--- Log opened Sun Sep 03 00:00:07 2023
--- Day changed Sun Sep 03 2023
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01:57 < se1> my new machine has a ryzen 7 5700x and an rx 6600, it's preddy nice oldfashionedcow 
01:57 < oldfashionedcow> Heh, I'm building myself hopefully an i9-13900k system
01:58 < oldfashionedcow> (and yes i'm using integrated graphics lmao)
01:59 < se1> yeah i was gonna too but had some weird issues with a 5600g and two displays on this motherboard, so i snatched up a GPU i found on the cheap
01:59 < se1> but my desktop experience is todally awezome
01:59 < oldfashionedcow> ah fun
02:00 < oldfashionedcow> I'm most likely going to run gentoo on my desktop like with most of my other boxes, just been playing about with a few *BSD's recently
02:01 < se1> enjoy. I use gentoo/rocky/debian because I am forced to at work but my personal machines all run bsd
02:02 < oldfashionedcow> Ah fun
02:02 < oldfashionedcow> The main thing holding me back from considering (at least net and open) bsd for desktop is lack of wayland support
02:03 < se1> something you want to run demands wayland?
02:04 < oldfashionedcow> Mostly that I've never actually used xorg funnily enough
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02:04 < oldfashionedcow> I'm fairly new in the non macos/windows space, when I jumped over to linux i used gnome on wayland for a bit and after that since then i've just used sway
02:05 < se1> oh, in that case you won't notice a difference then
02:05 < se1> if you had some reason for needing wayland that might be different
02:05 < oldfashionedcow> I've been considering trying i3 on a seperate box
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02:07 < se1> yeah i3 is great, xfce 4.18 is very nice in ports too
02:07 < oldfashionedcow> Ah fun
02:09 < se1> I've got 6 devices running openbsd and only one with a display server so
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02:09 < oldfashionedcow> Oh fun, i'm playing with openbsd as a gateway atm, all my other devices (servers, laptops, desktops) run gentoo
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02:11 < se1> install gentoo!
02:11 < oldfashionedcow> heh
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03:02 < brynet> some good news from p2k23 for kde fans
03:02 < brynet> https://nitter.net/sizeofvoid/status/1697977772126109998
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04:54 < avemestr> brynet: Wow! Nice!
04:54 < avemestr> Not a KDE afficionado myself, but nevertheless nice work that'll make a lot of people happier.
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05:07 < avemestr> oldfashionedcow: People have interesting experiences with Wayland/Sway that sometimes lead them "back" to i3: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/zjsd7t/yet_another_why_i_went_back_from_sway_wayland_to/
05:08  * oldfashionedcow takes a read
05:08 < oldfashionedcow> Heh, "No proper fractional scaling" - fractional scaling is actually why i first tried sway over i3!
05:10 < avemestr> Yep, that's normally touted as a killer feature of Wayland.
05:11 < oldfashionedcow> ya
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14:16 < armin> even though i'm on sway currently, i use 1.0 scaling as i'm in front of a 43" 4k monitor, but i have to admit that fractional scaling works great on it, yes.
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14:26 < oldfashionedcow> armin: wha os?
14:26 < se1> armin: man, I had tried using a 4k monitor at my last gig and didn't like it... maybe that's because I was stuck on a mac. seemed liked half the programs I used couldn't scale the font properly
14:27 < armin> oldfashionedcow: this is actually manjaro unstable running some 6.4 kernel and swayFX (some sway for that adds rounded corners and shadows for panels and whatnot). i have no strong opinion about it.
14:28 < armin> se1: well on a 43" you can basically work without scaling at 100%, that's why i got me one in the first place.
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14:29 < jmcunx> armin: Do you know this is the OpenBSD channel ?  I do not think sway runs on OpenBSD
14:30 < armin> jmcunx: i'm aware this is #openbsd, yes, what's the matter?
14:30 < jmcunx> nothing, just point that out in case you were here by accident
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14:31 < armin> i'm not here by accident, no, i run both openbsd servers and desktops just fine, but that doesn't mean i don't run other operating systems as well.
14:31 < Lucas6023> jmcunx: sway is almost here, if not already working
14:31 < Lucas6023> in -current
14:32 < se1> Lucas6023: nice
14:32 < Lucas6023> not hooked to the build yet tho
14:32 < armin> sway didn't work for me last time i tried on openbsd, but that was definitely not my last try.
14:32 < Lucas6023> but a couple of the devs were posting trial runs in social networks
14:32 < armin> my 2 openbsd desktops run just plain i3 currently.
14:34 < Lucas6023> Wayland is being ported, actually
14:38 < eea> Wayland is coming to OpenBSD?
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14:38 < eea> will there be a funeral for X?
14:38 < eea> heh
14:39 < se1> x forever!
14:39 < Lucas6023> https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/ports/wayland/TODO-Wayland.md
14:39 < tommyrot> devs are normal people too, and want the newest fad
14:40 < se1> devs are normal people, he said
14:40 < armin> se1: i have no strong opinions here - security-wise i can see huge benefits in wayland, but that's about it.
14:40 < eea> everybody is normal in their own way
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14:40 < se1> armin: me neither, except if it is good for security like you say, well that's good
14:42 < oldfashionedcow> I'mv ery intersed in he wayland port myself
14:42 < oldfashionedcow> There are security benifits for sure, but in general wayland feels "smoother" to me, but X and Wayland are subjective things, so i don't see either just "going away"
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14:42 < armin> oldfashionedcow: yup sway feels a bit more performant to me, too.
14:43 < oldfashionedcow> And while not on all x setups/systems the lack of screen tearing is *incredible*
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14:44 < oldfashionedcow> But then again there are the downsides, lack of support from all applications (xwayland is working on that but screensharing and things are weird, drag and drop etc.), and the general complexity needed to build a wayland compositor meaning that unless there is an abstraction above wlroots I doubt there will be as many wayland "wm's" are there are xorg wm's
14:44 < armin> tearing is a pretty terrible thing, though, even with tiling WMs.
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14:45 < armin> i don't know for how many years xfce users were not able to disable tearing with the built-in xfce compositor now. 10 or something?
14:46 < oldfashionedcow> Wayland appears to be "the future", but as for when, who knows
14:47 < oldfashionedcow> For some its the future now (like me), but there are things like global shortcuts its still missing
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14:47 < oldfashionedcow> And of course BSD support to come
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14:52 < armin> i have ALWAYS had the impression that the levels of indirections when solving actual problems on a bsd desktop are simply less, compared to most linux desktops i used. my first desktop bsd was freebsd 4.4 if i recall correctly.
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14:59 < armin> sometimes not everything you try works, but what works, works nicely most of the time.
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15:00 < oldfashionedcow> i'd be intersted to trial some development on a bsd
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15:02 < armin> i could simply have a look if my focusrite scarlett 2i6 is supported by openbsd or freebsd.
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15:02 < armin> probably won't, but let's see.
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15:32 < armin> yup thought so, getting that focusrite to work is a bit adventurous.
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15:36 < armin> oh it works!
15:36 < armin> tada.wav
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15:38 < avemestr> armin: 50% of the time it works every time.
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16:45 < magnahelix> avemestr: "50% of the time it works every time." <- lol. Well said.
16:45 < magnahelix> IT in a nutshell. :P
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17:54 < villehardouin> When moving the OpenBSD EFI file to the boot partition, does the exact location matter? I have rEFInd at /boot/EFI/refind_x64.efi and I want to move the OpenBSD EFI file to /boot/ so that rEFInd can boot OpenBSD
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19:15 < vortexx> villehardouin: by default the OpenBSD installation will place them in EFI/BOOT/BOOTX64.EFI and EFI/BOOT/BOOTIA32.EFI. Most operating systems use those files to boot from (Microsoft doesn't). 
19:16 < villehardouin> vortexx so if I have /dev/sda1 as an EFI partition that I'm using to boot linux already, OpenBSD will place it there?
19:16 < vortexx> there's not /boot in OpenBSD
19:16 < vortexx> yes
19:16 < villehardouin> Okay
19:17 < vortexx> bootx64.efi if you're using grub is usually the grub preloader
19:17 < vortexx> you can copy the OpenBSD bootloaders manually to any location you want with any name you want so long as you tell grub or refind the exact locations of them
19:18 < villehardouin> Okay thank you so much!
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19:27 < vortexx> you're welcome
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19:37 < rpx> Hi. Wonder what's the easiest way to install clang 17 ?
19:44 < villehardouin> vortexx Also, one more question. In the OpenBSD installer it will try to create an EFI partition (think it has the suffix 'i'), should I just ignore that?
19:44 < villehardouin> Because I already have one
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19:45 < villehardouin> vortexx See this: https://old.reddit.com/r/openbsd/comments/rmstbw/using_one_big_root_partition_and_uefi/
19:45 < villehardouin> Specifically the post and the top comment
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19:46 < villehardouin> It says: I delete all partitions and make a giant root partition the installer fails and spits out: "you will not be able to boot"
19:46 < villehardouin> Will I get the same error?
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19:50 < vortexx> villehardouin: never follow guides like that. OpenBSD has multiple partitions for a reason. Just select GPT partitioning and let it do it's thing. It'll detect you have an EFI partition and leave it alone iirc
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19:51 < vortexx> then when the install is done you just mount the EFI partition and copy the BOOTX64.EFI to wherever you want
19:52 < vortexx> villehardouin: we always recommend using the OpenBSD FAQ as well as the installation guide.
19:54 < villehardouin> What's wrong with using one partition?
19:55 < vortexx> one partition goes against the security model of OpenBSD
19:55 < vortexx> the OpenBSD base system is compiled to not run WX
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19:55 < vortexx> only the /usr/local partition binaries are allowed to run WX as that's where the packages go
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19:56 < villehardouin> Okay
19:56 < villehardouin> So don't worry about changing the partitions then
19:56 < vortexx> there's also the nodev setting which prevents users mounting a /dev to another partition than /
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19:57 < vortexx> villehardouin: the defaults are fine for normal usage. You can always reinstall later with custom sizes if you want, it's not hard to do, just boot the bsd.rd instead of bsd at the boot prompt to get back into the installer
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19:59 < vortexx> for dual boot with grub and UEFI I wrote this guide a while ago and it's still valid: https://bsdlaptops.wordpress.com/ 
19:59 < vortexx> Refind is known to work but I don't see the point of adding a third bootloader if grub is already used, unless you're on Apple hw
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20:01 < villehardouin> vortexx I'm on a thinkpad and like refind
20:01 < vortexx> that's fine
20:01 < villehardouin> its easy to add menu entries
20:02 < vortexx> also the "one big partition" thing... it's actually one big slice, and then partitions in the slice via the disklabel. It confuses many new users
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21:13 < oldlaptop> vortexx: (refind is substantially less of a pain than grub, is the point)
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21:16 < villehardouin> oldlaptop shout out to rod smith
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21:38 < pardis> villehardouin: the reason deleting all partitions leaves you with an unbootable system is that the 'i' partition is not a second EFI system partition, it is a reference in the disklabel to your existing EFI system partition
21:38 < pardis> that partition must exist in *both* the disklabel and the GPT in order for installboot to install the bootloader correctly
21:38 < pardis> in general, if you don't understand why a default is there, it is best not to change it until you have learned why it is there
21:38 < villehardouin> so just leave the 'i' partition?
21:39 < pardis> you must leave the 'i' partition if that is your EFI system partition, yes
21:39 < pardis> you should also leave the other partitions if you don't understand OpenBSD partitioning, but that is not critical to boot the system
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21:41 < oldlaptop> If you have existing fdisk (MBR or GPT) partitions, there will be entries for those exact partitions in the autogenerated disklabel
21:42 < vortexx> villehardouin: if this is seeming complicated to you, you'd be best setting this all up in a VM (kvm-qemu for ex in linux)
21:42 < oldlaptop> i.e. that won't be a new partition at all, at least if you didn't tell the installer to erase the disk for you
21:42 < vortexx> then you can learn what boots and what doesn't
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21:42 < pardis> or just accept all the defaults until you understand better
21:43 < vortexx> also if you find OpenBSD's fdisk difficult/obtuse, you can create an OpenBSD partition from Linux using gparted (so with a gui)
21:43 < pardis> the default partitioning is not ideal for every use case, but it will be good enough to learn OpenBSD
21:43 < villehardouin> vortexx how would you install openbsd then?
21:44 < oldlaptop> If you create an fdisk partition with the correct type ahead of time, the OpenBSD installer will find it and offer to use it.
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21:45 < villehardouin> so just the one partition? it won't split it all up?
21:45 < oldlaptop> It will, in exactly the same way it otherwise would.
21:46 < villehardouin> Alright i'll take that shortcut
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21:46 < oldlaptop> OpenBSD puts its own partition table, called a "disklabel", at the beginning of that fdisk partition; that is the source of truth for that disk's partition layout as far as OpenBSD's kernel is concerned.
21:46 < vortexx> villehardouin: using gparted, add the OpenBSD partition, then reboot using the OpenBSD install media, run the installer and it'll find the OpenBSD slice automatically and select GPT partitioning with default layout, and let the install do the rest. Then mount the EFI partition with mount_msdos, cd to the EFI/BOOT, mkdir openbsd, cd openbsd, download with ftp (this client does https) the BOOTX64.EFI to 
21:46 < vortexx> it, then cd out of there and umount the partition, reboot and setup refind
21:48 < villehardouin> cool, i didn't know gparted has an openbsd type
21:48 < oldlaptop> Normally the disklabel will have entries for numerous partitions inside the region covered by that fdisk partition, and also entries (conventionally starting at partition i) for any other fdisk partitions
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21:49 < vortexx> gparted can setup partitions for just about every FS out there
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21:49 < oldlaptop> any reasonably capable MBR or GPT partition editor should know about openbsd's partition type code, along with many others that are even more obscure
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21:50 < pardis> no need to download BOOTX64.EFI with ftp
21:50 < pardis> it'll be in /mnt/usr/mdec
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21:50 < vortexx> true
21:50 < pardis> and the signature of that binary will already be verified, too
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21:52 < villehardouin83> thnx, im familiar with linux but i'm not used to openbsd's partition types
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21:56 < vortexx> .. pardis> no need to download BOOTX64.EFI with ftp                                                                                                                              │ bigfondue
21:56 < vortexx> 23:50:32 <....... pardis> it'll be in /mnt/usr/mdec
21:58 < vortexx> arg too late
21:58  * oldlaptop carefully disconnects vortexx's middle mouse button
21:59 < oldfashionedcow> lmao
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21:59 < oldfashionedcow> s/top/top's/
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22:37 < vortexx> the "too late" was for reposting pardis's comment after this: 23:54:37 ::: villehardouin83 [~villehard@user/villehardouin] has quit [Client Quit] 
22:38 < vortexx> nothing to do with my middle button
22:38 < vortexx> villehardouin: have you managed to install?
22:38 < villehardouin> sorry my internet goes out sometimes. i haven't started yet im copying files over from my previous install
22:38 < villehardouin> have a lot of stuff to transfer
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22:40 < villehardouin> vortexx the reason is asked is so that i could have a plan of attack, as it were
22:40 < villehardouin> will be installing soon
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--- Log closed Mon Sep 04 00:00:14 2023