--- Log opened Sat Oct 21 00:00:33 2023
--- Day changed Sat Oct 21 2023
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01:07 < SOLARIS_s> hmm
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01:20 < SOLARIS_s> anyone testing hammerfs yet?
01:20 < fro> no
01:21 < fro> no one but that person that has that repo
01:21 < SOLARIS_s> that's what i thought 
01:21 < SOLARIS_s> how about that HAProxy?
01:22 < fro> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=169757716404936&w=2
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01:22 < myappie> nope
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01:23  * myappie is writing an AI exploit/virus writer
01:23 < myappie> https://gist.github.com/basicfeatures/0636b9e31508696a0269d0eb5956cb43
01:23 < myappie> linux is gonna be begging us for it
01:24 < SOLARIS_s> those ppl are so far behind 
01:24 < myappie> yup. those bastards have GPU drivers though :/
01:25 < SOLARIS_s> lol
01:25 < myappie> but i just thought about that. one of the perks of using AI to translate their GPU drivers to openbsd, is that you'll probably end up with the tech you need if you wanna manufacture your own GPUs from scratch
01:25 < myappie> like tesla is about to
01:27 < SOLARIS_s> there is a reason why there is locks 
01:27 < myappie> part of me wants to cheer but the other part knows its just a few lines shy of a fully functional "paperclip maximizer"
01:27 < myappie> we're doomed :/
01:27 < myappie> locks what do you mean?
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01:28 < SOLARIS_s> you running -current?
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01:29 < myappie> nah actually not yet
01:30 < myappie> what do these locks do?
01:32 < SOLARIS_s> more protection
01:32 < myappie> amen
01:33 < myappie> indeed we'll keep adding security measures but some guy's just gonna remove them
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01:34 < myappie> https://arxiv.org/abs/2210.03629 -- we're ahead of the crooks for now
01:35 < SOLARIS_s> look at the new installer for raid encryption 
01:36 < vortexx> myappie: OpenBSD tracks linux's DRM so you do get up to date drivers for those that are opensource. It's Nvidia stuff that has no support
01:37 < myappie> vortexx: true that
01:38 < SOLARIS_s> it's ashame how openbsd doesn't get the credit it deserves
01:39 < myappie> only nvidia's got the goods though :/
01:39 < myappie> SOLARIS_s: we're gonna make nvidia available on openbsd. its gonna be an interesting year for openbsd and computer security. horrible year for linux
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01:41 < myappie> very close to a working model now:
01:43 < myappie> https://clbin.com/2g1XH
01:43 < myappie> i take that back. not that close, still a mess
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01:53 < myappie> but if anybody's interested in helping, shoot me a PM. looking for a core team, hoping to make some changes. (no more svn, no more ksh)
01:54 < myappie> hoping www.replicate.com will be the first big name in AI to switch to openbsd
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01:57 < phy1729> svn? also I doubt Theo will care to move off either
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01:59 < magnahelix> svn?! That's way too modern for openbsd.
02:00 < linetrace> back to futzing with a connecting a terminal via USB serial (ukspan(4))
02:01 < linetrace> my /etc/ttys contains: 'ttyU0 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on'
02:01 < linetrace> I can connect with my serial device w/9600 baud, harware flow control, 8 data bits, no parity, 1 stop bit, and local echo
02:02 < vortexx> mh another change in 7.4: scripts run as $user mail the result to $user not root now
02:02 < vortexx> had to reajust my /etc/mail/aliases
02:02 < linetrace> however, every character entered causes the login prompt to be redisplayed :\
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02:03 < linetrace> have been experimenting with custom line in /etc/gettytab, extra options for ttyU0 in /etc/ttys, and different settings in my terminal, but so far haven't been able to change that functionality
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02:09 < oldlaptop> vortexx: I wonder whether NVIDIA support will ever change. At least some older stuff works OOTB with nouveau these days, and supposedly pig manure is indeed falling from the sky now: https://github.com/NVIDIA/open-gpu-kernel-modules
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02:10 < dayid> vortexx: did you get the nginx figured? 
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02:26 < welcome> HELO
02:26 < welcome> Loving 7.4
02:26 < welcome> It's nice
02:26 < welcome> y'know?
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02:28 < SOLARIS_s> myappie base install openbsd is 100
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02:30 < SOLARIS_s> wtf
02:30 < welcome> I get it
02:30 < welcome> I think
02:30 < welcome> ...
02:30 < welcome> base74.tgz ==== 100%
02:31 < SOLARIS_s> how is it openbsd repo doesn't get infected with malware 
02:31 < welcome> we LOVE IT
02:31 < welcome> >_._<
02:31 < welcome> THAT MUCH
02:32 < welcome> as I understand, there are safety measures preventing tampering with the installation images
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02:33 < SOLARIS_s> of course 
02:34 < SOLARIS_s> look how long bcrypt survived
02:34 < oldlaptop> SOLARIS_s: The sets and packages are cryptographically signed by the developers who build them with https://man.openbsd.org/signify
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02:35 < SOLARIS_s> i know
02:35 < oldlaptop> Well, that is (part of) how "openbsd repo doesn't get infected with malware".
02:35 < SOLARIS_s> nods
02:36 < welcome> agreed
02:38 < SOLARIS_s> and clearing /tmp
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02:39 < welcome> well, it depends on what is using /tmp... if it's normal system operation, it should take care of itself adequately
02:39 < oldlaptop> The most realistic threat would presumably be the upstream of some port or other turning evil (or getting compromised somehow), and not being noticed by the outside world at large until too late. OpenBSD's ports system takes precautions like verifying the checksums of distfiles (making sure the upstream source code hasn't changed since the porter last updated the port), and so is not any differently-"vulnerable" in that sense than (say) some random 
02:39 < oldlaptop> Linux or other.
02:39 < vortexx> dayid: no I haven't :/ if anyone has suggestions I'm listening
02:40 < vortexx> oldlaptop: oh a new project at last?
02:40 < oldlaptop> (Some linuxes make an effort to yell at upstreams to GPG-sign their tarballs, and verify those signatures. That's not IMHO a very large improvement over verifying the checksums of the tarballs.)
02:40 < oldlaptop> vortexx: ?
02:40 < SOLARIS_s> agreed that's why i think ted pushed for those protections 
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02:41 < SOLARIS_s> no memory 
02:41 < welcome> I think the GPG thing is more a social "feeling" bassed approach, - people like gPG, so they think of things to use it with
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02:43 < SOLARIS_s> look how many exploits on major vendors these days they are done  run your carp and call it a day 
02:46 < SOLARIS_s> openbsd is the cisco killer OS right?
02:46 < dayid> vortexx: I saw you say that you saw it come to pf but couldn't tell if it was hitting nginx, is that right?
02:47 < dayid> I haven't touched nginx since back when it was the base httpd for whatever release that was years ago, but seems like you'd just want to make sure that you're getting "through" your PF etc all the same - so even basic debug like stopping the process and doing a netcat listener/tcpdump on the pflog seems like it'd get you somewhere.
02:51 < welcome> openbsd and cisco are like an apple tree and an orange tree, in my opinion. It isn't relly that sensible to compare them as such, they usually do filol different niches but openbsd can do most of what CIsco can do, but CIsco typically don't do the same in reverse becasue they are focussed on what Cisco do best
02:51 < welcome> *fill
02:52 < SOLARIS_s> really they can't change there plaintext passwd stuff
02:52 < welcome> who?
02:52 < SOLARIS_s> cisco
02:52 < welcome> they use encryption as well
02:53 < SOLARIS_s> on the webgui
02:53 < SOLARIS_s> they are done dood
02:54 < SOLARIS_s> sorry ppl who doesn't push acls on those interfaces
02:55 < SOLARIS_s> why is it every vendor as a exploit
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02:55 < SOLARIS_s> that was buried 10 years ago
02:56 < welcome> reminder, this in fact #openbsd
02:56 < SOLARIS_s> nods
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02:58 < welcome> CIsco's method accepts that if you have physical access to the device then it's pretty much in your hands except for newer switches (afaik)
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02:59 < SOLARIS_s> it's a war out there 
02:59 < SOLARIS_s> but cyber right
03:00 < SOLARIS_s> reminder blue boxes 
03:02 < SOLARIS_s> gm
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03:22 < welcome> I need to do some work
03:24 < welcome> I would like to implement an interlock-type mechanism with openbsd-based  crypto support but I don't know where in /usr/src I should look (after doing a cvs of the -stable branch)
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04:34 < welcome> I would like to know is cvs maintaining a database as well as making a mirror of source code? I KNOW I can JRTM but I would like to hear from you
04:35 < oldlaptop> I'm not sure what you mean by that.
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04:36 < oldlaptop> It doesn't maintain a local copy of the version history, in the way that git and other distributed VCSes do, if that's what you're asking.
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04:36 < welcome> So there's not like, a cvsdb in /var/somethingorother then
04:37 < pardis> that would require every user on the system to be able to write to that location, since any user can make a cvs checkout
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04:38 < oldlaptop> (or that some fragment of cvs be setuid, which sounds like a terrific idea that couldn't possibly have unfortunate consequences)
04:39 < welcome> ok
04:39 < welcome> Right.
04:39 < welcome> Does that mean I can safely simply make a backup of /usr/src if I need to rebuild a ystem?
04:39 < welcome> *system?
04:40 < oldlaptop> Yes, although you should note that (for releases) there's already a "backup of /usr/src" on the mirrors
04:40 < oldlaptop> (those tarballs all the way at the bottom: http://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/7.4/)
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04:41 < oldlaptop> if the only point is to avoid waiting for a complete cvs checkout, you can just use those (they're IIRC working CVS checkouts)
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04:44 < welcome> I was only hopng to conserve download data on my prepaid mobile : )
04:44 < welcome> *hoping
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05:05 < aaronm04> is game of trees (got) a popular choice these days? (instead of CVS)
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05:21 < slowdudetommy> What's good blud
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05:39 < welcome>  ok.,.,
05:40 < welcome> I'm looking at /usr/src/sys/crypto/aes.c
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05:58 < welcome> How do I use this crypto? Like, there are functions in the code but I'm having a mental blank on what to do with them- I understand #including headers, but if I need the functions do I need to copy them into my own code along with the disclaimer, or am I missing something?
05:59 < oldlaptop> What do you want to use them for?
06:01 < welcome> I am developing an encryption based intrelock mechanism which will be crypted BEFORE data even sees the container's interior
06:01 < oldlaptop> If you want to use cryptography in a *userland* application, you probably want to use libcrypto, not transplanted bits and pieces of the kernel.
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06:02 < welcome> no, I think this is the stuff of legend...
06:02 < oldlaptop> If you *are* doing kernel hacking, questions like this suggest that perhaps you have things to learn before you start into not just any kernel hacking, but kernel hacking on cryptosystems
06:04 < welcome> I'm not a hacker
06:04 < welcome> >-.-< sheesh
06:05 < oldlaptop> while that is very likely true, note http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#what_is
06:05  * welcome reads
06:05 < oldlaptop> ("kernel hacking" refers to that definition)
06:05 < oldlaptop> as does "shut up and hack", etc.
06:07 < welcome> o
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06:07 < welcome> I have seen that page or one like it before, but I am gald you cleared that up
06:07 < welcome> I like the term coder to avoid any ambiguity
06:08 < welcome> I'm not about to write yet a kernel object, but I need a crypo to build this interlock
06:09 < welcome> It's different in that while cryptos are usually performed "on-demand", I am planning to perform it in advance
06:09 < oldlaptop> You may want libcrypto, or some other cryptographic library.
06:10 < welcome> aes.c looks perfect to me, though, oldlaptop 
06:10 < welcome> I will look at your suggestion though
06:11 < oldlaptop> I don't know what you mean by "interlock", but it is *also* likely that whatever you're trying to do has been done before, without various disastrous bugs you'd be likely to write (as someone asking questions like this)
06:12 < oldlaptop> If the point is to learn things, that's fine as far as it goes. If the security of the thing you want to build is actually going to *matter*, you really need to stop and think about that.
06:12 < welcome> usr/src/lib/libcrypto/aes/aes_cbc.c
06:12 < welcome>  aren't these parts of the aes algorithm separated into pieces?
06:13 < oldlaptop> Note that libcrypto has manual pages, e.g. https://man.openbsd.org/crypto.3
06:13 < welcome> I spoke to theo, he said do it 
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06:18 < welcome> the man reference is well documented  I do not think it is as ideally suited however as the /sys/crypto code in aes.c
06:18 < welcome> for my intended purpose
06:19 < welcome> given my position, I seriously doubt anyone has thought of this idea before
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07:19 < welcome>  /usr/include/sys/systm.h:389:10: fatal error: lib/libkern/libkern.h: No such file or directory on egcc interlock.c
07:19 < welcome> I looked,
07:19 < welcome> and libkern.h is not present
07:19 < welcome> WHERE IS THAT header file???
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07:22 < welcome> Lemme guess: T.DeRaadt doesn't hand it out in the cvs archive without a specific request
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07:32 < avemestr> Yes, totally hidden in plain sight on the interwebz: https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/src/sys/lib/libkern/libkern.h?rev=1.36&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
07:33 < welcome> Oh, we'll be real good from now on, Mr. Caites
07:34 < welcome> (thanks)
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07:36 < pardis> are you for some reason attempting to use kernel headers in userland code?
07:37 < pardis> that is not going to end well even if you get all the headers together in one place
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07:40 < welcome> no
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07:40 < pardis> so you're writing kernel code?
07:41 < welcome> no
07:41 < pardis> the answers to those questions cannot both be no
07:41 < pardis> you are using kernel headers, and you are either writing userland code or kernel code
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07:43 < e54> pardis: Feel he's trolling. Could be wrong
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07:47 < welcome> I am writing a thing called interlock
07:47 < welcome> I need aes or something like it
07:48 < welcome> I was looking at Serpent but it isn't on OpenBSD base install
07:48 < welcome> aes.c has the code I need
07:48 < welcome> I am just tring to compile now
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07:49 < pardis> again, you can't just copy stuff out of the kernel and expect it to work in userland, if that is indeed what you are doing
07:50 < pardis> you will need to port that code to not rely on kernel internals if you for some reason refuse to use existing libraries that exist for this purpose
07:51 < welcome> I appreciate your tutilige and respect OpenBSD as much as I think one is supposed to
07:51 < welcome> I know you know what you're talking about
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08:40 < jfsimon1981_b> Good morning
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08:46 < byteskeptical> morrrning
08:46 < welcome> HELO
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08:53 < jfsimon1981_b> EHLO
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08:58 < sdk_> grr, why is the boot timeout ignored on my sparc64 machine? I want to start bsd.rd, but it jumps right over the boot prompt into booting /bsd.
08:59 < welcome> have you tried pressing space or Enter repeateedly as the boot prompt appears...?
09:00 < welcome> to interrupt it
09:00 < sdk_> yes
09:00 < welcome> humph
09:01 < sdk_> not via real keyboard, but via serial (there's no real keyboard attached). But /etc/boot.conf sais set timeout 5. And don't see it waiting at all.
09:01 < sdk_> *I don't see...
09:02 < sdk_> It can't boot from USB, so I guess I burn a CD :}
09:02 < welcome> I seem to rememeber reading something about this a long while back, that sparc machines do that. It might be BIOS-level stuff you need to consult but this was so long ago and I can't even be sure I'm exactly right about it
09:02 < byteskeptical> sdk_: try looking in your BIOS settings
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09:03 < welcome> bye for now, must... quke... code exhausted
09:03 < welcome> quaaaaake
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09:12 < sdk_> byteskeptical: Huh, thanks. I forgot that it's handeled by the openfw... "boot disk:a bsd.rd" does the trick.
09:12 < sdk_> (as described in INSTALL.sparc64)
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09:17 < byteskeptical> sdk_: happens to the best of us
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13:31 < welcome> HELO
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13:32 < welcome> I got it compiled and it produces output
13:32 < welcome> One problem
13:32 < welcome> I'm not sure I understand how to decrypt data yet : (
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13:39 < welcome> https://pastebin.com/pFRGgavZ shows an excerpt rom aes.c-derived interlock.c, a project I am working on. I cannot work out how this decrypts anything, can someone explain?
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13:41 < welcome> This is the counterpart https://pastebin.com/ASJNzTc8
13:46 < phy1729> It doesn't encrypt or decrypt anything it packs or unpacks 4 chars into an uint32_t
13:46 < welcome> thankyou
13:46 < welcome> You are very helpful, phy1729 and straight to business
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15:32 < PyR3X> I'm looking to replace my server which currently sits at the edge with a small router/gateway (and move the server behind it) -- any recommendations for hardware that works well with openbsd?
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15:44 < welcome> I get good work from lenovo laptops
15:44 < CNOT> PyR3X: hurr durr https://www.google.com/search?q=small+router+computer+openbsd
15:44 < CNOT> supposed to be priv msg :/
15:44 < oldlaptop> PyR3X: :( alas for the apu2 line
15:44 < welcome> k
15:45 < oldlaptop> CNOT: That doesn't make it better, really.
15:47 < lts> Some old Dell/HP/etc SFF computer or a thin client
15:48 < oldlaptop> The SFF droneboxes/thin-clients usually have one ethernet interface and no good way to add more, AIUI.
15:48 < lts> A router needs only one network interface
15:48 < lts> Assuming you have managed switch(es) and run vlans
15:49 < lts> This said, SFF boxes typically have 1-2 PCIe slots
15:50 < oldlaptop> Ah - the "half-width" ones with PCIe slots, sure. (In the context of "small router/gateway" what springs immediately to mind is what they sometimes call the uSFF boxes, which do not have room for that kind of thing.)
15:51 < oldlaptop> The thing about *those* SFF boxes is that there's not going to be much of a power consumption difference between that and any other commodity desktop PC, and if anything noise will be worse than average
15:52 < oldlaptop> (and of course anything designed as a desktop is going to lack real serial console support)
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15:53 < CNOT> anyone of these are good, buy one with a good CPU and you will be able to filter traffic with looots of rules on a gigabit link → https://teklager.se/en/products/routers/ -- for example the APU2E0 is perfect, if you are okay with using serial cable for the terminal access
15:54 < oldlaptop> apu2 are EOL - I agree they remain a fantastic option if you can get your hands on one, but that's only going to get harder
15:55 < oldlaptop> They won't generally filter/route a full gigabit either, although I can confirm they'll shovel the full gigabit from one port in a veb(4) to another
15:57 < oldlaptop> pcengines themselves have been out of stock on the apu2 boards for a while now
15:57 < lts> Heck, an old laptop (;-)) will be a wonderful router if you have managed switches with vlans
15:57 < oldlaptop> You do get a built-in UPS.
15:58 < oldlaptop> I've abused laptops as gateways before (with cardbus for the second ethernet port). It can work-ish.
15:59 < oldlaptop> I wouldn't want to use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:XJACK_network_card_extended.jpg in any kind of long-term application :P
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16:01 < lts> No need, you can get a nice managed switch with vlans for 30 dollars/euros
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16:20 < vortexx> PyR3X: Odroid H3 ?
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16:22 < Zyxer> Hi
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16:22 < Zyxer> When I try to syspatch I get this error
16:22 < Zyxer> syspatch: Error retrieving https://cdn.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/syspatch/7.4/macppc/SHA256.sig: 404 Not Found
16:23 < oldlaptop> I don't think macppc gets (or has ever gotten) binary patches.
16:24 < oldlaptop> You would need to do what everyone did before syspatch (which wasn't *all* that long ago...), follow the instructions in the patch headers to build them yourself.
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16:24 < phy1729> https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq10.html#Patches
16:25 < phy1729> huh sparc64 gets package updates but not syspatch
16:25 < oldlaptop> https://www.openbsd.org/errata74.html doesn't have any examples because there aren't any patches(!), but you can look at any one of the errata for previous releases
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16:25 < Zyxer> Oh, thank you. Then manual patching thing
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16:26 < oldlaptop> On a macppc machine you probably want to patch things individually rather than building -stable releases, but maybe you don't mind waiting all day
16:26 < Zyxer> I don't mind waiting 2 days now
16:26 < Zyxer> but no more then I will get impatient
16:27 < oldlaptop> as a general rule individual patches won't be *too* bad in that regard (especially since they won't generally be against clang/llvm...)
16:27 < Zyxer> So I follow the manuall upgrade guide?
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16:28 < oldlaptop> Your options are listed in the FAQ page phy1729 linked; I guess you could manually upgrade to snapshots, but then you're running snapshots.
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16:29 < Zyxer> ok damn, gotta do that tomorrow then, gotta bounce in 30 mins. Stupid to stress read this thing. Thanks for the help!
16:30 < oldlaptop> You'll see there's a link to https://www.openbsd.org/stable.html - that's the guide for rebuilding the whole system from -stable sources. ISTR someone by your name had an iMac G3? I'd expect a full userland build to take quite a while...
16:30 < oldlaptop> The errata each have a quick guide to how to apply the patch and recompile the affected software in the patch header.
16:33 < Zyxer> 12 hour work shift tomorrow, and I have a linux laptop for gaming as well as a switch. Also I can occupy myself with reading up on jam/marmelade making (I made amazing jam/marmelade because I refused to waste the handpicked local berries just because I got the coloring and some taste out of them)
16:33 < Zyxer> Yes, I am the G3 guy, I changed the thermal paste so it got a bit snappier, e.g dwm takes 4 seconds to build instead of 5
16:34 < Zyxer> DX
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16:39 < oldlaptop> Most of the system's components would be fine *individually* - I'd expect a kernel to take maybe an hour or three - but building a whole release will involve building llvm and clang
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16:41 < vortexx> dayid: traffic connects to nginx but nginx doesn't pass traffic to the server, it's so weird (I checked with pfctl -s state to make sure there were connections being made)
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17:45 < quinq> Hummm
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17:46 < quinq> in my httpd.conf, I have types {\n include         "/usr/share/misc/mime.types"\n text/plain      log\n }
17:46 < quinq> But httpd tells me: /etc/httpd.conf:28: syntax error
17:47 < quinq> It works fine if I use another ext name than log though
17:47 < quinq> Any idea why?
17:47 < quinq> There's no trace of "log" in /usr/share/misc/mime.types
17:47 < oldlaptop> does log need to be quoted as conflicting with a keyword?
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17:49 < quinq> Hummm, the man-page doesn't tell anything about quoting
17:49 < quinq> (not in the format description nor in the examples)
17:50 < quinq> Though indeed, then httpd doesn't complain about it
17:50 < oldlaptop> also doesn't give as examples any extensions that happen to be keywords
17:50 < quinq> That looks like a documentation “bug”
17:50 < oldlaptop> patches welcome, I'm sure?
17:50 < quinq> Thanks oldlaptop :)
17:51 < quinq> I don't know if you're sure or not, sorry :/
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17:54 < Posterdati> hi
17:54 < Posterdati> so
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17:54 < Posterdati> 7.4 broke lisp :) ecl and sbcl are not working :)
17:55 < quinq> What's the error?
17:55 < oldlaptop> https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/src/usr.sbin/httpd/parse.y?rev=1.128&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup certainly reads as permitting quoted strings (text search medianamesl, numberstring is not far below it)
17:56 < oldlaptop> I'd speculate \l\o\g also works, judging from yylex()
17:56 < quinq> And maybe \log
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18:29 < dj_goku> Any nano pi r5s users in here. I can boot after install but getting init /dev/console not configured. Trying to figure out the best way to get a dmesg from the system.
18:31 < vortexx> is that even in the supported list for arm64?
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18:31 < dj_goku> it is.
18:32 < dj_goku> At least this NanoPi R5S is on https://www.openbsd.org/arm64.html
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18:40 < dj_goku> There is nothing special I need to do with rk3568-nanopi-r5s.dtb after installing but before booting?
18:41 < dj_goku> I guess that would have been in the install guide.
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19:16 < PyR3X> how do I autoselect jdk-17 when doing 'pkg_add jdk'
19:16 < PyR3X> pkg_add jdk-- doesn't work
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19:18 < phy1729> jdk%17
19:21 < PyR3X> I just found that from the man page before I checked back here -- thanks
19:27 < rcharles> How do should I get xrandr to detect integrated HDMI on X1 Carbon?
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19:28 < rcharles> It's currently listed as disconnected even though the cable is connected to powered on screen. I've already tried changing cables to no avail.
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19:44 < vortexx> I've given up on nginx as a reverse proxy and am now trying relayd again, using an example found on misc@ : https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=156932095820168&w=2 but modified for internal lan IPs. But it's giving me error 400 The plain HTTP request was sent to HTTPS port
19:44 < vortexx> when connecting to the nextcloud.example.com
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19:44 < vortexx> at least the traffic is going through the firewall to relayd and then on to the nextcloud server
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19:46 < vortexx> my relayd config here: https://clbin.com/o9RJ7
19:47 < vortexx> pf rule for https : pass in on egress proto tcp from any to (egress) port = 443 flags S/SA
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21:02 < rcharles> dmesg
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21:22 < armin> "Directory does not contain SHA256.sig. Continue without verification? [no]" this here makes absolutely zero sense to me. https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Download even states that it makes zero sense for the installer to verify that. so why does that question pop up at all and why is the default no?
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21:23 < thrig> easier to automate an interactive script than to write a different script for the automated bit?
21:24 < armin> that's a bug in that case, there's no reason for that question to pup in an interactive session.
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21:24 < armin> of course it's easier to write bugs.
21:24 < armin> still, that's a bug IMO.
21:25 < armin> pass some variable and test if it's set or whatever, but if it makes no sense for the installer to check that, then that question is simply pointless.
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21:26 < armin> i mean the installer knows that it runs an interactive session, why not just skip that question? does it make sense to check for a signature or not now?
21:28 < armin> and no it's not easy to automate interactive scripts, at all. like, it just isn't. it's MUCH easier to change that script.
21:28 < thrig> if you say so
21:28 < armin> i do say so, yes.
21:30 < armin> the whole idea of that installer is to NOT ask questions it doesn't have to ask, i guess everybody of us has entered "yes" as a username at some point. the installer catches this because it assumes reasonable thinking of the person who uses it.
21:31 < armin> it would be trivial to simply make the default answer yes here.
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21:33 < armin> why explicitly let a user have to type "yes[enter]" here if checking for a signature makes zero sense anyways, as stated in the documentation?
21:33 < thrig> why not submit a patch and see how that goes
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21:34 < armin> good point. at least i could say "well i tried" afterwards.
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21:35 < armin> but yeah, thank you, that manifests the impression that this makes no sense.
21:41 < quinq> In the case of the installXX images, maybe, but have you considered the other use-cases?
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21:44 < armin> quinq: i did, does it make sense to check for the signature now or not? if it does, then it's a documentation bug. if it indeed doesn't, and the documentation is right and it's safe to say yes, then why is the default no?
21:45 < quinq> In the other use-cases, yes it does
21:45 < quinq> How is it a documentation bug?
21:46 < armin> the documentation clearly states that it would make zero sense for the installer to check that.
21:46 < quinq> In the case of the installXX images, yes
21:46 < quinq> So it documents that exception
21:46 < armin> "This is because it would make no sense for the installer to verify them."
21:46 < quinq> For “The install74.iso and install74.img”
21:47 < armin> so one has to get used to explicitly state yes here while not even the partitioner requires you to type anything and will just overwrite your hard drive if you hit enter?
21:48 < quinq> You don't have to get used to it
21:48 < quinq> You can read the sentences before answering to them
21:48 < quinq> You can also modify the script in the case of installXX images if that's less effort to you
21:48 < armin> well there's this thing called "muscle memory", that's how driving a car or bike works, too.
21:48 < armin> ouch.
21:49 < quinq> When driving a car, my “muscle memory” makes me be prudent when crossing a traffic light, even if it's green
21:49 < quinq> Should be the same when an interactive script waits for you to continue
21:50 < armin> when driving a car, the majority of drivers gets pretty upset when the lights get red because someone on the pavement hits the button just to troll car drivers.
21:50 < quinq> Those must be the same people who wrote the install script
21:50 < armin> guess so.
21:51 < quinq> They just do that to spite people that just want to press enter by muscle memory without reading first
21:52 < armin> so what exactly would it break to make the default yes here?
21:53 < quinq> I guess it would defeat the purpose of asking
21:53 < armin> assuming an answer does not defeat asking, no.
21:54 < quinq> Assuming yes to a failed security check
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21:54 < armin> if it's a security check, then how would it make no sense to verify?
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21:54 < quinq> Have you read the full sentence?
21:54 < armin> yes.
21:55 < phy1729> There is one installer script. No it's the safe default in all settings.
21:55 < quinq> Then you already know the answer to your question :)
21:58 < armin> okay, so basically one needs to get used to always check the signature and only if THAT matches what https://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/7.4/openbsd-74-base.pub THEN it is safe to say yes here. okay, i did not get that right in the first place.
21:58 < armin> i mean the reason the image doesn't include that is clear, that makes perfect sense to me.
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21:59 < quinq> This is about the SHA256.sig file
21:59 < armin> yes, this is about the installer, not me, i get it now.
21:59 < armin> i'm not the installer.
21:59 < armin> i'm the person using that installer.
21:59 < armin> okay, that makes sense now, thanks for the clarification.
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22:00 < armin> 23:54 [ quinq] Have you read the full sentence?
22:00 < armin> the thing is the 2nd and 3rd sentence here, took me some time to realize, you're right.
22:02 < quinq> I was just trying to explain why it's like that, I guess it would be nicer to have a yes answer by default in the case of installXX images, but I suppose that making a different script for different use-cases isn't deemed worth the effort
22:02 < armin> no you're completely right, the no default makes sense even.
22:02 < armin> took me some time to understand, thank you again.
22:03 < quinq> You're welcom, thank you for your effort
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22:23 < armin> https://www.heise.de/news/Casino-Hacks-Angreifer-erbeuteten-Zugangscodes-beim-Identitaetsdienst-Okta-9340540.html
22:23 < armin> bwahaha
22:23 < armin> oh damnit, wrong window
22:23 < armin> my apologies.
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22:24 < armin> *walks over to openbsd-social*
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--- Log closed Sun Oct 22 00:00:45 2023