--- Log opened Mon Oct 23 00:00:39 2023
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05:09 < lts> Is imagemagick still used, and not graphicsmagic? It's been over 20 years
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05:14 < hardkorebob> <hardkorebob> Im starting the official FCBG OpenBSD User Group
05:14 < hardkorebob> <hardkorebob> s/FC/FX
05:14 < hardkorebob> <hardkorebob> in VA USA
05:14 < hardkorebob> y bad
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05:14 < hardkorebob> s/y/my
05:15 < hardkorebob> hi all
05:17 < oldlaptop> lts: If graphicsmagick ever came close to that, it doesn't seem to be very close now.
05:17 < hardkorebob> just installed 74
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05:54 < myappie> hardkorebob: thats great!
05:55 < myappie> lts: Actually libvips is "the new" go-to i'd say
05:57 < hardkorebob> i guess so
05:57 < myappie> Way faster than any the Magick stuff. I use it to replicate advanced post-processing techniques from Adobe software and camera emulations. So you can use it for anything really.
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05:58 < myappie> And it handles all the images uploaded to my Rails apps (https://github.com/libvips/ruby-vips)
05:58 < lts> Interesting
05:59 < myappie> Was just in their Gitter channel thanking them for their amazing software :thumbsup:
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06:03 < armin> wow, IPv4 really *is* a heated topic in the OpenBSD world, there really seems to be absolutely no interest in supporting that, considering how much hate I'm getting for asking for an AAAA entry for openbsd.org on misc.
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06:04 < lts> You mean s/4/6/ I think
06:04 < armin> yes.
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06:05 < armin> I'm not fully awake, yet. It's 8am over here.
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06:05 < armin> But yeah, receiving so much hate for this isn't cool.
06:06 < hardkorebob> morning
06:06 < hardkorebob> no more v4 support?
06:06 < armin> hardkorebob: nobody wants to take v4 connectivity.
06:07 < armin> hardkorebob: what I'm asking about is *adding* v6 connectivity.
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06:07 < hardkorebob> what does that mean "take v4"??
06:07 < hardkorebob> as in maintain it for obsd ?
06:08 < armin> hardkorebob: taking v4 would be to remove the A entry in DNS. Nobody wants to do that.
06:08 < hardkorebob> like they need someone to care for it?
06:08 < hardkorebob> oh
06:08 < hardkorebob> why would u want to?
06:08 < hardkorebob> its been working forever
06:08 < hardkorebob> whats the point in removing something not broken?
06:08 < armin> hardkorebob: What I'm explicitly asking for is *adding* an AAAA entry, so that the host is connectable if you have a v6 only link.
06:08 < hardkorebob> point me to RTFM so i can get it more 
06:08 < armin> hardkorebob: Again, nobody wants to remove something.
06:09 < hardkorebob> ok
06:09 < hardkorebob> ur proposal makes sense on the surface
06:09 < armin> hardkorebob: I'm just having a discussion about that on the misc@ ML because I asked for an AAAA entry. All I get so far was pure hate.
06:09 < hardkorebob> oh
06:09 < hardkorebob> disregard it
06:09 < hardkorebob> explain it further
06:10 < hardkorebob> im open to listening
06:10 < hardkorebob> maybe u will see something new
06:10 < lts> I'm one of many who are fed up enough with ipv6 adding bugs and complexity that I disable it everywhere I see it. But at the same time, I think OpenBSD should be a capable tool and have better support for it than anything else. And then again, does a website need ipv6 for that to happen, and are there perhaps requirements from hosting support which would make AAAA unfeasible
06:10 < hardkorebob> im in #0xfu
06:10 < hardkorebob> if u dont want it to be here
06:10 < hardkorebob> obsd will set the standard
06:10 < hardkorebob> just wait
06:10 < armin> lts: Again, nobody wants to force IPv6 on you. If you want to remain in the legacy-IP-only world that's entirely fine. 
06:11 < hardkorebob> good
06:11 < lts> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=169800650126913&w=2 is the discussion for context
06:12 < armin> correct.
06:13 < armin> OpenBSD has excellent support for IPv6, all my OpenBSD machines use it without any issue. But not even being able to talk to the website on v6-only hosts is just painful.
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06:24 < lts> I think the discussion is fine, perhaps excluding the first "why do you need it" message. They're not saying this should not be done
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06:29 < myappie> armin: yeah there's SO MUCH HATE in the openbsd community
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06:30 < myappie> we gotta find a way to fix that
06:31 < IcePic> as an operator of a v6 capable mirror, I support having the ftplist1 resolve to v6 also. v6only should be an option imho
06:31 < armin> ftplist2 is v4 only also.
06:32 < IcePic> anyone who rents a small VPS today with a v4 on it is paying more for the ip than the share of the resources on the host
06:32 < myappie> i reckon http/2 is more important, idk :shrug:
06:33 < armin> IcePic: exactly.
06:33 < myappie> thats insane
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06:35 < IcePic> this time last year, prices peaked at some $60 per ip, even when bought in larger ranges
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06:36 < armin> IcePic: Amazon is going to charge you 50 a year for a single IPv4 address starting in 8 weeks
06:36 < lts> I'm willing to pay a little more for not having to deal with ipv6 :-) This said, ftplists should be made to support v6 as suggested
06:37 < armin> lts: Again if you want to remain in the legacy IP only world that's entirely fine, nobody wants to force IPv6 on you. 
06:37 < armin> lts: Paying for less connectivity seems pointless to me, though.
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06:38 < IcePic> I'm sure a lot of VPS vendors can have your box use a 10.x v4 and real v6, and cgnat it outwards, so you can still connect to all the fancy v4-only services (github... )you need
06:39 < quinq> #industry
06:40 < hardkorebob> having a snag
06:40 < hardkorebob> cant find info on the net
06:40 < hardkorebob> python-tkinter no module named error
06:40 < hardkorebob> cant find it
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06:40 < hardkorebob> its installed
06:40 < hardkorebob> ???
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06:40 < armin> IcePic: You could as well just use some sane Git hoster and not having to continue to build broken NAT networks.
06:41 < quinq> You can use it, that won't fix the 70% of people being emotionally linked to github
06:41  * myappie forks openbsd src to make it so that every config file first and foremost supports ruby (like in rails, every file is ruby)
06:42 < myappie> a lifesaver or unnecessary abstraction i wonder
06:42 < armin> quinq: correct. FWIW I deleted my GitHub account in 2022.
06:42 < quinq> One step closer to nirvana
06:42 < myappie> dealing with TLS certs is a LOT of repetition over a LOT of files, it would make that so much easier :thinking_face:
06:44  * welcome laughs
06:45 < welcome> (thinking_face:)
06:45 < hardkorebob> myappie, i like it
06:45 < myappie> hehe
06:45 < myappie> thanks hardkorebob!
06:45 < hardkorebob> im gonna fork it too
06:45 < hardkorebob> but
06:45 < hardkorebob> just need to get python running firt
06:47 < myappie> great!
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06:50 < hardkorebob> yea
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06:50 < hardkorebob> ugh
06:50 < myappie> and feel free to submit PRs
06:50 < hardkorebob> it needs to support tkinter by dfault
06:50 < myappie> i we're not suposed to :)
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06:50 < myappie> but im gonna do it, idgaf lol
06:50 < hardkorebob> no PR submission from me
06:50 < hardkorebob> I just need it to understand Python is the next C
06:51 < hardkorebob> ugh
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06:51 < myappie> is it??
06:51 < myappie> but Ruby's the next Python they say (or maybe i was dreaming)
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06:53 < hardkorebob> lol
06:54 < hardkorebob> tk dev in ruby is behind friend
06:54 < hardkorebob> ive already checked
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06:54 < hardkorebob> im doing qa on standards
06:54 < hardkorebob> ruby has failed
06:54 < hardkorebob> next:
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06:59 < hardkorebob> boom!
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07:00 < myappie> hehe
07:03 < myappie> what about a dumbed version of the official docs? ie. a future man.openbsd.org where you can select levels "Expert" and "Beginner"...
07:06 < myappie> ive transferred the openbsd docs to a vector database. please see: https://pastebin.com/raw/4K73LGXz
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07:08 < zelest> I think the docs are very "beginner" as it is.
07:08 < hardkorebob> docs are fine
07:11 < armin> I'm very happy with the documentation.
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07:17 < myappie> yeah its truly amazing.. im just making an equally amazing UI for it (that is reactive, has semantic search and is professionally typeset. you can also "talk to each man page" like its a chat bot)
07:19 < hardkorebob> cool
07:19 < hardkorebob> for the whippersnappers
07:19 < hardkorebob> plain text is fine
07:19 < hardkorebob> that amazing ui will be broken eventually
07:20 < hardkorebob> but do it
07:20 < hardkorebob> for sure
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07:22 < myappie> word :) w3m users are gonna love it too i promise (and it'll be available in all the major languages)
07:23 < IcePic> that vectorization of the docs pastebin was full of marketing lingo and crap, I'm sorry to say.
07:24 < IcePic> for docs, there is nothing wrong if people are not looking too often at the manpage for madvise(2) or the "how do I rebuild X11" faq page.
07:25 < IcePic> it's written as if "you" flips between site owner and the visitor, neither of which will be affiliated with the openbsd project I gather
07:25 < IcePic> But I guess bots are good at producing such content nowadays, it will work fine for corporate presentaions and internal meetings
07:26 < hardkorebob> man pages! rtfm
07:26 < hardkorebob> .
07:26 < IcePic> hardkorebob: that would be Kamasutra, right? the F... manual.
07:26 < hardkorebob> umm
07:26 < hardkorebob> huh
07:27  * hardkorebob slaps IcePic with a fairly smelly and large trout
07:27 < hardkorebob> read the fucking manual
07:27 < hardkorebob> is the right acronym def
07:28 < hardkorebob> Kamasutra is idian s3x stuff
07:28 < Zyxer> Hi
07:28 < hardkorebob> hi
07:28 < Zyxer> I am on iMac G3 and think I broke my system
07:28 < Zyxer> I was gonna upgrade to 7.4, and run sysupgrade
07:28 < Zyxer> Then it rebooted
07:29 < Zyxer> Now I can't pkg_add or anything
07:29 < hardkorebob> check
07:29 < hardkorebob> echo $PKG_PATH
07:29 < Zyxer> oh, it empty
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07:30 < IcePic> Mac G3 would be macppc, ie 32bit ppc. Perhaps the 7.4 bulk packages isn't done for it yet?
07:30 < Zyxer> I was told I have to upgrade the old way, and sue to tight schedule I missunderstood and did the manual way
07:30 < hardkorebob> try the website for istructions on adding it
07:31 < hardkorebob> rtfm
07:31 < hardkorebob> lol
07:31 < IcePic> on the ports@ maillist, it seems that a bulk build for macppc takes around 21 days.
07:31 < hardkorebob> oh
07:31 < Zyxer> and ended up deleting /bsd.rd after realising the manual way was notthe proper way for it
07:31 < hardkorebob> i didnt realize the diff arch had diff stuff
07:31 < IcePic> my guess is that the 7.4 package build started less than 21 days ago
07:31 < hardkorebob> my bad im always intel
07:32 < Zyxer> I rolled a 1 on brain check 
07:32 < hardkorebob> lol
07:32 < hardkorebob> im gonna roll
07:32 < IcePic> Zyxer: near the bottom of https://www.openbsd.org/74.html you see that 32bit arm and 32bit ppc have no package counts yet
07:32 < hardkorebob> i got a 2
07:32  * hardkorebob rolled a dice irl
07:32 < Zyxer> But someone said I should be able to build 7.4 myself?
07:32 < IcePic> and m88k won't even get an entry.
07:32 < IcePic> I should build a nono-pkg-build cluster for m88k
07:33 < Zyxer> There was supposedly a guide that drowned in this chat
07:33 < Zyxer> I was told it may take me a few days to upgrade to 7.4 due to the hardware taking time to compile
07:33 < IcePic> Zyxer: I think you should just stick with it for a few days like it is now, then try pkg_add -u every few days and you will notice when new packages are in place
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07:34 < Zyxer> No such dir tho'
07:34 < Zyxer> Oh well, if it really solves the issue to wait some then I can
07:35 < hardkorebob> i want to run obsd o my mac book pro
07:35 < hardkorebob> but nope
07:35 < Zyxer> If there is a way for me to lend my hardware to help speed up compiling some packages then I'd be happy to
07:36 < IcePic> Zyxer: its not that simple, especially not with a single box here, and another there
07:36 < Zyxer> How important is the /bsd.rd file? Is it only used for upgrading?
07:37 < IcePic> upgrades and recovery
07:37 < IcePic> not used normally
07:37 < Zyxer> Oh thank god, then no problem me deleting it, well, assuming I don't need recovery thing
07:37 < IcePic> I would keep it
07:37 < IcePic> you never know when root fs acts up
07:37 < Zyxer> Ok ok ok so just wait 1-2 weeks then I should be able to upgrade normally
07:38 < Zyxer> IcePic: Yea well I tried the manual upgrade which was a failure and it included copying a bsd.rd to / and when I realised I was not supposed to follow that guide I semi panicked and undid the cp bsd.rd /bsd.rd
07:39 < Zyxer> Otherwise I don't touch root dir at all
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07:39 < IcePic> for recovery, one can boot bsd.rd from most anywhere the platform allows, like netbooting, cdrom or so
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07:40 < IcePic> but its handy (for me at least) to leave one as /bsd.rd 
07:41 < Zyxer> wait wtf it tried to upgrade to 7.5
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07:42 < Zyxer> ok I am on 7.4 due to sysupgrade but I haven't been able to do syspatch or pkg_add -Uu or sysmerge -d
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07:48 < Zyxer> So I got my hands on an old laptop, panasonic toughbook, DDR2 RAM
07:49 < Zyxer> It claims it wants 16V from charger, would it be safe for me to feed it with 20V?
07:49 < IcePic> probably not
07:49 < Zyxer> Damn, ok 
07:49 < Zyxer> Need to find something else then. 
07:50 < IcePic> this is why EU mandated usb-c charging, since all laptops deliberately use weird different voltages, like 16,17.5,19,21V and so on
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07:52 < Zyxer> Uh.... 
07:53 < Zyxer> these 16V ones are over 20 year old
07:53 < Zyxer> I think
07:53 < Zyxer> or around there
07:53 < Zyxer> Back in the day when laptops were rare to start with
07:54 < Zyxer> It came with windows vista, I found another laptop charger made for IBM thinkpad, 28 year old laptop, it also does the 16V
07:54 < Zyxer> Now gotta double check + and - line up
07:56 < Zyxer> Voltmeter says it is correct polarity
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07:56 < Zyxer> Pray to the Puffer it actually is correct, then I will run OpenBSD on ancient laptop made before the hardware backdoors (I hope)
07:57 < Zyxer> >Inbefore the battery so busted shit explodes
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08:00 < Zyxer> Hahahaha it uses McAffee Disk encryption
08:00 < Zyxer> I didn't know that existed
08:01 < Zyxer> Also this is the sexiest CD-drive I have ever seen
08:01 < Zyxer> Well, it should have minimum 1GB RAM, enough to run OpenBSD on it
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08:04 < Zyxer> Screen needs replacing,it is a bit damaged. This is gonna be fun to play around with
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08:15 < Zyxer> It was the drive that was encrypted, not some fancy ROM BIOS thingy 
08:15 < Zyxer> I am gonna open it up and change thermal paste then install openBSD on intel centrino
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09:23 < hardkorebob> anyone in or close to 22401? then #obsd.py
09:23 < hardkorebob> thanks
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11:26 < pertho> heh.. 22401.. Fredericksburg, VA?
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12:43 < viq|w> Nah, still in 2023 ;)
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14:15 < Filystyn> GUUUUYYYSSSS 7.4 obsd pkg_add -u finally makes check in a blink of eye
14:15 < zelest> That will probably be fixed soon. :)
14:15 < Filystyn> no
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14:34 < RobbieAB> It does look a little broken... 
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15:27 < CNOT> feels nice running a Tor relay shuffling traffic all day long, using OpenBSD :)
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17:00 < CNOT> so if i want to change the limit for the number of open files for a user, i add a new entry in /etc/login.conf that says, eg. tor:\ <nl> :openfiles-cur=8192:\ <nl> :openfiles-max=32768:\ <nl> :tc=daemon:, and i update the /etc/master.passwd file so the _tor user belongs to the tor class... 
17:01 < CNOT> but when i run doas -u _tor /bin/ksh -c 'ulimit -a' it still says "nofiles(descriptors) 512"
17:02 < CNOT> where <nl> is new line
17:04 < CNOT> ok whatever, this fixes it magically somehow:   usermod -L tor _tor
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17:10 < IcePic> CNOT: if you had a db made from "cap_mkdb", then perhaps usermod runs it for oyu
17:10 < IcePic> (cap_mkdb turns login.conf into a database which has priority over the textfile it comes from)
17:11 < CNOT> i didnt do that, the manuals said i should not use cap_mkdb if i have a small number of users
17:11 < IcePic> do you have a login.conf.db file?
17:12 < CNOT> no
17:12 < _spk_> is it not becaues the passwd file is also turned into a db at /etc/pwd.db ?
17:12 < _spk_> I think usermod automatically regenerates that for you, just editing master.passwd means you'd need to that yourself
17:12 < CNOT> :)!
17:13 < CNOT> yeah it felt a bit shaky to modify those files by hand
17:13 < IcePic> vipw helps a bit 
17:13 < IcePic> does some sanity checks for you
17:15 < _spk_> you can also create the relevant password databases with pwd_mkdb - I assume that's the default now (probably for a long time!) as my servers have them
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17:18 < CNOT> ok!
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20:12 < pertho> hmm.. why do pfctl informational messages get send to STDERR instead of STDOUT?
20:14 < phy1729> which informational messages?
20:14 < dayid> pertho: Can you give an example?
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20:24 < pertho> dayid: pfctl -t sometable -T add 192.168.1.1 for example.. outputs "1/1 addresses added." to STDERR instead of STDOUT
20:25 < phy1729> That feels more like a stderr than a stdout line. Similar to dd's statistics after it runs.
20:26 < thrig> also no bueno if status lines end up piped into some file with the addresses and whatnot
20:27 < uwharrie> The convention I've seen is that if any output is useful in a pipe, it gets sent to stdout and everything else goes to stderr
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20:32 < thrig> opinions differ as to where help text should go
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20:34 < echelon> hi, why does cd installer expect a SHA256.sig file when it's not included?
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20:42 < phy1729> Because there's one installer and if you're fetching sets from the internet you should verify them, but the signature file includes the installXX.img file, so you can't put the sig file in the image.
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20:47 < echelon> why is there a Canada/Mountain timezone but not an America/Mountain
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20:48 < oldlaptop> because it's called MST instead, as far as I'm aware
20:50 < oldlaptop> (note that "America" pertains to both American continents, not the USA)
20:50 < oldlaptop> There is also a US/Mountain
20:53 < rebo> Beer. Cats. Reading up on thinkpads. 
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21:00 < sibiria> beer, cats and reading up on laptops sounds like a nice monday evening
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21:02 < oldlaptop> Canada/Mountain and US/Mountain are both links, apparently (to appropriate zones under America/). https://github.com/eggert/tz/blob/4a577028c65c70f6a85726ee34d307ee4a51b24d/backward#L122 https://github.com/eggert/tz/blob/4a577028c65c70f6a85726ee34d307ee4a51b24d/backward#L53
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21:06 < echelon> oldlaptop: well what happens when it's MDT, do i need to keep changing time zones?
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21:07 < thrig> in theory the zoneinfo knows about the DST rules (until the politicians change them, again)
21:10 < oldlaptop> echelon: You should normally use one of the canonical zones under (for Canada or the continental US) America/ in any case.
21:11 < oldlaptop> (America/Denver, in the case of "mountain time")
21:12 < thrig> unless arizona, unless ...
21:12 < oldlaptop> hence America/Phoenix, presumably
21:13 < dayid> Which is why there's MST7MDT
21:14 < dayid> echelon: ^
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22:30  * mybalzitch kicks his timezone in the nuts
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23:11 < echelon> oldlaptop, dayid thanks!
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23:20 < echelon> when it says init: kernel security level changed from 1 to 0, is it safe to turn off?
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--- Log closed Tue Oct 24 00:00:47 2023