--- Log opened Tue Aug 29 00:00:06 2023
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01:54 < linetrace> Question: I've long exported LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 in my ~/.xsession, but never set LC_ALL because locale(1) advises to only set LC_CTYPE; any benefits/risks to exporting LC_ALL?
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01:59 < thrig> you might have something from ports that does something with some other setting. sort order, maybe
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02:00 < linetrace> thrig: yeah, that's what I gathered from locale(1) too
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03:44 < avemestr> linetrace: I've never experienced trouble caused by setting LC_ALL.
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09:11 < renaud> I tried booting the latest snapshot on oracle cloud and it's quite different from before
09:12 < renaud> no more kernel crash, but  it's blocked at viogpu0 at virtio0
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09:28 < renaud> yay, it booted after disabling viogpu
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09:33 < myappie> what y'all think? https://medium.com/@brucedandbattered/openbsd-vs-docker-and-linux-deploying-ruby-on-rails-in-production-320c90bcb934
09:34 < myappie> had a lot of fun doing it
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09:35 < Intrepid> Hi All, can anyone help me sortan encrypted USB drive that I detached before unmounting?
09:37 < Intrepid> Now whenever I try to mount it (after successfully attaching via bioctl) I get "file system must be mounted read-only; you may need to run fsck"
09:38 < Intrepid> Running fsck /dev/sd2a yields another error, however: "unknown special file or file system"
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09:50 < rjc> Intrepid: dmesg and disklabel output for all the disks would help
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09:56 < Intrepid> I can't sew how I can add a pic of those outputs here (I'm here on a phone based browser - I've currently got no internet access on my Openbsd box)
09:57 < Intrepid> *see
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09:57 < Intrepid> But I can confirm that the USB drive I'm trying to sort this for is sd1 that adds a decrypted sd2
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09:59 < rjc> Intrepid: i didn't ask for a pic - the done thing is to use a pastebin of sorts
10:00 < Intrepid> I've not used pastebin before.. I'll see about setting it up
10:01 < dennis> https://clbin.com is mentioned in topic (might be hard to read on phone)
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10:18 < Intrepid> OK I've set up a pastebin account for uploading a screeny - now wgst was it you wanted ? dmesg|tail and?
10:22 < dennis> Intrepid: 11:50:56 rjc Intrepid: dmesg and disklabel output for all the disks would help
10:22 < dennis> :)
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10:36 < pardis> oh, I thought this seemed familiar
10:36 < pardis> this person has been talking about the same problem of uncleanly unmounting an encrypted filesystem since May
10:36  * pardis doesn't have high hopes
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10:51 < IcePic> it's sort of the choice you make when encrypting things. Same with vpns, you won't get traffic over if "80% of the packet contents is correct" since it will break the checksums and hashes and the crypto obviously. Encrypting your drive is in the same category, if you screw up the media, it goes very quickly from 100% readable to 0% readable, and not like cleartext drives where most data can be extracted 
10:51 < IcePic> even if important sectors get lost
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10:58 < Intrepid> lol I just solved it suddenly by trying fsck on sd2i instead of sd1a or sd2a like I'd been trying before
10:58 < Intrepid> What a shame JCS wasn't here lately, I'm sure we could have sorted it out in 5 mins
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11:02 < CosmicDJ> someone asked the other day why you're not using sd1i...
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11:03 < rjc> CosmicDJ: this is exactly why i asked for output of disklabel sd*
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11:13 < Intrepid> well, as great as it was to use fsck to mark the file system clean and go in and see everything was fine on the USB drive, now I find it unable to unmount!
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11:14 < IcePic> probably a shell with $PWD in the mounted file system
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11:14 < Intrepid> ?
11:14 < sibiria> you, or some other program, is probably present "inside" the mounted filesystem
11:15 < sibiria> step outside (with cd /somewhere/else)
11:15 < IcePic> ..is having a path inside the mounted dir as its current-directory
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11:16 < Intrepid> I jiet did a dmesg|tail to find something I've not seen before: WARNING: R/W mount of /mnt/USB denied. filesystem is not clean - run fsck"
11:16 < IcePic> that is unrelated to what you said about not being allowed to unmount
11:17 < Intrepid> Thanks @sibiria - I already checked that and on doing CD/ tbefore reattempting amount it still gave the same error
11:19 < Intrepid> And now when I run fsck /dev/sd2i it doesn't give me any options and instead shows a newsg st the top: **dev/rsdi (NO WRITE)
11:19 < sibiria> unless you have something important you need to rescue from that device, perhaps it would be a good idea to set it up anew the right way
11:19 < Intrepid> And blow that: "last mounted on /mnt/USB
11:19 < IcePic> Intrepid: why are you trying to fsck if you can't unmount it?
11:21 < Intrepid> Bcos that's what it was suggesting I do in dmesg|tail having been unable to use umount
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11:23 < sibiria> Intrepid: do you still have the instructions i wrote for you some weeks or months back when setting it up the first time?
11:23 < Intrepid> I was considering it sibiria but the fact I was suddenly able to get fsck to work on it and then mount it AND copy new files to it has me thinking its fine
11:23 < sibiria> if not i can pastebin it for you again
11:24 < sibiria> or hm, was it for someone else asking about the same procedure... i cannot recall
11:24 < IcePic> I would run fstat -f /path/to/fs and see which pids are preventing umount
11:24 < IcePic> then either kill those pids or if they are shells, cd somewhere else
11:24 < IcePic> then you will be able to umount
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11:25 < IcePic> the "dmesg told me to" was not related to umounts, but to an attempt to mount it RW
11:26 < Intrepid> Thanks sibiria but I've got this which already covers it I think https://www.openbsdhandbook.com/disk_operations/encryption/#encrypting-external-disks
11:27 < pardis> is this still the same disk you were struggling to mount 3 months ago?
11:27 < sibiria> looks about right, besides insisting on using label 'i' which is not necessary and often a bit confusing
11:30 < Intrepid> Yeh I think its best starting afresh with this one. It only took me a few mins to setup about 3 weeks ago.. I'll try it now while someone helpful is around (not you pardis lol)
11:30 < pardis> I don't usually help time-waster trolls, sorry for the inconvenience
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11:30 < sibiria> let me pastebin the little guide i wrote for you or whoever it was some months ago
11:31 < sibiria> it has a bit of hand-holding explanations
11:32 < Intrepid> Sure.. Good backup
11:34 < sibiria> Intrepid: https://dpaste.org/ws56J/raw
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11:42 < Intrepid> That's a bloody good guide - might be worth making it a web page in its own right!
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11:44 < sibiria> i hope it helps. onwards, FDE man
11:45 < Intrepid> Last time I did the urandom entry I had to suspend it bcos it took far too long. I understand zeroing the drive might be quicker but how much? How long would it take to zero a 32gb USB 2.0 on this decade old laptop which I haven't tweaked to have staff resources etc
11:45 < sibiria> with openbsd filling it with random data instead of just zeroes won't be much different in time because of openbsd's fast random device
11:46 < IcePic> I don't think urandom speeds should be that bad.
11:46 < sibiria> in my example, the zeroing doesn't zero the entire drive. just the start of it to make it appear "clean"
11:46 < sibiria> if it doesn't matter to you, you can use either "dd" invocation. don't forget the "fdisk" part afterwards
11:47 < IcePic> I have a old HP server with a bios from 2007, it does some 140 MB/s of urandom
11:47 < IcePic> newer machines probably get lots better values than that
11:47 < Intrepid> Doesn't the use of rsdxc in the argument from your pastebin mean it will try zeroing the whole drive?
11:48 < sibiria> bs=1m count=5  <- 1 megabyte times 5
11:48 < Intrepid> PR does bs=1m mean its just doing the first mb?
11:48 < sibiria> i.e. it just zaps the first 5 mb of the device
11:49 < sibiria> the other invocation has no count, so it'll just keep going until it reaches the end of the device
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11:49 < Intrepid> Lol I think the last time I invoked this I used bs=32m after reading some misleading site about how it could be sped up
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11:50 < sibiria> there's usually a speed difference between pulling 1m or 4m from the device. after that it kind of diminishes, especially towards a USB flash drive which are generally kinda slow
11:50 < sibiria> openbsd's zero and random devices will output data faster. the flash drive is the bottleneck
11:52 < Intrepid> I'm pretty sure I tried the urandom option with the bs=1m (standard) a while back only to end up needing to cancel it after an hour or so.. Is there a way I can get out of it if on Turing it again I find the same?
11:52 < sibiria> just ctrl+c
11:52 < Intrepid> *on trying
11:53 < Intrepid> Great I'll try it now then
11:54 < sibiria> you may notice i do "bs=4m" in the example overwriting the drive with random data. don't forget that part
11:54 < sibiria> will speed things up a bit
11:54 < sibiria> compared to bs=1m
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11:56 < sibiria> and, again, don't forget the "fdisk -Agy sdX" bit once you're done zapping/randomizing with dd
11:56 < IcePic> sibiria: that would be something for the receiving end, the usb stick, I gather?
11:57 < Intrepid> OK I've just done the zero dd argument and it took all of 1.4 seconds so I'm feeling like I can maybe try the urandom with be=4m now... Shouldn't take much longer right?
11:57 < sibiria> Intrepid: it'll take a lot longer, unless your USB device is like 256mb or something tiny
11:57 < IcePic> urandom doesn't seem overly affected if I change from 32k to 128k to 4m blocksizes, same speed on all
11:58 < Intrepid> Yeah but how much longer would it be if the zeroing only took 1.5 sec?
11:58 < sibiria> Intrepid: how large is your USB device?
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11:58 < Intrepid> If its 10x 1.5 sec then NPs (its 16 or 32gb)
11:59 < sibiria> IcePic: it varies depending on target device of course. for the ones i have there's a pretty large diff between 1m and 2 or 4. i suppose easier to measure real difference by just sending it to /dev/null
11:59 < sibiria> (since openbsd still doesn't "short-circuit" that operation like linux does)
12:00 < sibiria> Intrepid: it's not entirely linear. if you want you can test overwriting just a partial amount by specifying a count. it can give you some heads up
12:00 < sibiria> e.g.   bs=4m count=150    <-  600 mb in total
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12:02 < Intrepid> I think the most important question here is how useful has adding that zeroing to the first 5mb of the drive been for thwarting the attempts of any one that might get a hold of it and try pulling data off it... Bear in mind that I've added a couple gigs of data to it in its previous incarnation as an FDE disk..
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12:04 < IcePic> zeroing the start is so that no part of the OS thinks there is an old partition there due to random previous crap being visuble
12:04 < sibiria> to zap the drive layout, one mb is usually enough
12:04 < Intrepid> If its plenty sufficient for all but the most high level bad actors then I won't risk the urandom
12:04 < sibiria> i just toss a few extra mb on there for good measure, because in the past i've had finicky USB flash drives that somehow refused to "reset" unless i zeroed them out several times in a row and i found that overwriting several mb in one go usually made them behave
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12:05 < sibiria> it's just an anecdotal itch. a single megabyte should always be enough
12:05 < Intrepid> OK so this zeroing the first 5mb coupled with the subsequent fdisk will rule out any possible recovery of whatever I had on there barring the more extreme recovery methods?
12:06 < IcePic> no, it gives you a $5 protection against adversaries
12:06 < IcePic> https://xkcd.com/538/
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12:06 < sibiria> since it only zaps the partition layout and not the *entire* drive, you can still find data old on the rest of the drive until it has been overwritten
12:06 < sibiria> old data*
12:08 < Intrepid> What then about zeroing the whole drive.. If zeroing is so quick compared to urandom then surely 20 mins would cover this 31gb?
12:09 < sibiria> openbsd's random device is very fast. it's faster than your USB flash memory. so in this case it'll take just as long to overwrite no matter if you do zeroes or random
12:10 < Intrepid> But wait, given that the only data that ever went onto the drove was after it had been turned into a cryto volume then would there be anything on there to retrieve anyway?
12:10 < sibiria> in that case, no
12:10 < Intrepid> No as in nothing retrievable?
12:11 < sibiria> nothing can be retrieved unless your passphrase is known
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12:11 < sibiria> the data looks like any other random data. nothing can be gleaned from it
12:11 < Intrepid> OK that's good enough - fdisk man activated
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12:13 < Intrepid> Wait, before I do fdisk -Agy, doesn't the g argument make it a GPT format instead of MBR? I don't need it as a bootable USB so should I just substitute g for I to make it MBR?
12:13 < sibiria> openbsd is GPT capable and you can only use this device inside openbsd
12:13 < sibiria> in this case it will not make any difference
12:14 < sibiria> if you were to set it up as bootable device the mbr vs gpt question could arise
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12:15 < Intrepid> Ahh good to know.. So its a moot point given that I'll only ever be reading it on an OpenBSD system with its special crypto method?
12:15 < sibiria> so far no signs of any other os wiring up support for openbsd's FDE :)
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12:34 < Intrepid> OK that all went well. Toctest it I'm trying to copy something from the mounted FDE USB to my main drive (~/Downloads) but nothings there when I do a DIR listing... How come?
12:34 < Intrepid> *To test it
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12:35 < sibiria> i presume an erroneous path or so
12:36 < sibiria> some USB flash drives are such that they need a while to write down buffered data. can't always unplug them immediately after writing a file
12:37 < sibiria> doing "sync" can sometimes help flush data to the device
12:37 < sibiria> (before ejecting it)
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12:39 < Intrepid> Must be.. Worked this time. Thanks again sibiria
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12:41 < Intrepid> You know in doing all this again I thinkcwhat led tocrhe problem in the first place was that in the two step process where you umount the USB from the file system I wrongly put amount /dev/sd2 instead of using the mounted point on the file system...
12:42 < Intrepid> Ie: umount /dev/sd2 instead of amount /mnt/USB
12:44 < Intrepid> Anyway its late here.. Just glad to have end dog days backup now secured hah night all
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13:29 < a1fa> Ampere Altra Developer Platform
13:29 < a1fa> Regular price $5,091.00 
13:30 < a1fa> chump change 
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13:36 < IcePic> reminds me I should install obsd on the risc-v I bought for chump change
13:37 < GnarledHorn> but can you get it _without) the lights and rave effects?
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14:13 < GnarledHorn> It's hard to find high performance computer parts without getting a light show thrown in for free 
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14:30 < dev1ls> tetra_: ok! :)
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15:53 < PappGaborSandor> +1 those "gamer rgb lights" are just an eyesore. Not to mention "gaming" firmware interfaces. :/
15:54 < thrig> or even the way too bright led ring on the power button
15:55 < thrig> (blue, to disrupt sleep best)
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16:06 < polishdub> I do miss the amber and green leds for disk/power from years ago :( simple.. small.. 
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16:09 < PappGaborSandor> polishdub: and they don't light up the entire room
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16:09 < thrig> or for consumer goods the option for zero light noise from a device, especially when on standby
16:10 < polishdub> YES!
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16:18 < betabube> i've got a new gpu !!
16:18 < betabube> gtx 1650 !
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16:32 < lts> Next up: "Which driver should I use with Nvidia on OpenBSD?"
16:33 < Bradipo> The only one that works, maybe?
16:33 < thrig> le software accel
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17:04 < PappGaborSandor> iirc there isn't a working driver for nvidia
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17:08 < avemestr> myappie: Nice graphics. Happy to see an article arguing for OpenBSD over Docker.
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17:12 < IcePic> avemestr: I guess you are referring to the medium.com post?
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17:18 < avemestr> Yep.
17:20 < avemestr> Of course medium.com is bad and the article might be a bit superficial, but it might get OpenBSD "on the radar" for some devops types.
17:20 < IcePic> agree that the pics are nice. Just a bit "fun" that a post on how to run a decent webserver is hosted on medium, instead of on something one run for itself
17:21 < eea> i always strongly suggest openbsd first
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17:21 < eea> generally have to pass the "why not openbsd?" test with me
17:22 < eea> pf/relayd/opensmtpd/et al... too good for a large number of situations
17:23  * RobbieAB is slowly switching to openbsd
17:24 < eea> also, my intel gpu seems to work without issue on openbsd
17:24 < eea> jus'sayn
17:24 < eea> heh
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17:43 < Bradipo> PappGaborSandor: Sure there is, it "works".  May not be what someone expects though.
17:43 < Bradipo> I have a laptop with NVidia card in it, and X works just fine, I just don't have acceleration or any other fancy features.
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17:45 < avemestr> eea: In my experience, the primary concern of the decision makers are "is this technology popular at the moment so there's an endless supply of cheapish labor to maintain it" rather than "could we reduce the amount of maintenance needed".
17:46 < PappGaborSandor> Bradipo: Ah. I must've misremembered. good to know
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17:47 < avemestr> eea: So I envy your position :-)
17:50 < eea> :)
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17:52 < thrig> stack 'em deep and teach 'em cheap
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20:08 < jdgr> Any noteworthy progress on M1 Mac support?
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20:13 < fro> why don't you check the mailing lists
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21:26 < il> lmao
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--- Log closed Wed Aug 30 00:00:07 2023