--- Log opened Wed Jun 28 00:00:38 2023
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00:44 < wakaflaka> ofcourse everyone is included
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00:44 < wakaflaka> i got it working in the commmandline (chatgpt-4-browser)
00:44 < wakaflaka> its basically rewritten my entire app ad made it so much more organized and beauiful
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00:45 < wakaflaka> it probably wont find anything in openbsd's source, but  we shouldnt understiate it
00:45 < wakaflaka> im close to saying that chatgpt saved my life!
00:46 < wakaflaka> lets try?
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07:03 < kodcode> Good morning.
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07:16 < psionic> Good till I work from home :D
07:17 < psionic> going in the office at 7 would NOT be a good morning
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11:45 < cpet> psionic: I'm here at 630
11:45 < cpet> Smoking a cigar but still here 
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11:54 < lacanye> i'm hitting this juul pod i've been refilling with more economical nic salts
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12:14 < cpet> Sounds kinky 
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14:17 < lavaball> really nice to see that openbsd is very much present on 4chan.
14:17 < cpet> 4chan
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14:18 < lavaball> whenever a windows is dumb treat pops up, someone mentions openbsd. i would, but i can't post there.
14:18 < lavaball> threat
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14:34 < cpet> ??
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14:36  * oldlaptop would greatly prefer that 4chan not be present on #openbsd
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14:39 < p4x639> i'm already glad that there is still irc and it is not just a bridged alternative to discord with some silly bot
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14:40 < lavaball> there is no discord for openbsd.
14:40 -!- Nei [~ailin@openSUSE/member/ailin-nemui] has joined #openbsd
14:40 < oldlaptop> There isn't really discord for anything other than the GoogVM.
14:41 < lavaball> i saw it on linux. 
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14:44 < p4x639> glad there is no discord
14:45 < p4x639> life could be so simple, why do we need social networks? people could just stick to their own blogs
14:45 < lavaball> do you really want to get into that?
14:46 < sibiria> lavaball: do you mean the native client software, or an openbsd oriented discord server?
14:46 < sibiria> i'm sure i saw an instance of the latter
14:46 < lavaball> client software. 
14:46 < cpet> Why not 
14:46 < sibiria> ok. but that's fine imo
14:46 < sibiria> while massive, the web application still works great and has support for all the things one wants
14:46 < p4x639> tried to setup mastodon on my own, it requires tons of stuff to run
14:46 < lavaball> i wasn't complaining.
14:47 < thrig> Large Annoying Modern Protocol
14:47 < lavaball> i'm the "current word for 31337" individual here. i don't even have a phone.
14:47 < p4x639> i see openbased as the answer to many simple things
14:47 < p4x639> as long as it runs emacs i'm happy
14:47 < lavaball> oh? i use nvim. let's fight to the death!
14:47 < sibiria> lavaball: not even a VLN and a SIP vector to manage it?
14:48 < lavaball> a what what
14:48 < lavaball> ?
14:48 < p4x639> couldn't stand looking at lua for a sec
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14:48 < lavaball> you had to get technical...
14:49 < lavaball> well, i figured out how to make numbers in a row increment by 50 lately!
14:49 < lavaball> beat that!
14:49 < sibiria> i don't think i can. i don't even think a scientist could
14:49 < lavaball> no, tell me about this vln and the sip. what are those?
14:50 -!- cschutijser [~irc@mail.schutijser.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
14:50 < sibiria> SIP as in session initiation protocol, the thingy used most often for IP telephony
14:50 < sibiria> VLN = virtual long number - a mobile phone number not tucked into a sim card, but still reachable on the public telephony network
14:50 < lavaball> oh, i should have been more accurate.i have a land line.
14:50 < lavaball> no cell phone.
14:51 < p4x639> the only thing struggling before i go to openbsd: it seems it doesn't support any other filesystem than its own
14:51 < lavaball> openbsd is like the prison planet in alien 3.
14:52 < sibiria> it supports some of microsoft's file systems, and some of linux'
14:52 < sibiria> ish
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14:53 < lavaball> talking about linux. i'm doing gentoo right now. is compiling openbsd much harder?
14:53 -!- lac [lac@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/lacanye] has quit [Quit: leaving]
14:53 < cpet> No
14:53 < cpet> One cmd and wait 
14:53 < cpet> And you don't get people mad at you for not calling it gnu Linux 
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14:54 < lavaball> yet i get people who need every aspect of a question spoon fed to them, because they are unable to read the context around it.
14:54 < oldlaptop> sibiria: The discord "native client" is the web application.
14:55 < oldlaptop> lavaball: There is, in fact, an FAQ chapter and a manual page on the topic of "compiling openbsd".
14:55 < sibiria> almost. the electron host has access to stuff you can't access via normal browser
14:55 -!- seninha [~seninha@user/seninha] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:55 < sibiria> e.g. system bus interfacing, snooping on processes etc.
14:56 < thrig> oh boy security problems
14:56 < sibiria> love it. give me more
14:56  * oldlaptop does not want discord doing either of those things, and does not see why it should want to
14:56 < sibiria> oldlaptop: users apparently find social value in it, and i can understand it even if it's not for me
14:56 < cpet> lavaball: sounds like #freebsd 
14:57 < oldlaptop> What social value would they find in snooping on processes?
14:57 < sibiria> for example showing their current game being played, or the current music winamp/whatever is playing, just to mention anything off the top of my head
14:57 < cpet> Damn people still use winamp ?
14:57 < sibiria> that's not for *them*, just pointing out that electron framework can do such tings
14:57 < thrig> just like people had annoying irc scripts for back in the day
14:57  * oldlaptop wonders how long webdbus will take
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14:58 < sibiria> electron = "browser" on steroids with tentacles reaching deeper into host OS
14:58 < cpet> IrcN and obsidian for ircii ?
14:58 < oldlaptop> (dbus would be the only reasonable way to get "the current music winamp/whatever is playing" in a freedesktop-oid world)
14:58 < thrig> incorrect! they could tee your audio stream to a cloud server and then analyze it there with AI
14:58 < cpet> Bleh 
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14:59 < oldlaptop> thrig: I would classify this as "unreasonable" on multiple levels
14:59 < oldlaptop> which wouldn't stop them, but never mind that
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14:59 < thrig> they would probably agree to disagree
15:00 < oldlaptop> I mean, even in evil mode, they're spending their bandwidth and computrons
15:00 < oldlaptop> AI ain't cheap
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15:01 < thrig> fly by night carbon fiber AI
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15:17 < pardis> oldlaptop: I use Discord with BitlBee, not sure if that counts as "Discord for something other than the GoogVM" to you
15:18 < pardis> but it runs well-ish on OpenBSD
15:18 < pardis> BitlBee segfaults sometimes, but that's to be expected with how much random garbage you have to dlopen to get a reasonable selection of protocols
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15:18  * oldlaptop was given to understand that the use of 'unofficial' clients like that was viewed as a banhammer offense by discord-the-company
15:19 < pardis> it might be in theory, but I'm not banned yet
15:19 < pardis> and I've been using it for years
15:19 < oldlaptop> the last time I had a reason to use discord I would have done the same (IIRC - don't remember if I used bitlbee specifically or not anymore)
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15:29 < p4x639> neither does it support ext4 nor ntfs and i'm not interested in some weird slow fuse hack
15:29 < p4x639> one really has to be submissive to become openbased
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15:38 < oldlaptop> p4x639: OpenBSD has read-only nfts support.
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15:38 < oldlaptop> Some ext4 filesystems will mount read-only too, although most linuxes create filesystems that openbsd can't mount by default nowadays.
15:39 < p4x639> all i want to run is some miniflux, sycnthing and dwm, could use every other os as well for it
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15:41 < oldlaptop> ext2 is a reasonable common ground for most free unixoids where UNIX-style semantics are needed; fat32 remains about the only filesystem you can universally expect read/write support for (outside ancient msdos/windows limited to fat16)
15:41 < thrig> or various Enterprise printers that only do fat16
15:42 < oldlaptop> (wow)
15:43 < oldlaptop> even those fifty-cent mp3 player things speak fat32, what's their excuse?
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15:43 < thrig> Enterprise
15:43 < oldlaptop> is fat32 not old enough to be enterprise-ready?
15:44 < p4x639> i guess openbsd is usually used by people who program C, have some sort of high education and work as opsec guy for multi billion dollar company who pays very well
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15:45 < d2crypt> p4x639: ye-yeah that's a perfect description of me... uncanny... 
15:45 < oldlaptop> I'm not sure why you'd guess that.
15:45 -!- b50d [~b50d@62.96.54.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:46 < d2crypt> I'm also terribly good looking
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15:47 < d2crypt> s/good//
15:47 < cpet> Lies 
15:47 < cpet> We need a picture with you next to at least 5 girls or no go 
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15:47 -!- sjg [~sjg@user/sjg] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
15:48  * d2crypt logs into stable diffusion
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15:50 < p4x639> the only guy i know from real life using openbsd is drkh... be careful not to mention him and he seems to be more into electronics, that's where my stereotype of openbsd user comes from
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15:53 < p4x639> but i don't know if it will be as usable as gnu i mean i already use dwm but some users mention web browser are laggy for some reason
15:54 < p4x639> in this case, i really wonder if someone uses it as desktop
15:54 < pardis> it's probably more productive to install it and find out what problems you have than to wonder aloud to 719 strangers
15:55 < d2crypt> I came to your conversation late, but I've been using openbsd as a desktop for years, in addition to it running on all my servers, vps and router
15:57 < cpet> Why not ? 
15:58 < cpet> Liberachattera always enjoy that 
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16:00 < d2crypt> p4x639: firefox is snappy for me, i5-4590 w/ 8gb ddr3 and no dedicated graphics
16:01 < cpet> Ddr3 ? Get with the times man ddr5
16:02 < cpet> Depends on what your doing you don't need fancy hw for YouTube's which is why I don't understand why people have such hefty video cards and use a BSD 
16:02 < ClaudioM> GZDoom ;-)
16:03 < oldlaptop> games/0ad and games/fs2open might be reasons
16:03 < oldlaptop> (I know offhand the latter can be made to tax most any video hardware you care to throw at it)
16:03 < oldlaptop> which is a neat trick for a game engine from approximately 1998
16:04 < cpet> Come on now those aren't real resource hogging games 
16:04 < oldlaptop> fs2open can and will tax modern video hardware
16:04 < cpet> So will uncle Sam 
16:05 < ClaudioM> But yes, I've been running OpenBSD on old laptops without much issue for a few years now. It ran nicely on an old Dell Latitude E6410 which has a 1st-gen Core i5
16:05 < ClaudioM> And I'm just an end user who likes BSD
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16:16 < pardis> I used to use OpenBSD with a dedicated graphics card simply because I wanted a second monitor and my motherboard had one graphics output
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16:16 < pardis> wasn't top-of-the-line hardware or anything, but the need was justified
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17:26 < wakaflaka> https://github.com/openbsd/src is nice to have!
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17:35 < d2crypt> i like my i5-4950 because 4 physical cores
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17:45 < brocashelm> claudiom: thanks for clarifying about hardware. i just got a dell latitude 5490 with an i5-7300u, so i think it might be a good system to throw it on
17:47 < ClaudioM> brocashelm: it absolutely would.
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17:49 < holsta> d2crypt: define "firefox is snappy"? Say, what score does https://browserbench.org/Speedometer2.1/ give you?
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18:02 < riceandbeans> On firefox I got 44.8 on that speedometer test...
18:02 < cpet> Damn man you needs more speeds 
18:02 < riceandbeans> I want to test without extensions enabled
18:06 < p4x639> where does the delusion come from then that browers are laggy on openbsd?
18:06 < p4x639> this guys says on his X270 it takes 10 secs to load a browser https://www.coreystephan.com/openbsd-thinkpad/
18:06 < cpet> OpenBsd isn't meant for speed any ways 
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18:07 < p4x639> i don't need speed, but waiting 10 secs for a browser is meh
18:07 < schillingklaus> as long as it ius faster than my brain, it is ok
18:07 < riceandbeans> With no extensions I get 55.8
18:07 < cpet> So waiting is the issue here 
18:07 < p4x639> riceandbeans: 55 seconds?? O_O
18:08 < riceandbeans> 55 'runs / minute ' whatever that thing means on speedometer
18:08 < cpet> Sounds like an io issue 
18:08 < riceandbeans> Anyway, I just make a request and then sit back and sip my coffee
18:08 < cpet> Ok
18:08 < riceandbeans> And by the time I set the coffee mug back down, the page is loaded
18:09 < p4x639> coreystephanphd: hey
18:09 < brocashelm> if i installed openbsd partitions as ext2, would they be picked up by gparted?
18:09 < cpet> Look he has a PhD we should all care about that 
18:09 < cpet> OpenBsd doesn't support that 
18:09 < sibiria> riceandbeans: ok but do you sip or gulp the whole thing in one fell swoop?!?
18:10 < cpet> OpenBsd main fs is ufs2
18:10 < schillingklaus> ext2 is openbsd compatible???????????
18:10 < brocashelm> i meant using a linux program like gparted to work with openbsd partitions
18:10 < riceandbeans> sibiria: sip lol
18:10 < sibiria> schillingklaus: better way to put it is: openbsd has full ext2 support
18:10 < cpet> Yes that works 
18:10 < p4x639> cpet: taking in mind that it takes years to get one, not really funny appreciated to make fun of
18:10 < cpet> p4x639: ok noted 
18:11 < thrig> 10 seconds to get a bloat browser up is fast. the 2009 macbook with a spinny metal disk took a lot longer
18:11 < cpet> But then again OpenBsd has a lot of over head 
18:11 < oldlaptop> brocashelm: I'm not aware offhand of any clicky-GUI tools that understand disklabels.
18:11 < cpet> So even those 10 secs is fast 
18:12 < oldlaptop> parted will be able to manage the OpenBSD 'slice' in the MBR or GPT partition table, however.
18:12 < cpet> Don't think it can actually manipulate it 
18:12 < cpet> p4x639: note has been removed but thanks for trying 
18:13  * oldlaptop wouldn't want root on ext2, but then again you'd have to go waaaaaaaaay out of your way to arrange for that
18:13 < d2crypt> holsta: 60.2
18:13 < d2crypt> ?? 3.4Y
18:13 < cpet> Don't think it's the fs 
18:13 < brocashelm> sorry, i guess i was thinking of ext2fs (which is supported)
18:13 < p4x639> cpet: you know that your behaviour won't do openbsd a favor? 
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18:14 < cpet> p4x639: do we have to do the noted thing again ? 
18:14 < brocashelm> i still need a gui to work with openbsd partitions at ease, since i did automatic partitioning and realized swap never gets used (not even like 1 mb out of 8 gb), /usr/local could be extended more
18:14 < cpet> brocashelm: what ext do you have installed 
18:14 < brocashelm> cpet: i actually use the ffs2 fs types
18:15 < thrig> ha! 15.5 on the speed test. beat that.
18:15 < brocashelm> i wouldn't worry about ext2/3/4 if i had a newbie-friendly way of managing those partitions
18:15 < cpet> Same thing just names different ufs2 is ffs with some added bits think it's a freebsd thing 
18:15 < oldlaptop> brocashelm: There isn't such a thing, as far as I'm aware. You should be able to accomplish what you want with disklabel(8) and growfs(8), assuming what you want is actually reasonable.
18:15 < riceandbeans> thrig: you win man
18:15 < p4x639> cpet: welcome to my ignore list, take your notes, there will be enough time for that
18:15 < thrig> (I set the cpu to low)
18:15 < cpet> p4x639: awesome man thank you 
18:15 < oldlaptop> (What you want is unlikely to be very reasonable, since you're unlikely to have either (a) nothing but free space or (b) nothing you don't mind deleting after /usr/local.)
18:16 < brocashelm> especially if i were to, say, dual boot between openbsd and linux
18:16 < riceandbeans> That's heresy
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18:16 < cpet> Doesn't Linux run in a vm ?
18:17 < riceandbeans> Shun the non believer
18:17 < cpet> I would run it in a vm rather than dual boot 
18:17 < cpet> OpenBsd 's vm should be able to 
18:17 < brocashelm> oldlaptop: maybe i'll do a reinstall and manual partitioning. can swap exist as a swapfile, like on linux?
18:17 < oldlaptop> brocashelm: If you want specific advice about messing with your partition layout, you'd need to describe it pretty specifically first.
18:17 < oldlaptop> I'm not aware of support for putting swap in a file, offhand.
18:18 < brocashelm> ok, i can go with a swap partition. just wanting to keep partition counts as low as possible
18:18 < cpet> I'm sure if you give it some load it'll use the swap 
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18:18 < schillingklaus> i dualboot more than 2 systems.... could never get along with vm stuff
18:18 < brocashelm> i still have to use linux for things openbsd can't do, sadly
18:19 < oldlaptop> You might be able to arrange for such a silly thing, but you'd be in you-get-to-keep-both-pieces-when-it-breaks territory.
18:19 < oldlaptop> "Keeping partition counts low" is not a good guidepost for openbsd partitioning.
18:19 < cpet> OpenBsd is slow cause it was never meant to be a fast os 
18:19 < oldlaptop> (Besides the constraint that you can't go past the letter p.)
18:19 < cpet> It was meant to be secure 
18:20 < cpet> So what's the issue with the 10 sec thing ?
18:20 < cpet> Have you tried current, ? Really doubt reinstalls and removing swap will fix it 
18:20 < brocashelm> then, i'll just rearrange partition sizes
18:20 < GnarledHorn> I have one-big partition on a small fanless,headless industrial computer. I want to correct that. What's a strategy I could use? Boot to single user and copy everything to a ramdisk, then repartition and copy it back? Something else? 
18:20 < brocashelm> and yes, cpet, i use 7.3-current
18:20 < oldlaptop> cpet: What do you think the "problem" to be "fixed" is, exactly?
18:20 < sibiria> brocashelm: remember, openbsd partitions are not the same as primary/secondary partitions you're familiar with
18:20 < cpet> That could be why current has a bunch of debug shit on 
18:21 < cpet> Removing Swap won't fix it 
18:21 < oldlaptop> GnarledHorn: I wouldn't want to use a ramdisk, but that's a reasonable outline, I think.
18:22 < brocashelm> and also, my installation is on an old hdd. thinking of moving it over to a sata ssd, or better yet, m.2
18:22 < GnarledHorn> oldlaptop: I might have a suitable usb disk around here I could use instead. 
18:22 < oldlaptop> You'd want to take care with you options to cp/tar/whatever you choose to use, so as not to hose up ownership and permissions and so on.
18:22 < cpet> GnarledHorn:I've with it if it's an ind machine 
18:22 < oldlaptop> If it's reasonable to just nuke-and-pave, that's probably easier.
18:22 < GnarledHorn> point taken. I've got the installed package list and I could pull /home and /etc and probably be good to go
18:23 < cpet> List of packages as well 
18:23 < brocashelm> i'm not too hung up on speed. i don't have the "latest and greatest" hardware; i can survive 10 seconds of loading time, as long as it works
18:23 < cpet> Ok cool 
18:23 < brocashelm> if i want speed or "convenience", that's what linux is for
18:24 < oldlaptop> brocashelm: Incidentally, I wouldn't worry too much about spending extra money for an NVMe SSD. They're not faster enough in most workloads to be worth spending extra on.
18:24 < oldlaptop> (With that said you don't necessarily spend extra on one these days.)
18:25 < oldlaptop> I certainly wouldn't spend extra on M.2 (which is just a form factor - that edge connector can carry PCIe, SATA, or even USB or other strange things) unless you have a laptop or something in which that's the only option.
18:25 < brocashelm> but to optimize openbsd for conventional desktop usage would be awesome. i got xfce 4.18 running and it works 98% of the time; it does sometimes get stuck on the panel when i want to click on an applet (like places or whiskermenu), but other than that, it's quite close enough to my experience on linux
18:25 < brocashelm> oldlaptop: yeah, the dell i just picked up supports m.2
18:26 < brocashelm> so i could use the m.2 for the os and the sata for personal data
18:26 < oldlaptop> This, for example, is just a SATA SSD, even though it happens to be a gumstick M.2 board. https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-CT1000MX500SSD4-PC4-21300-CT2K16G48FD8266-Compatible/dp/B084KVVGCZ/
18:26 < oldlaptop> (and I guess they're throwing in some RAM modules, whatever.)
18:27 < oldlaptop> Given the choice between that and the 2.5" HDD-replacement form factor, you want either the cheapest one or whichever one fits in the machine you need it in, they won't perform differently.
18:27 < brocashelm> ya, i got the crucial mx500 ssds and they're very robust
18:27 < brocashelm> that makes sense
18:28 < cpet> I have a firecuda 
18:28 < oldlaptop> If a NVMe disk (which is the dominant standard for PCIe-connected SSDs nowadays) is more expensive than an MX500, I wouldn't bother with it.
18:28 < oldlaptop> with that said, there are some *very* inexpensive NVMe disks these days.
18:29 < sibiria> brocashelm, oldlaptop: swapfiles work on openbsd. though i don't know how well they PERFORM
18:29 < oldlaptop> Intel's '670p' goes up to 2TB at... US$70?!
18:30 < oldlaptop> sibiria: Ah, I see -t there.
18:30 < oldlaptop> So that's reasonable, then. https://man.openbsd.org/man8/swapctl.8
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18:30 < sibiria> oldlaptop: or just replace device node with file system path in fstab, rest being same as for dedicated label
18:31 < sibiria> e.g. /swappy none swap sw
18:31 < sibiria> (after first creating said file...)
18:31 < cpet> Format as swap swal on bleh add to fstab 
18:31 < sibiria> presumably it will be notably slower than direct-to-disk dedicated swap, having to go through FFS/2
18:32 < cpet> Really doubt you will notice 
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18:32 < sibiria> depends on how grindy it is
18:32  * oldlaptop looked through https://man.openbsd.org/swapctl.2 first, which seems to sort of suggest it's supposed to be a "device"
18:32 < oldlaptop> but there's also just "a file to enable swapping to"
18:33 < sibiria> i never used swapctl/swapon on openbsd for this. only fstab entry
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18:34  * oldlaptop would assume rc *calls* swapon -A or so
18:34 < cpet> Installer does all that behind the scenes 
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18:38 < metavoid> anyone managed to run openbsd 7.3 installer to in esxi 7 and uefi? Seems only the installer73.img has uefi, but I'm failing trying to get anykind of vmdk working from that .img file
18:39 < cpet> Think there's an option to run a vm in a vm ?
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18:52 < riceandbeans> interestingly, chromium on speed test does 92.3
18:52 < riceandbeans> almost 2x firefox
18:53 < riceandbeans> I only keep it there for when a page just flat out doesn't work with ff
18:53 < thrig> chrome is a funny way to spell MSIE
18:54 < holsta> riceandbeans: What hardware is that on?
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18:54 < avemestr> p4x639: There's pros and cons to every OS. Your best path ahead is to install OpenBSD and see if it fits your needs and if you can live with the cons. Nobody can tell you that in advance.
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18:58 < brocashelm> how often does one run sysupgrade on -current? i've had to do that every now and then to get the pkg_add updates to work correctly (some packages wouldn't exist until i ran sysupgrade)
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18:58 < holsta> brocashelm: As often as you have time to handle any fallout with packages and such. 
18:59 < holsta> Some of my systems run it nightly. My laptop about once per week.
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18:59 < brocashelm> holsta: ah, i see. i try not to do it all the time as i like to leave it running throughout days/weeks (programs should be accessed faster once loaded into memory)
19:00 < brocashelm> i switched to 7.3-current by mistake, but at least october isn't that far from now
19:00 < brocashelm> and i've noticed some performance improvements compared to 7.1 and 7.2
19:00 < brocashelm> so i like it better now, despite some inconsistencies with locating packages
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19:16 < riceandbeans> thrig: MSIE is a funny way to spell Chrome
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21:48 < GnarledHorn> swapping out some network gear wasn't as transparent as I had hoped 
21:48 < GnarledHorn> best not to do that at the last minute before you have to run out the door! haha
21:49 < thrig> dunno, someone once upgraded the mail servers to slackware and then went on a big ski trip
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21:51 < GnarledHorn> brave!
21:52 < thrig> everything broke, so this is why it's a story
21:54 < GnarledHorn> Interestingly, I had to restart relayd after the network was broken for ~1.5 hours. I accidentally severed the relay between the nearest switch and the internet. I am trying to find where relayd logs to. Nothing looks related in /var/log and the man page and conf file don't offer any clues
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--- Log closed Thu Jun 29 00:00:40 2023