--- Log opened Sat Jul 08 00:00:03 2023
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02:06 < ssm_> are there any simpler alternatives to ZNC (excluding tmux weechat session over ssh on a vps and similar)
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02:10 < tommyrot> you can run weechat as a relay too
02:11 < fro> is znc complicated
02:11 < tommyrot> no
02:11 < ssm_> to me :(
02:12 < fro> just ssh in and irc from a real irc client
02:13 < oldlaptop> ssm_: I like quassel, which is not in ports but is reasonably easy to build by hand (I'd keep saying "I need to get around to mailing in a port sometime", but someone IIRC actually beat me to it a while back, must just never have gone in)
02:14 < oldlaptop> It is not a bouncer per se, but can fill the same role arguably better
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02:19 < fro> where are you getting stuck with znc?
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02:21 < fro> pretty sure they have a channel on here
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02:38 < pardis> quassel is nice but has the (possibly significant, depending on how diverse your interests are) disadvantage that it cannot be used with just any IRC client, so any client system without all the bells and whistles of Qt cannot connect
02:38 < pardis> (for this reason, I run quassel in front of znc)
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02:43 < SOLARIS_s> hmm
02:44 < oldlaptop> There exists an irssi plugin to talk to it
02:45 < oldlaptop> (I don't know offhand whether it needs qt at all and if so how much - I do distinctly remember the quasseldroid people managed to implement the protocol without qt back when the "protocol" was just squirting serialized QObjects into a socket)
02:46 < pardis> the particular system in question that I encountered without a quassel client was 9front, which also lacks a good teletype emulator, so irssi is unlikely to be a nice experience
02:46 < pardis> there is a teletype emulator which is adequate for ssh into the odd unix system but not much more
02:49 < [Reinhilde]> oh my gourd, you got sucked into the 9tex?
02:49 < [Reinhilde]> (9 vortex)
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02:49 < oldlaptop> I'm told the front fell off.
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02:50 < [Reinhilde]> The plan fell off.
02:50 < [Reinhilde]> The front's still stuck on, thankfully.
02:50 < [Reinhilde]> So they're not leaking oil, like the tanker that they had to tow outside of the environment.
02:51 < [Reinhilde]> not entirely sure how they managed that one.
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06:22 < mavavilj> @mischief (23:44) So you mean that the OpenBSD project hasn't managed to figure out howto use GRUB2?
06:22 < mavavilj> even if it's possibly more likely the be used than refind
06:23 < mavavilj> rEFInd
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07:06 < mischief> mavavilj: i suspect the openbsd project probably does not care about GRUB2.
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07:34 < mavavilj> they should care about multiboot
07:34 < mavavilj> because I think there are far more multiboot users than non-
07:35 < mavavilj> esp. on laptpos
07:35 < mavavilj> laptops*
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07:36 < mavavilj> but now I cannot find info regarding how large the USB disk for installation must be
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07:36 < mavavilj> whether 4GB suffices
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07:57 < quinq> 09:34:52  mavavilj$ because I think there are far more multiboot users than non-
07:57 < quinq> Based on your personal projection?
07:59 < quinq> afaik, grub has support for kopenbsd, it has managed how to boot openbsd, but it been ages since I personally tried
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08:07 < avemestr> mavavilj: Your "opinions on what OpenBSD developers should do" to "diffs submitted to the project" ratio is way off.
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08:56 < lts> That is a classic ad hominem there :-) 
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08:59 < mavavilj> @quinq No based on the availability of software
08:59 < mavavilj> @avemestr Well you cannot expect newbies to have much insight, but they still want the OS installed
09:00 < mavavilj> I would do the guide myself, but I presumed that someone else knows more about triple boots
09:00 < mavavilj> I am currently going to do a Windows/Linux dual-OS disk and a OpenBSD dedicated disk
09:01 < mavavilj> but it's only because triple boot seems risky due to lacking info on OpenBSD
09:01 < mavavilj> some info says that it should work just like any other EFI OS if it's just installed after Windows
09:02 < mavavilj> and it seems like EFI is the preferred way anyways
09:04 < mavavilj> but the other possibility is of course that one doesn't need a Linux if one has OpenBSD
09:04 < quinq> I prefer MBR boot
09:04 < mavavilj> I just had a MBR triple boot
09:04 < mavavilj> and it's certainly messier
09:05 < mavavilj> or well, I think I installed it in the wrong order
09:05 < mavavilj> rather than Windows first
09:05 < mavavilj> it works, but it's messy
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09:05 < mavavilj> I wonder how much can I trust that when moving from an Ubuntu system (like many others may)
09:06 < mavavilj> then how much of the same software am I able to regain on OpenBSD
09:06 < mavavilj> so that I can continue on what I had on Ubuntu
09:06 < mavavilj> without reinstalling Ubuntu
09:06 < mavavilj> Android Studio is one big thing that I think is missing
09:07 < mavavilj> and it would be unideal with Windows
09:07 < mavavilj> to that's perhaps a Linux use case still
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09:12 < mavavilj> what's "c" in # dd if=install*.img of=/dev/rsd6c bs=1M
09:12 < mavavilj> if r is for raw access
09:12 < mavavilj> rsd6c
09:12 < martian67> c = whole disk "partition"
09:12 < mavavilj> ok
09:12 < martian67> same thing as sd0 in linux
09:12 < martian67> roughly
09:13 < martian67> err
09:13 < martian67> sda
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09:16 < mavavilj> yes and Android NDK only has win/mac/linux
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09:33 < mavavilj> I think something is wrong with the dd command
09:33 < mavavilj> because I do:
09:33 < mavavilj> sudo dd if=install73.img of=/dev/rsdcc bs=1M
09:33 < mavavilj> 664+1 records in
09:33 < mavavilj> 664+1 records out
09:33 < mavavilj> 696745984 bytes (697 MB, 664 MiB) copied, 0,25397 s, 2,7 GB/s
09:33 < mavavilj> and then when I look at the disk it still says "Free Space"
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09:35 < typicat> rsdcc?
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09:37 < martian67> you copied to a file named rsdcc mavavilj
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09:39 < mavavilj> did it create it somewhere
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09:40 < mavavilj> oh yes I found them under /dev/
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09:41 < mavavilj> but the device is sdc
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09:47 < quinq> Regarding my problems of yesterday with NFS
09:47 < quinq> Rebooting solved the issue :/
09:48 < quinq> Although I tried several times before that to restart portmap, then nfsd, then reloading mountd
09:48 < quinq> several times
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09:56 < lac> mavavilj: the device is likely /dev/rsd2c and if not 2 then some other number 
09:57 < lac> sdc would be the equivalent of sd2 on linux 
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10:06 < solene> lac: depends, if there is a nvme drive, it's accounted differently
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10:07 < quinq> And now, after any restart of portmap+nfsd, I get the same error again: mount.nfs: portmap query retrying: RPC: Program not registered
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10:08 < solene> quinq: did you try killing mountd?
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10:09 < quinq> solene, I heard it's not supposed to be stopped ever :/
10:10 < quinq> /etc/rc.d/mountd: restart is not supported
10:10 < solene> quinq: yeah, just kill it :D but before, what does showmount -e show?
10:10 < solene> (something or nothing)
10:11 < quinq> :D
10:11 < quinq> Sorry, I just killed it when you told me to
10:11 < quinq> AND
10:11 < quinq> It seems to solve the issue :)
10:11 < lac> solene: i can't recall anything specific to nvme drives, but i know the name ordering varies with additional drives plugged in 
10:11 < quinq> So thank you
10:12 < lac> that's happy 
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10:15 < solene> quinq: faster than a reboot :)
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10:16 < solene> lac: nvme drive on linux are shown as /dev/nvmen0 if you have an extra sata drive, it will be /dev/sda, so those disks on openbsd would be /dev/sd0 and /dev/sd1 but you don't know the order
10:16 < lac> oh you meant linux
10:16 < solene> yes sorry ^^
10:16 < lac> duh
10:16 < lac> i knew that i was just stuck in openbsd mode haha
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10:17 < lac> i'm sure my original phrasing was ambiguous 
10:18 < solene> lac: mine too, I just said it was different (between openbsd and linux)
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10:21 < quinq> solene, and way less bothersome (thanks for ISP ever-changing IP addresses)
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12:09 < mavavilj> @lac I wonder how to find that number
12:10 < mavavilj> since the website was not really helpful
12:11 < mavavilj> lsblk says it's sdc
12:12 < mavavilj> or well, sdc1 when it's partitioned
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12:17 < mavavilj> but I don't get it
12:18 < mavavilj> I can see sdc and sdc1 under /dev/
12:18 < mavavilj> so why would it be something else
12:22 < mavavilj> oh yes the problem is because that guide was for OpenBSD
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12:22 < mavavilj> so certainly it's not rsdcc under Linux
12:22 < mavavilj> but just sdc or sdc1
12:22 < mavavilj> and Ubuntu doesn't seem to use the r flag either
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12:29 < mavavilj> nevermind, explanation here: https://superuser.com/questions/1565320/create-bootable-usb-for-openbsd-from-ubuntu
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13:02 < Xeroine> Hi, I can't figure out how to setup nfs to work well on the client. I think I understand how to use -maproot and -mapall but the permissions for files in the nfs mount are using the UIDs and GIDs of the nfs server users and groups so when I edit some file in vim for example it shows a warning that the file is read-only but since -maproot or -mapall is configured correctly I'm able to write to the
13:02 < Xeroine> file by just using `:w!` but I'd prefer not to do this. Is there some solution here besides just setting all the files on the server as read and write by others?
13:03 < thrig> generally some means (NIS, LDAP, other) was used to make uid and gid match on all the relevant systems
13:04 < Xeroine> ah thanks, I've heard of those but never looked into what they really are
13:05 < thrig> "other" these days includes configuration management such as Ansible and so forth
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13:23 < mavavilj> just dded install73.img to an usb disk
13:24 < mavavilj> but when booting to it it just displays some text and then the computer goes to my normal grub
13:24 < mavavilj> not sure what's wrong
13:24 < mavavilj> maybe it doesn't like grub?
13:24 < IcePic> sounds more like you didn't manage to tell the machine to not look where that old grub was installed
13:25 < mavavilj> perhaps
13:26 < mavavilj> also do I need to put bios to non-legacy?
13:26 < mavavilj> it's now in legacy mode
13:27 < thrig> or the dd was wrong so usb was ignored for booting, or ...
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13:28 < mavavilj> no but on first boot I saw the prompt
13:28 < mavavilj> but then it displayed some error very quickly
13:28 < mavavilj> and went to grub
13:28 < mavavilj> now it doesn't even stay in the prompt
13:28 < mavavilj> it just goes to grub after flashing text quickly
13:29 < mavavilj> so I sort of think the disk is fine
13:29 < mavavilj> but my boot sequence isn't
13:29 < IcePic> I'm not sure, but perhaps all these "some error", "some text" could be slightly more literal and less vague?
13:29 < mavavilj> I think it goes to the OpenBSD prompt and notices that something is off
13:29 < mavavilj> then quits
13:29 < mavavilj> well how am I going to read that error
13:29 < mavavilj> in the prompt
13:29 < mavavilj> because it just flashes
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13:29 < mavavilj> any other way to check the disk?
13:30 < mavavilj> can I boot it on virtual box
13:30 < sibiria> you should be able to, yes
13:30 < mavavilj> so what will I check then?
13:30 < mavavilj> if it works for that does not imply it will work for my computer
13:30 < sibiria> can't recall if vbox reads raw disk images, but you can convert it to e.g. vdi
13:30 < mavavilj> but maybe it'll signal whether the disk is okay
13:32 < mavavilj> or maybe the problem could be some of these: https://github.com/krzysztofengineer/openbsd/blob/master/installation/02-bios-setup.md#config--security-settings
13:32 < sibiria> Secure Boot *usually* (not always) complicate things a bit
13:32 < mavavilj> maybe that's worth checking at least
13:33 < sibiria> BIOS compat/legacy mode may sometimes get in the way, too
13:34 < sibiria> aka "CSM"
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13:40 < mavavilj> okay so I managed to record the error to video
13:40 < mavavilj> it displays boot>
13:40 < mavavilj> then:
13:41 < mavavilj> cannot open hd0a:/etc/random.seed: No such file or directory
13:42 < mavavilj> booting hd0a:7.3/amd64/bsd.rd: 3924676:
13:42 < mavavilj> then it seems like it exits and the normal grub comes up
13:42 < sibiria> random.seed not required for booting, so that part is ok
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13:44 < mavavilj> maybe it crashes after that 3924676, whatever that is
13:44 < mavavilj> since https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=bugs@openbsd.org&q=subject:%22kernel+panic%22&o=newest&f=1 has a longer text at that point
13:44 < IcePic> yeah, that is the ELF loader that lists the various segments it reads
13:45 < IcePic> should be some 3-4 values with + in between
13:46 < sibiria> so it looks like the kernel is crashing (or exiting and handing over to something?) before it gets going with its init
13:46 < mavavilj> I wonder if it's more likely an error with the disk or my bios
13:47 < sibiria> it could be either
13:47 < sibiria> but
13:47 < mavavilj> I would still guess the disk is okay
13:47 < sibiria> i notice you're trying to boot the ramdisk kernel, so you could try putting the same on a USB disk and booting that
13:47 < mavavilj> because the dd was certainly right and so is the .img
13:48 < mavavilj> what? It's I dd'ed install73.img to an USB disk
13:48 < sibiria> oh you are booting the installer
13:48 < sibiria> i'm sure the USB stick is fine then
13:48 < mavavilj> me too
13:48 < sibiria> i'd go into BIOS and switch everything over to EFI
13:48 < sibiria> disable secure boot and CSM
13:48 < sibiria> see what happens
13:48 < mavavilj> a guide said that OpenBSD should work with legacy
13:48 < mavavilj> but maybe that's not the case
13:49 < mavavilj> or maybe it applies to different version
13:49 < lac> it's wonky 
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13:49 < sibiria> it works fine in legacy BIOS mode, but it also works fine on EFI
13:49 < lac> definitely try both 
13:49 < sibiria> but CSM and Secure Boot can be quirky
13:49 < sibiria> strict EFI will behave mostly the same on computers these days, but in CSM mode the different manufacturers do a few things differently
13:50 < lac> also sorry mavavilj i was mia but looks like others have helped you along 
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13:50 < thrig> various random Dells across the years did or did not work with legacy BIOS, or did or did not work with EFI
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13:53 < mavavilj> okay so by switching the bios to UEFI
13:54 < mavavilj> it does go all the way to where one can choose (I) Install, (S) Shell etc.
13:54 < lac> i
13:54 < lac> nice
13:54 < mavavilj> so maybe it's just specific to this HP Elitebook 8470p
13:54 < mavavilj> and its legacy
13:55 < lac> fyi when it asks you to select your disk hit ? and you should see the human readable name of the drive you wish to install to 
13:55 < mavavilj> I was thinking of switching to EFI anyways
13:56 < mavavilj> even when I thought it was irrelevant for < 2TB drives
13:56 < mavavilj> but because it seems much more sensible than Grub
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14:10 < morpho> are there any tools to assist style formatting for KNF/oBSD style 
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14:12 < IcePic> I think someone posted an elisp knf-mode long time ago. Perhaps maillists have it
14:13 < IcePic> https://github.com/hogand/openbsd-knf-emacs
14:13 < IcePic> early hit on google
14:13 < thrig> why are you hitting on google again
14:13 < IcePic> When I hit on google, it hits on me!
14:13 < morpho> yeah I saw that, and some effort to get clang-format to do KNF by NetBSD team
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14:42 < jordan> 2
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16:19 < mavavilj> I have to say that OpenBSD is much nicer after I changed the odd default background
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16:20 < mavavilj> what is the grid which is seen when a window is dragged
16:21 < mavavilj> in fvwm
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16:21 < ssm_> it shows where the window will be when you release the mouse cursor
16:21 < ssm_> that style of rendering saves resources, rather than redrawing the window every frame when you drag it around
16:23 < mavavilj> I thought it was related to the grid on the right corner
16:23 < mavavilj> like some sort of tiling thing
16:23 < mavavilj> the background should definitely not be that two-colored one
16:24 < mavavilj> because it blinked on my laptop
16:24 < mavavilj> it gives a very unprofessional impression
16:24 < mavavilj> blinked, or flickered
16:26 < ssm_> I think the background is like that so you can see the exact amount of pixels windows are separated by, I don't actually know though
16:28 < avemestr> Old(ish) discussion on the topic: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=145756570021350&w=2
16:28 < ssm_> there's other funky pixmaps in /usr/X11R6/include/bitmaps you can try
16:30 < ssm_> or install hsetroot from ports and use an actual image
16:30 < avemestr> Or feh or whatever.
16:31 < ssm_> if you use a compositor like picom it breaks the pixmap rendering for some reason anyways
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16:37 < oldlaptop> mavavilj: That's actually the stipple pattern doing what it's supposed to, sort of: exposing a problem with your display (it shouldn't flicker)
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16:39 < oldlaptop> in practice it's probably not very helpful in that case because you probably can't adjust a laptop's LCD to fix whatever's wrong; in the old days it would help tune a tube in, or in the somewhat less-old days it could help some of the adjustments (clock/phase for example) on an LCD monitor (that you usually don't have on a laptop panel)
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16:44 < mavavilj> @oldlaptop yes the first thing I thought was to upgrade graphics drivers
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16:46 < mavavilj> but I mean I think I saw a similar problem 
16:46 < mavavilj> in Arch Linux or something
16:46 < oldlaptop> You'll probably find at least one of these does something unpleasant.
16:46 < oldlaptop> http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/inversion.php
16:46 < mavavilj> and then it was related to having default generic VGA drivers
16:47 < mavavilj> rather than those of the graphics card vendor
16:48 < mavavilj> and actually not that I restarted
16:48 < mavavilj> now it doesn't flicker
16:48 < mavavilj> but I forgot what I did before this reboot
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16:51 < ssm_> mavavilj: change your background to xsnow, it is beautiful
16:52 < mavavilj> but it actually also seems that it installed the right drivers
16:52 < mavavilj> so that's an improvement from Arch Linux
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16:53 < mavavilj> I wanted to have some sort of tiling functions for the windows
16:53 < mavavilj> well actually the screen doesn't flicker 
16:53 < mavavilj> but I can see weak "stripes" going
16:54 < mavavilj> so maybe the refresh rate and the background just don't fit
16:54 < ssm_> of the included window managers, only cwm has some usable form of tiling, but it's very rudimentary and probably not what you expect. You'll want to install something like ratpoison from ports if you want a proper tiler
16:54 < mavavilj> or my screen is too slow
16:55 < mavavilj> what about just extending fvwm
16:55 < mavavilj> it seemed like it should tile
16:55 < mavavilj> and snap to other windows
16:56 < ssm_> fvwm2 supports window snapping, but annoyingly not snap-to-edge, have to install fvwm3 for that
16:56 < ssm_> I don't know of any tiling support in fvwm2
16:56 < mavavilj> snap-to-edge
16:57 < mavavilj> you mean when I drag from a corner
16:57 < ssm_> snap-to-edge-of-screen
16:57 < ssm_> instead of other windows
16:57 < mavavilj> oh yes
16:57 < mavavilj> but dragging from corners
16:57 < mavavilj> does give a kind of gridding
16:58 < mavavilj> or is it specific to xterm
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17:07 < mavavilj> no disown in OpenBSD?
17:08 < solene> mavavilj: no
17:08 < mavavilj> so bg is enough?
17:08 < mavavilj> when detaching a terminal
17:09 < ssm_> mavavilj: ~/bin/fork #!/bin/sh\n"$@" > /dev/null 2>&1 &
17:09 < mavavilj> I'm not that expert with unix yet
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17:12 < ssm_> it redirects stderr into stdout, then directs stdout into /dev/null, and parallelizes the process
17:12 < oldlaptop> you might perhaps want tmux?
17:14 < mavavilj> I wonder what's a good reference
17:14 < mavavilj> for getting OpenBSD level Unix knowledge
17:14 < mavavilj> when I was using Linux I didn't even have to do this much
17:14 < ssm_> openbsd is a great (if not the best) unix for beginners in my opinion, the documentation is all there, you just have to read it :)
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17:15 < ssm_> apropos(1) helps a lot
17:16 < oldlaptop> The thing about manual pages is that they're *generally* reference documentation. ksh(1) doesn't give you a tutorial introduction to shell scripting, it's a reference for ksh and its language
17:16 < ssm_> there is /etc/examples for some things
17:17 < oldlaptop> Some of the books at https://www.openbsd.org/books.html may be of interest; unfortunately Absolute OpenBSD 2E is quite old now.
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17:23 < ssm_> followup from the other day, claws-mail is great, too bad I now I have to sync all the claws-mail configs on all the devices I use so I have the same mail processing everywhere
17:27 < oldlaptop> Oh, one note about the "SMM" mentioned at that link: there *are* a few pieces of it in the OpenBSD source tree, though not hooked up to the build in any way. https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/src/sbin/fsck_ffs/SMM.doc/ is interesting reading, for example
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17:31 < mavavilj> I thought I needed to go back to Linuxes
17:31 < mavavilj> but after the initial OpenBSD experience I'm thinking that I will be using Void Linux much less
17:31 < mavavilj> just need to get Android Studio etc. to OpenBSD somehow
17:37 < IanJ> You know it makes sense ;)
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17:49 < black_dinamo> I'm coming from Void to OpenBSD, by now im reading the docs and reading some mails from the mailing list. It seems very interesting.
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17:56 < ssm_> did something happen to void?
17:57 < terminaldweller> nope. void is fine.
17:58 < black_dinamo> fine, and I like it pretty much. Currently i use both x86_64 and i686, installed from base image.
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18:59 < ssm_> https://0x0.st/H1Ud.png why are these claws-mail processing rules not triggering on mail from openbsd.org?
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19:06 < pardis> is that really an en dash, or do you have a funky font that renders a hyphen like an en dash?
19:07 < ssm_> en dash?
19:08 < ssm_> you mean the ~from? that's a ~
19:08 < pardis> no, I mean between owner and ports
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19:08 < ssm_> it's just a regular dash, unless it got transcoded somehow
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19:09 < thrig> https://thrig.me/tmp/whatchar.txt
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19:33 < xse> don't use claws, my filter looks more like "From or Sender or CC contains ports@openbsd.org" dropping the owner part
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19:42 < ssm_> xse: https://0x0.st/H10o.png these are the rules I ended up with, they've worked so far
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19:50 < xse> sweet
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21:41 < jf> I use the "List-ID" header for the filtering rules. Having said that .. do what works ..
21:54 < ssm_> jf: good idea, I'll do that instead
21:54 < ssm_> didn't think to look at the actual message source
21:55 < lavaball> i think next update i'll stick with stable. not that current is bad or anything, but the packages aren't new enough so i have to use linux anyway.
21:56 < phy1729> If the packages aren't new enough on current, you can help fix that.
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21:57 < ssm_> lavaball: I use stable and if I need something from -current (or newer) I backport it and build on stable
21:58 < ssm_> don't make the embarrassing mistake I did though and assume that because it builds on -stable it'll build on -current, and then submit a port to ports@ without testing in a -current vm at least
21:59 < lavaball> i still haven't managed to write a bug report for x crashing when i open a terminal while in video fullscreen. but thanks for the advice.
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22:01 < lavaball> also i do'nt know why snes9x crashes when i run any turtles 4 version. everything else works fine.
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