--- Log opened Fri Jul 21 00:00:07 2023
--- Day changed Fri Jul 21 2023
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00:17 < jjf> join #notmuch
00:18 < thrig> two doors down, on the left
00:19 < jjf> yeah sorry. another window snitched my /
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01:47 < a1fa> o/
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07:48 < orwell> Moin! Anyone an idea how to interpret the output of `cpuid`? I have to find out the microcode used by my cpu. https://clbin.com/issv3
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08:00 < IcePic> orwell: doesn't intel have PDFs with info on what the flags mean?
08:01 < orwell> IcePic, couldn't find anything
08:05 < IcePic> orwell: not anything? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPUID could be a start then. At least you get the microcode size from it
08:05 < IcePic> The references section would be full of useful links I gather
08:05 < quinq> The web gives https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/developer/articles/technical/software-security-guidance/technical-documentation/cpuid-enumeration-and-architectural-msrs.html not sure if that's useful
08:07 < quinq> Erf, I suppose not
08:13 < orwell> CPUID in english is way better than in german. I will have a look.
08:13 < quinq> In those https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/developer/articles/technical/intel-sdm.html?wapkw=intel%2064%20and%20ia-32%20architectures%20software%20developer%20manuals
08:13 < quinq> I think you have a section about those
08:13 < quinq> MSRS
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08:24 < orwell> i wasn't able to find anything microdode related with cpuid at all
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09:20 < mystic> hello, how do I use procmap ? If I run it as root I've "operation not permitted".
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09:22 < IcePic> mystic: it does say this in the manpage:
09:22 < IcePic>      procmap requires the ability to open /dev/kmem which may be restricted
09:22 < IcePic>      based upon the value of the kern.allowkmem sysctl(8).
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09:27 < mystic> IcePic: thanks
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10:06 < soundmodel> anyone have any pointers to how to make the arm64 port available to new phones?
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10:13 < IcePic> soundmodel: phones are a total non-starter
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10:13 < soundmodel> why?
10:13 < soundmodel> I didn't get very far, but I thought that if Linux goes there then why not BSD
10:13 < IcePic> they have embarassingly short lifetimes, so by the time you get hold of one and get pixels on the screen on it, it is no longer available for someone else to buy
10:14 < soundmodel> do you know postmarket OS?
10:14 < soundmodel> my idea was that I am reluctant to buy a new phone in order to have a new OS
10:14 < Onepamopa> Hey guys.... a long PF question, since I don't want to spam 10+ lines I've added it to paste: https://bsd.to/wLnm  If someone can take a look..
10:14 < soundmodel> but ATM I don't understand how would one start developing a BSD kernel for arm64
10:14 < soundmodel> or I mean phones in particular
10:14 < soundmodel> I just thought that if Linux goes there then why not BSD
10:15 < soundmodel> or any compatible OS for that matter
10:15 < soundmodel> I just don't know how to deal with phone BIOSes and stuff
10:15 < IcePic> soundmodel: it makes a difference that Android is linux already
10:15 < soundmodel> but presumably one could copy the Linux kernel that's there
10:16 < soundmodel> well yes obviously a lot of the alt projects are forks of what Google/AOSP officially provides
10:16 < soundmodel> but this is OpenBSD
10:16 < soundmodel> and I thought BSD for phones has the same value as BSD for desktops
10:16 < soundmodel> but I don't know whether such can be attempted at homes and not at factories
10:16 < soundmodel> since I don't know the industrial process to produce such phones
10:17 < soundmodel> whether the BIOS is somehow locked etc.
10:18 < IcePic> I'm sure it is possible for many people to gather around one single phone model, do tons of work and produce a result that is not crap. But it will take longer than the lifetime of this one model, and it will be for nothing
10:18 < soundmodel> "it will be for nothing" is certainly a thing
10:18 < soundmodel> I'm not sure how much benefit would BSD offer over the Linux
10:18 < soundmodel> on amd64 it's more pronounced I think
10:18 < soundmodel> but phones are quite secondary computing devices anyways
10:18 < soundmodel> so maybe one could also work on a portability layer
10:19 < soundmodel> a.k.a. Android Studio for OpenBSD
10:19 < soundmodel> someone was also emulating OpenBSD on Android
10:19 < soundmodel> so maybe that's a sufficient layer
10:20 < IcePic> if all this is leading up to is: "Someone else apart from me who got an idea should do a lot of work" then I think we can stop there.
10:20 < soundmodel> no it doesn't, I am very motivated towards such endeavor
10:20 < soundmodel> but I don't know whether it's technically feasible
10:20 < soundmodel> that is, is it technically possible to produce such kernel at home
10:21 < soundmodel> also since OpenBSD and Linux were supposed to share parts
10:21 < soundmodel> then maybe such port is not as big as a full kernel
10:21 < IcePic> you cant make a port without making a "full kernel"
10:21 < soundmodel> no but I meant that one can learn from how Linux operates there
10:22 < soundmodel> but atm I don't e.g. understand whether I'd need e.g. a specific "build phone"
10:22 < soundmodel> since I thought that installing the kernel will likely break most things
10:22 < soundmodel> until all support has been implemented
10:22 < soundmodel> assuming that one can upload the kernel there
10:23 < soundmodel> and boot to it
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10:23 < soundmodel> I don't even know if phones have some sort of standard prompt
10:23 < soundmodel> like a BIOS prompt
10:24 < IcePic> you have a lot in front of you then
10:24 < soundmodel> yes but I thought someone's more experienced here
10:25 < soundmodel> and such project has value as an anti-corporatist strategy
10:25 < soundmodel> like the alternative Linuxes
10:25 < soundmodel> Android is not really a free OS
10:25 < IcePic> I am more experienced, and while I have never written a port, I know a lot of the hardships involved in porting to other platforms
10:26 < soundmodel> well not necessarily a port
10:26 < soundmodel> but since both are unixes
10:26 < soundmodel> then they should implement quite similarly
10:26 < soundmodel> like perhaps 90% the same
10:26 < IcePic> I'm not really sure from where you get such statements?
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10:26 < soundmodel> well because both are unixes
10:26 < soundmodel> so they have some % of similarity
10:27 < IcePic> that is not a relevant factor here
10:27 < IcePic> they expose the same interface for programs, but says nothing about how they talk to the hw
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10:28 < soundmodel> but if the interface is the same when why wouldn't the implementation also be
10:28 < IcePic> because they are different
10:28 < soundmodel> i.e. if phone runs Linux, then it should run BSD
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10:29 < soundmodel> nevermind
10:29 < IcePic> lets go to the car analogy. An electric car, a diesel and a petrol car will have very different engines, while you are the driver see a steering wheel and pedals. For you, similar. For the factory, very different
10:29 < soundmodel> my key interest was to know whether such is technically feasible to be done at home
10:29 < soundmodel> without some sort of lab equipment
10:30 < IcePic> it has been done, I saw netbsd which ran on some mobile phone many (15+) years ago
10:30 < soundmodel> yes and as long as one can access the assembly of the phone
10:30 < IcePic> so one could ebay for that phone, and get old netbsd on it again
10:30 < soundmodel> then one should be able to implement any OS to it
10:30 < soundmodel> I just don't know whether phones expose such
10:30 < IcePic> will it be useful in 2023? Probably not. Was it useful then? Almost certainly not
10:31 < soundmodel> like is there a way to execute asm code
10:31 < soundmodel> on a phone
10:31 < IcePic> yes, this is what happens when you "root the phone"
10:32 < soundmodel> okay so then the phone only has to be rootable
10:32 < soundmodel> I thought not all are
10:32 < soundmodel> I mean, without the lab equipment
10:32 < soundmodel> IcePic ?
10:33 < soundmodel> I think BSD is much more useful than Linux
10:33 < soundmodel> because it's not a hobbyist project
10:34 < IcePic> the OS is not useful in itself on a phone if it can't paint pixels, if it can't access all the onboard devices, if it can't use the builtin wifi or make calls using the phone chips
10:34 < soundmodel> I know
10:34 < soundmodel> but we're not there yet
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10:37 < soundmodel> I also think some of the alt projects like Lineage OS are just bubble gum fixes
10:37 < soundmodel> they're just mods really
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10:39 < Onepamopa> re
10:40 < soundmodel> possibly, as long as the OS is based on what's at https://source.android.com/docs/core/architecture/kernel it's still controlled by Google
10:41 < soundmodel> or well, what we're looking for is perhaps BOSP
10:45 < soundmodel> and I think people are doing those ports, because it's the easier path
10:45 < soundmodel> because the kernel is guaranteed to work
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10:47 < soundmodel> it also says that there are certain supported platforms https://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/7.3/arm64/INSTALL.arm64
10:47 < tommyrot> nobody is going to write this fantasy openbsd phone for you so better get at it yourself
10:47 < soundmodel> but I presumed that it doesn't mean that they must be limited to those
10:47 < soundmodel> but where are the arm64 branch developers?
10:51 < CosmicDJ> soundmodel: I'm pretty sure they're reading arm@openbsd.org https://www.openbsd.org/mail.html
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12:48 < mg> is there some good rich text editor in ports that's not quite as heavy as a full office suite like libreoffice? something akin to the Pages app in macOS perhaps
12:49 < sibiria> gedit, perhaps
12:49 < eea> abiword also
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12:51 < mg> sibiria, eea: ty, I'll check those out
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13:19 < oldlaptop> mg: editors/ted may be interesting (COMMENT bills it as, literally, a [Rich Text Format] editor :P)
13:20 < oldlaptop> "light" enough that it was packaged in damnsmalllinux for years
13:20 < oldlaptop> (probably still is, in the sense that the same images from 15 years ago are still up for download...)
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13:23 < mg> oldlaptop: hah now we're talking
13:25 < mg> The ideal word processor is ms word 97.. I wish someone just made a 1-1 clone of that
13:25 < oldlaptop> that's more or less kinda-sorta what lowriter tries to be, in spirit
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13:26 < inz> I've just never understood why WYSIWYG text editors have all the wrong buttons prominently on display.
13:26 < inz> And the useful ones are well hidden
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13:27  * oldlaptop thinks of the old days when they sold special keyboard overlays to put all the wordperfect buttons on display
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13:28 < jmcunx> mg: there is also joe-4.6, it is like a wordstar clone
13:29 < jmcunx> (Joe's own editor)
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13:29 < thrig> users were telling me not to upgrade their Word 5 to Word 6, so it's been a long decline for office (or it was always bad)
13:29 < arrowd> Is there a ports-related channel?
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13:31 < phy1729> no, but OpenBSD ports are on topic here
13:33 < oldlaptop> jmcunx: not to be confused with staroffice :P
13:33 < arrowd> Can I find Robert Nagy or Antoine Jacoutot there?
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13:36 < mg> jmcunx: nice, added to the list
13:39 < oldlaptop> arrowd: your best bet is probably ports@ - not many committers waste time on IRC (or waste time in this channel, anyway)
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13:40 < oldlaptop> Unless of course your question does not actually require one of those specific people.
13:40 < arrowd> K, thanks.
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13:48 < Zyxer> Hey. I am wondering why my .Xresources doesn't load at login. I have to xrdb .Xresources otherwise it isn't read 
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13:57 < thrig> man xrdb | perl -00 -nle 'print if m/does not load/'
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15:12 < a1fa> whats new
15:16 < Bradipo> RIP Kevin Mitnik.
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15:20 < byteskeptical> and Hans Selasky
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15:25 < GnarledHorn> I'm sort of confused about running -current vs running snapshots. Is running a snapshot the same as running -current ? It seems to be, but then I'm a bit confused about why the two sets of terminology
15:25 < GnarledHorn> Is it because you could run -current via source or via snapshots?
15:26 < GnarledHorn> I come from 12 years of arch linux so I'm no stranger to the risks of living on the edge :)
15:28 < Bradipo> No, snapshots is not the same as -current
15:29 < Bradipo> Well, I suppose it depends on how you look at it.  Both of them are more "recent" than -stable. :-)
15:30 < byteskeptical> it's the same
15:30 < Bradipo> The following will help: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/index.html http://www.openbsd.org/faq/current.html
15:30 < martian67> its roughly the same but snapshots are built for you
15:30 < byteskeptical> -current just refers to following snapshots as they are released. What frequency you do this with is up to you
15:30 < GnarledHorn> Bradipo: Sure, but only differing in that snapshots are somehow manicured and daily whereas running from source is... from source
15:30 < martian67> sometimes stuff gets added to snapshots for testing before it hits -current
15:30 < Bradipo> Right, -current generally means you're building your own.
15:30 < martian67> but thats pretty rare
15:31 < byteskeptical> martian67: that is true and something to keep in mind
15:31 < GnarledHorn> Those are the links I was looking at, thank you
15:31 < martian67> snapshots are worthwhile because packages get built against them
15:31 < martian67> so you arent constantly building the entire world of packages you want
15:31 < GnarledHorn> byteskeptical: sure, I'm in a ~2x per week cadence 
15:33 < GnarledHorn> The real reason I was even digging into this was pkg_add failure. That failure was because I wasn't doing the "pkg_add -u" step after sysupgrade
15:33 < GnarledHorn> whoops!
15:33 < byteskeptical> GnarledHorn: nice, just important to remeber to try the latest snap when you run into issues before reporting
15:33 < GnarledHorn> byteskeptical: makes sense.
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18:12 < Posterdati> hi
18:13 < Posterdati> please help, does openbsd use clang to compile kernel, sources and ports? Thanks!
18:13 < jcs> on most architectures, yes
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18:15 < Posterdati> but gcc could configured as well?
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18:17 < jcs> gcc is not built or installed on those architectures using clang, but you can install a version from ports/packages
18:17 < jcs> i don't know how successful you'd be compiling a kernel with it on a non-gcc arch
18:18 < jcs> why do you want it?
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21:08 < z3bra> I'm sending syslog messages to a remote host, but the original hostname is not part of the message. Is it expected ?
21:09 < uwharrie> z3bra: depends: https://man.openbsd.org/syslogd#h
21:10 < z3bra> When I check the packet with tcpdump, the format is "<24>Jul 21 23:04:03 APPNAME: message"
21:10 < z3bra> ah nice! Thanks uwharrie 
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21:14 < thrig> who knew the year might be important
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21:16 < z3bra> eh
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23:03 < dev1ls> anthk_: o/
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23:08 < dev1ls> sup 
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23:55 < greg00> hello, I have installed OpenBSD fresh on a new system and noticed that my memory is indicating somewhere just under 14gib, looks like swap also ~14gib. but this pc has 16 gib installed. why might there be a discrepancy?
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23:57 < thrig> the kernel giveth, the kernel taketh
--- Log closed Sat Jul 22 00:00:12 2023