--- Log opened Fri Jul 07 00:00:51 2023
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00:27 < ssm_> think my mail server is being blocked by openbsd.org, getting no response for majordomo commands (maybe it's my .work tld)
00:31 < ssm_> did a mail test, spamassassin hates my tld :(
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00:37 < Bradipo> I wonder why.  Seems like a perfectly legitimate domain to me.
00:37 < Bradipo> Does openbsd.org use spamassassing?
00:39 < ssm_> Bradipo: "The OpenBSD lists use spamd(8) and SpamAssassin to keep down the spam volume" https://www.openbsd.org/mail.html
00:39 < Bradipo> Interesting, seems like a waste of resources to use SpamAssassin.
00:40 < ssm_> maybe the waste of resources dealing with spam is greater
00:40 < Bradipo> spamd(8) sure, makes a lot of bang for little buck.
00:41 < ssm_> I *guess* I can buy a new domain, would have to nag my vps provider to change my rdns
00:42 < Bradipo> I wonder why it is that I don't get any spam...
00:42 < Bradipo> I've been hosting my own email since 2000.
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00:42 < Bradipo> I don't even use spamd(8), but I do rely on RBL.
00:43 < Bradipo> Don't use SpamAssassing either.
00:43 < Bradipo> What proof do you have that your emails are being blocked?
00:44 < Bradipo> Maybe you're being caught, subject to "the list server also has regex-based rules to reject emails", but in this case, I would expect for you to have evidence that it was rejected.
00:45 < Bradipo> And in which case, I think it would be arguable that you should be able to have said rules adjusted.
00:45 < ssm_> tried mailing majordomo@openbsd.org 3 times with body `lists` and `subscribe misc` with no response
00:45 < Bradipo> No response isn't proof that you're being blocked.
00:45 < Bradipo> What does your mail server say happened with the emails?
00:45 < ssm_> unsubscribed from ports@ on a webmail (protonmail) and it worked fine
00:46 < Bradipo> If your mail server is being blocked, there should be some evidence, not "no response".
00:46 < Bradipo> Do your mail server logs show anything?
00:46 < ssm_> stat="451 Temporary failure, please try again later."
00:46 < Bradipo> Ok, that's spamd(8).
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00:46 < Bradipo> But that's not evidence of being blocked, just that you have to pass the spamd(8) test.
00:47 < ssm_> oh, I don't think I'm blocked, I think it's just my tld
00:47 < Bradipo> Does the 451 temporary failure ever go away?
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00:49 < ssm_> oh, it worked this time
00:49 < ssm_> wee
00:51 < ssm_> subbed
00:54 < mmoreno80> hey! having a question; I am trying to autoinstall in orden to run current; pxe boot is running, but the install script cannot find the install.conf file. problem is, dhcpd.conf returns filename "pxeboot" but seems to be that the installer needs "install.conf", but I don't see a way to specify something like this: "when booting, use pxeboot; when installing, use http://myserver/install.conf". is it 
00:54 < mmoreno80> possible to configure the system like that?  
00:57 < mmoreno80> or the only solution is to build a custom bsd.rd?
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01:07 < oldlaptop> mmoreno80: https://man.openbsd.org/autoinstall explains the recommended solution
01:10 < mmoreno80> oldlaptop: read the man page for it.
01:10 < mmoreno80> oldlaptop: I don't see how to do it. 
01:11 < oldlaptop> I assume you missed the paragraph starting "On architectures where the <b>filename</b> statement is used to provide the name of the file to netboot..."?
01:12 < mmoreno80> oldlaptop: did that too. that is working. 
01:12 < oldlaptop> (and the immediately preceding material, which notes that the DHCP "filename" is not expected to be the literal name of the response file)
01:13 < oldlaptop> But you said you *didn't* do that: you said 'dhcpd.conf returns filename "pxeboot"'
01:14 < oldlaptop> it should *not* do that (following the suggestion in the manual page)
01:14 < mmoreno80> oldlaptop: got it.
01:14 < mmoreno80> thanks, oldlaptop 
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01:14 < mmoreno80> I missed the recommended solution 
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01:17 < jordanreger> is there a way to set custom email headers with mail(x)? the man page shows an option to *see* headers when reading but not *set* headers when sending.
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01:19 < oldlaptop> A tricky thing (although I don't think tricky is *quite* the right word) is that openbsd manual pages aren't necessarily shy about... well, not exactly *hiding* important stuff like that, but the key piece to the puzzle might really be one sentence in one paragraph like that, such that it's easy to miss when skimming
01:20 < jordanreger> yeah i've gotten better at finding exactly what i need in the man pages/mailing lists but every once in a while there's little things like this that i just can't find
01:21 < oldlaptop> jordanreger: (sorry, that's *not* meant for you - previous conversation)
01:21  * oldlaptop does not use mail(1) nearly enough to comment on that
01:21 < jordanreger> ah well it does apply still haha; sorry about that
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01:22 < mmoreno80> lol
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01:27 < thrig> https://thrig.me/tmp/custom-email-headers
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02:09 < Bradipo> In the mail(1) man page, under Tilde/escapes, I see:      ~h      Edit the message header fields by typing each one in turn and
02:09 < Bradipo> allowing the user to append text to the end or modify the field by using the current terminal erase and kill characters.
02:09 < Bradipo> So does ~h allow you to edit message headers?
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06:10 < AlaskanEmily> Are there packages for debug symbols?
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06:10 < AlaskanEmily> Like for a shared library provided by a package.
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06:21 < lts> AlaskanEmily: for some packages, https://www.openbsd.org/faq/ports/ports.html#Backtrace
06:24 < AlaskanEmily> lts: Ah, there actually is one for this!
06:24 < AlaskanEmily> The package is XZ/liblzma.
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07:01 < divansantana> I lander up on 7.3 current but upgrading early.  How to I switch from 7.3 current to -stable?
07:01 < divansantana> *landed
07:03 < kn> divansantana: reinstall, downgrade is not supported
07:03 < kn> .3
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07:16 < divansantana> technically I think 7.3 is a little ahead of my 7.3-current, because this was before 7.3 was just before released.  Not another way?
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07:18 < finkfox> looking for a graphical www browser on i368. firefox-esr is not available, any alternatives you can recommend?
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07:27 < finkfox> maybe dooble?
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08:09 < mischief> might be time for a new computer.
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08:49 < taleon> ficonni: Otter Browser, qutebrowser, epiphany, luakit, etc.
08:50 < taleon> ficonni: Sorry, I meant finkfox. He seems to be offline.
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13:59 < oatmeal> just noticed that clbin.com ssl certifcate expired
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14:46 < ssm_> when I su to root, how does mail(1) still know to access the mail of my unprivileged user?
14:47 < ssm_> if I do a simulated login (-l) it reads root mail
14:47 < thrig> real user id, effective user id
14:47 < Bradipo> The DESCRIPTION in su(1) may be of service.
14:51 < sibiria> additionally there's also saved uid (history) that can be accessed to see who you really are - though i don't think much software ever made use of this
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14:54 < ssm_> Bradipo: "All of the real, effective, and saved user and group IDs as well as all supplementary group IDs are always set according to the target user." That reads to me as the opposite of what thrig is saying
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14:59 < Bradipo> ssm_: The key part of DESCRIPTION for this discussion is: "The rest of the environment remains unmodified by default."
15:01 < ssm_> yeah, env(1) output has what I was looking for
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15:02 < Bradipo> What was it?
15:02 < ssm_> MAIL=/var/mail/ssm
15:02 < Bradipo> Bingo. :-)
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15:07 < quinq> How do I list remotely mounted nfs on my nfs server? :D
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15:08 < quinq> Will showmount do that?
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15:09 < Bradipo> Are you asking how to see which mount clients are using your NFS server?
15:10 < quinq> yes
15:11 < Bradipo> The DESCRIPTION of showmount(8) does say: "showmount shows status information about the NFS server on host.  By default it prints the names of all hosts that have NFS file systems mounted on the host."
15:11 < Bradipo> Sounds like it should do it...
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15:30 < quinq> actually it seems that my client is not able to mount it
15:30 < quinq> It's a linux that tells me: mount.nfs: portmap query failed: RPC: Program not registered
15:30 < quinq> Although on the OpenBSD server, portmap is running, and has been started before nfsd (that is also running)
15:33 < sibiria> serving nfs on openbsd to linux/android was always problematic in my experience. in fact, i never got it to work. macOS client manages fine, though
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15:34 < quinq> Erf ok :/
15:34 < quinq> Though I think I did mount it a few weeks ago, while testing, but maybe not…
15:34 < Bradipo> pf?
15:35 < quinq> It's on LAN, everything should pass, but let-me have a look at the pflog
15:35 < ssm_> sibiria: could it be because openbsd uses nfs 3, and linux (and basically everything else I know of) uses nfs 4?
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15:36 < quinq> Bradipo, nope
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15:36 < sibiria> ssm_: i might be wrong but i'm sure linux still supports nfs3. if android only does nfs4 that's no surprise to me
15:36 < quinq> ssm_, it fallbacks
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15:37 < sibiria> that said, both old and modern macOS interfaces just fine with it
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15:40 < eea> when talking to a new NFS host, i always do showmount -e, first
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15:41 < eea> tells me it is alive and offering up shares and that my client can talk to it
15:43 < sibiria> on the openbsd side i could never get any useful debug information out of nfsd/portmap/etc. about why android and linux clients didn't want to play ball
15:43 -!- LaoGrue is now known as ElderMalaclypse
15:44 < sibiria> somewhat ironically it was the same on the client side... they just rapidly connected and disconnected while keeping mum about why
15:44 < sibiria> computers are stupid!!!
15:44 < thrig> I don't think I've ever gotten useful debug info out of NFS
15:46 < eea> NFS has 0 notion of this debugging character
15:46 < oldlaptop> part of the problem presumably being that "nfs" and "connected" are not necessarily compatible concepts
15:47 < sibiria> i had to resort to using httpd with auto-generated directory listings to serve content to the client applications
15:47 < Bradipo> Doesn't NFS have TCP support?
15:47 < sibiria> it does
15:48 < Bradipo> I suppose if UDP is in use there's no "connected" per se.
15:48 < sibiria> oldlaptop: that udp is stateless is sort of besides the point
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15:48 < sibiria> the clients still initiate a connection and then (if all goes well) requests content
15:49 < oldlaptop> Well, sure - the point is that nfs itself is also stateless
15:49 < oldlaptop> (or can be? nfs is weird)
15:49 < sibiria> black magic
15:50 < eea> and voodoo
15:50 < eea> forcing linux clients to tcp helps
15:50 < thrig> worse is when a sysadmin goes on vacation and you support their systems and then you discover they have cross NFS mounts everywhere
15:50 < eea> at least, the linux clients i connect to my openbsd nfs host
15:51 < Bradipo> Haha, cross NFS mounts, fun.
15:51 < eea> thrig: my devs still have full sudo and a taste for nested mounts
15:52 < thrig> brrrr
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16:00 < mavavilj> any Finnish users?
16:00 < mavavilj> I was reading the list on user groups and I think I wanted some local contacts, but not sure if any exist
16:00 < sibiria> AFP (apple filing protocol, previously known as appletalk) always worked great for me, never any hassle for my use cases. though no readily available android support for that afaik
16:00 < Bradipo> Sadly, it seems that network filesystems have gotten much less attention these days.
16:01 -!- ukemi [~ukemi@2a01:e0a:6d:7db0:feaa:14ff:fea7:f2dc] has joined #openbsd
16:01 < Bradipo> I don't even run NFS in my own home network where I control everything...
16:02 < mavavilj> nevertheless seriously considering minimizing all Linux use for OpenBSD
16:03 < Bradipo> mavavilj: It can be done if you're determined. :-)
16:06 < ssm_> mavavilj: you won't regret it, though sometimes I have to use linux to remind myself why I enjoy openbsd so much
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16:06 < mavavilj> but I also thought whether it's better to approach is as a virtual box under a Linux
16:06 < mavavilj> or as an independent install
16:06 < mavavilj> I mean because for Windows they recommend WSL as a "no fuss" Linux
16:06 < mavavilj> where you get most the benefits, but don't have to deal with configuration
16:07 < sibiria> i like WSL. very convenient and useful when on Windows
16:07 < sibiria> i think it's a great solution
16:07 < mavavilj> but it's not very pure
16:07 < thrig> WSL means you have to deal with Windows (the worst OS I've ever used) and Linux (not a fan)
16:07 < mavavilj> I think the hard-core open source people would say that it's not authentic
16:07 < Bradipo> Sometimes it's not all rosy though.  I've been using qcad for years, but lately it is broken.  It segfaults on later versions.
16:08 < mavavilj> it's possibly more "real world" though
16:08 < mavavilj> because of application support
16:08 < Bradipo> I've tried using LibreCAD but it's not quite the same as qcad.
16:08 < sibiria> it's not really authentic, no, but when you're on windows and need that one linux thing it hits the spot with minimal effort
16:08 < oldlaptop> mavavilj: Running OpenBSD under Linux (or Linux under OpenBSD for that matter) means you have to deal with "configuration" for both OSes.
16:08 < mavavilj> like when I put just OpenBSD, then the availability of applications drops dramatically
16:09 < Bradipo> Depends on the application.  I haven't found anything that I wanted so badly that I pined for Linux.
16:09 < mavavilj> yes and my main concern was that a Virtual Box OpenBSD will not give a proper view on the OS, because the hardware is virtualized
16:09 < mavavilj> and my interest was to develop OpenBSD
16:09 < Bradipo> I run OpenBSD 100% at home and have never felt that I was missing out on "applications".
16:09 < oldlaptop> You might want to do that anyway (I use both of those arrangements on different machines), but you don't get out of having to "deal with configuration" or whatever, you *add* much more complexity to the whole system.
16:09 < Bradipo> Though, as I pointed out above, sometimes they do break and it can be a while before things get fixed.
16:10 < mavavilj> yes that's true that one might do both of them
16:10 < mavavilj> because it's possible that Virtual Boxed OpenBSD is an important use case
16:10 < oldlaptop> I wouldn't say the "availability of [open-source] applications" is at all "dramatically" different between Linux and OpenBSD.
16:10 < mavavilj> for cross-OS use
16:10 < mavavilj> someone could even develop some interesting interface layers to it
16:10 < mavavilj> to leverage binaries on both
16:11 < oldlaptop> It *is* true that there are basically no proprietary binary-only things from ISVs for OpenBSD - the platform is hostile to that in various ways, even if it was large enough to be a lucrative market
16:11 < mavavilj> just like it works for WSL
16:12 < oldlaptop> OpenBSD/i386 once had a Linux syscall personality. It got removed years ago for being more or less useless.
16:13 < mavavilj> but it goes a bit oddly
16:13 < mavavilj> because no BSD has the Linuxulator
16:13 < mavavilj> but the Linux ecosystem should be larger
16:13 < mavavilj> so it makes no sense that the ordering is this way
16:13 < mavavilj> when it'd make more sense if there was a BSDulator for Linux
16:13 < oldlaptop> ISTR the FreeBSD people are still trying to maintain a Linux syscall personality.
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16:15 < mavavilj> so OpenBSD is different?
16:15 < mavavilj> I don't understand why it's pointless
16:15 < mavavilj> because such layer could be useful due to separation of philosophies
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16:16 < oldlaptop> The COMPAT_LINUX feature was rather clunky to use in practice, and wasn't really maintained by the end. Part of the reason there wasn't much interest in maintaining it was that it wasn't very helpful by that time to run Linux binaries on OpenBSD/i386 - everyone was running amd64.
16:16 < oldlaptop> (OpenBSD/amd64 is completely binary-incompatible with OpenBSD/i386.)
16:16 < Bradipo> mavavilj: Then there's: https://justine.lol/ape.html
16:17 < oldlaptop> It would have been a whole lot of work for somebody to make it useful, and that wasn't work anyone was interested in doing.
16:18 < sibiria> i used it a lot in the early 2000s, to play NES games on a linux-only emulator and to host a Counter-Strike server
16:18 < mavavilj> yes but that means that software must be rewritten for OpenBSD, right?
16:18 < sibiria> oh and also for a few years to run "folding@home"
16:18 < sibiria> i found it to be hassle-free, really
16:19 < sibiria> add compat layer package -> start linux executables
16:19 < oldlaptop> No, the vast majority of software that builds for Linux (or any unixoid in general) will build for OpenBSD (or any other unixoid in general)
16:19 < Bradipo> mavavilj: "rewritten" is a bit strong.
16:19 < mavavilj> but that I don't understand how it will work
16:19 < oldlaptop> Linux compatibility was useful for software for which the source code was not available.
16:19 < mavavilj> unless the OS "API" is the same
16:19 < oldlaptop> It largely is.
16:19 < mavavilj> okay
16:19 < Bradipo> There are "standards" in the *nix world.
16:20 < oldlaptop> (Of course Linux has nonstandard system calls that OpenBSD doesn't, and OpenBSD has nonstandard system calls that Linux doesn't. In principle a Linux compatiblity mode could run software that uses Linux-specific features, but in practice the ones that would be really *interesting* are going to be the ones that aren't all that practical to support.)
16:21 < oldlaptop> The use-cases that Linux compatibility once could fill are mostly addressed by running Linux in a VM nowadays.
16:21 < mavavilj> any ideas where I can understand these standards?
16:21 < mavavilj> I did study the kernel on Linux
16:21 < oldlaptop> You can read the POSIX specification at https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/
16:21 < mavavilj> but now with BSDs I am not sure where to start with
16:21 < Bradipo> Well, first question is, what are you trying to accomplish?
16:22 < oldlaptop> OpenBSD manual pages (and the ones in linux-man-pages) generally cite POSIX where it's relevant, and flag OpenBSD-specific (or not-very-OpenBSD-specific-but-still-nonstandard) extensions to the specification.
16:22 < Bradipo> If you're trying to write software that is portable, look at software that runs on many *nix OSes.
16:22 < mavavilj> so OpenBSD uses only standard POSIX?
16:22 < mavavilj> or something more
16:23 < mavavilj> I just want to understand what the kernel is
16:23 < oldlaptop> No, functionally all unix-like OSes (such as OpenBSD, or most "Linux distributions) implement "something more" than "standard POSIX".
16:23 < mavavilj> and what the OS is
16:23 < thrig> http://man.openbsd.org/man3/rand.3
16:23 < oldlaptop> ...And in a few mostly-not-very-important cases, like rand(3), OpenBSD is deliberately non-conformant.
16:24 < oldlaptop> The "kernel" is a specific component of "the OS" that does things like process management.
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16:24 < oldlaptop> (Exactly what it does varies from kernel to kernel. Linux and OpenBSD's kernel both do a lot more than the bare minimum a kernel would need to do.)
16:25 < oldlaptop> "The OS" is a bit fuzzier as a concept. OpenBSD would still be "an OS" if you removed a lot of its components. (Debian would still be "an OS" if you removed almost all of its packages.)
16:25 < mavavilj> yes but where is the full doc for it
16:25 < oldlaptop> What "full doc" for what?
16:25 < thrig> OpenBSD lacks the Frankenstein aspect of linux (userland? oh sow these random parts together...)
16:25 < mavavilj> ^ the reason I wanted to leave Linux
16:26 < mavavilj> it's design by chaos and not reason
16:27 < oldlaptop> POSIX specifies a lot of things that an operating system could do, and most unixoids (like OpenBSD, or a "Linux distribution") do most of what POSIX specifies.
16:27 < mavavilj> full doc for the kernel and OS
16:27 < oldlaptop> OpenBSD is documented in its manual pages and FAQ.
16:28 < mavavilj> like e.g. https://makelinux.github.io/kernel/map/
16:29 < thrig> linux break posix a lot by not installing ed, or symlink vi to something horrid
16:29 < oldlaptop> Documentation on the internals of OpenBSD's kernel is mostly in section 9 of the manual. https://man.openbsd.org/intro.9
16:31 < oldlaptop> Perhaps see also https://www.openbsd.org/books.html, though "the information in some older books may no longer be accurate or relevant to modern OpenBSD."
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16:32 < oldlaptop> for example: "This book covers all aspects of OpenBSD, including systrace, Kerberos V, IPv6 and IPsec" - hey, two out of those four still exist!
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16:32 < Bradipo> Really, only 2.  I thought maybe of the 4 only IPsec still exists. :-)
16:32 < ElderMalaclypse> 16:29 < thrig> linux break posix a lot by not installing ed, or symlink vi to something horrid
16:32 < eea> i still use 2 of those
16:32 < ElderMalaclypse> horrible people
16:34 < ElderMalaclypse> Which two do you use?
16:34 < eea> krb5 and ipv6
16:34 < oldlaptop> Most people who use smartphones *actually use IPv6* nowadays, which is something at least
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16:35 < Bradipo> ElderMalaclypse: I still use ed(1) and vi(1)
16:35 < eea> still lots of IT afeered of ipv6
16:36 < mavavilj> I'm trying to get a trible boot of Win/Linux/OpenBSD
16:36 < ssm_> ElderMalaclypse: Or complete non-compliance to FHS even though it's a linux standard
16:37 < oldlaptop> mavavilj: That's really not a headache you're going to want until after you're reasonably familiar with OpenBSD (if you ever want it at all)
16:37 < oldlaptop> maaaaaybe reasonably tolerable nowadays with refind
16:37 < mavavilj> what do you mean?
16:37 < mavavilj> yes I thought it's a mess
16:37 < mavavilj> and I was going to use Refind
16:37 < mavavilj> but I really need all OSes
16:37 < mavavilj> but I thought of also perhaps installing OpenBSD on a separate drive
16:37 < mavavilj> because Win/Linux dual-boot is easy
16:39 < mavavilj> but I also thought whether OpenBSD on a desktop is easier than on laptops
16:40 < mavavilj> because this was the case with FreeBSD
16:40 < Bradipo> mavavilj: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting
16:40 < mavavilj> laptops with FreeBSD have chance that you won't have even graphics
16:40 < Bradipo> Really not too tricky if you follow the FAQ.
16:40 < ElderMalaclypse> Bradipo: I use vi(1) at times, too.
16:40 < mavavilj> but with desktop it works more robustly
16:40 < ElderMalaclypse> I . . . maybe use ed(1) a few times, once every few years.
16:40 < Bradipo> mavavilj: If OpenBSD works on a laptop it works as easily as it does on a workstation. :-)
16:41 < mavavilj> no but laptops have less generic hardware
16:41 < mavavilj> so getting e.g. a VGA output is riskier on them
16:41 < Bradipo> Right, hence the "if it works". :-)
16:41 < ElderMalaclypse> ssm_: It's a pretty pathological standard.
16:41 < mavavilj> it's quite common that you will get a black display
16:41 < mavavilj> but the output is in a VGA
16:41 < mavavilj> when connected to an external monitor
16:41 < ElderMalaclypse> I seem to recall FHS became the snarl it is in large part thanks to infighting between Debian and Red Hat.
16:42 < mavavilj> on laptops they can also break the power management
16:42 < mavavilj> so one might get very poor battery life
16:43 < Bradipo> Could be.  Only way to find out is to do it.
16:43 < Bradipo> In the amount of time we've spent talking about OpenBSD, you could have installed it 4 times. :-)
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16:45 < mavavilj> well putting it on a laptop sounds a bit risky
16:45 < mavavilj> because the triple boot might break all of the OSes
16:45 < mavavilj> from booting
16:46 < Bradipo> So just put OpenBSD on it.
16:46 < mavavilj> and most laptops don't have a second hard drive
16:46 < mavavilj> well for that one needs a robust backup anyways
16:46 < eea> if only there was some way to "virtualize"
16:46 < Bradipo> I haven't ever triple boot, only dual boot.
16:47 < Bradipo> FAQ covers dual boot with Windows.
16:47 < mavavilj> so is their idea that Linux users will just build for BSD
16:47 < mavavilj> so that installing Linux is pointless
16:47 < Bradipo> No.
16:48 < mavavilj> then it would make sense to reference a well-tested triple boot
16:48 < mavavilj> such as Win10/Ubuntu/OpenBSD
16:48 < mavavilj> I wonder if this will work https://riedstra.dev/2018/12/triple-boot
16:49 < Bradipo> In general dual boot is mostly useless because one will invariably spend most of the time in one or the other of the OSes.
16:49 < Bradipo> Because they cannot both be used concurrently.
16:49 < mavavilj> no but they're for different uses
16:49 < Bradipo> Right.
16:49 < mavavilj> for example, because Power BI only works on Windows
16:50 < Bradipo> Or for example, because "gaming" on Windows is a thing. :-)
16:50 < eea> i use powerBI on linux... just not that desktop app
16:51 < Bradipo> Interesting, thanks for sharing that URL.  If nothing else, I learned about a nifty registry key for dual booting.
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16:51 < Bradipo> RealTimeIsUniversal
16:52 < Bradipo> Previously, I just set the TZ to UTC, but that means my local clock is off.
16:52 < Bradipo> With this registry setting, at least in theory, it seems that I should be able to set the TZ to local TZ while Windows groks the clock as UTC.
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16:54 < mavavilj> but I wonder if that guide will work for OpenBSD
16:54 < mavavilj> the order is also a bit different than for dual-boot
16:54 < mavavilj> where it's Win before Linux
16:54 -!- housemate [~housemate@61-68-32-90.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openbsd
16:54 < mavavilj> there it's Win, FreeBSD then Linux
16:55 < Bradipo> I think the point is that install Windows first because it's the most difficult and the most likely to do the "wrong thing".
16:55 < Bradipo> Once Windows is correct, then you proceed to get the others on there.
16:55 < mavavilj> I could also do just a Linux/BSD disk
16:55 < mavavilj> if that's easier
16:55 < Bradipo> Well, dual boot with Windows isn't difficult.
16:55 < Bradipo> It's just a matter of following the FAQ.
16:56 < mavavilj> no I mean Linux and BSD
16:56 < Bradipo> Basically, the goal is to have Windows be your "boot manager".
16:57 < mavavilj> yes I now because GRUB will break the Windows boot manager
16:57 < mavavilj> when it install
16:57 < mavavilj> installs*
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16:58 < mavavilj> this suggests OpenBSD before Linux
16:58 < mavavilj> so maybe the order is Win10, OpenBSD, Linux
16:58 < mavavilj> http://www.geodsoft.com/howto/dualboot/manyboot.htm
17:00 < mavavilj> one guide here: https://www.bsdforen.de/threads/uefi-openbsd-6-9-ubuntu-21-04-windows-10-triple-boot-on-2-hard-drives.36218/
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17:33 < Bradipo> mavavilj: Whatever the case may be, be prepared to have bootable "rescue" media for them all. :-)
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17:44 < avemestr> mavavilj: Local LUGs (Linux User Groups) are often open for *BSD people as well in my experience.
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17:48 < ssm_> may be the wrong place to ask, but where can I find a list of "trustworthy" TLDs that won't get blocked by common mail filters
17:48 < sibiria> it's practically never about the TLD. always about your setup, and to some degree where you're hosting
17:48 < Bradipo> If mail administrators are in the habit of blocking email based on TLD they are most certainly doing it wrong.
17:49 < Erhard> Many do, though.
17:49 < ssm_> sibiria: my issue is definitely my TLD, unfortunately (.work)
17:49 < Bradipo> Can you name one?
17:49 < Erhard> I have had issues with a .tv domain for years due to BOFH
17:49 < sibiria> ssm_: who's blocking it?
17:49 < Bradipo> I've never once run into SMTP servers that block email based on TLD.
17:49 < ssm_> spamassassin, major mail providers spam my mails
17:49 < Erhard> Corporate mail filters weight them donwards
17:49 < Erhard> downwards even
17:50 < Erhard> Ignorant sysadmins? Absolutely, but it totally happens.
17:50 < Bradipo> The only place I really have sending email to is @gmail.com.  Now they block me, so those who want me to respond will have to find an alternative. :-)
17:50 < Bradipo> Yes, I suppose it could happen.
17:50 < Erhard> You have spf and dkim setup?
17:51 < ssm_> Erhard: yes
17:51 < Erhard> That will help a ton with google
17:51 < Erhard> Weird.
17:51 < Bradipo> In this case, ask the people with whom you commincate to talk to their mail administrator to solve the problem.
17:51 < Bradipo> It's their problem, after all.
17:51 < ssm_> I pass all mail tests with flying colors, except for "untrusted TLD/NTLD"
17:51 < Erhard> Been using my own servers for email since 1995, and have no real problems other than the ocassional overzealous filter with the .tv domains.
17:51 < Erhard> What is the tld?
17:51 < ssm_> .work
17:52 < Bradipo> I've been using my own as well, never needed SPF or DKIM.  They won't help me.  They won't help Gmail, they are just a tool for cartelism.
17:52 < Erhard> Ah.. Likley too new
17:52 < Erhard> Nah, they help a ton.
17:52 < ssm_> so... if I wait long enough it may go away? :)
17:52 < Bradipo> They don't solve any problem.
17:52 < Erhard> Gmail recently started blocking some mail for one domain (.com even) the reply in the block message was enable spf or DKIM
17:52 < Bradipo> Yep.
17:53 < Erhard> I enable spf on that domain and it works fine.
17:53 < Bradipo> Gmail is taking a hard line.
17:53 < Erhard> They kind of have to though.
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17:53 < Bradipo> Why?
17:53 < Erhard> SPF and DKIM are good things.
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17:53 < Erhard> Why would you NOT want to use them?
17:53 < Bradipo> We can agree to disagree on this point. :-)
17:53 < Bradipo> Because they aren't useful for anything.
17:53 < Erhard> Except aiding in identifying legit mail.
17:54 < Bradipo> Until all spammers are using it.
17:54 < Bradipo> Guess what they do?
17:54 < Bradipo> They use it.
17:54 < Erhard> Right, but for now they weight in favor of non-spam
17:54 < Bradipo> Not really.
17:54 < ssm_> rdns is the most annoying requirement of email, because unless you have a vps, it's not exactly easy to set your rdns
17:54 < ssm_> if it weren't for rdns I'd be selfhosting email at home
17:54 < Bradipo> There is no standard that says RDNS is a requirement, and in fact, I agree that it's mostly not helpful.
17:55 < Bradipo> However, it can be a metric.
17:56 < Erhard> That one will pretty much guarantee your mail will be blocked.
17:56 < Erhard> It is weighted very high everywhere.
17:56 < Erhard> (bad rdns)
17:56 < ssm_> yeah, I tried without rdns and it wasn't good
17:59 < mavavilj> how central is libbsd with OpenBSD and Linux interop?
17:59 < Bradipo> I wouldn't have a problem with Gmail's policy if they were actually intelligent about it (e.g. require SPF or only accept email relay from named MX hosts).
18:00 < Erhard> spf and dkim are also good at blocking mail sent by spammers using your from domains, and would make it less likely for your domain to be bloced in such cases.
18:00 < Bradipo> The fact that they don't, suggests to me that they don't care about their "customers".
18:00 < Bradipo> Erhard: How often does that actually happen?
18:00 < Erhard> It has been a decade or two, but for a while BOFH admins were blocking my domain when some spammer started sending spam with my domain as a from addr.
18:02 < Erhard> But how often does my domain get used as a from by spammers? A lot. You can see this in the reports for DMARC
18:02 < Bradipo> Attempting to control this via DNS and domains is backwards.
18:02 < Bradipo> It doesn't stop the source of the problem.
18:02 < Erhard> Greed?
18:02 < Bradipo> Haha, well, not exactly.
18:03 < Erhard> They do help a lot with the issue of others using your domain.
18:03 < Bradipo> Only if all domains bother to check SPF.
18:03 < dayid> backscatter :(
18:03 < Erhard> Most do
18:03 < Bradipo> Most do not.
18:03 < Erhard> Yeah, and they should not backscatter
18:03 < Erhard> Citation needed either way
18:04 < Erhard> I would bet most delivered mail does.
18:04 < Erhard> since most people are drones that use spy services like gmail
18:05 < Bradipo> Yep, hence my claim that email is a quagmire, and privacy and email are almost never going to intersect. :-)
18:05 < Bradipo> If I'm unable to email Gmail, that's better for me, and others, because less spying is happening.
18:05 < Erhard> Well, it is insecure. We have known that formt he start. But there is a difference between could read, and always do read.
18:05 < Erhard> Granted I assume the nsa always does store everything.
18:06 < Erhard> But there is not much I can do about that except make it harder by encrypting as much as possible.
18:06 < Bradipo> Yep.
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18:06 < Erhard> But I sure as hell won't willying give stuff to the devil google
18:07 < ssm_> like your default ntpd queries on openbsd?
18:07 < Bradipo> Excpet you use SPF so your emails get to Gmail? :-)
18:08 < Erhard> That is not willying giving them anything.
18:08 < Erhard> The email recipients are, and I can't prevent that
18:08 < Bradipo> ssm_: I always disable the Google entries in ntpd.conf
18:08 < ssm_> same
18:08 < Erhard> And yeah, my ntpd uses nist
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18:25 < lts> I have a GPS antenna on the roof so I don't have to use any external ntp servers
18:26 < thrig> GPS is also prone to jamming and forging
18:27 < lts> Would be rather cool to see that in the graphs for once
18:27 < thrig> probably there would be a war on if that was happening
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18:32 < Bradipo> One of my OpenBSD firewalls runs clockspeed: http://cr.yp.to/clockspeed.html
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18:32 < Erhard> The military jams gps in the US all the time. As a pilot I get NOTAMs telling me where.
18:33 < Bradipo> It does fairly well, though it does drift slightly over time, mostly when the temperature changes (e.g. due to seasons).
18:33 < Erhard> It is limited well, defined areas of course.
18:34 < Erhard> Until it's not.
18:34 < phy1729> Please keep to more OpenBSD related chatter
18:34 < Erhard> Read up. it is
18:35 < Bradipo> Well, to be fair, there was a lot of banter that wasn't necessarily OpenBSD specific a while back.
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18:35 < Erhard> I uess we could discuss anything SMTP related in another chan, and spf in another, etc. But since those all apply to OpenBSD users, and a specific user's question that seems silly
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18:36 < phy1729> Yes SMTP chatter is ok. NOTAMs and GPS jamming not so much.
18:36 < Erhard> That was is reply to using a GPS clock source for OpenBSD.
18:36  * Erhard sighs
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18:51 < steerpike> does resflash support validating signed images?
18:55 < Erhard> Doesn't look like it. Looks like checksums only
18:56 < Erhard> Just based on their website
18:56 < Erhard> But this is the first I've heard of it.
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19:13 < solene> I'm looking for a way to limit my OpenBSD system to 512MB of memory, any idea?
19:13 < ssm_> login.conf?
19:13 < ssm_> that's only for processes though
19:13 < solene> I tried to allocate memory using malloc, but it doesn't support 1024*1024*7500 to allocate 7500 MB of memory out of the 8000 MB in my laptop...
19:14 < ssm_> s/processes/single &
19:14 < solene> ssm_: yes, doesn't work the way I want
19:14 < thrig> the kernel also takes a bit
19:14 < solene> I made a loop creating mfs mountpoint and filling them with garbage, up to total-500 MB but that doesn't seem to be precise
19:15 < solene> allocating 7500 MB using mfs made syslogd and a few programs to be killed because the system was OOM o_O
19:15 < solene> then I remembered I have 256 MB of shared memory with the GPU
19:15 < lts> Fire up vmd(8) and perform your tests in a VM which has 512M memory
19:15 < solene> no idea where this shows
19:15 < Erhard> I was going to suggest the vm route too
19:15 < solene> lts: actually, starting a VM with 7500 MB could work :D
19:16 < sibiria> solene: why not just run N number of processes that allocate e.g. 100mb each, until you're down to ~500mb free?
19:17 < solene> sibiria: this seems rather complicated :(
19:17 < Erhard> What is the actual goal of limiting the memory?
19:17 < oldlaptop> could something like viomb(4) work (in a kernel-hacking direction)? i.e. a kernel driver that just sucks up some memory
19:17 < oldlaptop> wasteram(4)
19:17 < sibiria> solene: hm you could do it simply with perl, to fork+alloc exactly what you need to occupy
19:18 < solene> the 3rd edition of the "old computer challenge" where you are limited to a system with 1 CPU at lowest frequency and 512 MB of memory https://dataswamp.org/~solene/2023-06-04-old-computer-challenge-v3.html
19:18 < solene> linux has boot flags to limit memory
19:18 < Erhard> Or just run a python interpretter. That would use up all the memory for you
19:18 < ssm_> malloc(100M); while(true) { sleep(69); }
19:18 < sibiria> but virtual machine is probably a simpler and more accurate product
19:19 < solene> sibiria: it turns out the VM doesn't use the ram assigned, it's doing some balooning! :O
19:19 < Erhard> For that challenege a vm is the way to go.
19:19  * oldlaptop would just go fire up the computer with 512MB RAM and one CPU
19:19 < Erhard> Exactly
19:19 < oldlaptop> or does the old PIII box only have 256? hm
19:19 < ssm_> make a 500M file and open it in a text editor that stores the entire file in memory
19:19 < solene> Erhard: vmd doesn't support display
19:20 < Erhard> I see.
19:20 < Bradipo> solene: Is there some knob that can be tweaked in GENERIC that will limit how much memory the kernel actually makes available from the underlying hardware?
19:20 < Erhard> USe another hypervisor?
19:20 < phy1729> VM then ssh -X?
19:20 < solene> Erhard: using qemu on OpenBSD would be a challenge in itself
19:20 < solene> Bradipo: seems a good idea
19:20 < oldlaptop> No need to limit the host CPU! :P
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19:22 < Erhard> But I meant on the bare metal. Run something else entirely for your test
19:22 < Bradipo> Why not just get an old computer? :-)
19:22 < Erhard> A Raspberry Pi
19:22 < solene> does it look a right value to change? :D https://github.com/openbsd/src/blob/master/sys/arch/amd64/include/vmparam.h#L63
19:22 < Erhard> Or make a free vps someplace, etc.
19:23 < brynet> solene: You can limit memory from the bootloader for OpenBSD as well, w/ "machine mem =512M" in /etc/boot.conf.
19:23 < oldlaptop> Erhard: The newer raspberrypis are pretty fast
19:23 < solene> brynet: perfect <3
19:23 < solene> this is EXACTLY what I was hoping for!
19:23 < Erhard> I meant the old model B with 512MB I have sitting here
19:23 < oldlaptop> my original one would do pretty well, but it can't run openbsd at all
19:24 < oldlaptop> (That's one of the luxurious ones then, mine is 256M)
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19:24 < solene> Bradipo: the point was to allow more people to come to the challenge, the 1st edition was using an old computer but many people didn't have one
19:24 < thrig> probably you won't be compiling firefox for this challenge?
19:24 < Erhard> I have one of those too
19:24 < Bradipo> I see.
19:24 < brynet> solene: I let prahou know and he included it here: https://occ.deadnet.se/how/
19:24 < oldlaptop> The old computer might be cheating if it comes with an old monitor too :D
19:24 < solene> TIL :D
19:24  * oldlaptop hugs the nearest tube
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19:25 < oldlaptop> (Maybe 60Hz CRT could be a challenge. That's getting more serious, eyestrain and so on)
19:25 < thrig> and yea did we bask in the glow of the electron gun
19:26 < thrig> my back does not miss moving those trinitron fishbowls
19:26 < busterbcook> solene you tried setting the memory limit feature at the boot prompt? https://man.openbsd.org/man8/i386/boot.8
19:26 < busterbcook> machine mem =512M
19:26 < busterbcook> (at least it looks like that's what you want - haven't tried it)
19:26 < brynet> I just mentioned that :]
19:27 < busterbcook> you all type too fast!
19:27 < brynet> heh
19:27 < thrig> when I type too fast vi crashes
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19:33 < typicat> :Mason
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19:34 < Bradipo> The Mason command is unknown
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19:43 < solene> brynet: busterbcook: well, that doesn't seem to work, I just have a bunch of lines printed at boot, but I still have 8 GB of mem
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19:49 < brynet> solene: I've used it before, and I know other developers have as well to shake out low memory conditions.
19:50 < brynet> make sure you type it exactly as above, e.g: no space after =
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19:56 < solene> yeah, printf "machine mem =512M\n" > /etc/boot.conf
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20:03  * brynet shrugs
20:04 < brynet> works here in vmm
20:04 < brynet> https://textbin.xyz/?48763655c45ca1bf#385ErHFe76xs5Y2Lkiff2pczkQxoSwcK5ySs8BrQJ9h1
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20:08 < brynet> solene: does hw.physmem show 8GB? where are you seeing it?
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20:08 < brynet> sysctl*
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20:11 < mavavilj> now that I started looking closer
20:11 < mavavilj> it's actually quite surprising how close it seems I can get OpenBSD to my current Ubuntu 20.04
20:11 < mavavilj> but how much less popular OpenBSD is in comparison
20:13 < mavavilj> maybe OpenBSD needs a more polished out-of-the-box experience to appeal to Ubuntu users
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20:15 < ssm_> that's impossible (without building it all in house) due to licensing restrictions, unless you want to fork the whole project with your rules
20:16 < ssm_> even my beloved jwm with an MIT license can't be included in base due to dependency licenses
20:16 < mavavilj> ?
20:17 < ssm_> -s/building/writing
20:17 < ssm_> mavavilj: https://www.openbsd.org/policy.html
20:18 < avemestr> mavavilj: GPLed software is not included in the base install (with some noteworthy exceptions). So, if you by "polished out-of-the-box experience" means so-called modern DEs and such, that'lll be a big job.
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20:19 < mavavilj> yes I know, but I thought MIT is compatible
20:19 < mavavilj> and also that such polished experience can be gained through some other means
20:19 < ssm_> jwm itself is compatible, but jwm's dependencies aren't
20:20 < mavavilj> but just that the key thing was that OpenBSD seeing "hobbyist" might drive people away from realizing that it does pretty much the same thing as their Ubuntu
20:20 < mavavilj> which they now think is superior
20:20 < ssm_> hypothetically if gnome was ISC licensed, it still couldn't be included in base due to all the dependencies having incompatible licenses
20:20 < mavavilj> seeming*
20:20 -!- dastain [~dastain@2a00:d880:6:262::45a3] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20:21 < mavavilj> and maybe one doesn't need the flashy gnome parts
20:21 < mavavilj> but just something that doesn't look like it was made in a rush
20:22 < mavavilj> tbh someone would say this looks like an 80s OS https://debugpointnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/OpenBSD-desktop-7-fvwm.jpg
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20:25 < mavavilj> something that doesn't look like it was made in a rush and something that does look more uniform than throwing in XFCE
20:25 < mavavilj> because I think Ubuntu people are not like Arch people
20:26 < mavavilj> Ubuntu people are like Apple Mac people
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20:31 < mavavilj> but now I also got stuck with getting an installation with a grub-legacy setup in place
20:31 < mavavilj> because the official multiboot guide expects ESP and UEFI
20:31 < mavavilj> I happened to have grub-legacy and BIOS
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20:34 < mavavilj> and there's a guide here https://github.com/krzysztofengineer/openbsd/blob/master/installation/03-installation.md, but no mention of adding it to GRUB
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20:42 < mavavilj> here https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html it says that GRUB should fail
20:43 < mavavilj> here it says how to use GRUB2 https://www.kariliq.nl/openbsd/grub2.html
20:44 < mischief> i think you missed a key sentence there
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20:44 < mischief> > In either case, you are completely on your own.
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20:48 < Bradipo> "polished" is a subjective concept.
20:49 < ssm_> fvwm2 is beautiful
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20:51 < ssm_> why does everyone I see still use tar instead of pax?
20:51 < Bradipo> Haha, well, I don't mind fvwm if/when I have the time to tinker.  But it's fine for casual use.  I have one environment where I haven't bothered installing anything else because fvwm just works well enough.
20:52 < Bradipo> I did use pax for a while.
20:53 < Bradipo> Though, I'm curious why you question it.  Is pax superior to tar in some way?
20:54 < ssm_> it supports ustar (and some other formats), as well as the original tar, and (iirc), tar was deprecated in favor of pax in posix
20:56 < ssm_> also I find the syntax a bit nicer, that's personal though
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20:59 < solene> brynet: top shows 2GB used and 6GB free, and I make 6 mfs of 1 GB and fill them :]
21:00 < Bradipo> Right, as I said, I did try to use pax for a while, but muscle memory, first to market, whatever you want to call it, made it an unsuccessful experiment.
21:01 < Bradipo> For backups though, I'm starting to use dump/restore more often.
21:01 < Bradipo> Maybe not backups, but for transfering filesystems between disks/systems.
21:01 < ssm_> I've used dump/restore for reinstalling many times
21:02 < ssm_> the interactive tool in restore is too useful
21:03 < Bradipo> Never used it interactively.
21:04 < solene> brynet: does this seem a correct output when limiting memory? https://pasteboard.co/hrjPFDf1ZXU9.jpg
21:06 < solene> I have hw.physmem=8435007488 and hw.usermem=8416399360
21:08 < Bradipo> Hmm, that's odd.  It worked for me.
21:08 < Bradipo> I did: boot> machine mem =512M
21:09 < Bradipo> After booting, hw.physmem showed only 520093696
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21:22 < solene> I'm on 7.3
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21:31 < sibiria> Bradipo: though hw.physmem is lower than what the machine actually offers
21:31 < sibiria> it's what's left after openbsd has reserved its (unusally large) chunk for the kernel
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21:33 < sibiria> actually, it's even before that. hw.physmem is before "avail mem" is calculated
21:33 < Bradipo> Mine was 7.2.
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21:34 < sibiria> i don't think any of it changed in a good while. openbsd has been this hungry for years
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21:35 < sibiria> i've got 4096 mb of ram, 128 mb is taken by the igpu and another 44 by... something else, not sure what...
21:35 < sibiria> kernel reports 3924MB "real mem", and 3787MB "avail mem" after the kernel has taken its share it wants
21:36 < sibiria> it's quite a big chunk compared to linux which fences off almost nothing
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21:37 < sibiria> would have to bump "machine mem" parameter a bit more to land closer to 512 mb available for the userland
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22:17 < brynet> solene: that's odd, picture looks correct. not sure what's going on, it's working here on -current and I know it worked in the past.
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22:18 < thrig> old computer challenge: surfacing random bugs
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22:19 < brynet> thrig: only the finest zippy one-liners.
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23:50 < adonis> Whats a good way to allow an ipv6 connectivity through pf directly to a host whose ipv6 can actually change? It's not changing normally but it can change if my ISP assign's a new prefix..
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--- Log closed Sat Jul 08 00:00:03 2023