--- Log opened Wed Nov 01 00:00:54 2023
--- Day changed Wed Nov 01 2023
00:00 < thrig> why do you want the entire system in a chroot?
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00:02 < hardkorebob> it was a quick blurp out my brain
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00:02 < hardkorebob> but isnt that what a chroot is ? a complete other system on the same sys
00:02 < hardkorebob> https://www.tubsta.com/2020/01/creating-a-chroot-in-openbsd/
00:03 < hardkorebob> i found that to answer my q
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00:03 < thrig> no? a chroot such as /var/www might only have what limited web stuff is needed
00:03 < hardkorebob> oh
00:03 < hardkorebob> see im learning everyday
00:04 < hardkorebob> didint even know that was possible
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02:00 < jrmu> Can anyone recommend some books/guides for handling routers/switches that are vendor agnostic? Most of the books seem to be specifically for Cisco, ideally I'd have something written for OpenBSD
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03:08 < LaoGrue> jrmu: I think M W Lucas has some relevant material in his books.
03:08 < LaoGrue> specifically for OpenBSD, in fact
03:09 < LaoGrue> There's also The Book of PF.
03:12 < lts> The Book of PF
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03:15 < LaoGrue> yep
03:15 < LaoGrue> that's the name of the book
03:16 < dayid> I can't think of any real vendor-agnostic switch/routing things that aren't like introductory material for college courses
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03:16 < dayid> jrmu: Are you wanting technical/practical stuff or theory/networking generality?
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03:18 < jrmu> dayid: ideally both
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03:18 < jrmu> LaoGrue: Yeah I am thinking of getting the book of PF but there's another one I think would fit better
03:18 < jrmu> incidentally, is the Book of PF worth buying for someone who's familiar already with OpenBSD's PF FAQ? I'm not sure if there's a lot of new content
03:18 < LaoGrue> I think so.
03:19 < jrmu> I'm thinking of getting Interconnections: Bridges, Routers, Switches, and Internetworking by Radia Perlman, it's a bit old but seems mostly vendor agnostic
03:19 < LaoGrue> . . . but I'm not sure.  I haven't looked at it in a few years.
03:20 < lts> There is plenty of stuff in the Book of PF that's not in the FAQ, e.g. high availability with CARP
03:21 < LaoGrue> The Book of PF takes kind of a principles-first approach, if I recall correctly, so it should be a bit more in-depth just in the theory of it than the FAQ.
03:22 < dayid> jrmu: you'd want the second/updated book of PF - but if you're already using PF fairly "powerfully" it's likely a reminder to you.
03:22 < dayid> I have the original and my work (through some publishing company) gave me access to the 2nd and it's a nice refresher/read but nothing groundbreaking.
03:22 < lts> 3rd edition came out in 2014 :-) 
03:22 < dayid> ah - then yes - 3rd.... shows my attention
03:23 < LaoGrue> har
03:23 < jrmu> yeah I'm thinking about getting the 3rd edition
03:23 < jrmu> they don't have any paper copies though it'd be an ebook
03:23 < lts> Ebooks have handy search
03:23 < dayid> ebooks are harder to earmark and underline in :p
03:24 < LaoGrue> ideally, both
03:25 < dayid> I have some kindle things on an old kindle and the search is very useful (as with PDF/epubs) but my memory is a lot better at "what I'm looking for is about 1/4 of a way through the book on a left-page that has a picture of <foo> on the upper corner of it"
03:26 < dayid> in general the MWL Networking for System Administrators is also a good refresher/read but more introductory.
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11:48 < jnth> hello, i'm new to openbsd. i am trying to install it on my pc and i would like to know the ideal disk size, root partition size. i wouldn't be installing much softwares except the ones provided in the repo and i don't intend to install everything i see and like. it shall be minimalistic distro.
11:48 < jnth> i have 250 gb to spare and i will also be running slackware alongside
11:49 < sibiria> you'll need at the very least 2gb in total. that's the smallest practical minimum, but won't allow you to install much stuff, and you may run into problems with system updates down the road
11:50 < sibiria> 3-4 gb is a safe number for everything pertaining to the base system itself, minus compiling parts of the system (or ports) yourself
11:51 < sibiria> gets a bit trickier if you want to divide the space into the recommended discrete file systems instead of tucking everything into /
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11:54 < jnth> alright then, i'll study about the file systems in openbsd and see how i can allocate the space in the best manner
11:55 < sonya> jinth: i'd say 20G-30G is where you'll be happy.. important: please make a separate (disklabel 'b') partition for swap (1.5x - 2x size of RAM), or suspend/sleep/resume will fail or will require manual adjustments
11:55 < sibiria> you'll need about 1.8 gb for /usr to be on the safe side. 500m for /. whatever you want for /usr/local (where your packages will be installed). those are the three important parts
11:56 < sonya> jnth, and yes, consider if you need separate 'altroot'.. 
11:56 < sibiria> same with /home, whatever you feel comfortable with
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11:57 < jnth> sonya: i have 16gb of ram, do i still need swap?
11:57 < sibiria> i'm on 7.3 and for me / uses 290mb and /usr 1.6gb. add some margin to that and you'll be fine
11:57 < sonya> hmm :))) actually, dump all into / is not a bad idea, especially when you suck torrents (serials)
11:57 < sonya> jnth, nope
11:58 < sonya> jnth, but suspend require swap to be separate partition
11:58 < jnth> hmm. okay
11:58 < sonya> if you wish to test suspend to disk - swap is must
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11:59 < sonya> suspend to ram should work, but i can't assure it will
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13:40 < betabug> don't make /usr/local too small, or you won't have fun playing with the appstore (aka "packages")
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15:02 < _marco> Hi :) Is anybody of you using nheko (matrix client) on OpenBSD? How can I configure microphone and camera to make video calls? 
15:03 < zelest> You might need to change permissions of /dev/video and make sure the sysctl's enable audio/video recording
15:03 < zelest> kern.audio.record=1 and kern.video.record=1
15:04 < _marco> Yes, I did that. It works in e.g. firefox.
15:05 < zelest> Oh.. then I'm sadly out of ideas :(/
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15:06 < _marco> zelest, thank you for your help.
15:07 < zelest> Wasn't much help though. :)
15:11 < Bradipo> I use the element Matrix client and it works.
15:12 < Bradipo> Don't recall trying nheko though...
15:13 < zelest> ^
15:13 < zelest> But then again, I don't use voice/video.
15:19 < samebchase> Hi, I'm having a frequent issue with audio playback on openbsd. Sound works for a bit and abruptly stops. Video playback works but there is no sound. Any pointers will be appreciated
15:20 < uwharrie> anything in dmesg? tried to run sndiod in the foreground with debugging on?
15:20 < _marco> Element Matrix client? It isn't in ports, how did you get it working?
15:21 < Bradipo> It's a web client.
15:22 < Bradipo> https://app.element.io/
15:22 < Bradipo> You can install it on your own host if you want though.
15:23 < _marco> Yes, sometimes I use it too. Because video calls work in the elements web client on firefox.
15:23 < samebchase> uwharrie: thanks, let me try that
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15:30 < samebchase> uwharrie: hmm, nothing suspicious looking when I did `sndiod -ddd` do you know of anything I can look for in that output. 
15:31 < samebchase> and still no sound...
15:31 < uwharrie> no, don't mess with audio much
15:32 < samebchase> https://gist.github.com/samebchase/dd176c7ea1fff8f122670c32080fd650
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15:32 < samebchase> this is the gist of the output, if anyone knows something I can try, will be great ☝️
15:32 < samebchase> np
15:33 < samebchase> I'm also following the steps given in the audio debugging part in https://www.openbsdhandbook.com/multimedia/
15:34 < samebchase> play.bytes is stuck at 0, so does that mean the DAC is not processing any data
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16:26 < welcome> HELO
16:26 < welcome> Most interesting httpd error messages:
16:26 < welcome> 504
16:26 < welcome> The request could not be satisfied
16:27 < welcome> Typical of a web server. Insatiable things they are
16:27 < thrig> can't get no satisfaction
16:27 < welcome> LOL
16:27 < betabug> web servers and Mick Jagger
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16:27 < welcome> I just discovered taht Rutger Hauer had passed
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16:28 < welcome> *that
16:28 < welcome> I am still reeling
16:29 < betabug> all these memories will be lost
16:29 < welcome> Like tears
16:29 < thrig> the tears can be fixed with an X config of...
16:29 < welcome> I put a tribute on my website
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17:06 < rafe> Hi all, I'm hoping to get a port patch committed. 
17:06 < rafe> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=168468935101110&w=2
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17:07 < rafe> This patch was submitted to update the port back in May. It's certainly stable. 
17:07 < rafe> But it was never committed. 
17:07 < uwharrie> you should ping the ports list again
17:07 < rafe> can do
17:07 < rafe> thanks!
17:08 < avemestr> Good idea to refer to the previous OK, I think, and of course make any changes needed for it to work on -current (if any).
17:08 < rafe> I can only speak to 7.4
17:09 < uwharrie> ports list primarily only cares about -current
17:12 < rafe> okay, good to know
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22:01 < zyxer> Hi, good evening
22:02 < ssm_> does anyone know if vmctl stop will gracefully shut down an alpine linux vm?
22:03 < ssm_> or for linux running under vmm(4) should I always halt inside the instance
22:03 < xse> it won't by default there's a module you need to install, it's packaged
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22:04  * zelest uses https://github.com/voutilad/virtio_vmmci, with some hacks
22:05 < zelest> Ah, the package is the same :)
22:05 < xse> that's it! there's also a package for the clock one
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22:19 < tercaL> Very interesting read; https://doc.dovecot.org/configuration_manual/system_calls_optimization/ and this; (referred from there) https://blog.packagecloud.io/set-environment-variable-save-thousands-of-system-calls/
22:19 < tercaL> I wonder if that's a valid fact for OpenBSD as well..
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22:27 < fro> does openbsd have a vDSO
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22:35 < martian67> fro: no
22:35 < fro> didn't think so
22:35 < fro> thank you
22:36 < Bradipo> If I have a daemon named xavier which an rc.d(8) script /etc/rc.d/xavier, and I want to increase the limits for that daemon, do I just add a section in /etc/login.conf for xavier?
22:37 < Bradipo> Will the rc.d(8) system pick it up?
22:37 < quinq> yes
22:37 < Bradipo> Ok, I just found it in the man page...
22:37 < quinq> :)
22:37 < Bradipo> It is set to "daemon" unless there is a login class configured in login.conf(5) with the same name as the rc.d script itself...
22:39 < quinq> yes
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23:04 < NewtonTrendy> whats the most secure way to run websites with javascript you dont trust?
23:04 < zyxer> I guess containerised browser
23:05 < NewtonTrendy> thanks, that makes sense
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23:05 < zyxer> So some chroot environment launch browser on openbsd
23:05 < NewtonTrendy> ok
23:06 < NewtonTrendy> do you know how to use netns to make a vps provider that is ipv6 cost but works on ipv4
23:06 < thrig> don't, or burner laptop
23:06 < NewtonTrendy> and two natted routers
23:06 < NewtonTrendy> with full honeypot network
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23:11 < zyxer> sshuttle can be used as VPN, and all it requires is that the host has ssh installed afaik
23:11 < zyxer> Can probs be used over IPv6 
23:13 < zyxer> Oh wait nvm I missunderstood. Get a VPS and then set it up to route traffic through it using ssh tunnels to your hardware and tadaaa, you can be VPS provider I guess
23:13 < zyxer> Or setup reverse ssh if the VPS is gonna be the entire hardware and not just some cores of your hardware
23:14 < zyxer> But the reverse SSH would need you to pay for a VPS middle man. But you can get cheapest since it is just to forward traffic over SSH
23:16 < pardis> what exactly is chroot going to do for a browser?
23:17 < pardis> NewtonTrendy: if you're looking for a "most secure" way, run them on a separate computer that does nothing else
23:17 < thrig> make it more annoying for you to save files and access devices and whatnot
23:17 < uwharrie> "protect" and "security"
23:18 < zyxer> Chroot to do for a browser? Containerise it, no?
23:18 < zyxer> Or am I missunderstanding how chroot works?
23:18 < pardis> I was looking for a technical answer rather than a buzzwordy one
23:18 < Bradipo> chroot prevents non-root accounts from being able to see outside the chroot.
23:19 < zyxer> Any javascript exploits would only affect the chroot environment, no? 
23:19 < uwharrie> so does unveil
23:19 < NewtonTrendy> pardis: this is good advice thank you, i just want to open multiple sites this way and would ideally like to refresh between each load
23:20 < NewtonTrendy> maybe a combination of containers and seperate box
23:20 < zyxer> Yes. But the browser uses system libraries, no? Can it not be exploited? 
23:20 < Bradipo> chroot definitely gives you more isolation, but at the cost of maintaining a chroot.
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23:21 < Bradipo> To make a browser work in the chroot, what do you have to have in the chroot directory?
23:21 < pardis> it doesn't even give you materially more isolation if you already have unveil, which is the case for both major browsers on OpenBSD
23:21 < NewtonTrendy> chroot works by creating a new filesystem for the kernel to run on for the command or soemthing right?
23:21 < zyxer> The question was safest, and unviel + chroot is more secure. I am personally gonna get rid of JS from browser altogether
23:21 < uwharrie> chroot is redundant when unveil is in use
23:21 < Bradipo> Some here are arguing that chroot isn't necessary because of unveil, not as chroot+unveil as you are suggesting.
23:22 < pardis> no, chroot gets you less security if done poorly because you then need to apply security patches in multiple places
23:22 < Bradipo> Precisely, the cost of maintaining the chroot.
23:22 < pardis> not to mention mess about with Xauthority and possibly grant things more permissions than they would otherwise have
23:22 < zyxer> pardis: You sure? Why are so many networking server things by default running in chroot then? If unviel is enough? Or maybe servers can be exploited in ways that makes sense to unviel and chroot? 
23:22 < NewtonTrendy> netowork namespacing seems like it overlaps with docker/podman etc and it could be used with chroot to make a host that works like openvz (overlapping resources) but without any virtualisation
23:23 < NewtonTrendy> (netns)
23:23 < pardis> many of those networking daemons were written before unveil existed
23:23 < zyxer> Ah, I see
23:23 < Bradipo> Well, also, to be fair, a daemon typically has fewer requirements to be in a chroot.
23:24 < Bradipo> A browser has a massive dependency list that would require all of that to be in the chroot.
23:24 < pardis> NewtonTrendy: network namespacing is a Linux thing, so not really topical here
23:24 < NewtonTrendy> oh :(
23:24 < uwharrie> and before daemon privsep, msgsnd(), msgrcv(), etc
23:24 < NewtonTrendy> sorry pardis 
23:25 < uwharrie> OpenBSD has rdomains which have some overlap
23:25 < NewtonTrendy> ah, i wonder, its probably easier to use and better documented
23:25 < Bradipo> rdomains isn't exactly easy to use...
23:25 < NewtonTrendy> probably still easier than working out how to use netns
23:25 < Bradipo> Even with the good documentation.
23:26 < Bradipo> It took me forever to figure out how to forward DNS traffic between rdomains... and in fact, it wasn't from reading the man pages, it was from an idea I got while reading the misc@ mailing list.
23:27 < pardis> it also isn't at all clear what the intended use case of rdomains is here
23:28 < pardis> if you want something container-like, you won't get it on OpenBSD
23:28 < pardis> rdomains do not hide the networking config of other rdomains, they simply prevent them from conflicting with each other
23:28 < pardis> nor do either rdomains *or* netns go any way to preventing users from seeing each other's processes, or killing them if they happen to share uids
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23:29 < pardis> moreover, there is no information provided about why any of the existing container tools (none of which run on OpenBSD, for good reason), with many thousands of human-hours of invested effort into squashing bugs, are unsuitable
23:29 < uwharrie> that's the pit of "containers aren't about security" vs "I want to run untrusted code from sketchy sources, I'll throw it in a container and wear my blinders"
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23:32 < zyxer> Yea, bad practices make containerising not help. A false sense of security in some cases 
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23:34 < zyxer> And wasn't containerising non-server software about making the software easy to deploy? Like, not needing to install all things that may or may not conflict with other system things, but if packed into container no conflicts and easy to deploy in production. Maybe different container things had different reasons for being made. 
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23:35 < Bradipo> I think containers just complicate things.
23:35 < Bradipo> Just my $0.02
23:38 < NewtonTrendy> pardis: you use them with chroot
23:40 < pardis> again, to what end?
23:40 < pardis> you're listing tools but not goals
23:40 < NewtonTrendy> they are not meant to isolate that, but if they dont isolate which network it uses it might not be it
23:40 < NewtonTrendy> i have many goals
23:40 < NewtonTrendy> but dont worry
23:40 < NewtonTrendy> im just thinking about a host that can provide a "my first server" where the shell guides you to install apache etc
23:40 < NewtonTrendy> and i wanted it to have like a $0.50c per month cost
23:40 < zyxer> Why not httpd? 
23:40 < pardis> installing a web server requires root privileges, and root can escape from both chroot and rdomain
23:40 < NewtonTrendy> to make it accessible in poorer econmies
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23:40 < zyxer> Ugh... doesn't a server cost more in just electricity ?
23:40 < NewtonTrendy> zyxer: im sorry maybe its leaking through i have a heavy linux history and simply want to use openbsd, i do mean httpd
23:40 < uwharrie> that's as simple as `pkg_add apache-httpd` although you don't even need that if you're serving simple content
23:41 < NewtonTrendy> my theory is that i could undercut most hosts by useing namespacing/rdomains and chroot without virtualisation
23:41 < pardis> but why?
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23:42 < NewtonTrendy> not just httpd, but like irc, wordpress, email with tutorials that you see in the terminal
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23:42 < pardis> if you're handing out privileges to escape from your paper walls, why put them there in the first place?
23:42 < NewtonTrendy> where did i indicate that i was doing that? are you talking to me?
23:42 < thrig> an irc client might be better with pledge and unveil than a chroot
23:42 < pardis> <pardis> installing a web server requires root privileges, and root can escape from both chroot and rdomain
23:43 < NewtonTrendy> this is about creating a simple vps in which people can set this up
23:43 < pardis> but you just said you weren't using virtualisation
23:43 < NewtonTrendy> maybe i should consider a charge of $0.50 for two days
23:44 < NewtonTrendy> pardis: where are you going with this, whats the significance of me using virt or not, and if im already doing it or not?
23:44 < uwharrie> not sure how the tech stack contributes anything to cost in the face of floor space, hardware, and energy consumption
23:45 < pardis> giving someone a VPS is very different from giving someone a root shell that can do anything they want on any of the other not-at-all-containers on the system
23:45 < NewtonTrendy> i was thinking, in theory, that if i used those tools and came up with a solution that can provide the *equivalent* of a vps (i get it now, this is the answer)
23:45 < pardis> but I've just explained twice why it's not the equivalent
23:46 < pardis> if you give someone root in a chroot+rdomain, they are 2 commands away from root on the "host" system
23:46 < pardis> it's not isolation at all in the way you want it to be
23:46 < NewtonTrendy> by equivalent i mean that you can log in using ssh and see a terminal and install apps like its a vps, im not sure where you explained this?
23:46 < NewtonTrendy> pardis: not if you remove the binary that does that
23:47 < NewtonTrendy> whats the chroot stripping and securing tool again
23:47 < pardis> so you want people to be able to install things but you expect that a binary being missing will stop them?
23:47 < pardis> this is a slightly-better-than-average troll, I guess
23:47 < NewtonTrendy> many traditional hosts back when people used ftp provided ssh using chroot
23:47 < NewtonTrendy> hmm
23:47 < NewtonTrendy> you clearly have a point
23:48 < NewtonTrendy> my learning is patchy, and this is an idea
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23:48 < Bradipo> The problem with chroot is that any root user inside the chroot can break it.
23:48 < Bradipo> So when you say you want people to login to the chroot and install things...
23:48 < NewtonTrendy> is this actually always true?
23:48 < Bradipo> Well, that implies that they are root.  And now because they are root, they can see everyone elses files.
23:49 < zyxer> What if the user is in the chroot and doesn't exist outside it? 
23:49 < Bradipo> Is it true that root can break the chroot?
23:50 < NewtonTrendy> there might be a way of securing it, virtual root or something app iirc
23:50 < Bradipo> You would have to provide an interface that you write yourself.
23:50 < zyxer> I think you are talking past eachother or I am missunderstanding at least one of you
23:50 < NewtonTrendy> root of a chroot is not root of a system, you can run a chroot in userspace
23:50 < pardis> and if you need randos on IRC to explain this, you probably aren't capable of writing one yourself
23:50 < Bradipo> They would use some "web thingy" for example, and given their credentials, you install something into their chroot on their behalf.
23:51 < pardis> NewtonTrendy: no, that is not accurate
23:51 < pardis> not on OpenBSD, anyway
23:51 -!- elastic_dog [~elastic_d@2a01:118f:620:5c00:ed7c:6283:1fd4:b8a4] has joined #openbsd
23:52 < NewtonTrendy> ok, im sorry but i dont appear to be making positive light conversation the way i hoped and i feel like because of misunderstandings i might step back now and come back another day
23:52 < NewtonTrendy> thanks for all your suggestions
23:52 < NewtonTrendy> and corrections
23:52 < Bradipo> VMM would probably be easier.
23:54 < zyxer> Yea
23:54 < uwharrie> and then you'd be competing with openbsd.amsterdam
23:54 < Bradipo> Nothing wrong with competition.
23:56 -!- kodcode_ [~kodcode@user/kodcode] has joined #openbsd
23:57 < uwharrie> they're operating at €0.17/$0.18/day, so no undercutting that if the expected rate is $0.25/day
23:57 < zyxer> It was $0.5/month
23:58 < zyxer> no?
23:58 < zyxer> I mean Newtons idea plans things
23:59 < uwharrie> < NewtonTrendy> maybe i should consider a charge of $0.50 for two days
23:59 < NewtonTrendy> https://lowendbox.com/blog/1-vps-1-usd-vps-per-month/
23:59 -!- kodcode [~kodcode@user/kodcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
--- Log closed Thu Nov 02 00:00:00 2023