--- Log opened Mon Jul 10 00:00:42 2023
--- Day changed Mon Jul 10 2023
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01:47 < brocashelm> what the... https://xenocara.org/Wayland_on_OpenBSD.html
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01:50 < thrig> why is that page 5.43 megabytes
01:52 < thrig> (or, larger than the complete works of Shakespeare)
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01:57 < brocashelm> i'm disappointed to read this
01:58 < jcs> wow
01:58 < jcs> looks like it has inlined bootstrap css, jquery, some syntax highlighting javascript, and a base64-encoded truetype font
01:59 < jcs> that's... one way to do it
01:59 < brocashelm> april fool's was three months ago, too
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02:03 < thrig> actual content... two orders of magnitude less
02:03 < oldlaptop> brocashelm: It's at the *very* least possible that wayland will be the only reasonably maintainable option at some point
02:05 < oldlaptop> (It's already becoming necessary to port some wayland-related glue to run other ports - notably this is why kde plasma is still not there)
02:05 < tommyrot> article was posted on HN which has some insightful comments about he porting efforts
02:06 < tommyrot> let's see if i can find the link
02:06 < tommyrot> oh frontpage, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36659859
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02:17 < martian67> oh no not 5.4 megabytes how will my 28.8 dialup cope
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02:29 < systemdsucks> eww wayland
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05:05 < MrAwesome> still haven't even tried wayland on linux tbh but props to that person for putting in so much effort, that's pretty cool
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05:17 < pardis> I must admit to being a bit baffled as to why this is something users care about at all
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05:17 < pardis> it's part of the infrastructure of the OS, it's something developers should worry about and users shouldn't even be aware of if it's doing its job
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05:19 < pardis> (compare with X11, which users are very aware of because it has never been very good at its job)
05:20  * oldlaptop cares insofar as there's no real replacement for X's network transparency
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05:26 < pardis> that's a fair point, although wouldn't something like xpra work under Wayland? afaik it has compatibility for X clients
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06:46 < quinq> What matters for developpers matters for users because there are direct consequences
06:47 < quinq> There's no “oh it's shitty for developers, but it's ok for users”
06:47 < quinq> That's a lie
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07:33 < nedko> oldlaptop: in wayland dislike the GPU requirement but it is not a an argument as that is part of the wayland project assumptions. it seems that there is network transparency for wayland these days: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe
07:33 < nedko> *i dislike
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08:10 < dennis> huh. with ftp(1), if you give the `-o` flag with a static path and filename (eg /var/cache/test), the path is ignored if you specify `-o` *after* the url you're fetching, but not if you place it before.
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08:11 < dennis> i.e. `/root # doas -u nobody ftp -o /tmp/73.html https://www.openbsd.org/73.html` works fine, but `/root # doas -u nobody ftp https://www.openbsd.org/73.html -o /tmp/73.html` fails because `nobody` can't access `/root/73.html`
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08:13 < dennis> anybody know if is this intended behaviour? At first glance I cant see that the manpage specifies this, but I've only checked the obvious places and tried searching. I haven't read the whole thing.
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08:38 < solene> dennis: I don't think you are supposed to use flags after the url
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08:43 < dennis> You're right. I'm getting confused because I specified the same name as the file is actually named. If I had specified any other name I'd seen that `-o` is just ignored if specified after the url. PEBCAK :)
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08:46 < quinq> dennis, that's how standard utilities parsing works, unless explicitely stated otherwise
08:46 < quinq> s/parsing/option &/
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12:35 < Xeroine> Here https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq16.html it's mentioned that I will need a processor capable of nested paging support to use vmm. I'm on a raspberry pi 4b, it has a Cortex-A72. That egrep command returned nothing and there is only the vmd command available, no vmctl and if I try to `rcctl start` it it fails. This isn't looking too good but I'm just wondering is this just not implemented on
12:36 < Xeroine> arm64 OpenBSD or am I gonna be unable to run any vms due to hardware limitations?
12:36 < Xeroine> I tried looking but couldn't find if the raspberry pi or the specific CPU is capable of nested paging.
12:36 < Xeroine> It's been a while since I ran linux on it but I think I recall it could run KVM VMs fine
12:37 < oldlaptop> As far as I know, vmm(4) is amd64-only. (technically i386, but I'm not sure any i386-only CPU exists which can support it)
12:38 < Xeroine> ah okay, thanks then =/
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12:45 < sibiria> you'll have to settle for qemu
12:46 < Xeroine> oh right forgot it still has qemu
12:48 < sibiria> it won't be snappy, but it'll work
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13:08 < eea> a snappy rpi?
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13:08 < eea> where can i get one?
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13:11 < sibiria> rpi5 might be the one
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13:27 < mavavilj> does OpenBSD have some connection to Plan 9?
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13:30 < IcePic> mavavilj: nopes
13:30 < thrig> 'n' in index 3
13:30 < mavavilj> Why not
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13:31 < mavavilj> I am not an expert, but I've thought Plan 9 being influential for uniform OSes
13:31 < oldlaptop> OpenBSD is a unix (more or less), and Plan 9 is not unix
13:31 < mavavilj> yes but Plan 9 has ideas w.r.t. uniformity
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13:33 < mavavilj> I was interested in the custom C++ dialect on it
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13:34 < byteskeptical> has this been posted already? https://xenocara.org/Wayland_on_OpenBSD.html
13:34 < oldlaptop> C++ dialect? I was aware they more or less forked C, but as far as I can tell the plan 9 world's attitude towards C++ ranges from polite neglect to bitter hostility
13:34 < thrig> and beyond!
13:35 < oldlaptop> (with the 9front/catv wing definitely settled on hostility)
13:35 < thrig> some game devs seem to like some form of C++?
13:35 < mavavilj> no I thought they attempted an improved C but whoch is not C++
13:36 < avemestr> It's called Go(lang) nowadays :-)
13:36 < oldlaptop> Plan 9's "C" compiler doesn't implement standard C, if that's what you're getting at.
13:36 < mavavilj> and I've thought that OSes surely should "Tier 1" more than C
13:36 < thrig> many folks tried to improve C, hence D or Objective C or ...
13:36 < mavavilj> there was a lenghty discussion in Linuxes about this
13:37 < mavavilj> and some thought C# was closest to the ideal
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13:37 < oldlaptop> It's not "more than C" in the way you seem to think
13:37 < oldlaptop> (C# is more or less categorically unsuitable for OS work.)
13:38 < mavavilj> no but as the official userspace language
13:38 < oldlaptop> (in precisely the same way java is, for precisely the same reasons, because it's just microsoft knock-off java)
13:38 < oldlaptop> I wasn't aware OpenBSD had an "official userspace language".
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13:39 < mavavilj> "Plan 9 from Bell Labs has always been a system above the rest: simple, portable, and feature-complete. It isn't UNIX;® rather, it improves on the basics of UNIX by providing a number of features absent from most other operating systems. One of those features is a great programming environment that rivals UNIX's."
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13:39 < mavavilj> that is why I asked whether there is Plan 9 influence
13:39 < mavavilj> because it could be useful
13:39 < thrig> for ... ?
13:39 < oldlaptop> Other than the practical requirement that system calls go through libc, there isn't anything to restrict you from using whatever language you want. OpenBSD ships stuff written in C, C++, ksh, and perl (and therefore implementations of all of those) off the top of my head
13:40 < mavavilj> for a "great programming environment"
13:41 < mavavilj> that rivals UNIX's
13:41 < thrig> apparently the great programming environment wasn't good enough to make lots of folks switch
13:41 < oldlaptop> OpenBSD can't provide (all of) Plan 9's programming environment, because it provides a unix programming environment instead.
13:41 < mavavilj> yes because Plan 9 has other problems
13:41 < oldlaptop> (plan9port is in ports)
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13:48 < mavavilj> The Plan 9 C compiler originated at Bell Labs alongside the Plan 9 and Inferno operating systems. It was part of the initial development toolchain for Go 
13:48 < mavavilj> But I wonder how'd Go fit with openness
13:48 < thrig> (go is in ports)
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13:49 < mavavilj> but is it philosophically sound
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13:50 < thrig> no, because Gödel
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13:53 < mavavilj> https://www.glendix.org/
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14:05 < falsifian> Is man -a broken for anyone else? Or am I using it wrong? "man -a printf" just shows the printf(1) page; after I press "q" to leave less, printf(3) is not shown.
14:06 < falsifian> On -current and 7.3
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14:07 < falsifian> Oops, never mind. It's all pasted together in the same less invocation.
14:07 < oldlaptop> falsifian: might also be more useful with -w
14:08 < falsifian> Thanks oldlaptop, that's indeed useful!
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15:24 < thesemicolons> httpd doesn't seem to be sending gzip'd content for me when I don't include "index.html" at the end of a URL (https://example.com = not gzip'd, https://example.com/index.html = gzip'd). What am I missing in my httpd.conf? https://clbin.com/3Wo2m
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15:33 < xse> thesemicolons: not sure tho i recall needing that pass thing for / to rewrite properly https://0x0.st/Hjr4.conf
15:34 < thesemicolons> xse: ahh, I was going to see if locaiton rewrite would work, but wanted to ask before I tried to make it more complicated than it had to be
15:40 < thesemicolons> Still not seeing gzip, I'll have to look at it later when I have more time.
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16:00 < fischer3> Hello, I just put up a brand new website with httpd on 7.3 and all went smoothly. My config is extremely basic. After, followed RZ's guide (to the letter) for getting tls with acme-client. https://romanzolotarev.com/openbsd/acme-client.html. Completing the final section “Enable HTTPS and restart the daemon”, I ran httpd -n and got some errors I
16:00 < fischer3> see that RZ’s tutorial was tested on 6.6 beta, so maybe some things have changed since. Would someone be kind as enlighten me how to correct this error>? Paste configs/errors http://ix.io/4AhI
16:02 < phy1729> You have require strip 2 in the first block. See /etc/examples/httpd.conf for an example that's kept up to date
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16:19 < fischer3> phy1729 thanks will look
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16:27 < fischer3> worked with the example template and fixed quickly, I appreciate it! phy1729
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17:47 < fifi> hey, I have got a problem, I am trying to download some torrents, it detects peers and seeds, but just won't download, what can I do? I tried to disable the pf but didn't change anything :(
17:50 < jcs> surely it's your operating system
17:51 < thrig> stop calling me Shirley
17:51 < fifi> it's a freshly installed openBSd 7.3
18:02 < avemestr> Can be anything. Your ISP blocking bittorrent traffic, other clients not liking your client, missing write permissions on the download folder or whatever.
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18:15 < fifi> ok
18:16 < fifi> :)
18:16 < fifi> tnx
18:18 < sibiria> fifi: if you're in a private network, make sure your router forwards one port to your torrent client, so that others can connect to you
18:18 < fifi> I've used linux yesterday and torrents were downloading fine
18:18 < sibiria> very few bittorrent users do this, and the case is often that nobody can connect to anyone else
18:19 < sibiria> for any peer there will be both attempst to connect to new users in the swarm, and accepting connections from old users in the swarm
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19:35 < fifi> does something like ssh client exist?
19:35 < avemestr> Something like "ssh" in the base install?
19:36 < fifi> yeah like a gui ssh or something :>
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19:36 < fifi> I'd like openBSD to remember commands I put in terminal
19:36 < fifi> I don't remember how to do it
19:36 < fifi> or maybe I should just remember IP of my VPS and do that
19:36 < quinq> Rather use DNS
19:36 < phy1729> https://man.openbsd.org/ksh#HISTFILE or setup an alias in .ssh/config
19:37 < avemestr> Add the following lines to your .profile: 
19:37 < avemestr> HISTFILE="$HOME/.ksh_history" 
19:37 < avemestr> HISTSIZE=5000yy
19:37 < quinq> But you can also have a simple script that adds your known_host contents to your ssh command completion
19:37 < BadCoderFinger> Most shells can use /etc/hosts for completion...
19:37 < avemestr> Without the "yy"...
19:37 < quinq> yeye avemestr 
19:38 < thrig> HISTSIZE=5000:wq is also traditional
19:38 < avemestr> :)
19:39 < avemestr> Or use .ssh/config to setup a friendly name you can recall for your VPS.
19:39 < fifi> oo true! :)
19:39 < fifi> ok, thans :)
19:39 < fifi> thanks :)
19:39 < fifi> valuable knowledge here
19:40 < avemestr> fifi: So you .ssh/config could be like: Host MyVPS\nHostname 123.123.123.123  
19:41 < avemestr> fifi: Then you can do "ssh MyVPS" and it'll use the IP.
19:41 < fifi> great! thanks! :)
19:41 < avemestr> Also nifty if you run sshd on a non-standard port at the VPS, because you could add "Port 12345" on a separate line as well.
19:41 -!- memset [~memset@gateway/tor-sasl/memset] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:41 < steerpike> need indentation before HostName
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19:42 < avemestr> Yes, sorry, \n\t.
19:44 < fifi> yeah openBSD on vps is amazing! :) ok thanks :)
19:47 < Bradipo> Regarding "mode roundrobin": http://man.openbsd.org/relayd.conf#mode~5
19:48 < Bradipo> It's apparently the default.
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19:48 < Bradipo> I suppose that means it's the default for *all* types, e.g. redirections, relays, etc.?
19:50 < Bradipo> Or, is it just "inherited" by virtue of the fact that the table is being used by redirections and relays?
19:52 < steerpike> considering openbsd still isn't very good with multi-core support, are you better off getting a vps with a single core?
19:52 < Bradipo> What are your criteria for claiming that multi-core support "isn't very good"?
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19:53 < steerpike> Bradipo: running openbsd as a router
19:53 < Bradipo> Sorry, what is the basis for your claim that "multi-core support isn't very good"?
19:54 < Bradipo> What specifically do you find "not good" with the multi-core support and what are you trying to do that would be improved by "better" multi-core support?
19:54 < steerpike> i tried running it on apu4d4, and it couldn't handle a full gigabit throughput
19:54 < Bradipo> I see, and that's due to multi-core problems?
19:54 < steerpike> yes, because pppoe can only make use of a single core
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19:55 < steerpike> i'm sure pppoe wasn't the only bottleneck
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19:59 < fifi> ok I managed to make .ssh/config file right, thanks for help :)
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20:03 < avemestr> Linux and FreeBSD (and deriviative "router OSes") gets 1Gbps on the APU2 devices. I've seen OpenBSD climb from 450 to 600Mbps or so over the last couple of releases. It's my impression it is mostly do to the work being done on the giant kernel lock.
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20:05 < sibiria> i get 1 gbit/sec through the network with my (modern) celeron
20:06 < avemestr> Then again, the GX-412TC is a 9 year old processor and the APU2 platform is EOL, so one might "naturally" upgrade to a just slightly more powerful CPU..
20:06 < sibiria> 10nm thing, circa 2021
20:06 < sibiria> the previous celeron i ran, 2016 model, managed about 750 mbit
20:08 < sibiria> steerpike: networking is certainly slower than on linux, but it's not a case of openbsd not knowing how to smp. thankfully you don't need a beefy CPU to reach the 1 gbit/sec mark
20:09 < steerpike> anything you recommend that isn't a desktop pc, ie, another router board?
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20:10 < avemestr> The GX-412TC gets a single thread rating of 254 and multi-thread of 641 (6W). A Celeron J4125 found in some Protectli devices gets scores of 1168/2978 in same benchmark (10W).
20:10 < avemestr> Passmark score, that is'.
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20:11 < sibiria> steerpike: presuming you find a board with a NIC openbsd has support for, i think you'll be fine with anything celeron/atom made the last 2-3 years. i run an odroid h3 since ~6 months and i'm very happy with that
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20:12 < avemestr> steerpike: There's a bunch of such thingies available. E.g. Qotom (seems to be marketed as "Protectli" in the west), or TLSense if you're from Sweden, etc. etc.
20:14 < fifi> oh I wonder how I got pulseaudio on my laptop? :P
20:19 < avemestr> steerpike: SuperMicro also have a ton of devices that fits the bill. Quite expensive outsite the US, though.
20:19 < brocashelm> retrace your steps with pkg_delete pulseaudio :P
20:19 < steerpike> cool, they make 1u server racks https://www.jetwaycomputer.com/JBC153F9HG.html
20:20 < steerpike> but it's a Celeron N2930 from Q1'14
20:20 < quinq> haha
20:20 < quinq> “Long-Life” “Q1'2029”
20:20 < quinq> Why are they contradicting themselves in the very same sentence
20:21 < steerpike> maybe it's an old model
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20:21 < oldlaptop> 2014 - 2019 is a solid 15 years, that's not bad at all
20:22 < steerpike> https://www.jetwaycomputer.com/1U-Rackmount-Barebones.html
20:22 < quinq> Ah, right steerpike, I thought this was a new thing
20:22 < quinq> oldlaptop, 2014-2019 counts for 5 (solid) years here, not 15
20:23 < oldlaptop> 2029, rather :|
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20:24 < oldlaptop> Also that reads like intel's planned production life for the chip, the boards are hardly going to ship with a special suicide module to brick them on May 1 2029
20:24 < quinq> Ah :)
20:24 < avemestr> Just get one of these and be done with it: https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/system/iot/1u/sys-510d-4c-fn6p
20:24 < quinq> Though it seems to be from 2018 at best
20:24 < avemestr> (Your electrical company will love you for using that for routing duties!)
20:24  * oldlaptop awaits the introduction of rackmount boxes with built-in suicide modules to brick them on May 1 2029
20:24 < quinq> (initial bios release date)
20:24 < quinq> So 10 years, not too bad either
20:24 < oldlaptop> avemestr: Because it has active PFC?
20:24 < steerpike> Bradipo: i remember now.. it was pppoe + vlan, they're both incapable of multicore
20:24  * oldlaptop makes innocent face
20:25 < fifi> ohh pulseaudio is required for deadbeef audio player ;o
20:25 < quinq> modern software
20:26 < fifi> dang :> 
20:32 < brocashelm> i removed pulseaudio and jack entirely
20:32 < brocashelm> i also removed wayland, which effectively killed off whatever kde i still had on (i'm ok with that)
20:33 < fifi> yeah, I don't like kde bloat
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20:33 < brocashelm> openbsd porting trinity desktop would be a hell of a lot better than "experimenting" with that wayland modernist subversion garbage that's effectively been tainting the linux desktop
20:34 < phy1729> Are you working on the port?
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20:52 < fifi> O.o
20:53 -!- dastain [~dastain@2a00:d880:6:262::45a3] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20:53 < quinq> Working on the port, unloading crates from cargo
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21:05 < thrig> unsigned long shoremen
21:06 < avemestr> More like islanders joining a cult.
21:06 < thrig> lord how time flies
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21:13 < sibiria> long john;
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21:58 < GnarledHorn> thrig: "unsigned long shoremen" - brilliant!
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22:02 < quinq> Genius!
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22:11 < thrig> except that job is pretty much automated away
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22:13 < quinq> Yeah, crates are basically transported around by chatgpt
22:14 < quinq> s/around/& teh world/
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23:00 < apotheon> thrig: Isn't that why they're "unsigned" now?
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23:03 < thrig> don't think they ever got a signing bonus
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23:12 < oldlaptop> I hear tell they signed a new union contract
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23:24 < Hooloovoo> I thought crates were transported by rust?
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23:35 < oldlaptop> I don't think the container ship captain will appreciate that
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--- Log closed Tue Jul 11 00:00:57 2023