--- Log opened Sat May 20 00:00:38 2023
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00:59 < dieg0fcs> hi guys, im have a problem with a broadcom bcm4313 on openbsd. Has anyone been able to work it?
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05:46 < housemate> hi
05:46 < housemate> Delete older packages first ? [y/N/a]
05:47 < housemate> /dev/sd0f on /usr: 381844204 bytes (missing 499138 blocks)
05:47 < housemate> what will this remove if I choose 'yes'?
06:13 < housemate> okay ...
06:13 < housemate> lol
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06:51 < housemate> nevermind, rofl.
06:51 < housemate> I just winged it.
06:51 < housemate> aha
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07:03 < renaud> sibiria: I have the same crash as with the install kernel
07:03 < renaud> uvm_fault(0xffffffff82485838, 0x8, 0, 1) -> e
07:03 < renaud> kernel: page fault trap, code=0
07:03 < renaud> Stopped at vioscsi_req_done+0x26: movl 0x8(%r15),%ebx
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07:06 < renaud> I might have to search a little bit more
07:07 < renaud> but console seems to be 115200 com0
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07:19 < housemate> hi where's lsof on this platform?
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07:19 < houseHORSE> hi
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07:26 < quinq> houseHORSE, there's fstat
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08:29 < finkfox> with openbsd -stable, within xfce4, in firefox-esr 102.11, in the file selector for uploading a file, I only see a bookmark for "Desktop". Trying to add a bookmark to "~/Downloads" (one of the paths allowed by default unveil), the bookmark will not stick when reopening the file selector.
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08:30 < finkfox> with openbsd -current, without xfc4, same firefox version, I see the "Downloads" bookmark.
08:30 < finkfox> anybody know how/where this can be configured?
08:31 < finkfox> somewhere in the firefox about:config? or even an xfce4 setting? or xdg related?
08:33 < finkfox> I did try to set XDG_DOWNLOAD_DIR= without success
08:36 < finkfox> will try this https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/XDG_user_directories
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08:57 < finkfox> that helped.
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09:46 < rk4> I've long been using an adapted www.openbsd.org/faq/pf/example1.html to provide NATed internet to two seperate lans. I'd like the lans to be as strongly seperated as is viable on home internet, ideally i'd just get two connections but am trying to make do with one. consequently i've tried to block traffic between the two lans in pf, which i think works. but i'm wondering if i'm overlooking anything -
09:46 < rk4> opinions welcome - i've tried to annotate it to make my major modifications obvious - https://paste.debian.net/plainh/dfae8831a
09:50 < rk4> [kind of a boring question...i did consider https://www.openbsd.org/support.html ...but I didn't think many companies would be all that interested in 1-5 minutes work as a once off hehe]
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10:36 < sibiria> renaud: would you like the dmesg of my machine to see if maybe you can spot some config difference?
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12:02 < shiranaihito_> hello :) How do i make mounting a disk "permanent"? Is there a way to have the "mount" command automatically update "fstab" or something?
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12:11 < sibiria> you add the file system entry manually to the fstab
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12:27 < shiranaihito_> sibiria so i would call "mount" to see the entry and copy paste it to fstab?
12:28 < shiranaihito_> hmhm oh.. well, i guess that's not quite it
12:28 < sibiria> cat /etc/fstab
12:28 < shiranaihito_> i have no idea what i did last time.. but i managed to have a couple of disks persistently mounted for some time, until i had to reinstall everything
12:28 < sibiria> the format more or less explains itself
12:29 < shiranaihito_> yep
12:29 < shiranaihito_> it just bugs me that i don't remember needing to do that before.. but maybe i did
12:29 < househorse> good day.
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12:29 < sibiria> in most cases you will be ok with an entry along the lines of: DUID.x /somepath ffs rw,nodev,nosuid 1 2
12:29 < shiranaihito_> g'day
12:30 < househorse> what packages are these a-part of on openbsd?
12:30 < househorse> 1. `apt install python3`
12:30 < househorse> 2. `apt install python3-pycurl`
12:30 < househorse> 3. `apt install python3-pip`
12:30 < sibiria> hi, househorse
12:30 < househorse> hi sibiria
12:30 < sibiria> aka housemate, aka mysterious man of australia
12:30 < shiranaihito_> househorse you can try something like "pkg_info -Q python3" to search for python packages
12:32 < sibiria> househorse: most python modules in the openbsd repo are named py-blah or py3-blah for python3 equiv
12:32 < househorse> shiranaihito_, I did.
12:33 < househorse> I see, thanks, sibiria
12:33 < sibiria> without looking, there probably is py3-pip and py3-pycurl or py3-curl
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12:36 < sibiria> shiranaihito_: and, if you need to locate the DUID and partitions of interest on a drive, one way to get these is "disklabel -n sdX" (as root)
12:36 < sibiria> should spit out the drive's DUID and a list of the file systems
12:36 < shiranaihito_> sibiria thanks, i was just wondering about that :P
12:36 < shiranaihito_> why is this simple stuff so complicated though?
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12:37 < shiranaihito_> IIRC "lsblk" on Linux would show all the information that needs to be gathered with 2 - 3 separate more or less obscure commands on OpenBSD
12:37 < sibiria> i suppose someone felt there's some sensitive aspect to a local user being able to reveal file system layout
12:38 < shiranaihito_> sibiria my guess is that the devs just haven't thought this through and/or cared enough about useability
12:38 < sibiria> it's a little bit about that, too
12:38 < sibiria> higher priorities etc.
12:39 < shiranaihito_> well yeah.. but OpenBSD is supposed to be the sensible, "grown-up" unix, right? :P
12:39 < shiranaihito_> goofy Linux people just keep goofing everything up.. and OpenBSD stays non-goofy.. ? :)
12:39 < sibiria> i feel it is, in most ways, but its down-to-earth barebones-y approach also comes with some tradeoffs of course
12:39 < shiranaihito_> AFAIK that's how it's supposed to be
12:41 < sibiria> it's a simpler *nix. fewer levers and buttons, sometimes less convenience
12:41 < shiranaihito_> sibiria what are the "1" and "2" at the end of fstab lines?
12:42 < shiranaihito_> and do i need to set "nodev" and "nosuid" for the disks i'm adding?
12:43 < sibiria> those are fs_freq (?) and fs_passno, which determine backup and filesystem consistency check behavior
12:43 < sibiria> you don't NEED to, but i recommend it if it's a general storage device
12:44 < shiranaihito_> sibiria so basically "undocumented black magic" to any non-sysadmin user? :)
12:44 < sibiria> no, it's all in "man fstab" :)
12:44 < shiranaihito_> pfff.. :p
12:44 < sibiria> nodev means the file system may not house device nodes
12:44 < sibiria> nosuid means it may not use the "setuid" feature
12:45 < sibiria> these two, the latter in particular, have some security implications
12:48 < shiranaihito_> "house device"?
12:48 < sibiria> may not contain*
12:48 < sibiria> "to house someone/something"
12:48 < shiranaihito_> "Absolute OpenBSD" recommended using the "softdep" option too btw, so i guess i'll add that to the fstab lines
12:49 < shiranaihito_> oh, right :p
12:49 < sibiria> softdep will make things a bit faster if you have lots of write activity on that file system. it does come with some risks
12:49 < shiranaihito_> hhmm.. well i don't even know what "a filesystem containing device nodes" implies
12:49 < shiranaihito_> sibiria wasn't it supposed to help with integrity though?
12:49 < sibiria> you may be familiar with e.g. /dev/null, /dev/zero, /dev/sd0 and such. these are device nodes
12:50 < shiranaihito_> yep?
12:50 < sibiria> they have intricate links to kernel/hardware function. they are special file system items
12:50 < shiranaihito_> mmm
12:50 < sibiria> it's recommended to isolate this capacity some specific location only instead of allowing device nodes to be created anywhere
12:50 < sibiria> that's what nodev does
12:50 < shiranaihito_> alright :)
12:51 < shiranaihito_> but what's the verdict on "softdep"? is Absolute OpenBSD wrong? :P
12:51 < shiranaihito_> (to recommend it)
12:51 < sibiria> softdep doesn't really help with integrity in that sense. it caches/delays certain file system updates in order to write them all in one go
12:51 < shiranaihito_> ok
12:52 < sibiria> if your system crashes, there's a high chance that a very busy file system with softdep will see files gone missing
12:52 < shiranaihito_> well, then it was not a great recommendation, it seems
12:52 < sibiria> pros and cons
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12:52 < sibiria> if such a crash happens, just before the changes are flushed to disk, what usually happens is that all newly created files from the past few minutes have disappeared, and instead end up in the lost+found dir
12:53 < shiranaihito_> i see :)
12:54 < sibiria> the FFS file system is a slow performer. softdep is an old way of trying to improve a bit of that. i personally only use it on very busy file systems where i can also accept some small loss if an accident happens
12:54 < shiranaihito_> btw, have you noticed a decline in the number of "people who know how things work" over the years? :)
12:55 < shiranaihito_> AFAIK these days everyone just wants to invoke some AWS/Google magic and have things run
12:55 < shiranaihito_> or Docker or whatever
12:55 < shiranaihito_> it's very sad
12:55 < sibiria> or people turn into to refined experts, knowing more and more about less and less until they know everything about just one single thing
12:55 < shiranaihito_> yeah, maybe that too
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12:56 < shiranaihito_> i've been a (web) developer for ages, but never got into the sysadmin side of things
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12:56 < shiranaihito_> but i bet even i know a lot more about how things work than your average 25 year old developer these days
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12:57 < shiranaihito_> i'm too old and grumpy to have been swept away by the Docker/"serverless"/BigTech craziness
12:58 < sibiria> part of that comes from the peril of the Internet. anyone can throw themselves into practically any topic and pick up on it without necessarily having to start from the bottom
12:58 < sibiria> great in one way, may leave a spotty result in another way
12:59 < shiranaihito_> sure, but people usually just want the shortcuts to making whatever happen
12:59 < sibiria> it's why we have fantastic python programmers these days, who don't know that a CPU doesn't really know how to print text or draw window frames etc.
12:59 < shiranaihito_> so "copy paste this YAML file and run Docker"
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13:00 < shiranaihito_> yep, i guess :p
13:00 < sibiria> i got errands to do, i wish you good luck with your openbsd project/experience :)
13:00 < shiranaihito_> but hey.. if they're actually fantastic programmers, maybe there's no problem :)
13:00 < shiranaihito_> thanks :)
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13:32 < bsandro> I've tried this 'python' thing, looks like esoteric programming language like Whitespace to me :D
13:32 < bsandro> since your script logic is affected by the amount of spaces/tabs you put there...
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13:42 < oldlaptop> bsandro: Except whatever you would be doing anyway in C/etc. is what it wants anyway
13:42 < oldlaptop> (as a general rule)
13:43 * oldlaptop dislikes python generally, but has never really bought the indentation-is-significant objection
13:43 < flaxarn> Pythons context sensitive based only on the white space is main reason I don't like it also
13:44 < flaxarn> Not a major programmer but I just think the language is clumsy in many sorts of ways
13:44 < oldlaptop> It's not as though indentation isn't significant to *human readers* in all the other languages. They just let you lie, and then oops your tls stack accidentally doesn't check certificates.
13:46 < flaxarn> Lines of code can fall into or outside context just based on white space size/type, is a stupidly sensitive detail to trip over. Also I am not a fan of language that execute very slow like Python
13:46 < flaxarn> Its giving Ruby a tough competition sometimes!
13:47 < oldlaptop> Human readers demonstrably trip over it, to the point where C compilers have started to add options like -Wmisleading-indentation
13:48 < flaxarn> Human eye and Python both trip over tab versus space when tab has same size. Stupid beyond discussion
13:49 < shiranaihito_> ~everyone finds meaningful indentation problematic until they use Python enough to get used to it, and then it's actually kind of neat
13:49 < flaxarn> Enclose body like then->end or do->end or {->} is a good language structure
13:49 < shiranaihito_> it's a lot like parenthesis in Lisp/Clojure
13:49 < IcePic> shiranaihito_: I guess it is the same as paranthesis in lisp-like langs. Looks weird at start, becomes "better" the more you get used to it
13:49 < shiranaihito_> and Clojure is the best general-purpose programming language btw :P
13:50 < shiranaihito_> IcePic indeed :)
13:50 < flaxarn> It removes ambiguiti which Python claims is a goal, to make better code. The white space model is contradictive to me
13:51 < oldlaptop> Python 3 bans mixing tabs and spaces like that; I don't remember offhand what Python 2 does.
13:51 < flaxarn> But anyone can get use to too strong coffee if they have it enough .......
13:51 < oldlaptop> (Specifically each indentation level has to be the same characters)
13:51 < thrig> python2 lets you have a giggle-worth mix of indentation. let me find my one python script
13:51 < shiranaihito_> flaxarn i'd say the main point here is that.. you shouldn't let the indentation thing _prevent_ you from using Python, if it would otherwise be suitable for what you're doing
13:52 < demouser> Preventing individual formatting styles would have been better, with a tool like gofmt.
13:52 < flaxarn> shiranaihito_ I agree on that, I avoid it for more reason than just that
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13:53 < shiranaihito_> AFAIK Python's biggest problem might be dealing with C-based libraries as dependencies.. when "pip install " doesn't Just Work.. a lot of people are screwed (myself included)
13:53 < oldlaptop> thrig: Presumably they changed for a reason. :|
13:53 < thrig> https://thrig.me/tmp/sws.py
13:53 < shiranaihito_> flaxarn so what other reasons? :)
13:54 < IcePic> thrig: ugly.
13:54 < shiranaihito_> demouser a programming language deciding you you Shall use it is not great either
13:55 < thrig> nah, python is ugly, so I was trying to help it
13:55 < flaxarn> shiranaihito_ it execute slowly and interpreter needs lots of time to start up even when application is cached, and to me the language is exessively verbal to do short simple operations
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13:55 < shiranaihito_> flaxarn "slowly" compared to.. C? :)
13:55 < flaxarn> To anything except Ruby almost
13:56 < flaxarn> But latest Python3 is improving bit by bit
13:56 < shiranaihito_> flaxarn well Python does start up pretty much immediately for most tasks.. it's why it's considered a good choice for command line stuff, for example
13:56 < oldlaptop> "It's slow" is a property of an implementation, not a language. ("It's hard to write a fast implementation" *is* a property of the language, but fast implementations of languages that have it exist anyway, notably V8.)
13:56 < shiranaihito_> so i'm not sure what you mean
13:57 < flaxarn> oldlaptop and CPython is 99% of Python world so that perspective is not helping
13:57 < oldlaptop> thrig: Are the trailing spaces part of the joke?
13:57 < flaxarn> I know there is Nuitka and Pypy and and and ......
13:57 < oldlaptop> And you don't care, you just want to hate something. I get it.
13:57 < thrig> maybe? I wrote that a long time ago and luckily have mostly been able to ignore python since
13:58 < flaxarn> oldlaptop I don't hate it I just don't like it. But I think you don't care either you just want blindly defend it
13:58 < flaxarn> shiranaihito_ 0,15 sec is not almost immediate, in some usage cases it is also eternity and a very high % of CPU seconds spent just starting up instead of doing work
13:58 < oldlaptop> thrig: They've turned print into a function call since. I'll say I'm... surprised it (still) doesn't care about whitespace before/after keywords.
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13:59 < oldlaptop> flaxarn: I believe I've said already I don't particularly like python.
13:59 < flaxarn> oldlaptop great then no need to insult me as being hater
13:59 < flaxarn> Insult someone else
14:01 < IcePic> oldlaptop can insult me
14:01 < oldlaptop> It is well-known that IcePic's mother was a hamster
14:02 < shiranaihito_> :P
14:02 < thrig> and smells of oldlaptopberries
14:02 < oldlaptop> (O_O)
14:02 < IcePic> "are you hating on hamsters now?!?!?"
14:02 < flaxarn> shiranaihito_ to work I use alot of Lua, just to widen perspective of the discussion. It is very instant if you understand what I mean. Can execute 500 small applications in same time Python executes 10. Ptyhon cant ever fill the shoes in the requirement we had
14:03 < shiranaihito_> ok, and does Lua have libraries for doing the things you need?
14:03 < shiranaihito_> (and Python is bound to be a lot more expressive than Lua btw)
14:03 < flaxarn> Ofcourse or we could not use it
14:04 < oldlaptop> There are applications Python is reasonably well-suited for that lua really isn't as well. (Unfortuantely more than a few of them are going to be "the rest of the world mostly uses python for this and has therefore written $library".)
14:04 < shiranaihito_> flaxarn well alrighty then :) but Python is actually a pretty good language and a good choice for a lot of things.. more things than Lua
14:04 < shiranaihito_> (e.g because of reasons mentioned by oldlaptop)
14:05 < flaxarn> I just think its a crap language, not crap environment
14:05 < oldlaptop> (I get the vague impression lua's type system is at least better. Need to play with it sometime.)
14:07 < flaxarn> Lua type system is -today- good but was less good in the past
14:07 < flaxarn> It is evolving still despite the old age
14:07 < shiranaihito_> flaxarn it's alright to be wrong about Python :)
14:07 < oldlaptop> My principal objection to python is that it has a notion of type in the first place.
14:07 < shiranaihito_> oldlaptop huh? :D
14:08 < oldlaptop> I don't think there's very much useful middle ground between Tcl and Haskell.
14:08 < shiranaihito_> "having a notion of type" is a problem how? :P
14:08 < flaxarn> shiranaihito_ there is never wrong or right about taste and preference. Old saying: only foold will argue over matters of taste
14:08 < flaxarn> fools
14:08 < oldlaptop> shiranaihito_: If there's enough type to get in my way, I want it to be useful for proving important properties of the program.
14:09 < oldlaptop> Python's gets in the way, but is not useful for proving important properties of the program.
14:09 < shiranaihito_> oldlaptop sounds like you might like Clojure then :P
14:09 < oldlaptop> (I'm not talking about the relatively recent type annotation things they've added, for clarity.)
14:09 < shiranaihito_> (and btw again, Clojure is the best *practical* general-purpose programming language out there :P)
14:09 < oldlaptop> Yes, I need to play with real lisps sometime too. (Tcl is /somewhat/ lispy.)
14:09 < thrig> clojure came with a jvm (ugh, bad memories, like having to write timeout(1)) and jvm startup times
14:10 * oldlaptop does prefer the Tcl VM
14:10 < oldlaptop> although I guess it's a lot slower than whatever comes in openjdk
14:10 < shiranaihito_> or to be more accurate, Clojure is a Lisp that's actually practical, and also the best general-purpose language
14:10 < thrig> also in the clojure book the author was trying to claim that typing the code into a REPL was better than typing the code into an editor
14:11 < shiranaihito_> the JVM is great too :)
14:11 < oldlaptop> if the REPL is basically an editor...
14:11 < shiranaihito_> (it's a big part of what makes Clojure so practical)
14:11 < thrig> unless you've supported JVM in production and it was sticking crayons up its nose and corrupting payment batch files
14:12 < shiranaihito_> yeah, i guess crazy edge case shit happens :)
14:12 < thrig> (the developers, of course, felt that their code was "perfect" and did not need documentation on how to restart it, because why would you need to do that, the code is perfect)
14:12 < flaxarn> How rude of it to take Javascript's job!!
14:12 < shiranaihito_> but really, if you're at all curious about Clojure, give it a try
14:12 < thrig> tried clojure, already have rejected it
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14:13 * oldlaptop will probably end up fooling with some other lisp first
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14:13 < shiranaihito_> and watch (Clojure's creator) Rich Hickey's talks on YouTube
14:13 < shiranaihito_> (no matter if you ever use Clojure or not)
14:14 < shiranaihito_> he's super insightful
14:14 < shiranaihito_> Clojure is like a rabbit hole that leads to a series of findings of elegance :P "oh, right.. well of course he made the right choice with that too" :P
14:16 * IcePic imagines oldlaptop scheming and plotting
14:17 < oldlaptop> and probably after starting into haskell again, apparently ghc output doesn't come out WXNEEDED anymore (though wow is that package still big)
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14:55 < al1r4d> Hi guys
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15:06 < shiranaihito_> hi
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15:08 < al1r4d> Okay
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15:28 < shiranaihito_> :)
15:28 < shiranaihito_> i'm playing Tekken 7
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19:23 < pr-asadi> Greetings. I have Void Linux, I used dd(1) to write/copy the install73.img file to a USB device. When I put it to my computer, BIOS gets stuck. But it is fine with other OSes. Why is it like this?
19:23 < pr-asadi> Even NetBSD got booted.
19:23 < pr-asadi> And also FreeBSD.
19:23 < thrig> details unclear
19:24 < pr-asadi> thrig: I dd'd the install73.img to a USB file to install it on my computer.
19:24 < pr-asadi> BIOS gets stuck, it does not boot anything.
19:24 < thrig> that's what you already said
19:24 < pr-asadi> Nor it does let me to do anything with keyboard.
19:25 < pr-asadi> What is unclear?
19:25 < thrig> the precise dd command used, what "stuck" means, exactly, etc.
19:26 < pr-asadi> "doas dd if=install73.img of=/dev/sdb bs=1M oflag=sync status=progress"
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19:26 < pr-asadi> BIOS does not boot the USB.
19:26 < pr-asadi> I mean, booting the OS from USB.
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19:54 < phy1729> did you check that the checksum matches?
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19:56 < sibiria> pr-asadi: sdbc
19:57 < sibiria> or, uh, is that on linux or openbsd?
19:57 < sibiria> "doas" says one thing, sdb another
19:58 < phy1729> There's a linux port of doas that's fairly well done by one of the void people
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20:00 < sibiria> medium is fine then, assuming the image was correctly downloaded
20:00 < phy1729> Hrm thought it was leah that did the port.
20:01 < pr-asadi> sibiria: I'm on Linux.
20:01 < pr-asadi> I currently have FreeBSD on my PC, and void linux on my laptop.
20:01 < pr-asadi> I found another problem.
20:01 < pr-asadi> My AMD graphic card.
20:01 < pr-asadi> I have to solve it first.
20:01 < pr-asadi> Without that I won't be able to do much on OpenBSD.
20:02 < pr-asadi> Thank you for all your responses.
20:06 < sibiria> iirc you were talking about HD 5450. did it not work?
20:06 < sibiria> i used the 5570 for a while. it's from the same era and similar architecture
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20:11 < sibiria> or probably same arch, just wider rendering pipeline etc.
20:11 < sibiria> like all of AMD's old "wooden" GPU families
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21:11 < Zyxer> pr-asadi: Check the USB port, some don't like to boot from USB 3
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21:13 < Zyxer> What is the issue with the GPU? It should just werk if I am not mistaken.
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21:17 < thrig> several bios options could eff with the booting or the graphics
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22:41 < mischief> my home is now 'smart'
22:41 < mischief> running home assistant os in vmd on my router
22:41 < mischief> couldn't get it to run natively in openbsd :(
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22:57 < thrig> open the pod bay doors, home
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23:05 < sibiria> dave? what are you doing, dave? i can feel my everything going.
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--- Log closed Sun May 21 00:00:45 2023