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07:56 < byteskeptical> anyone else getting a core dump trying to run firefox on latest current?
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08:58 < byteskeptical> very strange getting a illegal opt code: 17172 firefox  PSIG  SIGILL SIG_DFL code=ILL_ILLOPC addr=0x819b252c10 trapno=21
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09:24 < byteskeptical> seems to be affecting mpv as well. 
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09:32 < yjgsjejdks> is fud army here?
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09:33 < yjgsjejdks> just to let you know spotted guys
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09:40 < xse> byteskeptical: just updated from ftp.fr and those work here '#1221: Wed Jun 7 00:12:50 MDT 2023'
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09:48 < lts> I think I will pass the opportunity to know spotted men
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10:07 < zelest> Perhaps a bit vague question, but how well does Linux run in vmd these days? I remember goofing around with that when vmd was new, but it was too much friction for any real use.
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10:29 < dennis> zelest: It's running smoothly for me
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10:30 < zelest> Sweet.. might worth playing a bit with it then :D
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10:30 < dennis> the only point of friction is that you only have serial for installation
10:31 < dennis> not all installers support serial straight out of the box. you might have to enable serial
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10:34 < dennis> or just go with some ready-to-go cloud-image. debians nocloud-image (found here: https://cloud.debian.org/images/cloud/bookworm/daily/latest/) has worked well for me.
10:36 < pardis> zelest: works better with https://github.com/voutilad/vmm_clock (makes the clock tick at a correct rate) and https://github.com/voutilad/virtio_vmmci (lets you use vmctl stop)
10:37 < zelest> Oh!
10:37 < zelest> Cheers for the heads up :)
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10:50 < byteskeptical> xse: out of curiosity do you have kern.wxabort=1?
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11:17 < xse> nah 0 by default, but they also work if i set it to 1
11:17 < xse> oops he left
11:18 < sibiria> zelest: i've been running devuan for a few years now. it runs well, but part of the trick is to change hardware timer on the host
11:19 < sibiria> it was necessary for me to avoid the vm crashing after some 14-20 days, and as a bonus it also became a bit more responsive and showed less clock drift
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11:31 < dkfjm> why is the installer so S   L    O       W?
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11:44 < sibiria> you're probably just fetching from a very slow mirror
11:49 < dkfjm> browser shows the mirrir is ok
11:49 < caze> What part is slow?
11:51 < dkfjm> the filesets download, it took about 20 minutes to get base73
11:52 < sibiria> you were definitely connected to a slow host then
11:54 < pardis> or your connection is slow
11:55 < pardis> or your machine has a buggy/poorly supported network interface
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12:10 < dkfjm> ok great, now it hanged
12:11 < caze> Well now you can play hangman.
12:12 < dkfjm> and it does not boot; let me restart the installer
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12:14 < dkfjm> it hanged again lol
12:15 < caze> What makes you think it's hanging?
12:17 < dkfjm> because it stops forever
12:18 < dkfjm> the last messages is "making all device nodes... done"
12:19 < pardis> and you waited forever to verify this?
12:20 < sibiria> sketchy hardware?
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12:22 < dkfjm> I see it is a common issue w/o solution
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13:07 < dkfjm> it turned to be oom issue
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13:10 < dkfjm> apparently 1 gb ram is not enough for installation
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13:14 < Lucas6023> dkfjm: it is
13:15 < Lucas6023> 512MB of RAM also is
13:15 < Lucas6023> you didn't state which architecture you're installing on, which network driver are you using and which mirror you're contacting
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13:24 < dkfjm> well it cannot finish the installation with 1024MB (amd64)
13:26 < sibiria> relinking the kernel is a bit hungry, and will touch swap memory on a 1GB system, but i think a little part of that is clang taking big bites when there's available RAM
13:28 < sibiria> clang/linker
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13:29 < sibiria> but i can assure you that you can start openbsd on <1GB
13:30 < sibiria> the relinking process will be slow when fighting for RAM
13:30 < sibiria> it's rather cumbersome already at 768 MB of RAM
13:30 < sibiria> but boot and relink it will
13:31 < CosmicDJ> most openbsd.amsterdam VMs have 1GB RAM... https://openbsd.amsterdam
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13:34 < dkfjm> instead of writing that nonsense you could setup a vm and test for yourself
13:34 < sibiria> what nonsense? i'm telling you it works because i use openbsd VMs on 1gb and less
13:35 -!- morte_ is now known as monkey_
13:35 < eea> same here, have an mx host with 512mb
13:35 < eea> kernel relinking does take a long time on it
13:35 < sibiria> note that i'm acknowledging that the host will be under a bit of duress during the kernel relinking right after boot. i'm not saying it's smooth, i'm just saying it will work
13:36 < sibiria> i recommend that you give it a bit of swap memory, even if just 256-512 mb
13:37 < eea> no swap is asking for OOM kills
13:37 < renaud_>  OOM kills is not an OpenBSD method :)
13:38 < eea> lol true, just my linux ptsd
13:39 < sibiria> it's ok. there are treatments for that. the doctor prescribes one blowfish - to be cuddled, not eaten
13:40 < dkfjm> it created a 256mb swap during install
13:40 < sibiria> are you running this inside a throttling EC2 on AWS running on fumes or something
13:40 < sibiria> if you have 1GB of RAM and 256MB of swap it sounds surprising that it's just stalling like that
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15:32 < dkfjm> the better question is, why does the installer hangs when whatever ti was doing dies due to oom?
15:34 < pardis> that sounds like an unreasonable assumption as to what is going on
15:35 < Lucas6023> 13:34 < dkfjm> instead of writing that nonsense you could setup a vm and test for yourself
15:35 < Lucas6023> not worth investing time imo
15:35 < pardis> and running VMs on 512M of RAM is extremely common, I do it too
15:38 < dkfjm> wget in the installed system downloads the files in a minute or so, vs 20+ during install
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15:40 < dkfjm> is there no way to remove a package without dependencies?
15:40 < thrig> compiling some modern stuff on tiny VMs might be a different story
15:41 < pardis> what do you mean by "remove a package without dependencies"?
15:41 < sibiria> dkfjm: did you verify that you accidentally didn't happen to be connected to a very slow mirror? you can specify your own endpoint to fetch packages from
15:42 < sibiria> for europe/eurasia i always recommend ftp.eu.openbsd.org because of how stable it is and often having plenty of bandwidth to spare
15:42 < dkfjm> I entered the mirror manually and it is stored in /etc/installurl
15:43 < pardis> ftp.eu.openbsd.org is also nice for its extensive archive of old releases
15:43 < sibiria> which mirror? if it's a cdn one you never know where you'll end up
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15:45 < dkfjm> it shows an empty page for me
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15:45 < sibiria> use /pub/ path
15:46 < dkfjm> nope my local mirror is faster; it is good to know there is archives
15:47 < sibiria> using the full installer is also an option to keep in mind
15:47 < sibiria> anyway, glad your install is finally running
15:48 < dkfjm> i'm gonna try the 32-bit version -- yes, I used 2 GB and it went well
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16:02 < dkfjm> the 32-bit version works with 1gb
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16:06 < Bradipo> 1GB of what?
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16:16 < crc> whszrtnwvl
16:17 < RhDoc> interesting... I've installed a VM lately just giving it 256MB RAM ("simple" dummy DNS server) and it is working smoothly
16:18 < sibiria> it will work, but the kernel relinking won't be quick
16:19 < dkfjm> also 64-bit version doesn't show download progress for some reason
16:19 < RhDoc> yeah, I realized that - but kernel relinking isn't something that's happening during operation - so okay for me
16:21 < sibiria> dkfjm: it definitely does. really sounds like something's weird with your host's hypervisor
16:21 < pardis> you might want to be more specific
16:21 < pardis> there are several 32-bit versions and several 64-bit versions
16:21 < sibiria> russian cloud provider running on elbrus cpus? :P
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16:25 < thrig> the dot in dot nyet
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16:33 < dkfjm> 7.3 I mean
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16:34 < manu1> hello
16:34 < sibiria> 7.3 has same download and install progress meter as always
16:35 < manu1> is openbsd a good choice for a laptop while studying CS?
16:35 < sibiria> though maybe your vm's console is not updating properly
16:35 < pardis> that is a solid maybe
16:35 < Bradipo> manu1: Depends on what your classes require.
16:36 < manu1> Bradipo: I think jdk and python mostly, maybe some php
16:36 < sibiria> dkfjm: SPILL THE BEANS, BREZHNEV, ADMIT THAT YOU'RE PERFORMING BLOWFISH EXPERIMENTS ON ELBRUS CLOUD
16:36 < pardis> all of those should run well on OpenBSD
16:36 < Bradipo> manu1: If you are doing a "self-study" of CS, then absolutely OpenBSD is great for CS. :-)
16:36 < manu1> :)
16:36 < pardis> if you also need teleconferencing with Zoom, or specific java or python libraries that rely on Linuxisms, then maybe not
16:37 < manu1> hmm, i was thinking about if there is something like "jails" for freebsd?
16:37 < Bradipo> I use Zoom on OpenBSD.  'Taint pretty, but it works.
16:37 < pardis> no, there is no equivalent to jails
16:37 < pardis> Bradipo: that's surprising to me, given how much of a headache it is to get working on Linux, which it purports to support
16:38 < manu1> Bradipo: does it run native or how do you run it?
16:38 < Bradipo> Yep, it does "work".  Sometimes causes the browser to crash, but it does surprisingly work given the right incantations.
16:38 < Bradipo> In the browser only as far as I'm aware.
16:39 < Bradipo> I think I had to turn on webasm to get Zoom working.
16:39 < manu1> someone on the freebsd channels told me that openbsd has better laptop support, e.g. it is better suited for an X250 don't know if this is just his opinion or it really is
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16:40 < Bradipo> pardis: Just to clarify, by Zoom works, I mean it works in a browser, not using any native client.
16:42 < oldlaptop> manu1: Perhaps the most likely thing to be a problem if you're stuck in CS academia is JavaFX, which (so far as I know) doesn't work
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16:43 < oldlaptop> (and given that oracle seems to want it to go away, may never work)
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16:43 < oldlaptop> Of course #openbsd is going to tell you openbsd has good laptop support relative to FreeBSD. (It'll be right to do so, but of course I would say that wouldn't I?)
16:44 < manu1> but is it "alien" to run openbsd on a laptop? i feel like most people just use it on their servers
16:44 < oldlaptop> Thinkpads tend to be what OpenBSD developers use to develop OpenBSD, so they're especially good bets as a class.
16:44 < Bradipo> manu1: I run OpenBSD on a laptop.  Does that make me "alien"?
16:45 < manu1> :)
16:45 < manu1> Bradipo: maybe you came with that UFO the us air force found?
16:45 < oldlaptop> It's reasonably common both among random users (who don't matter that much for this purpose) and among OpenBSD developers (who do) to run OpenBSD on laptops
16:46 < oldlaptop> the rather nasty joke would be that OpenBSD is developed on thinkpads, and FreeBSD is developed on a VM under macos
16:46 < oldlaptop> (I imagine that's not an /entirely/ fair characterization of freebsd)
16:47 < ClaudioM> One of the reasons I like OpenBSD is because it's the daily driver for the devs.
16:47 < ClaudioM> And on bare metal
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16:48 < thrig> dog fooding is a thing
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16:48 < ClaudioM> Didn't want to refer to it as that, but yes. :-p
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16:49 < oldlaptop> (surprising in retrospect that microsoft had so much... uh, self-awareness when coining that term)
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16:50 < manu1> thinking about to get one more of those thinkcentre tiny usff's just to run openbsd :)
16:51 < oldlaptop> I don't think "a lot of developers use thinkpads" implies there's any particular reason to buy lenovo's non-laptop products for openbsd
16:51 < ClaudioM> I have it running on my old Eee PC 901 and it runs very well. Everything is supported except for bluetooth, but that's by design
16:52 < ClaudioM> It also runs on this bargain-Walmart Evoo laptop with a Ryzen CPU.
16:52 < oldlaptop> (Nor any reason not to, not one particular to OpenBSD anyhow. I'd expect them to work as well as any other muSFF dronebox, e.g. dells or HPs)
16:53 < manu1> oldlaptop: they are cheap
16:53 < oldlaptop> thinkpads in particular are just somewhat more likely to have a developer daily-driving them, which has obvious implications for whether and how soon (say) obscure ACPI bugs get caught
16:53 < manu1> 50 euro here :)
16:54 < oldlaptop> A lot to be said for getting offcast droneboxes in general, I think
16:54 < Bradipo> I've never worried too much about hardware until I find something that doesn't work. :-)
16:54 < oldlaptop> it's not like they become automatically useless when Lots Of Cubicles Inc. decides it is now three years old and therefore must be replaced
16:55 < oldlaptop> (or the Ministry of Cubicles or Federal Cubicle Bureau or whatever)
16:55 < oldlaptop> the same applies to laptops, of course :P although they're a bit more likely to be beaten up
16:56 < thrig> (rumor has it Visual SourceSafe was not dog fooded)
16:56 < oldlaptop> I get the vague impression their internal network had a lot of unix on it into the '90s
16:59 < sibiria> ClaudioM: what model is that? the evoo with ryzen
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17:01 < sibiria> just searching "evoo" on walmart.com provides various olive oils as primary hits. noie
17:01 < sibiria> noice*
17:01 < Bradipo> Yeah, evoo seems like a poorly chosen term.
17:02 < Bradipo> Already in use by olive oil industry.
17:04 < dkfjm> it is comet lake cpu
17:05 < dkfjm> and the downloads work fine in the installed system
17:06 < ClaudioM> sibiria: EVC141-12
17:07 < ClaudioM> Mine has the BK suffix as it's the dark gray
17:07 < ClaudioM> Bradipo: The same laptop design I've seen wit hthe "Motile" brand name. It's a generic design.
17:08 < sibiria> chinese OEM likely, yeah
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17:08 < ClaudioM> yep
17:08 < ClaudioM> Surprisingly, it has a NVME slot available
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17:10 < ClaudioM> The mSATA slot was populated with Windows 10 SSD, but I installed a NVME SSD for OpenBSD.
17:10 < ClaudioM> Dual-booting via the UEFI boot manager
17:11 < oldlaptop> Odd to be seeing mSATA at all nowadays
17:12 < ClaudioM> Yeah.
17:12 < ClaudioM> I bought it refurbished for US $275
17:13 < ClaudioM> It's not bad for what it is. 
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17:22 < ClaudioM> the laptop itself was made in 2020 apparently.
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17:56 < Bradipo> Seems like they could have just used yes(1) for this? https://research.exoticsilicon.com/articles/memory_special_devices
17:58 < oldlaptop> seems that would even be easier, no funky "priming" step
17:58 < Bradipo> Though, I suppose yes(1) does delimit the output with newlines...
17:58 < Bradipo> So really, yes isn't equivalent in that regard.
17:58 < oldlaptop> I don't believe it needs to
17:58 < oldlaptop> (hm, yes it does)
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18:00 < oldlaptop> Perhaps yes would still be "too slow" if jot is "too slow"?
18:00 < Bradipo> Still, this works pretty quickly: yes A | tr -d \\n  | dd bs=1m count=128
18:01 < Bradipo> Right, I suppose jot may be another alternative.
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18:09 < dkfjm> there is no optional dependencies in openbsd?
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18:10 < uwharrie> no, openbsd uses package flavors instead
18:11 < uwharrie> so there are things like foo-nox for package foo without X support, or bar-iconv for bar with libiconv support
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18:25 < Bradipo> In some cases, however, I have wanted to uninstall a package upon which something depends without also uninstalling that something.
18:25 < Bradipo> For example, exmh depends on nmh, but I cannot temporarily uninstall nmh without also uninstalling exmh.
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18:52 < uwharrie> I've thrown together a Perl script for doing that for things like fzf that have an unnecessary dependency on bash
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18:57 < dkfjm> áre there some fundamental problems with bsds that prevent normal package dependencies?
18:57 < thrig> what are normal package dependencies?
18:58 < dkfjm> mandatory, optional, hierarchical
18:59 < thrig> how is that normal?
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19:00 < dkfjm> because that how dependencies work
19:01 < thrig> if you say so...
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19:04 < Bradipo> I don't think there is such a thing as "normal".
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19:05 < thrig> I await an argument less circular
19:06 < Bradipo> Aren't all dependencies hierarchical?
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19:13 < Tekk> Bradipo: Not necessarily
19:13 < Tekk> ffmpeg has a dep on gstreamer, which has a dep on ffmpeg
19:13 < Tekk> For example
19:14 < Tekk> (Idon't think ffmpeg actually depends on gstreamer, but I've seen similar situations)
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19:19 < Lucas6023> I really like that OpenBSD ports doesn't have the concept of "install recommends"
19:20 < Lucas6023> that being said, there are cases were some packages can use some other packages that are installed in the system, without having an explicit dependency linkage
19:21 < Lucas6023> gajim and py3-axolotl being an example (Gajim does XMPP, py3-axolotl is used for implementing OMEMO)
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19:23 < Tekk> Yeah. I don't think it'd be bad to have a facility for telling you recommends
19:23 < Tekk> but installing it by default is silly
19:23 < Tekk> Could use flavors for that too
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19:31 < dkfjm> perl cannot be uninstalled due to xfce being installed - that is not how dependencies should work
19:32 < oldlaptop> perl cannot be uninstalled because it's part of OpenBSD (among other things the package manager is written in perl)
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19:33 < lavaball> oh right. that i wanted to look into as well. so much to do still.
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19:41 < Tekk> dkfjm: so your problem is that OpenBSD has a stable, integrated base system?
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19:46 < dkfjm> packages are not the base system?
19:46 < Tekk> Correct
19:46 < Tekk> Packages are packages. OpenBSD is OpenBSD
19:46 < Tekk> The former are purely pre-built ports for your convenience
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19:50 < Bradipo> Is there no document on www.openbsd.org that describes the "philosophy" behind OpenBSD and it's base system vs. addons?
19:50 < uwharrie> it's not really specific to OpenBSD
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19:51 < Bradipo> Then documenting it is even simpler, just make a reference to the public document that describes the practice. :-)
19:52 < uwharrie> making fundamental parts of the OS like the kernel, a shell, "core utilities", etc look and act the same as third party add-ons from a packaging perspective is a recent Linux development
19:52 < Tekk> FreeBSD jumped on that too, didn't it?
19:52 < Tekk> Everything's in their package manager now
19:53 < Tekk> djhankb: think of it this way: Linux had to be the way it is because there *is* no Linux. It's just a jumble of packages people write to an iso
19:53 < Tekk> the cvs tree of openbsd *is* openbsd
19:53 < thrig> openbsd lacks the severe split-brain between linux kernel and linux userland, for one
19:53 < oldlaptop> uwharrie: It makes sense in Linux-land, where basically all of those things actually *are* third-party products. (Debian still has at *least* two kernels, although they appear to be finally giving up on kfreebsd.)
19:54 < uwharrie> it doesn't have to be that way in linux though
19:55 < uwharrie> OpenBSD vendors in third-party stuff and doesn't treat it separately from first-party maintained software.
19:56 < oldlaptop> Similarly, OpenBSD "could" treat libc or ksh as packages
19:56 < oldlaptop> but it makes sense not to
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19:57 < brocashelm> just as xenocara and xenodm aren't packages, but essential to work
19:57 < uwharrie> right, so the perspective that OpenBSD is somehow "not normal" when compared to Linux is about as accurate as saying Linux is not normal when compared to Windows
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20:00 < sibiria> openbsd works without xenocara installed, but you'll have to wrangle syspatch/sysupgrade a little bit
20:01 < oldlaptop> you could just (gasp) do what we all did until five minutes ago and not use sysupgrade
20:01 < uwharrie> and there's been talks of taking that ability away
20:01 < oldlaptop> (which is what the upgrade FAQ says to do if you insist on not having all sets installed)
20:01 < brocashelm> imagine that, just don't "upgrade" and keep using your system
20:02 < oldlaptop> brocashelm: (until these figurative "five minutes ago" there was no such thing as sysupgrade, you just did what it does yourself)
20:03 < brocashelm> rolling release linux distros seem to have really gotten people comfortable with the idea that newer = "better" (which isn't always true)
20:03 < oldlaptop> sysupgrade doesn't really accommodate my wacky habit of building my own snapshots (unless I build all my own packages too, anyway), so I don't use it on my -current systems
20:03 < oldlaptop> the /horror/
20:04 < Bradipo> brocashelm: I only ever upgrade when I deem it necessary, not just because.
20:04 < brocashelm> i'm on 7.3-current so i just run pkg_add -u and carry on
20:04 < Bradipo> Even with Linux.
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20:04 < brocashelm> bradipo: true, but the mentality with newer linux systems that try to get the user to chase after the latest and greatest software
20:05 < brocashelm> especially arch users
20:05 < Bradipo> Yeah, not necessarily unique to Linux though.  Windows has the same problem.
20:05 < brocashelm> right
20:05 < thrig> newer == better has been an Enlightenment selling point for a few years now
20:05 < zelest> Evening
20:05 < oldlaptop> (Windows is where the crazies who demand everyone accommodate twenty-year-old versions all seem to live)
20:05 < brocashelm> i think it's a common social problem known as FOMO (fear of missing out)
20:06 < brocashelm> so a system like debian is "very old and ancient packages" just because they were build 1-2 years ago
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20:12 < sibiria> i think debian as of late strikes a decent balance between "not too old" and "tried and true"
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21:09 < ecdhe> oldlaptop: still extracting stream endpoints off the iheart pages?
21:10 < oldlaptop> Hm?
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21:10 < oldlaptop> https://github.com/oldlaptop/iheart-mplayer is me if that's what you're asking; as far as I know it still works, but I haven't used it lately.
21:11 < oldlaptop> It doesn't do anything with their webpages, anyhow.
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21:39 < zelest> Heh, I must say that a minimal install of archlinux in vmd.. with the kernel mods for clock and vmmci.. then do X forwarding to the host (native, without ssh) works really well for running various things that doesn't work in OpenBSD yet :)
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21:45 < Bradipo> I guess I don't know what I'm missing...
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23:45 < manu2> is this how you imagine the default openbsd guy? :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqRJDbtZW3o
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23:48 < brocashelm> i also watch the openbsd guy's videos
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23:50 < manu2> brocashelm: he has become very inactive hmm
23:50 -!- djhankb [~djhankb@208.113.164.68] has joined #openbsd
23:50 -!- ArtGravity [~artgravit@user/artgravity] has quit []
23:50 < manu2> oh it is a different one, ty looks interesting
23:51 -!- memset [~memset@gateway/tor-sasl/memset] has joined #openbsd
23:52 < brocashelm> np
23:52 < brocashelm> he's also on odysee
23:53 -!- drathir_tor [~drathir@wireguard/tunneler/drathir] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:57 < manu2> also good talk from xhr https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0AtaEhFH8s
--- Log closed Thu Jun 08 00:00:10 2023