer> Well your point is not relevant in this case then.
20:56 < fro> yeah it's not like you're missing it or anything
20:58 < Zyxer> First time I heard of bsdcan
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21:01 < coreystephanphd> Zyxer: All the BSDCan talks from at least the past decade are on the official BSDCan YT channel. Really great resources. I am just hoping to contribute 1 small, small bit.
21:01 < Zyxer> Damn, the bsdcan website is good. And no javascript and most pages with color is displayed badly on my screen, so usually text is unreadable, but bsdcan looks good despite my minimal setup with no JS and CRT screen
21:02 < Zyxer> coreystephanphd: Nice! I think I must have seen some stuff from there without knowing or noticing the channel name or so.
21:03 < Zyxer> But I am unsure if my "new" setup even can stream todays youtube
21:04 < Zyxer> Is bsdcan streamed live?
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21:51 < coreystephanphd> Zyxer: I think that depends on who is there and with what hardware and software, but this will be my first time going. Like most professional and other conferences, this will be the first time in-person for several years.
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23:34 < brocashelm> hooray for diversity and inclusion! https://www.phoronix.com/news/xfwm4-wayland-May-2023
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--- Log closed Mon May 15 00:00:31 2023