--- Log opened Sat Sep 09 00:00:21 2023
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00:02 < aaronm04> I was hoping they'd have an active bug tracker where you could search for similar errors, but it seems to be a ghost town: https://sigrok.org/bugzilla/describecomponents.cgi?product=sigrok-firmware-fx2lafw
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00:02 < adig> I asked the #sigrok channel also, no answer....
00:02 < aaronm04> So the other thing I'd try is to attempt reproducing this problem with Linux on macOS
00:02 < aaronm04> or* not on
00:02 < adig> Yeah, I was considering Linux.
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00:04 < aaronm04> As a last resort, you could look in the repo for fx2lafw for email addresses, and reach out to an active committer
00:04 < aaronm04> And stick around both here and in #sigrok for as long as you can :)
00:06 < adig> :))
00:08 < aaronm04> All I can say is that there's either a physical problem with your USB hardware (ports or cable), or, more likely, the computer send something that the other end wasn't expecting
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00:16 < adig> I'm getting panics also when I unplug my dev board sometimes.
00:16 < adig> When I'm unplug it from the USB port.
00:16 < adig> Whole system crashes.
00:17 < thrig> reporting bugs may help (eventually)
00:17 < adig> "eventually" :D
00:20 < aaronm04> Panic as in OpenBSD kernel panic?
00:20 < thrig> the usb stack could use more work
00:22 < aaronm04> I'm kind of a newbie but I think there's a way to get the stacktrace after rebooting from a panic, which of course is better than taking a pic with your phone
00:22 < aaronm04> It would help if you did that and sent it to the appropriate mailing list
00:24 < aaronm04> I can't speak for your case, but devs were very responsive when I had a WiFi issue -- "here, try this patch"
00:24 < adig> Cool!
00:25 < adig> Will have to check the docs or Google for that stacktrace, or just send a pic with my phone. :D
00:26 < thrig> other times you have to yell at them about strptime crashing
00:31 < thrig> (Apple never got back to me about their strptime bug)
00:32 < sibiria> what's the bug with it?
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00:35 < thrig> %s is buggy. try "Apple Bug 15753871 on Jan  6 2014" but last I checked they wanted a phone number or something to be able to view bugs
00:35 < thrig> the comment after that comment is "bueller... bueller... bueller..."
00:35 < sibiria> i'm not sure my old developer account still works
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00:44 < aaronm04> From what I hear, Apple only contacts bug submitters if they need info from them
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01:11 < vortexx> lol, using nginx as a reverse proxy is proving to be a bit of an adventure... I didn't have caching turned on and files over ~10M were failing to download from my nextcloud to an outside connection. Had to add caching, up the limits and turn /home into /var/www/tmp for caching. Seems to have solved the issue
01:12 < vortexx> at least for now till some user or other finds a new issue
01:12 < thrig> maybe coming down from the trees was a bad idea
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07:13 < rnkn> if I want to run a site locally on a different port, e.g. 8080, but serve it on port 80, I need to run relayd right?
07:13 < rnkn> this can't be done with httpd?
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07:21 < IcePic> httpd can listen to 8080 then either relayd of just simply pf port redirect to send it to 8080
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07:31 < rnkn> IcePic: you mean httpd listens on 80 right?
07:32 < z3bra> you could also run httpd on both egress:80 and localhost:8080
07:33 < z3bra> You can have multiple `listen` directives
07:34 < rnkn> z3bra: ah cool, so I only need httpd
07:34 < z3bra> relayd is nice if you want to add some kind of logic in the routing to httpd, like adding cookies or selecting a different port based on a url scheme
07:35 < z3bra> rnkn: from the info you gave, yup 👍
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08:49 < emmanuelux> hi, i used autossh with port forwarding, and when I lost tunnel (cause 5G connection) and I have time to time  "Warning: remote port forwarding failed for listen port 3389", it is as the port was stucked or not closed after ssh restart. do I need a "no state" rule in pf of 3389 port ?
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09:12 < avemestr> emmanuelux: If I understand correctly you're port forwarding (nat-to?) traffic on port 3389 (Windows Remote Desktop). I doubt you'll need some "no state" rule. But if your interface "goes down" from time to time, it might be a good idea to put it in parentheses in pf.conf.
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09:18 < avemestr> emmanuelux: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/pf/nat.html < The second last paragraph in the "Configuring NAT" section.
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12:09 < nature> Is there a reasonable way to connect to a wifi network without entering a root password? I can use the permit nopass clause in doas.conf, but my issue is that I want to let the user connect to an arbitrary network
12:13 < RobbieAB> Is it possible to do it manually instead of updating the hostname.if file?
12:13 < nature> The whole story is that I am trying to write a little utility that lets me scan and select a wifi network to connect to, and I want to avoid running that program with full root priviledges
12:14 < nature> RobbieAB: Yeah you can run something like "ifconfig iwm0 join XXX wpakey XXX"
12:14 < RobbieAB> So you could permit nopass that command in doas?
12:15 < nature> what if XXX becomes YYY?
12:15 < RobbieAB> Doesn't doas support some level of wildcarding?
12:15 < nature> I imagine it would be pretty dangerous ^^'
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12:16 < RobbieAB> I mean, allow "ifconfig iwm0" only?
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12:16 < nature> That's an idea
12:16 < RobbieAB> As that is what it sounds like you are trying to do: Allow the user to control iwm0
12:17 < nature> yep
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12:20 < nature> I actually don't think it's possible to permit nopass on ifconfig iwm0 *
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12:20 < RobbieAB> Hmm... That was what I was just beginning to realise checking the man page. :(
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12:20 < nature> you need to use args and then it's exact match :/
12:20 < RobbieAB> Though I am pretty certain a simple wrapper script could get around that limit. 
12:21 < RobbieAB> ifconfig-iwm0: ifconfig iwm0 $@
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12:27 < xse> don't think i'd bother restricting permissions too much, having the whole thing run as root feels fine to me. Something along the lines of https://gitlab.com/mkzmch/awna
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12:34 < nature> xse, I am writing this in Common Lisp and I don't trust myself fully yet, what if I accidentally "rm -rf /" XD
12:35 < RobbieAB> You have backups? Honestly, reading through the script, it looks like it perfectly fits your stated specs, already written.
12:36 < nature> I mean, I am writting it as an exercise to learn some lisp :)
12:36 < xse> ((aw) you might (be (able)) to (give) (((pledge))) and(/)or ((unveil)) a try))
12:37 < nature> But yeah, the script looks exactly what I am trying to do!
12:38 < RobbieAB> The funny thing is... I am reading the script as I would arbitrary scripts I see at work... With almost the exact same response, though massively toned down from the work standard.
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12:40 < RobbieAB> But grumbling about UUOC and "|grep|awk" is just perfectionism. :D
12:41 < nature> xse: What should I pledge to, I am not sure what syscalls does ifconfig do, but actually with pledge and unveil I wouldn't mind running it as root, it might shield me from some dumb mistakes
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12:44 < nature> does it make sense to consider pledge and unveil as some kind of safety net/training wheels when making programs meant to run as root?
12:45 < xse> nature: actually searching for "pledge" in src/sbin/ifconfig yields nothing
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12:45 < armin> i noticed that ctrl-a in a text input field in graphical applications will move the cursor to the beginning of the line, instead of selecting the whole line, on openbsd. could this be? is this simply a default in openbsd that's not present anywhere else?
12:45 < xse> but unveil is presentin ifconfig.c
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12:50 < nature> xse: Actually my lisp program calls ifconfig, so I wonder if pledging in lisp will actually apply the pledge to the other commands I'll run?
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12:56 < xse> there's promises and execpromises so it seems that depends on how you use pledge (check the "exec" promise description in man 2)
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14:21 < MaddieKalan> I must have confused myself but I thought httpd was able to listen on unix sockets?
14:23 < sibiria> don't think so
14:25 < beastie> MaddieKalan: httpd should listen in the port it is configured to.
14:26 < MaddieKalan> I just thought httpd supported unix sockets/domain sockets.  That would make good sense though, since OpenBSD comes with relayd aswell and you can't use the same port twice, instead of finding a random unused port I could pick a path and I heard thay're much more efficent aswell.
14:26 < beastie> tcp sockets and sctp possibly.  unix for local connections, but you'll probably need to configure it.
14:29 < sibiria> unix sockets are a bit faster. but tcp/udp is fast enough that you won't really be hampered
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14:57 < concrete_houses> when 9p file based network app replace html
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15:21 < adig> Pulseview keeps freezing view  LIBUSB_ERROR_TIMEOUT, any ideas?
15:21 < adig> Doesn't happen on Linux.
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15:31 < vortexx> adig: you probably want to report that to ports@openbsd.org
15:33 < adig> Cool, thanks!
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17:01 < CosmicDJ> https://www.freebsd.org/security/advisories/FreeBSD-SA-23:10.pf.asc "pf incorrectly handles multiple IPv6 fragment headers"  anyone knows of OpenBSD is affected, too?
17:01 < CosmicDJ> s/of/if/
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17:11 < jvl> CosmicDJ: check out https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37437530
17:11 < jvl> CosmicDJ: OpenBSD is not affected according to the author of the article.
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17:26 < vi-user> hello, all
17:27 < vi-user> quick question about the rad(8) program
17:27 < vi-user> what does the on-link option specified in rad.conf(5) mean?
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17:48 < avemestr> CosmicDJ: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-cvs&m=169420758223431&w=2
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17:50 < Foxy_> CosmicDJ: OpenBSD is not affected by this PF vulnerability discovered in FreeBSD code
17:51 < Foxy_> OpenBSD has additional checks for IPv6 fragment headers
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18:42 < emmanuelux_> seems I need ExitOnForwardFailure=yes on autossh, dont sure for now
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19:59 < vi-user> hello, all
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20:17 < adig> Also, regarding pulseview freezing with sr: [00:00.406846] fx2lafw: Failed to submit transfer: LIBUSB_ERROR_TIMEOUT., I'm also getting kernel panics when unpluggin devices.
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20:18 < fro> what about it
20:20 < thrig> sendbug sendabug sendabugbugbug
20:20 < adig> Yeah, let's see when it happens again.
20:21 < adig> Sent a message to ports regarding to pulseview, I believe the kernel panics and the pulseview freezes may be related.
20:29 < vortexx> then you might want to send a bug report to bugs@openbsd.org for the kernel stuff
20:30 < vortexx> https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq1.html#Bugs
20:30 < adig> As soon as I get another one.
20:33 < adig> I wonder if it's a good idea to switch to -current, see if it works there.
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20:57 < vortexx> adip: yes, it'd be best
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21:14 < armin> i
21:14 < thrig> vi is --> thataway
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21:16 < armin> i'm just looking at chromium - i feel absolutely no motivation at all to install it, but i fear i will experience some websites that won't work with firefox. there's this "ungoogled chromium" as well as a normal "chromium". what's the idea behind the latter one? wouldn't one always want the ungoogled version?
21:18 < sibiria> the stuff that doesn't work with firefox, because of using chromium-proprietary crap, are incredibly few
21:18 < sibiria> off the top of my head i can recall one thing: the voice chat function of Slack
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21:19 < sibiria> armin: chromium still has google crud in it. ungoogled-chromium does not. it's a fork, which invariably lags behind its upstream
21:19 < sibiria> sometimes just a few days behind, sometimes weeks, depending on how much time the maintainer has to spare
21:20 < thrig> isn't there some new fancy user-tracking ads thing in chromium?
21:20 < sibiria> yes. lots of it, and more's coming
21:20 < thrig> yay!
21:20 < sibiria> it's a google product. avoid as if it were the plague
21:21 < thrig> I've had more plague than google products, recently
21:21 -!- Neutron7 [~4urinalmi@user/Neutron7] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
21:21 < sibiria> nice. do you collect infectious diseases?
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21:22 < magnahelix> hah. Big G at it again.
21:22 < sibiria> Big G always at it. they never were people's friends. never will be
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21:22 < armin> sibiria: ah, gotcha, thank you. 
21:23 < magnahelix> sibiria: but but but but their motto is (used to be) do no evil! *g*
21:23 < armin> sibiria: i was just a bit surprised there exists a package in openbsd with that cloud stuff.
21:23 < magnahelix> It must be true because it's on the interwebs!
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21:24 < sibiria> i suppose they felt the farcical motto was too much to keep up
21:24 < armin> hehe
21:24 < magnahelix> armin: openbsd maintainers can't account for every last detail unfortunately :/
21:25 < magnahelix> sibiria++
21:25 < armin> magnahelix: oh was not pointing at them in any way, sorry if that seemed like a complaint or something like that.
21:25 < avemestr> sibiria: "Not in the best interest of the shareholders".
21:25 < oldfashionedcow> As far as i can tell, ffs2 is a fairly "primative" filesystem, with a lack of support for journaling for example. Is there any particular reason for this?
21:25 < sibiria> yes. it's very old, and the development team is tiny
21:26 < avemestr> oldfashionedcow: Start telling why you want a filesystem with journaling.
21:26 < phy1729> No one has sent in patches for something better yet
21:26 < magnahelix> armin: I know it wasn't a dig at them. Big G is very sneaky and they wanna harvest every drop of useful info from anyone using their services...
21:26 < thrig> didn't a mailing list just talk about journaling fs
21:26 < fro> ugh this again
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21:26 < oldfashionedcow> avemestr: Well as far as i can tell from my very limited knowledge on file systems, its useful for data hygene
21:27 < magnahelix> oldfashionedcow: if it ain't broken... :P
21:27 < oldfashionedcow> heh
21:27 < oldfashionedcow> Also features in more advanced filesystems (zfs, btrfs) imo are quite useful
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21:27 < oldfashionedcow> Not a complaint/rant, just curious
21:27 < fro> so you have an uninformed opinion
21:27 < fro> cool
21:27 < avemestr> oldfashionedcow: There's this great recent thread about the topic: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=169392301328799&w=2
21:27 < oldfashionedcow> fro: yes i do, hence why i'm askin
21:27 < armin> magnahelix: that's currently even becoming worse even, considering what i read on it news sites over the last weeks, and i'm living on this laptop here just fine without, so i was looking at the package search output and asking myself if i want to install that. but even that ungoogled one doesn't feel "right" to install right now. let's see if i can continue a life without google.
21:27 < oldfashionedcow> avemestr: oh intersting, i'll have a look
21:28 < magnahelix> armin: I hear ya. It's a full time gig avoiding Big G.
21:28 < armin> hehe
21:28 < avemestr> oldfashionedcow: Especially the posts by Nick Holland and Janne Johansson are enlightening.
21:28 < avemestr> *mails
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21:29 < magnahelix> While a journaled file system is not inherently bad, it's a complication.
21:30 < thrig> asyncing feeling...
21:30 < oldfashionedcow> I see the points about backup so far, but i don't think that "disqualifies" a journaling file system; note this isnt a complaint, its more of a "are there any reasons to PURPOSLY avoid it"
21:30 < fro> i don't think they're purposely avoiding it
21:30 < fro> it's not how ffs works
21:31 < oldfashionedcow> oh okay so its more of just a development resources thing
21:31 < oldfashionedcow> Cool, was just curious bout it
21:31 < avemestr> oldfashionedcow: Read all the posts.
21:31 < fro> the only avoidance would be zfs because licensing
21:31 < magnahelix> oldfashionedcow: I'd say it's more of a guiding design philosophy in OpenBSD.
21:31 < fro> has nothing to do with the technical merits of zfs
21:31 < oldfashionedcow> ah would make sense
21:32 < armin> apropos filesystems: is adding "noatime" to the / and /home mount options in fstab good practice on a laptop that has an SSD drive?
21:32 < fro> but also i don't speak for openbsd
21:32 < fro> and nobody else here does either
21:33 < oldfashionedcow> ya
21:34 < magnahelix> Licensing is a big if with OpenBSD in general. They don't like compromises in that field.
21:34 < armin> magnahelix: which i love.
21:34 < magnahelix> ^^^
21:34 < fro> they make compromises all the time
21:34 < fro> it's anybody's guess when/if it'll happen for any one thing
21:35 < magnahelix> :P
21:36 < armin> that whole zfs thing is a bit weird anyways, i've been using that on freebsd, but never on linux, and now my friends tell me that linux is the preferred OS if you want to run zfs and i don't run freebsd on bare metal anymore. :(
21:36 < magnahelix> Sometimes it's unavoidable.
21:36 < oldfashionedcow> heh
21:36 < oldfashionedcow> I use zfs for my server
21:36 < oldfashionedcow> (at least for the data drive, root uses btrfs)
21:36 < magnahelix> armin: that's kind of a bizarre statement that linux is somehow the preferred os for zfs now o.o
21:36 < avemestr> Living on the edge :-)
21:37 < thrig> probably they belong to the linux clan so therefore say
21:37 < magnahelix> I mean it does work but it's still going to be a tacked-on fs.
21:37 < magnahelix> On Linux that is.
21:37 < armin> magnahelix: they say that development is much more active over there, and that most development for zfs happens on linux. i just loved zfs on freebsd because the installer supports installing on full disk encryption with geli.
21:38 < magnahelix> :D
21:38 < oldfashionedcow> thrig: heh, not really part of a clan
21:38 < magnahelix> FreeBSD definitely has zfs integrated nicely.
21:38 < oldfashionedcow> freebsd is very nice with zfs
21:38 < oldfashionedcow> the best linux distro for zfs i'd say is gentoo
21:39 < magnahelix> Compile ALL the things. :D
21:39 < oldfashionedcow> magnahelix: but i can use hardened llvm with flto!
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21:40 < avemestr> On Synology they require btrfs for volumes larger than 200TB. But then people scream "but btrfs RAID has parity calculation errors" and Synology responds: "Trust us, we roll our own RAID". I'm not sure I wanna take that wager.
21:40 < magnahelix> lol
21:40 < magnahelix> That's always a winner.
21:40 < oldfashionedcow> heh
21:40 < magnahelix> Just trust us. We're the experts here!!!
21:40 < armin> the synology things should run some variant of linux or bsd though.
21:40 < avemestr> https://kb.synology.com/en-us/DSM/tutorial/What_was_the_RAID_implementation_for_Btrfs_File_System_on_SynologyNAS
21:40 < armin> i mean you could just install some vanilla OS.
21:41 < oldfashionedcow> Out of curiosity, is there any madman out here running their box entirly from source i guess?
21:41 < oldfashionedcow> (manually compiling the base system and then using ports ig)
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21:42 < armin> oldfashionedcow: i actually did that 10 years ago on freebsd, but that's the only OS where i did that and it was painful.
21:42 < oldfashionedcow> heh
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21:44 < thrig> freebsd took two weeks to `make world` on a i386 33/sx
21:44 < oldfashionedcow> oh wow
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21:44 < oldfashionedcow> i'm about to get my new cpu on monday
21:44 < oldfashionedcow> Then ig i just need ram a case, a cooler and a new drive
21:44 < thrig> on the plus side, that system was only a few bucks at Boeing surplus
21:45 < armin> getting into openbsd's pkg_* was a bit difficult for me so i just wrote me a wrapper to do simple things called "pkg", so i can just "pkg install foo" or "pkg delete foo" or something. also implemented some "pkg search foo" hack which is so dirty that i shouldn't mention it...
21:45 < oldfashionedcow> lmfao
21:45 < oldfashionedcow> out of curiosity, what was so hard bout it?
21:45 < oldfashionedcow> I found it quite simple, was a bit weird when i first tried it but ya i just replaced my freebsd pkg foo with pkg_foo :P
21:46 < armin> oldfashionedcow: decades of muscle memory and unlearning it basically, it was just hard for me to get into the new way of doing things so i wrote me a tiny wrapper.
21:46 < armin> it's super simple. no issues there.
21:46 < oldfashionedcow> ah heh
21:46 < oldfashionedcow> *me out here using windows up until two years ago*
21:47 < armin> oldfashionedcow: it's a huge problem in my job when people silently assume i could deal with a windows desktop because i'm a unix expert. :(
21:48 < armin> i have absolutely no clue how to correctly use that. i feel like i don't actually want to know even.
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21:48 < armin> macOS yea ok i can understand that if i need to, but windows?
21:48 < oldfashionedcow> ah heh i get you
21:49 < oldfashionedcow> armin: I wasnt really much of anything 2 years ago, i just watched youtube and did school work and crap on my laptop
21:49 < oldfashionedcow> that was really it
21:49 < armin> oldfashionedcow: and now you're a happy unix nerd? :D
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21:50 < oldfashionedcow> armin: :D yep, mostly use gentoo on my boxen
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21:51 < leo-unglaub> is there a way to tell dump/restore to keep the original user/group/ctime,atime, ... ?
21:51 < oldfashionedcow> I started off with with fedora, then i tried out arch, didnt really like that, and seteled on gentoo
21:51 < oldfashionedcow> settled*
21:51 < oldfashionedcow> my make.conf for the curious: https://bpa.st/X2AHE
21:52 < armin> questions to ask on a first date when dating gentoo users: can i see your make.conf?
21:52 < thrig> only after dinner and a mpv
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21:53 < oldfashionedcow> heh
21:53 < armin> oldfashionedcow: the systemd use flag would trigger a nope-swipe on my gentoo-tinder, i admit it. :)
21:53 < oldfashionedcow> lmao
21:53 < oldfashionedcow> I'm temped to try out openrc at some point, but i need to figure out something to do for networking and my whole measured boot thing
21:54 < oldfashionedcow> luckily systemd-boot is not systemd only, but unfortutnatly systemd-networkd and systemd-resolved is
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21:57 < armin> oldfashionedcow: well i'm not here to discuss systemd, i'm just happy that on openbsd i can look at /etc/rc.d and understand my computer.
21:58 < armin> first i was like "WTF is SUBR!?", then i looked at it, and then it was smooth sail. way less than an hour of work learning how things work and you're safe to go.
21:58 < oldfashionedcow> armin: thats actually why i've been considering trying openrc
21:59 < oldfashionedcow> i've really liked the bsd init style
21:59 < armin> oldfashionedcow: hm then you should actually love openrc, yes. and be warned, there's a 2nd openrc that comes from the openstack world.
22:00 < armin> oldfashionedcow: just so you know there will be confusion when searching the internet for it. :)
22:00 < thrig> openrc of a third kind?
22:00 < armin> yea there's openrc the init system and openrc as in rc files for openstack something something.
22:01 < oldfashionedcow> heh
22:01 < oldfashionedcow> The thing that i'm unsure about is mostly networking
22:01 < oldfashionedcow> for my measured boot, clevis seems like it'll replace systemd-cryptenroll
22:01 < oldfashionedcow> now before anyone askes bout init systems having anything to do with networking... i use systemd-networkd :P
22:02 < armin> well networking is a horror if you want to get it right. i realized that when i learned how to connect to a wifi WITHOUT network-manager, just with wpa_supplicant/wpa_passphrase/dhcpcd. THAT was an eye-opener.
22:02 < armin> since then i had definitely at least (!) 30 times where the manual way worked while the automatism reproducably broke.
22:02 < oldfashionedcow> how good is dhcpcd?
22:02 < oldfashionedcow> i truly HATE networkmanager
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22:03 < armin> dhcpcd is nice, yea, if you have problems with dhclient at least give it a go.
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22:03 < oldfashionedcow> y ra
22:03 < oldfashionedcow> yea*
22:04 < adig> Upgraded to a snapshots, sigrok-cli still randomly times out with sr: [00:00.416307] fx2lafw: Failed to submit transfer: LIBUSB_ERROR_TIMEOUT.
22:04 < armin> there's also "connmand" which the artix people still seem to use, that's hard to recommend though, i experienced many little bugs, but it might be worth a try, too.
22:05 < oldfashionedcow> yea
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22:09 < armin> adig: hm, anything other you spot from libusb? ever got a LIBUSB_ERROR_IO or LIBUSB_ERROR_NO_DEVICE, too?
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22:22 < adig> LIBUSB_ERROR_NO_DEVICE maybe...
22:22 < adig> Somebody on #sigrok linked to this https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=164322543406818
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22:36 < adig> But LIBUSB_ERROR_TIMEOUT is consistent.
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23:51 < jason123onirc> would openbsd work with 4gb of storage? 
23:51 < sibiria> yes but it's gonna be tight
23:52 < sibiria> 2gb is the absolute minimum required for a normal setup on amd64
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23:52 < sibiria> with no room left for anything
23:53 < phy1729> details at https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Partitioning (which claims 512MB, but that's terribly tiny and probably means manually avoiding the link kit)
23:54 < sibiria> just /usr alone is 1.7 gb
23:54 < phy1729> /usr/share/relink is 666M here
23:55 < thrig> probably no firefox
23:55 < sibiria> with normal setup i include comp
23:59 < tommyrot> i recently installed 7.3 with all sets on 4gb flash storage, don't ask why
23:59 < tommyrot> i don't believe you can get away with 2gb realistically tbh
--- Log closed Sun Sep 10 00:00:12 2023