--- Log opened Wed Oct 11 00:00:29 2023
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00:24 < schillingklaus> shouldn't 7.4 be around the corner?
00:26 < thrig> it's that time of the year, again
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00:28 < polarian> \o/
00:28 < polarian> new song hopefully?
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01:18 < jonadab> I'm pretty sure somebody somewhere has created a version of vim that runs in Emacs.
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01:20 < ssm_> jonadab: vim lets you fork a shell, so you can literally run anything inside vim
01:21 < ssm_> true also for ed, mg, vi
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01:28 < ssm_> oh you meant vim inside emacs
01:29 < ssm_> well, I don't know for sure, but I'd be very surprised if emacs didn't let you fork a shell
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01:51 < mason> jonadab: Do you mean viper-mode or evil?
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03:07 < visl> i underestand it's a rhetorical question but you can run vim in emacs with vterm and probably eat
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03:07 < mason> Yeah.
03:08 < apotheon> Eat?
03:08 < visl> emacs as a terminal or something like that. they both strive to be terminal emulators
03:09 < apotheon> I have vi keybindings turned on in my shell.
03:09 < apotheon> speaking of terminal emulators
03:09 < visl> you also have emacs keybindings turn on in your shell ;) 
03:09 < apotheon> where I mostly use the shell, as opposed to TTY consoles
03:10 < apotheon> Emacs keybindings are the default for most shells.
03:10 < visl> agree to agree
03:10 < apotheon> set -o vi
03:10 < apotheon> mush bettah
03:11 < visl> sure but i'd win at a <strike>thumb</strike> pinky war
03:11 < apotheon> swhat
03:11 < apotheon> I don't think I care.
03:11 < visl> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumb_war
03:11 < apotheon> I'm aware of thumb wars.
03:11 < apotheon> I'm undefeated, actually.
03:12 < apotheon> both hands
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03:12 < apotheon> A couple times, I had two thumb wars at the same time with two different people.
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03:12 < apotheon> I shoulda gone pro.
03:12 < visl> probably from all the leverage from using the thumb to lift your hand up to hit escape 
03:12 < apotheon> nah
03:13 < apotheon> I was great at it before I learned vi.
03:13 < visl> double jointed then?
03:13 < apotheon> Nope, not technically double-jointed, but I inherited weird thumb flexibility from Mom.
03:14 < visl> nice
03:14 < apotheon> I lost some of that after a mishap with a motorcycle, but I also haven't been in a thumb war since then.
03:15 < visl> i'm double jointed so it ends up being a timing thing 
03:26 < rnkn> set -o vi and needing to press escape all the time :/
03:32 < thrig> emacs was chewing my tendons so I moved everything to vi keys
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03:39 < rnkn> thrig: what does your capslock do?
03:40 < apotheon> I mainly win with leverage.
03:41 < apotheon> rnkn: I remap keys so CapsLock becomes Esc.
03:41 < rnkn> mine is control
03:42 < rnkn> left pinky rests upon it
03:45 < thrig> escape, probably, but I don't use it
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06:09 < renaud> Foxy_: I had to put MODPY_PYBUILD=hatch-vcs
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09:39 < tercaL> I'm still holding my dedicated server to install 7.4, pretty excited and curious, do you guys think we'd get it nowadays?
09:43 < CosmicDJ> it's not out until it's announced at announce@openbsd.org
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09:44  * oldlaptop does not understand the question
09:44 < CosmicDJ> my guess he's asking when 7.4 is out
09:44 < renaud> tercaL: it should be available on the 23rd
09:44 < tercaL> Exactly :) :/
09:44 < tercaL> Oh
09:44 < oldlaptop> The release is imminent, and normally is in this stage for a few weeks.
09:45 < tercaL> oldlaptop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfqwmbnWX_o  :) :)
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09:47 < CosmicDJ> https://bsd.network/@solene/111201414470197836 "#OpenBSD 7.4 will certainly be released for the 16th of October :flan_hearts:"
09:48 < renaud> ah, indeed, it's the 16th now
09:48  * oldlaptop wonders if https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/etc/root/root.mail?rev=1.165&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup is talking about this coming curl apocalypse
09:49 < renaud> it was 27, then 23 and now 16 :)
09:49 < oldlaptop> Oh, it's disclosed *today*. Forgot about that. https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2023/10/11/how-i-made-a-heap-overflow-in-curl/
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09:54 < tercaL> Thank you all. Quick question, is there any reason MariaDB is very behind the current versions, in OpenBSD?
09:54 < tercaL> *current stable versions
09:54 < tercaL> The one OpenBSD has is a bit old..
09:55 < tercaL> And it's pretty choosen software, though.
09:56 < oldlaptop> The assumption would be that updating it requires a fair bit of work, and there are only so many hands doing it
09:57 < oldlaptop> There's an update to the current 10.9.x sitting on the list; perhaps that will end up being committed after the release.
09:58 < oldlaptop> (https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=169251180006356&w=2)
10:04 < tercaL> Great! Thank you.
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11:12 < tercaL> I'm arranging startup sequence of my OpenBSD mail server. Got confused, should dovecot start before postfix, or vice-versa?
11:12 < tercaL> I got: pkg_scripts=mysqld redis php80_fpm nginx clamd freshclam rspamd sshguard dovecot postfix
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11:14 < sibiria> tercaL: in this case it doesn't really matter if you're using dovecot for pop3/imap and postfix for smtp
11:14 < sibiria> the common setup is that the link between them is simply the file system (maildir/imap directory)
11:14 < tercaL> Had issues in log files, while a service waiting the other one (socket not found thing - till the daemon is started), and wanted to arrange their start-ups..
11:16 < tercaL> an extremely low-grade VPS here - slow.
11:16 < sibiria> if they configured to interact over network (or socket) then you likely have a speficic order that works best. the one giving the error message should probably come afterwards
11:16 < tercaL> I see..
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11:19 < sibiria> have you considered using opensmtpd instead of postfix? since opensmtpd is in base
11:19 < sibiria> this message was sponsored by the Do It With Base foundation
11:20 < tercaL> sibiria: :) lol.. well, not yet. few trials and fails.. Does it work with Dovecot and Rspamd? Should go for that once again I guess.
11:21 < sibiria> of course
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11:23 < tercaL> and virtual users/domains stored in mysql? I need that for PostfixAdmin. It won't work with OpenSMTPD I guess..
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11:24 < sibiria> no it cannot read anything like that out of mysql. it's all in plain text files. but it's of course possible to export the data from your rdbms to that format
11:24 < tercaL> Is there a web administrator gui for opensmtpd?
11:24 < sibiria> but certainly an extra hoop to jump through
11:24 < sibiria> no, it's just a very barebones and efficient MTA
11:24 < sibiria> not an "e-mail suite"
11:24 < tercaL> Got it.
11:26 < sibiria> it stricly accepts mail and stores it in Maildir/mbox format, and sends mail you submit to it. that's it
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11:26 < sibiria> and it can run these things through filters to interact with e.g. spamassassin and such
11:26 < CosmicDJ> tercaL: smtpd works with dovecot/rspamd, see https://tumfatig.net/2023/self-hosted-email-services-on-openbsd/
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11:35 < tercaL> pretty useful link, thank you both
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12:58 < jonadab> ssm_: Well, yes, there's shell-mode of course, but that isn't what I meant.  I meant something properly running in Emacs and aware of that as its environment and integrating with things like the kill ring.
12:59 < jonadab> And yeah, mason , I'm aware of viper-mode, but while that's a vi clone, it's not vim specifically, as far as I know.  But I wouldn't be surprised if some loon somewhere has bridged the gap.
13:00 < jonadab> Also, nobody uses shell-mode any more, since eshell started shipping with Emacs in, umm, I think the late nineties.
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13:05 < mason> Ah, I actively avoid learning vim-specific interactions because I use nvi enough.
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14:32 < avemestr> oldlaptop: FWIW I read Theo's comment as a reference to the curl stuff. IIRC the porters had been told to keep ports steady for release a few days before the curl issue was announced.
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14:35 < avemestr> oldlaptop: October 1: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=169620259210100&w=2 Then the curl announcement on October 3. Then Theo on October 8 saying "we'll end up waiting forever".
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14:47 < armin> https://www.theregister.com/2023/10/11/vulnerabilities_in_curl_receive_patches/
14:47 < armin> news is already writing about a "week-long tease" :-|
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14:48 < armin> that escalated quickly.
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14:50 < armin> I'm not sure if that was a "week long tease", but I agree it felt like ages.
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14:55 < thrig> openssl did similar once and it was a nothingburger
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15:00 < lts> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf?useskin=vector
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15:02 < armin> thrig: a nothingburger? :)
15:02 < armin> thrig: is that like you buy a cheeseburger and it turns out to have nothing but a way too tiny patty on it? :)
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15:05 < thrig> maybe it's one of those hidden hamburger menus you can never find
15:07 < lts> Meanwhile https://www.phoronix.com/news/GNOME-MR-Drop-X11-Session
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16:07 < orwell> Moin! I want to encrypt my disks with a RAID 1C. How do I fill the disks correctly with random data? Write on both disks seperate random bytes, or write one disk with random data and copy the random data from one disk to the other? Or should I skip filling the disks with random data in this case?
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16:12 < betabug> chose randomly any of these options?
16:13 < orwell> Then the laziness in me would win ;)
16:13 < betabug> honestly, I have no idea
16:15 < lts> If they are flash disks, do not try to fill them with data
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16:15 < lts> Just run the secure erase e.g. via bios
16:15 < orwell> Why?
16:15 < lts> Because flash storage does not work like that
16:16 < lts> You just move the writable area forward when you write more stuff to it
16:16 < lts> Wear leveling protections and so on
16:17 < lts> Plus, running the secure erase takes only seconds
16:17 < orwell> Yeah, that's why you would fill the whole disk with random data. Every single FDE scheme suggests it. e.g.: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html
16:18 < lts> All this said, on OpenBSD raid1 is great and encryption is great, but man raid1c is slow. They do not like to be combined
16:18 < betabug> IIRC the random data thing is so that an attacker wouldn't know how much of actual data is there vs. empty space
16:18 < orwell> I get 300MB/s. That's quite enough for my use case.
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16:19 < lts> Good luck trying to overwrite that flash storage with random data
16:19 < lts> I suppose you can do it if you write data to it so many times that it goes around
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16:20 < thrig> thus decreasing lifetime of device
16:20 < lts> That too
16:21 < lts> Search for "flash translation layer" for more information if interested
16:21 < orwell> lts, thx
16:22 < lts> A corollary from this is that it is not easy to really delete data from a flash storage either, unless you use the secure erase which resets all cells (and you trust that it does that)
16:23 < martian67> thats not typically what secure erase does
16:23 < thrig> secure erase is to hit the drive with a large hammer enough times
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16:34 < Lucas6023> thrig: after running `dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/rsd0c` in a loop for a couple of times
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16:39 < thrig> there is room for flair
16:42 < orwell> Is this a bug? `df` shows the size of the whole disk for sd7b instead the size of the partition. https://paste.dismail.de/?dac5a1e72c02a299#vCHmcV1Ve1cYu71Dv3CpV49vMnVkfokNL7ecxXA6az5
16:44 < thrig> not sure what's in that javascript application
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16:45 < IcePic> I think the docs recommend against using b (or c) for filesystems.
16:48 < IcePic> it should not look like it does, but using part b could possibly have something to do with it. OR, the mount and the disklabel are showing different info
16:49 < IcePic> orwell: did you re-partition it or anything?
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16:50 < orwell> IcePic, yeah I'm trying different setups. But before changing the disklabel I unmounted the partition.
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16:52 < orwell> I changed from b to a but df shows the same
16:52 < orwell> I'll reboot
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16:55 < orwell> Hm, nothing changed. How can i debug if df just shows wrong numbers or if something with disklabel is odd?
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17:36 < orwell> Now something is really strange:
17:36 < orwell> data01# mount /dev/sd7a /var/restic/
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17:36 < orwell> mount_ffs: /dev/sd7a on /var/restic: Invalid argument
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17:43 < orwell> oooooops, forgot `newfs sd7a`. Sorry for the noise!
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18:05 < avemestr> tercaL: MariaDB is more or less on life support now.
18:08 < avemestr> tercaL: The company behind it seems to be going down in flames. The open source parts might linger on. But probably worth considering moving to postgresql at this point in time.
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18:28 < sibiria> monty (widenius) stated that the foundation has good economy and development is progressing
18:28 < sibiria> mariadb foundation
18:30 < avemestr> It's a hot mess right now. Microsoft will be phasing out (by deleting!) MariaDBs in Azure. A few days later: AWS is a new Platinum Sponsor for MariaDB Foundation.
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18:34 < Bradipo> avemestr: Have any references?
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18:35 < sibiria> there was a business-wise disaster some time ago
18:35 < sibiria> monty widenius is trying to fix the situation
18:35 < sibiria> should be able to google it
18:35 < Bradipo> Ok.
18:36 < sibiria> some interim CEO or so has, in monty's own words, "ruined my fucking company"
18:36 < tercaL> avemestr: That was interesting and sad.. And no open-source MySQL package in OpenBSD neither, right?
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18:37 < sibiria> imo don't worry about mariadb's longevity for now. keep using it
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18:38 < sibiria> and no, there's no openbsd port of mysql community edition 
18:41 < tercaL> I don't think MariaDB will ever get destroyed and abandoned.. They have good enough donations.
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18:50 < avemestr> Most likely.
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19:01 < sibiria> today we use mysql at work (because AWS Aurora) but in the past we used mariadb 5.5 for many years in a high-stress high-transaction environment
19:01 < orwell> Should I use a public mirror for a local non-public OpenBSD mirror or a second-level mirror? Where would I get access to such a second-level mirror?
19:01 < sibiria> rock solid performance. never failed us
19:01 < orwell> mirrors-announce seems to be dead: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-mirrors
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19:02 < uwharrie> Pick something close to you / with low latency https://www.openbsd.org/ftp.html
19:04 < orwell> I'm asking because of this line in the FAQ: "use a second-level mirror as upstream - no chains of mirrors"
19:04 < uwharrie> that's for public mirrors
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19:08 < orwell> ok, thx
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19:57 < echelon> can you use unveil to allow IPC communication with a specific process? would you refer to the process name in your unveil parameters?
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19:58 < thrig> what sort of ipc
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19:59 < echelon> just passing of data one-way
19:59 < thrig> how?
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20:02 < echelon> ..using the ipc protocol?
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20:13 < IcePic> echelon: I think there are more than one way to do ipc on bsd, which is why thrig is asking
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20:13 < echelon> oh, sorry
20:13 < IcePic> named pipes, domain sockets, sysV shm and so on
20:14 < echelon> i haven't decided yet
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21:09 < vimflyer> Why the heck does OpenBSD define _POSIX_TIMERS as -1? _POSIX_TIMERS is used for clock_gettime.
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21:16 < kodcode> ×/quit
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21:27 < uwharrie> "POSIX options and option groups we unconditionally do or don't implement...Anything which is defined as other than -1 below **must** have complete headers, types, and function declarations as specified by the POSIX standard; however, if the relevant sysconf() function returns -1, the functions may be stubbed out."
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21:30 < vimflyer> uwharrie: Right, but I'm sure OpenBSD implements clock_gettime. So it they do not "unconditionally do not implement" the timers option.
21:31 < uwharrie> My reading is that even if it's implemented, it's not conformant
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21:35 < vimflyer> There may be corner cases that are non-conformant, but it's a very basic function so it surely is fine. It's problematic to define _POSIX_TIMERS to -1 because C programs need to use this in order to prevent any use of a function, since it may not be defined and would result in a compiler error. This leaves no possibility for working around incompatibilities if they do exist.
21:35 < vimflyer> In order to fix this issue I need to add a special case for OpenBSD that ignores _POSIX_TIMERS.
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21:57 < avemestr> vimflyer: Perhaps worth a mail to tech@ ? 
21:58 < fro> definitely shoudln't go to tech@
21:58 < avemestr> Why not?
21:58 < fro> shouldn't*
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22:00 < vimflyer> Based on the description tech seems appropriate. This issue makes it impossible to write conforming POSIX C programs that use clock_gettime, without using implementation defined macros to detect OpenBSD and work around the issue.
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22:03 < thrig> openbsd isn't really posix conforming (rand() comes to mind)
22:05 < vimflyer> The man page for clock_gettime specifically says it conforms to the latest POSIX standard and, to be clear, clock_gettime is probably one of the most basic and widely supported functions in POSIX.
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22:06 < avemestr> thrig: Though it is stated as a goal: https://www.openbsd.org/goals.html
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22:06 < fro> sounds like y'all got it all figured out then
22:06 < fro> post away
22:07 < lester29> hey, what do openbsd guys think about c++? i'm going to learn programming
22:07 < thrig> three languages standing on one another in a trenchcoat
22:08 < vimflyer> C++ is probably the number one most useful and versatile language. It spans every possible programming style and paradigm in every environment and is actively developed as an International standard. With that said, there is so much included in the language that learning it presents a significant challenge.
22:10 < avemestr> lester29: If you ask a tech librarian for a book on C++ he'll find one 1000 pages long. Then you say "I only want to learn the good parts" and he hands you K&R The C Programming Language.
22:11 < lester29> my question is if c++ is worth learning
22:11 < avemestr> Just kidding. But as vimflyer says, it's a herculesian effort to master.
22:11 < thrig> maybe? are you writing (or maintaining) stuff where C++ is suitable?
22:12 < lester29> c++ seems to me overly complicated when i looked what c++ tried to do
22:12 < lester29> i consider also c as alternative choice
22:13 < avemestr> But what problem are you trying to solve?
22:13 < vimflyer> If you mean to ask whether or not it's economically worthwhile in the current job market, then yes, it's in very high demand and will be for the forseeable future. But I wouldn't necessarily recommend choosing your first language based on that.
22:13 < avemestr> Creating a web page? Programming a CNC machine? Different languages for different purposes.
22:13 < fro> why does learning this need to solve a problem?
22:14 < vimflyer> fro: I think most people get started programming because they want to try to make their computer solve a specific problem for them.
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22:15 < fro> okay
22:15 < avemestr> fro: Because not everybody is as clever as you, so most people learn better if there's some purpose involved and not mere memorisation.
22:15 < fro> who says i'm clever? i just think there are other reasons to learn something
22:16 < avemestr> You're right. Sorry I called you clever.
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22:19 < thrig> clever is the ability to manipulate the doors in a dinosaur-proof facility
22:20 < avemestr> It's a UNIX system. I know this!
22:21 < lester29> isn't c++ overly complicated in your opinion?
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22:23 < vimflyer> lester29: Overly complicated suggests a particular value judgement or perspective. For the people developing C++ for various use cases, they are adding useful features. Many people collaborate to add new features to the language. For your use, and for learning, it is surely unbelievably overcomplicated.
22:23 < vimflyer> C++ is a professional tool people use to solve all kinds of problems.
22:24 < lester29> I'm not sure if I choose Python instead of C++ for the beginning
22:24 < lester29> Python allows me to do stuff what I want to do
22:24 < lester29> Python's also professional tool
22:25 < lester29> I'll learn other languages if I'll need them, not for the sake of learning
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22:26 < vimflyer> If you already know Python lets you do what you want to do then that's all you need to know in my opinion. But you do seem to have a bit of a wrong impression, you can't learn to be a good programmer by just "learning one language" to do what you want. After 2 or 3 languages you get the hang of it.
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22:27 < ox1eef__> The creator of C++ more or less said the exact same thing.
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22:29 < lester29> isn't "bloated" or "overly complicated" subjective terms? I mean saying "something is bloated" etc.
22:29 < thrig> sure?
22:30 < lester29> I use many tools that people can say they're bloated
22:30 < lester29> thrig: do you mean "yes"?
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22:31 < thrig> but you could invent objective metrics, like how many 9 day outages the system has, and maybe have a complexity or bloat number to measure things with
22:32 < lester29> I'm not sure if I'll treat programming languages like tools instead of goals of the learning
22:33 < ox1eef__> Do you want to be a professional programmer ?
22:33 < lester29> I'm into system programming and devops
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22:33 < lester29> The reason of choosing Python is that many tools I use use Python behind scenes
22:34 < ox1eef__> Have a listen, from the creator of C++, who also happens to teach computer science for a living: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvWTnIoQZj4
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22:34 < lester29> do you think it's a good idea to think about programming languages as tools?
22:34 < lester29> not goals of the learning
22:34 < pardis> as opposed to religions? yes
22:35 < lester29> pardis: what do you mean?
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22:37 < lester29> pardis: do you mean "yes"?
22:38 < vimflyer> Lester are you a bot buddy?
22:39 < lester29> why do you ask?
22:42 < lester29> I'm a human with ocd lol
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22:42 < lester29> anyway it doesn't matter, continue your discussion
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22:59 < topcat001> It helps to have some exposure to C (and some C++) even if not actively using them.
22:59 < topcat001> If only to read OpenBSD code :-)
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23:13 < vortexx> not directly OpenBSD related but what do you call those adapters that allow you to send ethernet traffic via the electric wiring of a house to avoid laying cables?
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23:14 < thrig> (and then can you run power-over-ethernet on that?)
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23:17 < onebitboy> vortexx: powerline or plc
23:17 < sibiria> vortexx: usually mains network adapter, or powerline network adapter
23:17 < sibiria> sometimes marketed as "extender"
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23:28 < vortexx> thanks sibiria 
23:28 < vortexx> and onebitboy 
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--- Log closed Thu Oct 12 00:00:31 2023