--- Log opened Tue May 23 00:00:39 2023
--- Day changed Tue May 23 2023
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06:00 < lavaball> since last current update i have trouble staying connected to my socks proxy. firefox is also acting weird. i get handshake time out errors and such.
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06:06 < lavaball> ssh works fine though. 
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07:39 < Newbix> hi, when adding a x11 user via useradd, I need to set the login-class to xenodm or default?
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07:43 < Newbix> xenodm is for the daemon if I understand
07:43 < IcePic> you should not need to change anything for a normal, x11-using account
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07:43 < IcePic> apart from whatever changes one might need for browsers or other bloating programs, but pkg_add information would probably have this info for you already
07:45 < Newbix> nice ty
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07:47 < al1r4d> httpd or nginx for perfomance?
07:49 < lts> The one you like more
07:49 < IcePic> yes, there is wisdom in using one you feel comfortable configuring
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07:50 < IcePic> in regard to feature-sets, if httpd does what you need, it might be simpler to stick to it, since it comes with base
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09:49 < Newbix> how to reload /etc/hostname.bwfm0 please? can I give it to ifconfig or something else?
09:50 < renaud> sh /etc/netstart bwfm0
09:51 < Newbix> yessss ty
09:54 < IcePic> it doesn't remove old confs, but sets whats in that file. For some interfaces this could matter, for most its fine to just netstart it as listed above
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10:51 < Intrepid> Hi All, I'm getting ready to install the latest version of OpenBSD 7.3 (am on 7.2). I'd ideally like to back everything up to a USB stick drive I have ready before then doing a full HDD wipe and then setting up 7.2 on an encrypted drive... What freely available tools would you recommend for backing up and any special hints/tips to be aware of?
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11:03 < IcePic> Intrepid: perhaps this helps, https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html#DupFS
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11:10 < Intrepid> Thks IcePic so if I wanted to do a full backup (1st time) of everything on the drive I'd use the "Dump -0" command?
11:11 < IcePic> yes
11:11 < Intrepid> Does this process copy every byte of the HDD and try and copy it to the dump destination btw? Or just the actual used data such as the OpenBSD file system and /home / Downloads that I've created since using it?
11:11 < IcePic> I think dump makes a level 0 dump if there are no previous ones, but its correct that one starts with a 0 dump
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11:19 < sibiria> Intrepid: it's not a block level backup. it's a file system level backup
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11:20 < Intrepid> great, and so is there a way to see how much space my existing installation (and its downloads etc.) is taking up on the HDD so that I can see in advance whether my USB stick is big enough to hold everything?
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11:20 < sibiria> df -h
11:22 < Intrepid> Thanks sibiria
11:23 < sibiria> if you intend to dump /, /etc, /var and so on i suggest you do it in single-user mode, or the dump can end up being weird
11:23 < sibiria> also, in most cases you'll be fine with just tar
11:24 < sibiria> e.g. when you just want to save your /etc and /var or something before a sysupgrade
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11:27 < Intrepid> single-user mode?  and is tar being suggest here as an alternative to dump altogether?
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11:29 < Intrepid> Regarding dump's command line arguments:  Do I need to use the -f command to get the entire system and directories (downloads etc.) backed up to a specific directory on my USB drive?
11:29 < sibiria> tar can handle pretty much anything except hard links. if you're looking for a way to do a "rollback" of an installation that goofed up, you might want to do block level backups instead
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11:30 < sibiria> setting an installation up and then restoring it with dump/restore is on the whole time consuming and a bit clumsy
11:32 < Intrepid> Right, well my main concern is not so much being able to restore a whole installation anyway. I'm more concerned about being able to retrieve important files, or copy special user settings to a new OpenBSD install. e.g. I once alias'd a bunch of things so that whenever I move between directories it shows the tree on the FWWM windows that I'm using
11:32 < Intrepid> the command line in... What is that file that saves that info btw?
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11:32 < sibiria> if you wish to back-up to keep important files safe, i recommend tar
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11:33 < sibiria> dump/restore is more of a concern for the system as a whole in my opinion
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11:34 < sibiria> but if you wish to use dump/restore, the typical way to go about it is to place yourself in the destination directory and do "dump -0f - /sourcepath"
11:34 < sibiria> or rather, "dump -0f - /sourcepath | restore -rf -"
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11:35 < Intrepid> I've just been reading up on tar in the man pages since you suggested it... Just as I was starting to feel comfortable with dump hah
11:36 < sibiria> you may give tar a try: tar -cf /root/etc_backup.tar /etc
11:36 < Intrepid> Why, btw, in the command line arguments for Dump given above, is there any mention of |restore -rF ? Or are you trying to sho how I'd use restore for a dump created with that first part of the command line
11:36 < sibiria> then:  tar -tf etc_backup.tar | less      and see if it looks like what you're after
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11:39 < pardis> piping dump into restore can be used to duplicate a filesystem, if you want filesystem-like access to the result
11:39 < sibiria> Intrepid: piping directly to restore is how you duplicate
11:39 < pardis> but it isn't necessary just to create a backup
11:40 < sibiria> you can dump to a file as well and keep that elsewhere
11:40 < Intrepid> Wait, if I use tar isn't it creating a single file containing all the system files and downloaded files that I'm trying to backup? If so then if that single file becomes corrupt don't I lose all its contents?
11:40 < sibiria> correct, that's what it does
11:40 < pardis> the same is true of any backup, if the backup is corrupted you lose it
11:41 < Intrepid> Yes but compared to dump, you might have only one file of many corrupted, meaning everything backed up, but for the corrupted file is good for restoration...
11:41 < sibiria> the different is that dump contains all the low-level file system stuff - inodes, hard links etc. - while tar will contain "a list of dirs, files and what's in the files" so to speak (plus stuff like ownership, flags, permissions)
11:42 < sibiria> difference*
11:42 < pardis> dump also produces a single file
11:42 < pardis> unless you pipe it into restore to create a duplicate, which you can do just as easily with tar (piping tar -c into tar -x)
11:42 < Intrepid> oh yeh sibiria and what do these "symbolic links" mean... Thanks pardis re: clarifying the dump vs tar issue
11:43 < pardis> it sounds like you need to pick up a good book on unix
11:43 < pardis> a symbolic link is a way to have one file reference another by name
11:43 < sibiria> a reference that can be deleted without the other end also being deleted
11:43 < sibiria> while with a hard link, if you delete the link, the original also goes
11:43 < pardis> what?
11:44 < pardis> that's not true of a hard link
11:45 < sibiria> ah no, you're right, it's not the case in ffs/ffs2
11:46 < Intrepid> Notwithstanding bedtime reading suggestions: whats the practical implication of doing a tar backup with this symbolic link retaining option?
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11:46 < sibiria> you don't really need to concern yourself about that detail if you're just looking to safeguard your private files
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11:47 < sibiria> by default, unless you tell tar otherwise, it will keep all the details of your files etc. that are important to keep
11:48 < Intrepid> Well that all depends how common these "symbolic links" are in any files I've created on OpenBSD... are they a rarity? any examples? Would a libreoffice doc ever have anything using symbolic links (I'm thinking back to Excel spreadsheets here that link to other sheets etc.)
11:48 < sibiria> commonly only happen when *you* make the links
11:48 < sibiria> you can tell tar to follow links as if they were real files, to make sure you won't lose anything
11:49 < Intrepid> ah ok, well since I've not done that in any docs created to date I'm thinking I can ignore that -h flag
11:49 < sibiria> it will rarely hurt to provide that option, Justin Case
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11:52 < Intrepid> -L is the synonym for -h !! lol
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11:54 < Intrepid> Ok I wanna go back to this piping vs non piping method. Once I create this backup I want to be able to navigate into it and pick out specific files to restore potentially.. Is piping necessary to get the backup navigable in this format?
11:55 < Intrepid> and by navigate I mean use the typical "cd /dir/dir" to navigate to the special file I've backed up
11:55 < sibiria> last time i navigated a dump file in interactive mode was like 20 years ago
11:55 < Intrepid> I'm thinking Tar here
11:56 < sibiria> with tar you can extract specific files/paths by just providing them as the last argument(s) when extracting
11:56 < sibiria> e.g.:  tar -xf etc_backup.tar etc/smtpd/
11:56 < Intrepid> WTF, so I'd have to memorise a 20 path deep directory to a special file I want to restore?
11:57 < sibiria> you can browse the archive:  tar -tf etc_backup.tar | less
11:57 < Intrepid> heh ok better
11:57 < sibiria> for most purposes and intents, you can consider a tar file a "zip archive", but uncompressed
11:58 < sibiria> or "zip folder", in familiar windows lingo
11:58 < pardis> if you want filesystem-like semantics, you can pipe tar -c into tar -x to duplicate a filesystem
11:58 < pardis> although rsync is probably a better tool if you want a backup of that nature
11:59 < Intrepid> Yeh that's what I thought... and that's what I don't like because zip files normally have to be unzipped unless using a special Winrara archiving tool, though it seems OpenBSD provides a non GUI equivalent to this in Tar right?
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12:00 < IcePic> tar is very much non-gui. No "guitar" in sight. ;)
12:00 < sibiria> badum-tish
12:00 < Intrepid> hahah dump ---> tar --> rsync ..... what next
12:00 < sibiria> Intrepid: tar itself was always a command line program
12:00 < sibiria> there are tools that wrap a gui around it, but none of that belong to tar itself
12:01 < Intrepid> Thanks btw pardis ... I'm gonna look at rsync now
12:02 < sibiria> for your own personal backups, and even for practically most import things of the openbsd system itself, tar will suffice. the corner cases are not many
12:03 < IcePic> rsync is better for run #2,#3.. but for just "copy this once from A to B", dump and tar is fine. Rsync is also fine there, but on obsd it is a 3rd-party program, while tar and dump/restore are always available
12:05 < Intrepid> That seems true sibiria but having an easily navigable backup file system like when you even cp a bunch of directories to an external drive, is just as important. I'm not gonna remember full or even partial file names to query in a command line argument
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12:05 < Intrepid> I need a backup "archive" that I can browse through, even if its via the command line showing directory tree's and contents
12:05 < Newbix> what do you think about this please? https://github.com/panpansh/openbsdthings
12:06 < pardis> even if you want to copy once, you can do an initial rsync while the system is running, and then do a final sync after stopping services to get a consistent backup
12:06 < sibiria> right. a dump file lets you do that interactively on the command line. it's also possible with most graphical archiving tools for tar files
12:06 < pardis> which can save downtime if you have a lot of things to back up
12:06 < Intrepid> yeh IcePic I just did a net search for Openbsd rsync man and all I get is Openrsync
12:07 < pardis> Newbix: looks utterly ridiculous
12:07 < pardis> not even "this is a bad idea" ridiculous, but "why would anyone ever think of doing this?" ridiculous
12:08 < Intrepid> I've just got 7 Gb to backup to a USB stick... I doubt rsync will take too long right?
12:09 < sibiria> it'll be painful because of so many succinct writes. writing a single tar archive will be faster
12:09 < IcePic> one thing to consider if using rsync is that openbsd usb storage is more synchronous than other OSes. The others will happily "lie" to you and tell you it is completed very fast, but then when you want to unmount nicely, they will have you wait until it is actually finished.
12:10 < Newbix> @pardis why is it ridiculous?
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12:11 < sibiria> favorite "feature" of modern USB3 controllers and Linux' cache: being able to ingest and output 1.4 GB to a 2.5" HDD in 3 seconds!!
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12:13 < IcePic> Newbix: it is ridiculous. You can't just hardcode gid numbers like "groupadd -g 7202 g_sysutil" 
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12:14 < IcePic> if you don't know why that is a bad idea, you should not suggest that people should run that script
12:14 < Newbix> hu
12:16 < Newbix> I don't know what to reply but thanks for your feedback
12:18 < Newbix> @IcePic do you use a browser and enable JavaScript sometimes by example?
12:19 < IcePic> Newbix: I do, its called "having a computer at work", so I do that every week
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12:19 < IcePic> but I seldomly assume people are not already using gids and uids around 7000 and blindly try to set stuff to these numbers
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12:20 < Newbix> are you not afraid letting some binaries world executable if you can be more stricter?
12:20 < pardis> asking why it's ridiculous is a bit backwards
12:20 < pardis> changes to the OpenBSD defaults should be justified
12:21 < pardis> there is no need to justify *not* making those changes
12:21 < pardis> this just makes changes with no explanation for most of them
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12:21 < Newbix> strange
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12:23 < pardis> and with no justification for why it's doing what it does, nobody can decide if it's appropriate for them or not
12:23 < pardis> you can't just disable sshd on every system when some people use sshd
12:24 < Newbix> you can comment the sshd part or make the script in a asking way
12:24 < pardis> yeah, or you can not run it at all
12:24 < IcePic> pardis: why? don't you want to make sure user123 and _anotherusers account doesn't expire?
12:24 < pardis> if I have to inspect what it's doing and decide whether I need each step, how does this help me? I can just disable things I don't need without this
12:24 < Newbix> do you prefer letting every bin world executable?
12:25 < Newbix> this is the main question
12:26 < IcePic> if hackers get to run execve(), then the missing x-bit on /bin/ls is not what is going to stop them
12:26 < pardis> it's not the main question when the thing you linked mostly does things other than that
12:26 < pardis> like replacing /etc/mygate with some random IP address that isn't on my network? this is just going to break almost every system
12:27 < IcePic> disabling slaac so my interfaces don't get v6..
12:27 < Intrepid> sibiria How long will a 2013 i5 level laptop likely gonna need to DUMP (1st backup) 7Gb to a USB 2.0 stick?
12:27 < Newbix> are you trolling?
12:27 < IcePic> copying /etc/hostname.bwfm0.. o_O
12:28 < IcePic> I mean really.. https://github.com/panpansh/openbsdthings/blob/main/_hardening/install/rootfs/etc/hostname.bwfm0
12:28 < renaud> pardis: if you replace mygate by some random IP not on your network, it should not be dangerous, you just won't have any default gw
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12:28 < pardis> yes, I call that breaking my system
12:28 < sibiria> Intrepid: the bottleneck is the USB memory. USB2 has a maximum transfer speed of ~35 mb/s, but i don't think your USB stick is that fast. maybe 10-15 mb/s at best?
12:28 < pardis> if I have working networking, and then run a script, and my network no longer works, it is broken
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12:28 < Intrepid> So it won't be more than an hour right?
12:29 < IcePic> how we all love to get someone elses fstab.example installed, with their uuid for the drive.
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12:29 < pardis> that's your own fault for not manually setting the right duid when you installed OpenBSD, obviously
12:29 < Newbix> are you able to understand that is a starting point from my computer where maybe some files or files content is not for your specific computer?
12:30 < pardis> where exactly does the documentation for this warn you that running it is going to break your system and needs to be adapted?
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12:30 < sibiria> Intrepid: at 10 mb/s, 7gb will take 2+ hours
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12:30 < Intrepid> Should be long enough to see the conclusion of this Newbix vs Pardis battle
12:31 < Newbix> incredible
12:31 < renaud> too bad I missed the beginning of this long troll
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12:32 < Intrepid> ok well its time to carpe diem....  Can I start this dump whilst still logged in here in case it doesn't work and I need hand holding .-)
12:33 < IcePic> Intrepid: sure
12:33 < pardis> you can, but the backup may be inconsistent if files change while it is dumping
12:34 < pardis> if you're just backing up system configs that shouldn't matter, but it can matter for ~/.mozilla, for example
12:34 < Intrepid> Speaking of Mozilla... I'm just trying to backup my bookmarks... I press "backup" and nothings doing :9
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12:37 < Intrepid> I was expecting it to bring up a "save to" prompt but I'm literally getting nothing...
12:37 < Intrepid> Am I to assume it's backed it up somewhere and I should just get on with dumping?
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12:42 < Intrepid> Ok, before I close this FFox window (logout) here's the dump command line proposition I've got for you guys (thanks sibiria) dump -0u dump -0f - /sourcepath | restore -rf /destpath    Will this give me a navigable backup (duplicate) ?
12:42 < Intrepid> lol maybe an extra dump in tehre
12:43 < Intrepid> Ok, before I close this FFox window (logout) here's the dump command line proposition I've got for you guys (thanks sibiria) dump -0f - /sourcepath | restore -rf /destpath
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12:43 < IcePic> looks ok
12:44 < sibiria> should do the trick
12:45 < Intrepid> ok thanks again for the help folks... cya flipside
12:45 < sibiria> that will give you not a dump file, but a duplicate of /sourcepath. you will be piping the dump directly over to restore
12:46 < sibiria> you'll need to do this as root, too, by the way. since dump traverses file systems at lowest level it needs access to raw device
12:46 < Intrepid> oh... will that not mean I've got a duplicate of all the file system and downloads etc. then saved to the specified destpath on my USB stick?
12:46 < sibiria> it means exactly that
12:47 < sibiria> not a single dump file, but a copy of the file system, dir by dir, file by file
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12:47 < Intrepid> great, thats what I wanted!
12:47 < Intrepid> cyaz
12:47 < sibiria> have fun
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13:02 < Newbix> @pardis can you develop about execve things please I'm stressed
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13:02 < pardis> what?
13:02 < Intrepid> Ok that went less than well... I think I'm having trouble with the /sourcepath part of the dump command line... It demands a source drive to dump from but I've got multiple wd0's to specify. I tried wd* in the argument above but it complains of too many sources or similar
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13:03 < Newbix> wasn't you saying: if hackers get to run execve(), then the missing x-bit on /bin/ls is not what is going to stop them
13:03 < Newbix> maybe IcePic
13:04 < pardis> if only IRC provided a way to tell which user sent which message
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13:04 < Newbix> wow 
13:05 < pardis> Intrepid: dump is for dumping one filesystem at a time, if you want to dump multiple then you will need to invoke dump once per filesystem
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13:05 < Intrepid> Now I see why its less than popular lol
13:06 < Intrepid> I went with the default partitioning but that still means I've got half the alphabet of partitions for (File systems?) to backup...
13:06 < pardis> it's from the age when disks were small enough that you had one or two filesystems per disk, and you would dump them out onto tape as a backup
13:06 < sibiria> you can absolutely have it filter out a path like in my example. it doesn't need to be a block device
13:06 < pardis> you can filter out a path, but still only from a single filesystem
13:06 < pardis> it won't cross mountpoints
13:07 < sibiria> yes. it digs out the right device and then it stays there
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13:09 < Intrepid> my HDD is labelled wd0, wd1 etc. according to that df -h command given earlier... So am I just typing in "dump -0u /dev/wd0/*.* |restore -rf /sd0/<specific directory./ to get this working to create a duplicate file system within the specific directory on my USB stick?
13:10 < pardis> no, because /dev/wd0 doesn't exist and the /dev/wd0* files aren't directories so there is nothing under them
13:11 < sibiria> use actual file system paths. dump will locate the correct device by itself
13:11 < sibiria> dump -0f - /actual/path | restore -rf /mnt/usbstickorsomething/
13:11 < Intrepid> ah nice
13:12 < sibiria> or:  dump -0f /mnt/usb/mybackupfile.dump /actual/path
13:12 < Intrepid> Aren't you guys lucky to have such a talented n00b to work with on this o_0
13:12 < sibiria> you may then store the file elsewhere, and interactively browse it with restore if necessary
13:12 < sibiria> we're blessed to have a new openbsd user. there's like 15 of us now in the world
13:13 < Intrepid> Haha
13:13 < thrig> xkcd://927
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13:15 < Newbix> @thrig what is this? not the first time I see that here
13:18 < lolok> shorthand for https://xkcd.com/927/
13:18 < Intrepid> sibiria "dump -0f - /actual/path | restore -rf /mnt/usbstickorsomething/"   and then you said "dump -0f /mnt/usb/mybackupfile.dump /actual/path" was the 2nd iteration a correction to remove the dash you had after -0f in the first entry?
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13:18 < sibiria> Intrepid: the dash here means "don't save to file, send to stdout"
13:18 < sibiria> ...which we pipe with |, feeding output directly to restore
13:19 < thrig> or really I have an xkcd script that pulls the comics over the json api and caches them locally, as part of the "web browsers suck" mitigation
13:19 < Intrepid> excellent thats what I was hoping to avoid creating a single output file as backup
13:19 < sibiria> then don't. just go with the first example which duplicates directly to a new destination
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13:20 < pardis> or use cp or rsync and save yourself the hassle of serialising and deserialising everything
13:21 < sibiria> like pardis pointed out earlier, dump/restore are archaic tools from way back. these days they are relevant only in very few scenarios
13:23 < Intrepid> I've actually backed up all my important files to the USB using cp the other day, so this is about backing up system settings. I was hoping dump would allow doing this in a simple block specification manner but it seems I'll have to refer dump to copy each system DIR like /etc, /sys /usr /root right?
13:24 < sibiria> not each dir, each separate file system
13:24 < pardis> if you want a block-level copy, you want dd
13:24 < pardis> you can also pass dump a mount point if you want a backup of the entire filesystem
13:25 < Newbix> @thrig thankss
13:26 < Intrepid> So what are the different file systems that I'll be needing to specify then? I was thinking it was all those different partitions that OpenBSD created on first installation (wd0, wdl, wdj etc.) but from above I understand that file systems are entered as directories (not the drives) ? Confused.
13:26 < sibiria> you can see them with df -h. those are your file systems
13:27 < sibiria> you may refer to them by their path as well. dump will figure things out
13:27 < Intrepid> ah so that is wd0 etc.
13:27 < sibiria> right, or /, /usr, /var etc.
13:27 < sibiria> (should you have these as separate file systems instead of plain directories on /)
13:27 < Intrepid> on / ?
13:28 < sibiria> you will always have / as a distinct file system
13:28 < sibiria> and, usually, /usr and /var and a few more as well
13:28 < pardis> unless you're in a chroot
13:28 < Intrepid> what a mind fuk
13:28 < sibiria> but sometimes people don't make separate file systems for those or anything else, and just keep a single file system: /
13:29 < pardis> if you don't want to deal with this, you really don't want to be using dump
13:29 < Intrepid> lol
13:29 < Intrepid> I've come this far pardis .-P
13:30 < sibiria> off you pop then:  dump -0f - / | restoreblah    then same for /var, /usr, /usr/local, and whichever else you deem important from the output of "df -h"
13:34 < Intrepid> ok, apparently I'm breaking pipes and ENTIRE DUMP ABORTED
13:35 < sibiria> dump files are pretty handy unless you plan on diving into the backup 5 times a day
13:36 < Intrepid> ugh I'm trying to copy / paste the command line input from FWWM2 into here so you can see what I typed but how
13:36 < Intrepid> I can go the other way using SHIFT-INSERT
13:38 < sibiria> dump -0f /mnt/usb/fgfgsdfsd.dump /some/source/path     <-  just try this and see how it makes you feel
13:38 < Intrepid> Is it possible to use any inbuilt OpenBSD tools to encrypt the drive with the data already on it btw? (like filevault on mac), or does that insertion of random 0's and 1's over any unused space make it an impossible proposition on anything other than a freshly formatted drive?
13:38 < sibiria> then try this:  restore -if /mnt/usb/agajdfghs.dump
13:39 < sibiria> no it's not possible unfortunately
13:39 < sibiria> but this is one of those niche cases where dump/restore can come handy
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13:39 < sibiria> migrating to a new drive set-up to use full-disk encryption
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13:43 < Intrepid> Thanks for that new line sibiria but before I use it I wanna double check that the erroneous dump I got on last attempt. I've spotted a potentially telling line "restore: tape read error: is a directory"
13:45 < Intrepid> After typing: dump -0f - home/ |restore -rf /mnt/usb/<DestDir>/
13:45 < sibiria> are you currently positioned in /? else "home/" will not be a valid relative path
13:46 < Intrepid> After typing: dump -0f - /home |restore -rf /mnt/usb/<DestDir>/
13:46 < sibiria> change to:  /home
13:46 < pardis> you're missing a - in the restore command
13:46 < Intrepid> also tried without the final / in that restore argument but same prob
13:46 < sibiria> yeah that too. restore isn't reading from stdin
13:46 < pardis> you are telling it to read the dump from /mnt/usb/<DestDir>/ instead of - (stdin)
13:46 < pardis> the error is telling you exactly what you are doing wrong
13:47 < pardis> restore is getting a read error trying to read a dump from /mnt/usb/<DestDir>/ because it is a directory
13:48 < Intrepid> so where does the missing - need to go in the command line... In the latter bit after |restore -rf ?
13:49 < Intrepid> ie: dump -0f -/home |restire -rf - /mnt/usb/<DestDir> ?
13:49 < sibiria> - /home   <- space between
13:49 < sibiria> and fix the spelling mistake on "restire", then it looks ok
13:50 < Intrepid> That's just my retyping it here: I had the - with space in the actual input
13:50 < Intrepid> ie: dump -0f - /home |restore -rf - /mnt/usb/<DestDir> ?
13:51 < Intrepid> Note I've inserted the additional dash after rf .... is that right
13:51 < sibiria> yes
13:51 < Intrepid> okies brb
13:52 < Intrepid> DUMP IS DONE =8D
13:52 < Intrepid> Now I just need the bog roll
13:52 < sibiria> just to clarify here, -f is the parameter for "what file to use". for a lot of program, specifying - as file means "no file, usd stdout/stdin instead"
13:52 < sibiria> use*
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13:52 < Intrepid> ahhh thks sibiria
13:53 < Intrepid> So I did end up doing the dump, its just that it resembles what you'd find in that toilet out of Transpotting
13:54 < sibiria> is your USB flash memory formatted as FAT32?
13:54 < sibiria> you may run into various issues if the destination file system isn't capable of holding the specifics of the file system you're dumping from, not the least in terms of allowed characters in filenames and such
13:54 < Intrepid> hehe no I'm j/k... I'm not sure how valid/working the output is... Just relieved that it actually permitted the dump in the first place. I'd say its FAT32, but not sure... command to check?
13:54 < Intrepid> probably exFAT
13:55 < sibiria> not exfat, but probably fat32
13:55 < sibiria> disklabel -n <the device node name of the USB memory>
13:55 < Intrepid> disklabel -sd0
13:55 < sibiria> anyway, glad you finally got it going. do consider tar, or at least dumping to a single file for easy keeping
13:56 < eea> i cheat and use duplicity
13:56 < pardis> disklabel won't tell you how the filesystem is formatted, it will only show you partition metadata, which can be misleading because not every filesystem has a disklabel partition type
13:56 < Intrepid> doesn't show anything that would clarify the partitioning that I can tell..
13:56 < pardis> if the filesystem is already mounted, just run 'mount' and see what type it is htere
13:56 < Intrepid> err formatting I mean
13:57 < Intrepid> USB type MSDOS
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13:59 < sibiria> before you conclude this, give dump files a try. i'm sure you'll appreciate the option, and i'm convinced sticking to it will maintain your sanity
13:59 < lavaball> since last sysupgrade -s   every connection through my socks proxy takes forever. or doesn't work wiht handshake errors or PR_END_OF_FILE_ERROR in firefox. ssh works though. 
13:59 < Intrepid> ok and by try you mean try and peruse my dump on the usb stick?
14:00 < sibiria> no i mean this:   dump -0f /mnt/usb/etcbackup.dump /etc
14:00 < Intrepid> and there's nothing there lol
14:00 < sibiria> then:  restore -if /mnt/usb/etcbackup.dump
14:00 < Intrepid> wait there's no files or DIR's in the /mnt/sub/DestDir
14:02 < Intrepid> shouldn't /mnt/usb/DestDIR be showing a duplicate of my /home directory that I specified in the dump -0f - /home command
14:02 < pardis> no, because the command you ran was wrong
14:02 < Intrepid> it worked that last time...
14:02 < pardis> (I only just noticed this by reading restore(8), which is a good idea when running a command for the first time in general)
14:03 < eea> +1 for openbsd quality man pages
14:03 < pardis> "Other arguments to the command are file or directory names specifying the files that are to be restored."
14:03 < pardis> so you told restore(8) to restore the file /mnt/sub/DestDir from your dump to the current directory
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14:05 < sibiria> it was mentioned early on.. typically, to duplicate, one positions themselves in the destination, then dump|restore's
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14:06 < Intrepid> ah ok, so the command was right but I needed to run it from the destination DIR on the USB?
14:06 < sibiria> what was also mentioned was that dump/restore works on lowest level of the file system, so the destination should ideally also be of the same type. it won't simply read just a file, and create just a new file. it deals with inodes and all other intricate details of the file system
14:06 < pardis> your command was only right if you wanted to duplicate only the file /home/mnt/sub/DestDir
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14:08 < Intrepid> ugh so I need to turn it round to the other form you sibiria specified earlier ?
14:09 < sibiria> the thing at the end is desired component to extract from the dump
14:09 < sibiria> cd /mnt/usb; dump ... | restore -f - .
14:09 < sibiria> to get the "root" of the dump
14:10 < sibiria> . in this case means the very top level (aka root) of the hierarchy
14:11 < sibiria> if it had said for example "./etc/smtpd" then the only thing restored from the dump would've been /etc/smtpd (presuming it was present in the dump)
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14:14 < pardis> you can just omit . if you want the whole dump, it's not a required argument
14:15 < sibiria> everything is easier with dump files
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14:18 < Intrepid> I'm thinking I need to come back at this with fresh eyes. I'm mind eff'd atm. It seems based on the last set of replies that the last part of the command line involving the |restore onwards is just about stipulating what you want restore to show as part of the dump backup?, and not a reflection of the duplicate file system I was hoping would show
14:18 < Intrepid> there instead... right?
14:22 < sibiria> just give dump files a try.
14:23 < sibiria> The Lord created man and woman, light and the heavens, and then immediately after he created dump files and interactive management of them, just to make sure mankind would never suffer like you do
14:23 < sibiria> stop insulting The Lord. use dump files.
14:23 < Intrepid> and the path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the tyranny of DUMP
14:24 < eea> dump is niether hostile or tyrannical
14:24 < Intrepid> but seriously, yeh I'll try the dumpfiles option using dump -0f /mnt/usb/fgfgsdfsd.dump /some/source/path
14:24 < Intrepid> but not tonight... I'm done
14:25 < eea> but like a proper daemon, pedantic about invokation syntax
14:25 < Intrepid> invocate by sacrificing a small child more like
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14:25 < Intrepid> laters :)
14:25 < eea> +1 for reading man pages
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15:10 < sarahs> hi community, question: after the upgrade from 7.3 to 7.4, and after another reboot due to power cut, my wireless keyboard and mouse combo input device does not do anything anymore. the control lights show up correctly and when i test it on another computer it works just right. When i plugin the usb sender it appears in messages log just like normal: https://pastebin.com/t1zqTLDa any idea what i
15:10 < sarahs> can check to get it working again on OpenBSD 7.4?
15:11 < thrig> that will have to wait until November or so
15:11 < Lucas6023> 7.3 you mean?
15:12 < sarahs> yea, right... 7.2 to 7.3. sorry :D
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15:19 < lavaball> hm, apparentl it's the ssh proxy itself. but why? i ahven't change anything there in two days. only had the problem today.
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15:19 < thrig> cannot predict now
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15:20 < sibiria> try using AI to diffuse the problem into a clear solution
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15:21 < thrig> not sure if anyone has done a large magic 8ball model yet
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15:28 < tetra> Xorg says it can't find file `/usr/X11R6/lib/modules/dri/i965_dri.so`, and my iGPU's hw accel doesn't seem to be working, based on firefox's performance and the fact that YT videos are railing my CPU
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15:36 < sibiria> shouldn't it be using i915_dri.so
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15:42 < tetra> no reference to i915_dri.so in the log
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15:59 < sarahs> nevermind, another reboot resolved the issue with the not anymore working usb wireless keyboard and mouse input device
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16:06 < thrig> did you try turning it off and back on again
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18:26 < sibiria> renaud: i'm unfortunately at a loss as to how i managed to get my VM booting. i can no longer replicate it with any settings i try. i will have to explore the OCI API to see if i can find something about the VM config that's not obvious from the control panels
18:26 < sibiria> and now i'm afraid to reboot my instance...
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18:34 < Bradipo> Someone shared an interesting research and development website a few months ago here in this channel.
18:34 < Bradipo> It uses OpenBSD for part of it's research and they have found a few vulnerabilities in OpenBSD and published them there.
18:34 < Bradipo> I cannot seem to find the site with any search engines...
18:34 < Bradipo> Does anyone remember the site?
18:35 < Bradipo> It has a quite modern CSS look/feel to it.
18:36 < thrig> w3m accepts all such CSS flavorings
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18:37 < thrig> (so when people start talking about the "orange tech site" I'm usually like wut?)
18:37 < sibiria> and when they talk about some image with a diagram you're like "what, you guys have images?!"
18:38 < thrig> and the FBI recommends that you guys install an ad blocker, for some reason
18:39 < jcs> Bradipo: something commercial or a person's site?
18:41 < Bradipo> Well, I wasn't really certain if it was personal or commercial.  I think it was an R&D group, so likely commercial, but it didn't have a commercial feel to it.
18:43 < jcs> m00nbsd.net?
18:43 < Bradipo> Haha, no.
18:44 < Bradipo> Had a lot of muted oranges and yellows and black in the pages with crazy CSS.
18:44 < Bradipo> Well, if I find it, I'll share.
18:44 < sibiria> with palm trees and sunny beaches kind of graphical theme?
18:44 < Bradipo> Yeah.
18:45 < Bradipo> I think so.
18:45 < sibiria> i know the site but the url has escaped me :)
18:45 < Bradipo> Had a retro look to it of sorts.
18:45 < sibiria> very strange graphical theme for comp-sci kind of content
18:45 < jcs> https://research.exoticsilicon.com/
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18:45 < sibiria> that's the one i was thinking about
18:46 < IcePic> qualys.com has posted some openbsd things needing to get fixed
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18:49 < Bradipo> Yes, it's Exotic ASilicon.
18:49 < Bradipo> s/A//
18:49 < Bradipo> Now to bookmark it so I don't forget again.
18:49 < Bradipo> What I don't understand is why searching for various terms found on this site don't result in a hit!
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18:51 < jcs> did you bing it
18:51 < Bradipo> I used various search engines.
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18:53 < Bradipo> Searched for: "OpenBSD research blu-ray backup tar" all of which are found on this page: https://research.exoticsilicon.com/articles/backup_strategies
18:53 < Bradipo> Or even this page: https://research.exoticsilicon.com/articles/crystal_does_optical
18:54 < Bradipo> Because it's the only article I could remember well enough to come up with some search terms.
18:54 < uwharrie> maybe they're not paying for page ranking or doing any SEO spamming
18:54 < jcs> https://research.exoticsilicon.com/robots.txt
18:54 < Bradipo> Cold be.
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18:54 < jcs> maybe googlebot got tired scrolling through the ascii art and gave up parsing it
18:55 < Bradipo> Hahaha, perhaps.
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19:55 < lavaball> the sockd.conf man page doesn't explain waht these do: bind, bindreply, connect, udpassociate and udpreply.    nothing in sockd(8) and i don't have hosts_access(5). 
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20:04 < CosmicDJ> lavaball: so?
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20:11 < Bradipo> I don't even have a sockd.conf man page.
20:13 < pardis> clearly you're supposed to remotely clone lavaball's installed package list before replying
20:16 < lavaball> oh, sockd.conf is dante. 
20:16 < lavaball> my bad.
20:17 < lavaball> i got it recommend here, so i thought it was common knowledge.
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20:27 < lavaball> i guess nobody uses dante here. besides the man page not being satisfactory, it also doens't want to warning: addrisbindable(): cannot bind address: 10.0.0.2 (from address specification wg0): Can't assign requested address. when i put in re2 it works though. wg0 connection works and the ip is accurate. config says external: wg0. as i said, if i put in re2 it starts, wg0 though, i get the cannot bind ip error.
20:30 < fro> who is dante
20:31 < lavaball> one of my voice actor's cats. though he died.
20:31 < lavaball> also the name of a socks proxy server.
20:32 < lavaball> doesn't seem to like tunnels though. only physicial addresses work for external. wg0 and gre0 both get the same can't bind address error. also doesn't work if i put in the ip instead of the if.
20:33 < fro> bummer
20:33 < lavaball> i'm guessing there is an option i haven't found.
20:33 < lavaball> don't worry about it. i figure it out eventually.
20:33 < lavaball> or did you mean the dead cat? well, critters die. what can you do?
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20:36 < sibiria> that's a crap name for a cat. just like daniel, mike, ellenore or amanda
20:37 < lavaball> she's from la. what do you expect?
20:37 < sibiria> that explains a lot
20:37 < lavaball> can't complain though. helped me out without compensation. 
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20:40 < lavaball> i think this is a table problem. how do i tell the cat to use table 2 though.
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20:44 < fro> i think jeff is a good cat name
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21:59 < lavaball> how about tinyproxy. anyone using that?
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22:02 < lavaball> tinyproxy works and bind sthe address as requested.
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22:21 < lavaball> never mind. it did work at first, but now it doesn't anymore. magic!
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23:03 < iceman1> hello puffs
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23:03 < iceman1> how is everyone
23:04 < iceman1> I had a question in regarding FFS2 or alternatives solution. I am trying to create a solution for myself to keep files and backups but concern for bitrot and other things on the systems, any recommendations for a type of build?
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23:05 < iceman1> I dont want to use another OS or Linux distro for this. pretty happen with openbsd
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23:25 < sibiria> the only real protection against storage media bitrot is to store stuff at redundant locations
23:25 < thrig> (and to test restores)
23:26 < sibiria> personal advice: incremental backups come with problems
23:26 < sibiria> full backups are costlier, but safer
23:28 < iceman1> hmm ok.
23:28 < iceman1> i guess spinning rust is cheap enough
23:29 < sibiria> right, but also encrypted backups stored remotely
23:29 < synack> diskprices.com
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23:29 < sibiria> storj and diskblaze etc. are pretty affordable services
23:29 < thrig> or encrypted local backups if the usb drive goes on walkabout
23:30 < synack> I lost the gpg key I encrypted all of my pre-2015 backups with... still have the files and the public key, hoping that someday I'll be able to crack it
23:30 < sibiria> some day in an alternative quantum universe
23:31 < iceman1> yea just wish ffs2 was a little more robust.
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23:31 < sibiria> ffs is fine as long as the device isn't disconnected while you're writing to it!
23:31 < pardis> if you had started cracking it in 2015, you might be done by now
23:31 < synack> perhaps
23:31 < iceman1> anyone from the core dev would take PR for FFS2 if its good enough?
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23:32 < sibiria> i'm sure they would, if the changes were useful etc.
23:32 < tommyrot> try and see, you can mail it to the tech mailing list
23:32 < sibiria> why, you got a patch that introduces journaling for ffs? :P
23:32 < iceman1> lol
23:33 < iceman1> worst is that they say no right
23:33 < thrig> it's a two line shell script, but this chat is too small to contain it
23:33 < sibiria> yes and possibly theo drop-kicking you verbally
23:33 < iceman1> coming from other OS, i feel every other are going to crap IMP
23:33 < iceman1> Theo drop, I dont cry over spilled milk
23:33 < thrig> probably depends on what flavor of crap you like
23:34 < iceman1> how about no crap and just simple clean and safe stuff
23:34 < thrig> oh, that's the crap with a bad I/O stack and crummy usb support and the host crashes if you fullscreen an opengl app
23:35 < iceman1> as for Theo, I read the mail, also I seen worse
23:36 < iceman1> its best to have a conversion than ignore things
23:36 < pardis> I submitted a patch for ext2fs once, got an in-principle acceptance but it was never committed
23:36 < pardis> they are likely far more cautious with ffs2 as the existing code is so well-tested and changes can have severe implications if not properly vetted
23:38 < iceman1> ofcourse, but I think most could agree we do need a little better fs. not say a feature creep garbage but something to protect the data, thats all
23:38 < thrig> not that XFS ever went read-only, or reiser fs went derp, or netapp had a file that if anything touched the system crashed
23:38 < pardis> "need" might be a bit of a strong word
23:38 < iceman1> but easy said than done
23:38 < pardis> and remember that not every computer is your blazing-fast quad-core amd64
23:39 < iceman1> that is true
23:39 < pardis> minor conveniences on modern hardware can bring the entire system to a crawl on a luna88k or a landisk
23:39 < tommyrot> ah so this wasn't really about making simple backups but about some agenda
23:40 < tommyrot> and this patch should be written by "someone", right?
23:40 < iceman1> tommyrot no it wasnt a agenda,
23:41 < iceman1> regardless its just opinion in like everyone here, has one
23:42 < iceman1> I know its not a life changing idea or suggest, its just an opinion.
23:43 < pardis> it would be more in line with OpenBSD's goals to incrementally improve the existing I/O stack than to import a whole new filesystem that is useful on, at best, one-third of supported platforms
23:44 < pardis> there are plenty of other OSes that support nice features by not caring about older hardware
23:44 < iceman1> as for "t every computer is your blazing-fast quad-core amd64" not everyone has the money to have a lot drives or multi spare system.
23:44 < iceman1> "there are plenty of other OSes that support nice features by not caring about older hardware" agree on that
23:45 < iceman1> I work with Linux and now its more corporate than ever in my exp,  that all i got to say about Linux(no politics)
23:46 < iceman1> "it would be more in line with OpenBSD's goals to incrementally improve the existing I/O stack" agree as it would serve everyone bests
23:47 < iceman1> AFK
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--- Log closed Wed May 24 00:00:47 2023