--- Log opened Thu Sep 21 00:00:01 2023
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01:07 < ssm_> Is there any standard way to do Maildir compression?
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01:41 < coreystephanphd> yj2: RE: LibreOffice stuttering, hardware. Just replied to your Q by PM. Pardon the delay; I do not check IRC as often as I should.
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08:41 < zelest> What's the idea behind unwind placing it UNIX-domain socket in /dev/ ?
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09:05 < renaud> zelest: I never noticed, but I'd like to know too. Maybe because /dev is something mounted very early?
09:05 < zelest> Could be
09:06 < zelest> Yeah, didn't notice this either until now.
09:06 < IcePic> I think /dev has to be writeable, no?
09:06 < IcePic> you can run with / ro, but you would need to mfs the /dev directory
09:07 < zelest> Ah
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09:12 < IcePic> according some "how to run diskless on obsd", dev, tmp, var and var/log needs to be writeable in general
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09:14 < zelest> Most socket-files are usually stored under /var though, which could be the case for unwind too?
09:15 < zelest> DNS might be needed for mounting NFS stuff or so? Thus, needed very early?
09:16 < renaud> the best way to know for sure is to ask florian@
09:16 < zelest> For sure :)
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09:17 < zelest> seems to be the same with /dev/resolvd.lock
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09:20 < renaud> it used to be #defineUNWIND_SOCKET"/var/run/unwind.sock"
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09:23 < renaud>  Move control socket to /dev like slaacd(8) is doing to be able to
09:23 < renaud> start unwind earlier, before /var is mounted.
09:23 < renaud> discussed with deraadt
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09:24 < renaud> https://github.com/openbsd/src/commit/49df38229fa88a490ac86ed4ad8346911f515a8e
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09:25 < zelest> Ah!
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09:28 < renaud> there are quite some like this "find /dev/ -type s"
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09:29 < sibiria> seems like a kludge, in lieu of mounting all non-networked file systems first
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14:13 < aaronm04> Is there a name for the technique where you add two routes for 0.0.0.0/1 and 128.0.0.0/1, both to the same place?
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14:18 < renaud> never heard of that "technique"
14:18 < aaronm04> (instead of a default route)
14:19 < renaud> what are you trying to achieve?
14:21 < phy1729> It's more specific than the default route so wins while still covering everything
14:21 < obcecado> i've seen that being used in openvpn
14:22 < renaud> ah, that's to redirect everything through a tunnel?
14:22 < aaronm04> renaud: I did achieve it, for the reason phy1729 mentioned
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14:22 < obcecado> --redirect-gateway
14:22 < aaronm04> I learned it from looking at routes openvpn sets up actually
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14:23 < obcecado> the manpage explains it
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14:24 < aaronm04> is that an option to openvpn?
14:24 < obcecado> yes
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14:31 < phy1729> If it's for a VPN I'd look at setting up a separate rdomain
14:32 < phy1729> I keep my physical ifs in rdomain 0, wireguard in rdomain X and a user in rtable X via /etc/login.conf.d/username. The traffic can't leak since there are no other ifs in the rdomain.
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15:05 < mason> Hey, just curious, lacking ZFS, I'm looking at RAID1C, but I'm curious how folks like to verify data integrity. Do I want tripwire or is there something else to consider?
15:06 < uwharrie> mason: I use mtree(8) and security(8)
15:06 < sibiria> beware: RAID1 performance goes down linearly with each disk in the array
15:06 < mason> uwharrie: I thought mtree was just names and permissions, but I'm not sure about security(8) so I'll look.
15:06 < mason> sibiria: Yeah, just two for this test case.
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15:07 < uwharrie> mtree has options for saving and comparing checksums as well
15:08 < mason> Mm, bunch of checksum options for mtree(8). Nifty. Thanks.
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15:10 < uwharrie> the other option I considered was archivers/par2cmdline
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15:12 < babouille> "RAID1 performance goes down linearly with each disk in the array" <- what ?
15:12 < uwharrie> but creating my own /etc/mtree/raid.secure file using the command invocation in /usr/libexec/security and letting it get checked nightly seems to suffice
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15:13 < sibiria> babouille: openbsd softraid writes to the disks in serial
15:13 < babouille> ...
15:13 < mason> uwharrie: Thank you.
15:14 < vortexx> mason: you can also add CHECKFILESYSTEMS=1 to /etc/daily.local so it runs fsck on the drives read-only
15:14 < sibiria> same with all RAID levels it suppports (0, 1, 5)
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15:15 < mason> vortexx: Thank you.
15:19 < vortexx> yw
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15:21 < babouille> and...
15:21 < babouille> what's the point of serialized raid0 ?
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15:23 < avemestr> solene did a writeup on "how to check your data integrity" some years ago with various approaches: https://dataswamp.org/~solene/2017-03-17-integrity.html
15:23 < avemestr> babouille: One large volume?
15:24 < mason> avemestr: ty
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16:03 < mason> avemestr: Hrm. With softraid, is there any notion of reading from both sources to verify that they return the same thing? I'm wondering if just pulling from the first disk that returns data might not allow a reliable verification. I see https://serverfault.com/questions/608830/is-there-a-way-to-check-softraid-validity-on-openbsd but it's a decade old at this point.
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16:04 < sibiria> not sure, but you can test it easily by disassembling the array and overwriting a single block in a file on one of the disks, then assembling and seeing what data and result you get back when reading the affected file
16:05 < mason> sibiria: Sure, but that's a little harder to do in-flight and nondisruptively.
16:05 < sibiria> you don't need to do it in-flight to test if it really verifies coherency across the array
16:06 < mason> It all makes me wish OpenBSD had a ZFS equivalent.
16:07 < eea> ZFS in OpenBSD would be a dream come true for me... but until then, i'll just stick to good ol' fashioned hardware raid controllers when applicable
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16:08 < eea> software raid is an exercise in futility, in my experience, especially when data integrity is required
16:10 < yj2> eea: you are scaring me sir, i have software raid configured for everything
16:10 < eea> apologies, just sharing my experience :)
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16:11 < ssm_> my data integrity was pretty bad when using softraid with crypto discipline
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16:12 < ssm_> don't know if it was the crypto or the softraid specifically
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16:18 < yj2> had data corrupted, missing stuff?
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16:22 < il> eea, some people have the polar opposite opinion
16:23 < eea> il, this is why i specified it was "in my experience"
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16:23 < mason> il: I think the historical context is that hardware raid is very limited compared to a CPU, which sways people in favour of software RAID, but the implementation details will matter a lot.
16:25 < il> mason, well, from what I understand, hardware raid is sometimes 'behind the scenes' proprietary software raid, so from that perspective, it sounds unappealing
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16:27 < eea> hardware raid just means all the raid work is moved to the processor on the raid card instead of cpu
16:27 < mason> il: Agreed.
16:27 < mason> I haven't thought about hardware raid in ages, honestly.
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16:29 < il> I have no experience with any RAID, I just have a cursory understanding. If I was building a NAS, I'd attempt software raid with it. I think truenas freenas (whatever it's called now) supports software raid.
16:30 < mason> I think that is based on ZFS.
16:31 < il> Yes
16:32 < avemestr> People might enjoy reading this recent thread on data integrity and some perspectives on ZFS: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=169392301328799&w=2
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16:33 < yj2> i managed giant raid pools in debian for a while, like, 8000+ drives
16:33 < il> yj2, sounds eventful
16:33 < bountyht> Only practical advantage for small deploymens with hardware raid is that it is software agnostic. But on the other hand they are a way of vendor lock-in
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16:35 < avemestr> bountyht: OpenBSD is only bootable on RAID1, so if one wants to run OpenBSD with some different discipline underneath HW RAID can be a solution.
16:36 < avemestr> I ran OpenBSD on a Hetzner server with RAID-0 in HW RAID for a while. Taking the "RAID it not backup" mantra to the extreme :D
16:36 < yj2> il: it suckedf
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16:38 < bountyht> avemestr: I have some NAS here on RAID0, but I ensure I have nothing important on it HAHAHA
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16:48 < il> avemestr, thanks for linking that, TIL about dump(8)
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17:27 < apotheon> What exactly is going on with this message?  https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=169392649930852&w=2
17:27 < apotheon> "if you're on 7.3 or earlier, ditch it"
17:27 < apotheon> So . . . if you're on ANY version, "ditch it"?
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17:29 < apotheon> Is that saying that softdep is deprecated for -current and, presumably, upcoming 7.4?
17:29 < thrig> yes
17:29 < coreystephanphd> mason: et al: Michael Lucas's new volume OpenBSD Filesystems has chapters specifically on Software RAID, data integrity, etc. https://mwl.io/nonfiction/os  Buy DRM Free for $12 from his store directly to help he and Mrs. Lucas pay their mortgage: https://www.tiltedwindmillpress.com/product/omf/ 
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17:30 < apotheon> interesting
17:30 < xse> apotheon: yup https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-cvs&m=168856997929968
17:30 < coreystephanphd> We all know what the new book on OpenBSD Filesystems means. (He is obviously working toward Absolute OpenBSD: 3rd edition.)
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17:34 < apotheon> Thanks for the info.
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17:42 < eea> running into MWL at the local costco is the only thing i miss about living in MI
17:43 < coreystephanphd> eea: ++ He is a delightful character. I had many great run-ins with him at BSDCan 2023.
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17:45 < eea> he was one of the first people to comment on my openbsd t-shirt in the wild
17:45 < eea> i had no idea who he was until he introduced himself
17:45 < eea> and i went full fanboi
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17:55 < yj2> some guy in his 40 or 50s locked on to my openbsd t-shirt a couple months ago, and looked like he really was about to talk to me but refrained for some reason. wonder what he would have said
17:55 < yj2> random parking lot encounter
17:56 < thrig> pretty extroverted, usually they'll either look at your shoes or their shoes
17:57 < yj2> lol
18:00 < coreystephanphd> yj2: "Some guy in his ... 50s." In Calgary, that could have been Theo :)
18:00 < yj2> naw, he wasn't as good looking and no glowing light aura surrounding him
18:00 < eea> oh man, random meeting Theo over an openbsd tshirt... i would not be able to restrain myself
18:01 < yj2> probably some other tech guy going to lunch like i was, in my area there are lots of data centers
18:03 < yj2> that reminds me i should eat lunch
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18:06 < coreystephanphd> "no glowing light aura" -- sometimes a halo, sometimes horns, always Mr. de Raadt
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18:27 < zyxer> I am waiting for Absolute OpenBSD: 3rd edition
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18:31 < pony> is it actually coming?
18:32 < coreystephanphd> zyxer: That will be a terrific book. The time is ripe. 
18:32 < zyxer> Yes, if I am not mistaken the author said he is working on it, however, no hint as to when it would be finished
18:32 < coreystephanphd> pony: Yes. That is why Lucas is writing other OpenBSD books. He is quite open about how he 'works up to' an *Absolute* entry piecemeal with topical books.
18:32 < pony> nice
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18:34 < coreystephanphd> Lots of newcomers to OpenBSD since 2nd ed. Massive QOL and other changes to how the OS actually works. He knows that it will sell well. He studies his markets. He also knows that he has to get each *Absolute* just right. It is a specialized craft.
18:35 < coreystephanphd> Plus, about 1 every 10 years means that this could well be his last, and he rather visibly loves everything about OpenBSD, so I suspect -- no insider knowledge on this, just a hunch, esp. after getting to know him a bit -- that this one will be personal.
18:35 < coreystephanphd> (last = retirement before a hypothetical 4th)
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18:35 < thrig> yeah anything negative and it's not absolute
18:36 < coreystephanphd> thrig: :) He is working on it. It is a long process. I am working on a scholarly monograph right now. Academic and/or technical writing is...tiresome.
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18:37 < echelon> anyone run openbsd in an aws ec2? wondering if there's readily available ami's maintained by the official project
18:37 < phy1729> No for the latter part
18:37 < echelon> ok
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18:38 < echelon> i want to use a resflash image anyway
18:38 < phy1729> I've made images with packer, but only for GCP
18:38 < echelon> ah
18:40 < zyxer> Yea he did say there won't be another Absolute FreeBSD, and there were signs he is gonna stop the Absolute series at least
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18:42 < zyxer> Although I would like to try and read some beginner guide in "zoomer speech", not just non-technical, and for amusement mostly. 
18:42 < zyxer> "In order to yeet a file from your bussin system do 'rm /path/to/file'"
18:43 < zyxer> /path/to/impostor*
18:43 < coreystephanphd> zyxer: FreeBSD is getting too unruly for 1 person to write a whole guide for it, anyway. I wrote the review for the FreeBSD Journal of the 3rd ed. 650+ pages. Dense. Years and years of work. Significantly longer than my dissertation and monograph-in-progress.
18:43 < coreystephanphd> OpenBSD is both simpler overall and more internally consistent. (Not starting something -- just pointing out why it would be easier to write a guide for it as 1 person.)
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18:46 < zyxer> There are pros and cons with all, it is mostly the goal or what one wants to use an OS for that determines which is better. Not necessarily the OSs structure or similar. FreeBSD has a more linux-approach and does other things better than Open. But for my soecific needs and uses OpenBSD is the way.
18:46 < zyxer> 😎
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19:01 < avemestr> coreystephanphd: Too bad he didn't write his book on running your own mail server based on OpenBSD but went with Free :-(
19:09 < zyxer> That is what I am trying to do rn
19:09 < zyxer> or, rn as in current hobby project
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19:11 < thrig> I have my own mail server on openbsd
19:11 < thrig> and a super janky relay over wireguard from the laptop
19:11 < zyxer> Just taking a few days break from the demoralisation caused by getting information that my ISP most likely will refuse to open email port, on top of that microsoft or other ISPs may just outright refuse my mails for no reason than, while not mentioned but heavily implied, try to get ppl to use big tech hosting
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19:19 < zyxer> Oh, I have a weird half unrelated (to OpenBSD) question. Myold iMacG3, I wanted to try NetBSD on it due to OpenBSD reordering libraries and all that takes time at boot, around 2 minutes (timer, so not exagerated), however, the NetBSD (and also FreeBSD) images I burnt either aren't recognised or they just won't work for some reason. The only one working is OpenBSD CD-rom. Now, the difference is
19:19 < zyxer> that I tried FreeBSD and burnt the Free and Net images using Free. Meanwhile the OpenBSD image I wrote to CD on OpenBSD and it works. Is it perhaps some technical difference in burning to CD between Open and Free? 
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19:23 < CosmicDJ> zyxer: get a VPS for self-hosted mail, most mail servers will drop connections from DSL hosts...
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19:44 < sibiria> zyxer: even if they open the port(s) up you're also faced with the problem that few ISPs let users set the reverse DNS for residential connections
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19:48 < zyxer> Yes, but I don't trust VPS, so I will use VPS as middle man e.g. route all mail through it
19:49 < zyxer> I will set DNS to the VPS and use ssh for port forwarding to my actual server from the VPS, and have the VPS hoster set reverse DNS
19:50 < sibiria> if you don't trust the VPS you cannot trust it with relaying your traffic either
19:50 < zyxer> My colleague has experience with that and he is running mostly BSDs. He probs started using BSDs from either before I was born or not long after . I consider myself lucky being able to get general pointers from him 😎
19:51 < zyxer> Why not? 
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19:51 < sibiria> they have your network and your storage all the same
19:53 < sibiria> the best you can do is to manually open up an encrypted partition after boot, to access your private keys etc. - and at this point you may as well use the same solution to host and store your mail 
19:55 < zyxer> The VPS will relay the traffic to my server that is at home
19:55 < zyxer> It shouldn't have any access to my encryption keys 
19:55 < zyxer> or even email storage
19:56 < zyxer> Unless they somehow reverse the ssh and get root access on my home aerver
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19:56 < zyxer> Or is my understanding of how it works not sound?
19:56 < sibiria> they are still the man in the middle
19:57 < zyxer> Yes, but I can make throwaway emails and check if the signature stuff matches, right?
19:57 < zyxer> To check if they intervene and send different pub keys, right?
19:57 < zyxer> Since I have access to the actual server
19:59 < zyxer> Excuse my non-technical terminology. I am 100% self taught and haven't read about how email works enough to remember/learn the proper terminology. 
20:01 -!- user71 [~user71@2001:1530:1010:7370:1e6f:65ff:fe88:557f] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:01 < zyxer> But, if my understanding is correct a man in the middle attack can be checked if you can talk to the server through another channel, since it relies on the middle man being the only way to talk to the server, and thus can change public keys without getting caught. No?
20:02 < sibiria> your VPS will be brokering the network for you. the host has full access to the VPS' network, storage - and vcpu + memory
20:03 < sibiria> if the host really is malicious, that setup can't really stop them
20:04 < zyxer> How so? I don't need to use the VPS to access the server, it is only for email relay.  
20:05 < zyxer> Hmm... Guess I need to read up on man in the middle attacks, either there is a missunderstanding or my curtent knowledge is very flawed
20:06 < zelest> They are literally the man in the middle if it's used for relaying. :)
20:06 < zelest> If you encrypt the mail using PGP or so, so it's end-to-end and it's passing through the relay encrypted, then sure.. but they still see who it's relayed to.
20:07 < zyxer> Yes, but I can check the certs to double check if they tamper anything. The email should be sent encrypted so they shouldn't be able to read, unless they tamper with the public key, which I can check by making a throwaway and compare, no?
20:07 < zelest> Not to mention that more or less any mail server out there is configured to accept self-signed certificates.. since losing mail is apparently more dangerious than accepting fake certificates. <o>
20:08 < zelest> zyxer, They can still read the filesystem of the VPS though?
20:08 < zelest> (and memory)
20:08 -!- h3artbl33d [~h3artbl33@user/h3artbl33d] has joined #openbsd
20:08 -!- memset_ [~memset@gateway/tor-sasl/memset] has joined #openbsd
20:08 < yj2> zyxer: : I recommend checking out NextGenHacker101's video, it is pretty concise and sheds light on the potential for a tracert attack: https://youtu.be/SXmv8quf_xM?si=p4i-AT-bf-9ITfXk
20:08 < aaronm04> if you need end-to-end encryption or even tamper evidence, plain email will never be good enough, no matter how much TLS you use
20:08 < zyxer> The memory should only have public key. The private key is on my home server
20:09 < sibiria> i heard nextgenhacker101 is with the nsa now, stationed at their off-world base on the dark side of the moon
20:09 < zyxer> Yea but I want to make it as good as possible without e2ee
20:09 < zelest> zyxer, ...and when the relay receives the mail, what happens? It's stored in the spool and forwarded to the next server.
20:10 < zyxer> It is stored encrypted, no?
20:10 < zelest> It can be, but that doesn't matter, since the host can read the filesystem and the private key.
20:10 < zyxer> No
20:10 < zyxer> The private key and filesystem storing all is on my home server
20:10 < zelest> No? Then I misunderstand you.
20:11 < zelest> So you do end-to-end encryption then? Or what kind of encryption are we talking about here?
20:11 < aaronm04> if your threat model includes a malicious VPS host, you might as well not use a VPS
20:11 < zelest> ^
20:11 -!- memset [~memset@gateway/tor-sasl/memset] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:11  * zelest hosts his mail at home on his apu2... and use a VPS on vultr as a relay for outgoing mail.
20:12 < yj2> sibiria: heh, yeah, I heard that too. But I can't reveal my sources.
20:12 < zyxer> zelest: I setup ssh port forward to VPS from my home server (not an APU) and use that
20:12 -!- riceandbeans [~zach@user/riceandbeans] has joined #openbsd
20:13  * sibiria hosts on the vps - but all mails, configs, private keys and certs are in an FDE file system just to make things a bit more annoying
20:13 < zyxer> So VPS ahould only have public keys it can tamper with, but I can make throwaway email and compare the public key the throwaway got with what is on my actual server
20:13 < zyxer> The FDE ia my home server
20:14 < zyxer> but yes
20:15 < zyxer> As long as the VPS doesn't tamper with public keys they shouldn't be able to read anything but the header of the email sent, right? and if they tamoer with the pub I can check
20:16 < dennis> zyxer: What are these keys you keep mentioning? Who/what are encrypting these emails?
20:16 -!- unpx [~unpx@151.51.158.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:16 -!- unpx [~unpx@151.51.158.219] has joined #openbsd
20:16 < dennis> Virtually 0% of normail day-to-day email is encrypted
20:17 < zyxer> No, they are sent encrypted but stored unencrypted
20:17 < zyxer> Otherqise I could see all your email traffic
20:17 < zelest> There's plenty of TLS going on at both Google and Microsoft
20:18 < zyxer> Also if unencrypted it would be umpossible to prove origin/authenticity
20:18 -!- h3artbl33d [~h3artbl33@user/h3artbl33d] has quit [Quit: 418]
20:18 < dennis> zyxer: you know there's a difference between transport encryption and actual end-to-end-encryption, right?
20:18 < zyxer> Yes, I want transport encryption to be safe, since my worry is a relay for my emails. 
20:18 < zelest> Who uses email these days anyway? TikTok is where all communication's at these days...
20:18 < dennis> A lot of email is encrypted in transport, between mail-servers, but virtually 0% of email is encrypted using something like PGP
20:19 < zyxer> Yes
20:20 < dennis> So, you're not talking about E2E-encrypted emails, like PGP, right?
20:20 < zyxer> And since I am going to host my own I only need the transport encryption to be safe
20:20 < dennis> Right. But those emails are not encrypted when they reach your relay host.
20:20 < sibiria> dennis: private keys for the TLS cert and DKIM signatures
20:20 < zyxer> Yes they are
20:21 < zyxer> My relay is just ssh port forward
20:21 -!- h3artbl33d [~h3artbl33@user/h3artbl33d] has joined #openbsd
20:21 < zyxer> the relay shouldn't have any email server setup at all
20:21 < zyxer> Maybe I am ysing the word relay incorrectly
20:21 < dennis> you are
20:22 < dennis> this is an important detail :)
20:22 < dennis> a mail relay is a mail server that literally sits in the middle and terminates transport security
20:22 < zyxer> Oh
20:23 < zelest> :)
20:23 < zyxer> I meant traffic relay, but maybe that is same concept anyway
20:23 < zyxer> Now that I got to the office I will make a graph to be crystal clear
20:23 < dennis> (:
20:23 < zelest> zyxer, You work this late? :P
20:24 < zyxer> Night shift, NOC engineer
20:24 < zelest> Ah
20:24 < dennis> glhf!
20:24 < yj2> they have trains at network operation centers?
20:25  * zelest trains yj2 
20:25 < Bradipo> zyxer: If you're worried about relays being able to read email, you need to use PGP or some other peer-to-peer encryption that happens *before* the email is injected into an MTA.
20:27 -!- memset [~memset@gateway/tor-sasl/memset] has joined #openbsd
20:27 < zyxer> Bradipo: It seema I used the word relay incorrectly in this context
20:28 < yj2> zyxer: btw if you're that NOC guy from my last job who would wait till the last hour of his shift and then dump all his tickets on the DC all at once (because you were busy playing Valheim instead of working) i need to have a word with you
20:29 < zyxer> LMAO I definitely am not that guy x)
20:30 < zyxer> I do that except I am busy playing pokemon. ;)
20:31 -!- memset_ [~memset@gateway/tor-sasl/memset] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:31 -!- Windshield [~Windshiel@1.124.110.228] has joined #openbsd
20:31 < Windshield> HELO
20:31 < zelest> EHLO
20:31 -!- Eyesack [~Thunderbi@user/Eyesack] has joined #openbsd
20:32 < zyxer> OEHL
20:32 < zelest> that's not valid SMTP :)
20:32 < Windshield> LEHO HO HO
20:32 < zelest> (nor is EHLO, missing the hostname)
20:33 < Windshield> What is (/var/log/xenodm.log :) (II) [KMS] Kernel modesetting enabled.
20:33 < Windshield> Failed to create /var/empty/.cache/mesa_shader_cache for shader cache (Permission denied)---disabling.
20:33 -!- memset_ [~memset@gateway/tor-sasl/memset] has joined #openbsd
20:33 < Bradipo> zyxer: Possibly. But when you say you're going to "host your own" what does that mean?
20:34 -!- powderhorn [~powderhor@207-153-12-54.static.fttp.usinternet.com] has quit [Quit: Client closed]
20:34 < thrig> many users use /var/empty for a home dir. said users probably should not be writing anything to their home dir
20:34 < Windshield> I am not doing that, it's only xenodm who is asking for it
20:35 < Windshield> Can I just create the directory for it manually?
20:36 -!- memset [~memset@gateway/tor-sasl/memset] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:37 < thrig> putting files into /var/empty is probably a mistake
20:37 < Windshield> It is being aske dfor by xenodm
20:37 -!- memset_ [~memset@gateway/tor-sasl/memset] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:38 -!- memset [~memset@gateway/tor-sasl/memset] has joined #openbsd
20:39 < Windshield> back soon...
20:39 -!- Windshield [~Windshiel@1.124.110.228] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:39 -!- NicknameJohn [~NicknameJ@187-27-128-33.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
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20:46 < vortexx> presumably /var/empty had the wrong permissions
20:46 < zelest> Not really?
20:46 < zyxer> https://zyxer.se/EmailSetup.png
20:46 < yj2> my /var/log/xenodm.log has the same message in it several times. interesting
20:47 < zyxer> Bradipo check my previous message
20:47 < zyxer> the image link
20:47 < zyxer> That is what I meant
20:47 -!- memset [~memset@gateway/tor-sasl/memset] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:52 < zyxer> It is so good that windows inserted ssh onto windows base install, now I made scripts and all for windows users so they can ssh to my server and get into an IRC automatically. Only one line on terminal and they have IRC chat, no need to install anything
20:53 < zyxer> Their .profile forces tmux onto them. Although I guess they can exit weechat and do things in tmux terminal, but none of them have doas or anything ao should be safe, right?
20:53 -!- RSCASTILHO [~RSCASTILH@187.40.124.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:53 < thrig> safe, until it isn't
20:53 < sibiria> safe, except for exceptions
20:54 < ssm_> what can I use instead of valgrind, now that valgrind is gone?
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20:55 < Bradipo> zyxer: So, from your diagram, it looks like you want to have a VPS hosting a mail server that will receive email from the Internet.
20:55 < zyxer> No, it will not host an email server
20:55 < zyxer> It will port forward the traffic over ssh to my server at home, which hosts the email server
20:56 < zyxer> Well I trust the users, it is the windows I don't trust
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20:56 < Bradipo> So the VPS server is really just a dummy server that has an SSH tunnel to your real mail server back in your location?
20:56 < Bradipo> And you will have pf relay the traffic through that tunnel?
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20:57 < Bradipo> So when someone at domain.dom wants to email you, they compose a message, inject it into their MTA.  Their MTA then looks up the MX record for your domain, they find your VPS host, connect to port 25, which then is relayed through the SSH tunnel back to your "living room" server?
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21:01 < zyxer> Bradipo: Exactly
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21:01 < Bradipo> Ok, so when someone sends an email from your "living room" server, where does it go?
21:01 < zyxer> That is the usage of the word "relay" I meant
21:02 < zyxer> Bradipo: To the VPS first so it doesn't get blocked by email recieving server
21:03 < zyxer> But it is made and created in my living room, it is just routed to the VPS just like when you send an email it is routed through ISP equipment
21:04 < Bradipo> Yes, you're really talking about "tunnelling" traffic.
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21:05 < zyxer> I was just unclear about what the relay was I guess. Port 25 is relayed. The VPSs job is just to make sure email service providers don't block my emails for going from user ISP thing, as well as getting the reverse DNS lookup and workaround the closed port 25 on ISP side
21:05 < zyxer> Just for tunneling traffic. 
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21:06 < Bradipo> Mail relays are special email servers that accept emails via SMTP on port 25, queue the message, and then deliver the message "closer" to the destination.
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21:06 < zyxer> Yea, got it. I should have clarified traffic tunneling/port 25 relay. 
21:07 -!- nedko [~nedko@gateway/tor-sasl/nedko] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:07 < sibiria> don't forget port 465. smtps is the safer alternative. starttls bad bad not good
21:07 < Bradipo> Your "living room" server may actually be a relay, and outgoing email traffic from it will be tunneled through the SSH tunnel and pop out in the VPS going to the Internet?
21:08 < sibiria> (with opensmtpd you can of course support both)
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21:08 < zyxer> sibiria: Thanks for info. Yes I plan to do smtps. 
21:09 < zyxer> Bradipo: No, my living room server will be the email server. End destination. 
21:10 < Bradipo> So you won't have any clients connecting to your "living room" server and sending outgoing emails?
21:10 < sibiria> i suppose it matters less since you will run opensmtpd locally and not across the internet, but...
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21:10 < Bradipo> Well, opensmtpd will be exposed to the internet... the VPS will tunnel traffic from port 25 to the opensmtpd in the "living room".
21:11 < zyxer> Bradipo: Oh, I misunderstood you. For starters no, I will use ssh to access the server and email. Later on yes you are correct, but for clients to connect then I don't need to use the VPS 
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21:11 < Bradipo> How will a client connect to your server then?
21:12 < Bradipo> Do they have a VPN direct to the "living room".
21:12 < zyxer> I can custom port it to use stmps on port 7784 for clients to sync their emails, and no one is going to block anyone trying to access that port
21:12 < zyxer> No need, my server has ssh port forwarded. Although not port 22 for security
21:13 < zyxer> So ssh to server and then sync or look at emails. But that is step one, later I will do it properly so I can sync emails using thunderbird/evolution/whatever on port whatever I feel like (that ISPs don't prevent port forward for)
21:14 < zyxer> The only default ports I use are 80 and 443, all other are scrambled, including my IRC server
21:15 < zyxer> Although my IRC server can only be accessed using i2p or ssh tunneling
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21:19 < Bradipo> Right, but if you have clients connecting to port 7784 to send email, your "living room" server is performing the function of "relaying email".
21:20 < Bradipo> Unless they never send to anyone except accounts on the "living room".
21:21 < Bradipo> But if they connect to your "living room" on port 7784, talk SMTP (or SMTPS) and inject a message destined for @gmail.com, that's relaying.
21:23 < zyxer> Yes. That is step 2
21:23 < zyxer> So it will become a relay in the future. That is correct
21:23 -!- xet7 [~xet7@user/xet7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:23 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@mail.amnesi.ac] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:24 < zyxer> And in that case the user has to be responsible, but I just want to make it as secure as possible (from prying eyes) on the server side
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21:27 < Bradipo> Right.
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21:27 < Bradipo> Still, don't be misled into thinking that when your server sends/receives email that it is secure from prying.  The only way to achieve that is end-to-end encryption (like PGP).
21:27 < Bradipo> And that's a rare thing.
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21:30 < zyxer> Yes, I want to do what the server can do. Most email will afterall be sent to big tech servers
21:30 < Bradipo> Yep, privacy gone.
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21:32 < Bradipo> Unless your users are security conscious and only communicate with people who are also using PGP (or some other end-to-end encryption).
21:32 < zyxer> ok I need to change passwords. Fucking microshit.... Accidentally typed a password I use for server into a windows shit (yea for some reason company decided that a few projects need microsoft VMs for us to do our NOC job on, and microsoft sends all keystrokes and logs them)
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21:32 < Bradipo> Email is really a lost cause.
21:32 -!- RSCASTILHO [~RSCASTILH@187.40.124.54] has joined #openbsd
21:32 < Bradipo> Oops, reset password time, at least you didn't type it here in IRC. :-)
21:33 < zyxer> And because email is a lost cause I can actually play a significant role in it, since I probs will be the only one that is dumb enough to try and fight big tech on the email front
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21:33 < zyxer> Yea
21:34 < zyxer> Wellp, time to cry about it
21:34 < zyxer> T-T
21:35 -!- mw1144 [~mjs@67-1-122-238.tcso.qwest.net] has joined #openbsd
21:38 < Bradipo> I don't think you're the only one.  I really would like to see more privacy in email.
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21:39 < Bradipo> But it's an uphill battle because users have to be taught how to use PGP (or something like it) and also learn how to recognize when/how to use it.
21:39 < zyxer> Yea well, one of the few trying. At least, the most important part is getting rid of the practical monopoly. And I see OpenBSD being key player in that aspect. Personal servers need some security and while OpenBSD isn't perfect, it is probs the best for a hobbyist to use as an email server 
21:39 < Bradipo> I cannot even get PGP encrypted email from my bank, for example!
21:40 < Bradipo> Oh no arguments here.  My SMTP server runs on OpenBSD.
21:40 < zyxer> Your bank most likely use office365, any encryption is void since microsoft can spy on all things
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21:41 < Bradipo> Well, honestly, it shouldn't matter what email provider they use.
21:41 < Bradipo> PGP happens *before* they hit the mail provider.
21:42 < Bradipo> If they're using webmail, then yeah, all bets are off.
21:42 < monkeybusiness> zyxer: only if Microsoft has a copy of the private key
21:42 < yj2> I'm an accelerationist, I have a cron job scheduled to regularly  send all of my updated personal information/account credentials/personal diary entries and hygiene regiments directly to microsoft/jeff bezos
21:42 < zyxer> I am gonna look into server side pgp, there are setups in which only if the server records the user input can the server pry on the emails. Although that still require trust it is a step to automatically/enforce pgp encryption without the user needing to actually know about it, and thus 0 risk of middle man (except server host) prying on email
21:42 < Bradipo> But if they are using SMTP to submit the message to Office365, then they _can_ control the privacy by encrypting before giving it to Microsoft.
21:43 < monkeybusiness> Technically, Microsoft can still transmit the private keys over Telemetry, if Windows was used as the host's OS. This is just a theory
21:43 < zyxer> monkeybusiness: Microsoft stores all keystrokes, passwords, encryption keys etc. that pass through windows machines. A researcher encrypted database of viruses to use it for machine löearning. He uploaded to his microsoft cloud and microsoft deleted it for being viruses
21:43 < Bradipo> For PGP to be effective, it has to be under the control of the parties in the communication.  If you centralize it, or automate the process, it becomes less secure.
21:44 < zyxer> So they not only scan everything they also decrypt your encrypted stuff on the go
21:45 < zyxer> Bradipo: Correct, but you need to make it easily accessible to all, even if it is a less secure manner, as well as introduce tech stuff into school. It is really weird that a tech driven, tech central society doesn't teach basic tech in school at all. 
21:45 -!- geekthattweaks [uid433447@user/geekthattweaks] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
21:46 < yj2> I set up an Amazon Security camera pointed at my face so jeff bezos can watch me shave in the morning. I should also send him an email letting him know morning shave is complete.
21:47 < zyxer> Moreover, I think some countries actually have judicial support for having the state offer email service alternative that is not hosted on big tech servers. The right to privacy and having no one pry on your mail can probably be applied to email in some countries, and since we do know the big tech email providers cannot be trusted the state has to make an alternative that guarantees (well, at
21:47 < Bradipo> If you want easily accessible, then ProtonMail is a good starting point.
21:47 < zyxer> least in practice) that there are no prying eyes. 
21:47 < Bradipo> That is, if you trust their security model.
21:47 < zyxer> I don't, I use autistici.org
21:47 < zyxer> But I am starting to doubt them as well. 
21:49 < yj2> haha good one, the state will protect citizen privacy from big tech
21:49 < Bradipo> That's a big no.
21:49 < zyxer> That is decentralising and also the state uses big tech to circumvent laws against surveilance
21:50 < zyxer> Moreover ppl are way more vary of the state than big tech for some reason, and more will look into it and sue the state. The state is by law not allowed to do a lot of things big tech is allowed to do. 
21:50 < zyxer> At the very least they won't take my money to pay for my data and make big tech profit
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21:51 < yj2> you almost made diet coke spray out of my nose (from giggling)
21:51 < Bradipo> Perhaps we should take the discussion to #openbsd-social...
21:51 < zyxer> I did not know that existed. I need to join that
21:51 < Bradipo> We've long dropped actual OpenBSD related topics from this chat. :-)
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22:09 < nature> I don't know if anybody here is still interested in my ipv6 issue, but what happened is that I reached out to openbsd.amsterdam which are the ones hosting my server, Mischa helped a lot, we had some back and forth, until he tried to route another ipv6 block to my server and then everything seems to work so far... I have no idea why changing ipv6 address would change anything, but I wanted to keep the people here that tried to help me
22:09 < nature> updated and shout out to openbsd.amseterdam, I am grateful to all of them :)
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22:15 < markmcb> doing a fresh install, using pkg_add to install xfce. when it gets to the webkitgtk41 dependency, it gets stuck at "extracting 88%" every time. tried pkg_delete -a, reboot, etc. any ideas what might cause this?
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22:17 < uwharrie> impatience?
22:17 < markmcb> lol, i let it sit over an hour, so i don't think it's that
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22:18 < markmcb> top shows nothing going on, so seems it's actually getting block somewhere in the process
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22:18 < markmcb> *blocked
22:19 < uwharrie> maybe watch it with iostat or ktrace it
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22:20 < aaronm04> is pkg_add written in Perl?
22:21 < aaronm04> if so, you might be able to get the underlying curl/tar commands (I am assuming) and test those individually
22:21 < sibiria> yes, the package system is written in perl
22:22 < markmcb> ok, i'll poke around and see what i can figure out. just wanted to make sure it wasn't a known issue. thanks.
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22:34 < vortexx> nature: good to hear your issue got sorted, it did sounds like a provider side issue after reading what you posted
22:35 < vortexx> markmcb: did you check you hadn't run out of disk space?
22:35 < markmcb> fwiw, just tried on another system and it hangs at the same point (first is a framework laptop/amd64, second is rpi3)
22:36 < markmcb> vortexx: yes, ample space remaining
22:36 < nature> Not sure, but so far yes, I'll probably explain if we ever find out why a certain ipv6 block had issues and not another.
22:36 < uwharrie> using a CDN or a fixed mirror?
22:36 < vortexx> yeah try a mirror if you're using a CDN and vice-versa
22:37 < markmcb> yes, cdn.openbsd.org ... will change it and see
22:37 < sibiria> ftp.eu.openbsd.org
22:38 < sibiria> if you're on the european continent. otherwise stay away!11
22:39 < markmcb> that did the trick. used cloudflare.cdn.openbsd.org ... thanks!
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22:40 < uwharrie> CDN + snaps is pretty unreliable
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--- Log closed Fri Sep 22 00:00:01 2023