--- Log opened Sun Jul 23 00:00:02 2023
--- Day changed Sun Jul 23 2023
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00:04 < topcat001> thanks for the links!
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02:15 < mantis> dropping in on my microsoft surface go 2 running openbsd w/ gnome, somewhat sluggish but great!
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02:23 < jcs> which processor?
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03:17 < se1> jcs i saw a photo on your website in which it appears you were using the nano text editor. do you have anything to say in your defense?
03:18 < jcs> where?
03:19 < thrig> maybe it was like a fake mustache
03:19 < se1> https://jcs.org/images/2023-06-13-110537448277414515-13e286a6c90be908-1500x1124.jpeg
03:20 < jcs> that is the hostname, it's a thinkpad x1 nano
03:21 < se1> ah ha, my attempt at humor has fallen flat
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04:22 < a1fa> hey some of us prefer nano. no shame there
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07:37 < soundmodel> still really confused about whether BSD for phones would make any sense
07:37 < soundmodel> I've found arguments like that the benefits are slim
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07:41 < soundmodel> but I am still thinking that it should be done even if it's just because of the license
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13:17 < soundmodel> anyone know how much configuration is expected when trying a port on the arm64 variant?
13:18 < soundmodel> I thought different architectures require different compilers
13:18 < CosmicDJ> soundmodel: port as in some 3rd party package or port as in some not yet support ARM CPU/board/etc.
13:19 < soundmodel> no I mean that once openbsd/arm64 runs on some board
13:19 < soundmodel> then getting source code for openbsd/x86
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13:19 < soundmodel> then how much will need to be changed for that to compile for the arm64
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13:20 < soundmodel> I mean getting an application that's for openbsd/x86
13:20 < soundmodel> as discussed here https://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/7.3/arm64/INSTALL.arm64 under "Adding third party software - packages and ports:"
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13:22 < CosmicDJ> soundmodel: depends on the code, but the numbers are quite good, see https://www.openbsd.org/73.html "Many pre-built packages for each architecture: * aarch64: 11561 \n * amd64: 11764"
13:23 < soundmodel> hmm so the work is done then already
13:23 < soundmodel> just that there wasn't the OS for my phone
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13:30 < CosmicDJ> not quite sure why you would bring up your phone... but getting back to the topic, most software is highly optimized for x86/amd64 (thing of SSE/AVX/etc.); not so much on ARM64, see https://indico.cern.ch/event/695984/contributions/2872933/attachments/1590457/2516802/ZSTD_and_ZLIB_Updates_-_January_20186.pdf for example
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13:32 < CosmicDJ> wrong link, read this please https://events19.linuxfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Optimizing-Zlib-on-ARM-The-Power-of-NEON-Adenilson-Cavalcanti-ARM.pdf
13:32 < soundmodel> what do you mean?
13:33 < CosmicDJ> I mean if you know the ins and outs of ARM64 (NEON and stuff) you can still optimize OpenBSD and 3rd party software on ARM64
13:33 < soundmodel> there's no snapdragon 430 here: https://www.openbsd.org/arm64.html
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13:51 < soundmodel> I wonder how much of the physical architecture must be understood
13:51 < soundmodel> in order to implement OpenBSD on a phone
13:51 < soundmodel> or maybe this is for the arm64 mailing list?
13:53 < sibiria> it's not terribly more different than an Arm64 SBC. it's just that nobody has considered it important enough to get going with
13:53 < soundmodel> well assuming that the rooted phone exposes all there is to it
13:54 < soundmodel> but I read about some PinePhone OpenBSD attempt that didn't support the mechanism to prevent overheating
13:54 < soundmodel> which suggested to me that one may need to understand how the hardware works
13:54 < soundmodel> i.e. that is has e.g. such mechanism
13:54 < soundmodel> it*
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14:02 < soundmodel> but I am also finding very little info for how to begin in arm64 dev
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14:04 < soundmodel> like what am I going to use for producing the image
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14:18 < hussein1_> what's the easiest way to get an age of a file in seconds?
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14:20 < thrig> by using a filesystem that supports "birth time" of a file
14:20 < hussein1_> last modified would also be fine
14:21 < thrig> then use that (if the filesystem supports it)
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14:22 < hussein1_> i need a number to use in a script - presumably there's a better way than parsing the outupt of ls?
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14:22 < thrig> stat(1) is less bad
14:22 < sibiria> hussein1_: no
14:22 < sibiria> you'll have to parse dates either way
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14:24 < hussein1_> ok, maybe the choice to use a file to do what i'm doing isn't optimal
14:24 < hussein1_> i have a git hook that git users can call that spawns a long running task. I don't want to run this blocking in the clients terminal, so i want to spawn a task and exit
14:25 < hussein1_> then if the git hook gets called again for that combination of arguments i want to check whether there's a task already running for that and how old it is
14:26 < hussein1_> git hook is the wrong word, git shell command is right I think it's invoked over ssh like ssh my-git-server run-my-custom-action my-args
14:26 < sibiria> hussein1_: stat -t '%s' <file>
14:26 < sibiria> half the job done
14:28 < sibiria> hussein1_: i suppose you can digest the command line invocation to a checksum and just "touch" that as a filename combined with unix epoch
14:28 < sibiria> remove when task exits
14:30 < hussein1_> cool, now i can subtract that from date +%s
14:30 < sibiria> $((a-b))
14:31 < hussein1_> that's pretty much my strategy
14:33 < thrig> files may stick around when the script crashes out
14:34 < sibiria> trap [act sig]
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14:38 < hussein1_> why doesn't man.openbsd.org find it? https://man.openbsd.org/trap
14:39 < sibiria> man sh
14:40 < sibiria> (or ksh etc.)
14:40 < soundmodel> so is arm64 on topic here or not?
14:40 < soundmodel> I don't want to use the mailing list for its strict policy
14:40 < sibiria> if it's openbsd it's on topic
14:41 < soundmodel> I'm very keen on putting OpenBSD on a Motorola G5
14:41 < soundmodel> but I'm starting with ~zero knowledge on embedded systems
14:42 < soundmodel> so I don't know how to set up a development environment
14:42 < soundmodel> even
14:42 < phy1729> soundmodel: It'd be a months to years long project. There will be no guides and you'll have to find docs on the hardware or reverse engineer what other OSes do.
14:42 < soundmodel> yes I know, but I don't like Linux so
14:43 < soundmodel> or Java, or Kotlin
14:43 < sibiria> the pinephone runs on the same SoC as pine64, which openbsd has support for. you'd likely save yourself a lot of time
14:43 < sibiria> a lot of the work already done
14:43 < soundmodel> I see Android NDK and I still think it's meh
14:43 < soundmodel> because I wanted the SDK in C++
14:43 < CosmicDJ> if it works at all, doubt there are any public docs about the GSM/etc. stuff in modern phones, also there will be blobs everywhere
14:44 < soundmodel> yes it's obviously unofficial
14:44 < soundmodel> but I don't think being locked into Google world is useful
14:44 < sibiria> the pinephone runs linux. there are docs and drivers for the whole thing
14:44 < soundmodel> and that's the world we live in
14:44 < sibiria> as for the moto g5... good luck :)
14:44 < soundmodel> or any phone for that matter
14:44 < soundmodel> but it's absurd if they're locked into proprietary OSes
14:45 < CosmicDJ> soundmodel: you will be spamming public frequency when smth goes wrong, hope you know how to talk to the police/feds when that happens
14:45 < soundmodel> well linux is not openbsd so what else can be done
14:46 < soundmodel> and no-one's going to design an OpenBSD phone from scratch either
14:46 < soundmodel> because no-one will buy it
14:46 < soundmodel> because they want Android
14:46 < soundmodel> so it sort of sounds like it's meant to be a FOSS effort
14:47 < CosmicDJ> no they want WhatApps and some other crappy apps, no one cares anymore about the OS
14:47 < soundmodel> well that's out of scope
14:47 < soundmodel> for some time
14:47 < soundmodel> Lineage OS or something is already a power user thing
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14:50 < soundmodel> yes so it sounds like OpenBSD for phones can only be realized as a FOSS project
14:51 < soundmodel> and I just studied Linux's history so doing years of "no reward" is the standard
14:52 < soundmodel> there was a thread in the mailing list where a person suggested that such effort is hardly worth in money
14:52 < soundmodel> because buying new hardware is cheaper than writing software for old
14:52 < soundmodel> but it's a different view
14:53 < soundmodel> I just found that without such endeavor there would never be a true BSD-licensed mobile OS
14:55 < soundmodel> but from a $$$ perspective it's certainly difficult
14:55 < soundmodel> because the average user probably would not pay for OpenBSD
14:55 < soundmodel> I mean for having it installed via a 3rd party
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14:58 < soundmodel> but again without such OS the mobile phone market is non-FOSS
14:58 < soundmodel> by large
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15:00 < tommyrot> you should start a blog, "the philosopher in me"
15:00 < soundmodel> well I could start with writing such OS
15:00 < soundmodel> which I asked at first
15:00 < soundmodel> about how to setup a dev env
15:00 < soundmodel> without considering the "why nots"
15:01 < phy1729> https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq5.html and man release
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15:07 < wakaflaka> oooh, that sounds nice!
15:09 < wakaflaka> soundmodel: what would you write it in?
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15:10 < wakaflaka> soundmodel: i wrote a guide on setting up dev envs, but for webdev: https://gist.github.com/basicfeatures/7d1448aad6fadc0def4ffee443f26dab (it needs some updates though)
15:16 < soundmodel> what you mean what in?
15:16 < soundmodel> the same as the existing arm64 stub
15:17 < soundmodel> but having zero experience with embedded I'm not sure how much of that is arm64 assembly and when does one get to libc
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15:18 < soundmodel> but if they implement Linux kernel on the same hardware
15:18 < soundmodel> then it sounds like OpenBSD is perhaps not much different
15:19 < wakaflaka> like, im clueless but is rust or go an option?
15:19 < soundmodel> I think the arm64 sharesuserland what the x86 shares so only in
15:20 < soundmodel> I think the arm64 shares the userland with x86
15:20 < soundmodel> so only in userland
15:20 < soundmodel> I mean on desktop there was Redox OS
15:20 < soundmodel> but that's not OpenBSD so
15:21 < soundmodel> someone could say thought that putting Redox on mobile would be more forward thinking
15:21 < soundmodel> than messing with OpenBSD and libc
15:21 < wakaflaka> ah yeah, i recall that name
15:21 < soundmodel> though*
15:21 < soundmodel> I mean given the same time
15:21 < soundmodel> then someone would say that implementing an OS in Rust is better use of time
15:22 < soundmodel> and it could work on a mobile platform
15:22 < soundmodel> where the apps have more limited scope anyways
15:22 < phy1729> soundmodel: could you ramble elsewhere?
15:23 < wakaflaka> :/
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15:28 < se1> phy1729: https://files.catbox.moe/p652m9.jpg
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15:29 < soundmodel> but yes I find no mention of Rust and OpenBSD in kernel sense
15:29 < sibiria> if it happens it's not tomorrow
15:32 < wakaflaka> soundmodel: using AI I can literally convert OpenBSD into Rust if you want to see how it'd look like.
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15:41 < quinq> 13
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15:44 < hussein1_> i've used "nohup my_long_task args &" which returns in my shell, but not when it's invoked as a git shell command - any idea why? 
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15:51 < orwell> Is it possible to read the MSR (Machine Specific Register) 0x8B from OpenBSD?
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15:54 < soundmodel> yes so prior to OpenBSD for phones it seems like there's firmware work
15:57 < soundmodel> any ideas whether one needs to implement ACPI on the phone-side somehow
15:57 < soundmodel> because U-Boot certainly needs to go there
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16:13 < hussein1_> is there a simple equivalent to shuf -n 1 on openbsd?
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16:17 < prahou> hussein1_: sort -R | head -n1
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16:26 < wakaflaka> noooooooooooo
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16:37 < orwell> Because I didn't find a tool to read a specific msr register, I tried to code it myself but get a segmentation fault. Anyone an idea what's happening? https://clbin.com/bcgZ8
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17:20 < jfsimon1981> Do you know how i can safely run a command from php, which is a small program i compiled, but i found system() requires sh in the chroot (/var/www/bin)
17:20 < jfsimon1981> If there's another way than copy the sh i'd take it
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17:25 < thrig> maybe PHP has fork(2) and execv(3) hiding somewhere
17:29 < jfsimon> ok thanks
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17:55 < hussein1_> which crontab should i use if i want to run a task between every 10 and 15 minutes randomly?
17:55 < hussein1_> create hourly.local?
17:56 < hussein1_> that's not a legit thing apparently, so edit /var/cron/tabs/root?
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17:57 < thrig> did you read cron(8)
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17:59 < hussein1_> yes - if the implication is that it should be /etc/crontab then i didn't want to create it
18:00 < hussein1_> there are like 50 cron related manpages, all of which say what *not* to do
18:00 < sibiria> man 5 crontab
18:00 < sibiria> also, search for "random"
18:02 < hussein1_> i know how to create the actual entry, i can't work out *where* to create it. man 5 crontab lists /etc/crontab (doesn't exist) and /var/cron/tabs/<user> which you're not supposed to edit by hand
18:02 < sibiria> you edit with "crontab -e"
18:02 < sibiria> will edit/save tab of current user
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18:03 < tommyrot> cron does indeed have quite a few associated man pages
18:05 < hussein1_> got it, thanks
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18:33 < hussein1_> does cron log executions somewhere? seems like it should but I can't find where. i would expect it to go to /var/log/daemon?
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18:35 < grubaroni> clang: error: unsupported option '-fsanitize=address' for target 'amd64-unknown-openbsd7.3' <-- clang on openbsd doesn't support this i guess?
18:35 < thrig> man 8 cron | grep log
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18:42 < captnemo> I don't think OpenBSD supports compiler-rt-sanitizers atm.
18:42 < captnemo> I think there might be one sanitizer openbsd supports, but I forgot what it was called.
18:43 < CosmicDJ> captnemo: man clang-local; ubsan_minimal
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18:44 < captnemo> CosmicDJ: thanks!
18:44 < captnemo> yeah, I couldn't find the chart that compared platform support for sanitizers.
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19:48 < bob_x1> what software I should use as a user of openbsd system to send mail via smtp protocol ?
19:48 < bob_x1> and receive the mail 
19:48 < bob_x1> with pop3 protocol 
19:49 < sibiria> opensmtpd as a mail transfer agent (included in the system), and e-mail client... so many to pick from
19:49 < sibiria> claws is decent
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19:49 < sibiria> i like thunderbird
19:51 < bob_x1> sibiria: I do read mail with mail command
19:52 < sibiria> then you won't be needing a pop3 client
19:52 < bob_x1> and would like to use it for replying but it cannot send mail
19:52 < bob_x1> thunderbird is desktop
19:52 < sibiria> right. you need to configure opensmtpd (in /etc/mail/)
19:52 < sibiria> it's the default MTA of openbsd
19:53 < topcat001> mutt is a nice client
19:53 < bob_x1> but im the user of the machine
19:53 < bob_x1> mutt is readline based
19:53 < bob_x1> I have a machine with borken video driver which do not display readline based software correctly
19:53 < bob_x1> even video hardware I think not driver sorry
19:54 < topcat001> I actually have a vt420 :)
19:54 < bob_x1> I do not unerstand terminal series though
19:54 < xse> aerc is packaged and pretty nice, found it easy to configure
19:55 < topcat001> it's an old school tube terminal over serial; I run mutt inside it
19:55 < bob_x1> ah nice
19:55 < bob_x1> aerc still not found on my 7.1 system
19:55 < bob_x1> pkg_add aerc right ?
19:56 < Lucas6023> m l
19:56 < Lucas6023> whoops, wrong terminal window
19:59 < xse> eeh 7.1 maybe not, was committed May 4, 2022. it's in go tho so if needed it's a single binary easy to install, i keep user-ran go program like senpai irc client in ~/bin
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20:02 < Lucas6023> bob_x1: during the time I used POP3, I used popa3d, available in ports
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20:32 < jfsimon> Ideas why nmap in chroot (/var/www/bin) exits with 6 ? i can't find much documentation about it. It executed in PHP context
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20:33 < jfsimon> i believe if it runned into pledge it would rated be terminated
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20:42 < jfsimon> whoops missing lib
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20:53 < jfsimon> Got it, bunch of libraries in /var/www/usr/lib required and it's working
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21:44 < jfsimon> Ideas why in chroot context nmap won't work: nmap:/usr/lib/libssl.so.53.0: undefined symbol 'X509_free'
21:44 < jfsimon> Got a lot of undef symbols
21:46 < phy1729> ldd /usr/lib/libssl.so.54.0    libssl depends on libcrypto
21:47 < jfsimon> thx
21:50 < jfsimon> i got them both
21:50 < jfsimon> something else might be odd
21:56 < oldlaptop> You would see pledge(2) terminations in dmesg
21:57 < thrig> dmesg might be lacking under a chroot
21:58 < jfsimon> no pledge msg
21:59 < jfsimon> All libs are there though "nmap" works, and "nmap -sn 192.168.1.1" fails with misisng references
22:00 < thrig> ktrace is always fun
22:00 < thrig> * definitions of fun vary
22:09 < oldlaptop> "missing references"?
22:11 < jfsimon> no idea i took the default nmap executable, put in /var/www/bin and all libraries /var/www/usr/lib
22:11 < jfsimon> so it runs until it needs do network stuff
22:12 < jfsimon> i added libraries until the executable stopeed complaining on startup
22:13 < jca> missing ldconfig, maybe?
22:14 < jca> I'm not sure I understand why you're trying to run nmap from a chroot
22:14 < jfsimon> i have a PHP software that needs to do a bit of nmap work
22:14 < oldlaptop> something about "it executed in PHP context" fills me with a nameless dread
22:15 < jfsimon> i meant httpd context
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22:15 < jfsimon> which means run in the chroot
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22:16 < jca> httpd from base doesn't execute stuff
22:17 < jfsimon> the php plugin runs system() in this case which ends up running nmap
22:17 < jca> frightening
22:17 < jfsimon> maybe i took the wrong approach to it
22:18 < captnemo> I have a quick question, can openbsd in theory support this flame graph: https://magic-trace.org/
22:18 < jca> I don't even want to look at the code that builds up the system() string to execute
22:18 < jfsimon> i replaced sh with a c++ program
22:18 < jfsimon> it will handle sanitizing and it runs nmap in turn
22:19 < jfsimon> nothing odd will reach the command
22:19 < jfsimon> (chrooted sh)
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22:45 < jfsimon> after running "doas ldconfig" i think it broke nmap, the standard installed one
22:46 < jfsimon> ld.so: nmap: can't load library 'libpcre.so.3.0'
22:47 < thrig> removing /usr/local/lib from the library path might be bad
22:48 < jfsimon> i may have done this i don't know how
22:48 < jfsimon> would a reboot refresh all this ?
22:50 < thrig> maybe? depends on what all you've fiddled with
22:51 < jfsimon> that's after just run ldconfig
22:51 < jfsimon> didn't change anything else
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23:00 < thrig> so don't do that, and reboot, or maybe run something like ldconfig /usr/lib /usr/local/lib /usr/X11R6/lib to maybe recover
23:01 < jfsimon1981_b> reboot fixed it
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--- Log closed Mon Jul 24 00:00:15 2023