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01:36 < armin> lester29: depends on how theoretically you want to look at it, if it doesn't run, then just as phy1729 said, it doesn't matter much.
01:37 < armin> of course we could go deeper and make wild assumptions from here, yes.
01:38 < lester29> so it's perfectly fine both for server and desktop to have openbsd full installation?
01:38 < lester29> i mean server especially
01:38 < armin> lester29: It happened to me one time that trying to install something on a server lead to an error because I chose to *not* install x* upon install or something? 
01:39 < armin> lester29: it could well happen, but that's absolutely not a huge problem and something you could easily fix.
01:39 < lester29> do you recommend to do full openbsd installation both on desktop and server?
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01:40 < armin> lester29: I personally don't, I want to get rid of as much as anyhow possible, I would at least *try* to exclude x*
01:40 < armin> lester29: But that's just me, the general consensus differs.
01:40 < lester29> is there a general consensus or is it just a matter of preference?
01:41 < armin> lester29: and that's fine, there's nothing wrong with having that stuff enabled by default I think.
01:41 < lester29> >lester29: and that's fine, there's nothing wrong... <- do you mean xenocara, compilers etc?
01:41 < armin> lester29: I noticed that a LOT OF people disagree with me on that one, and I don't think I'm the correct one here.
01:41 < oldlaptop> lester29: If you don't know exactly what you're doing, and exactly what the consequences are, you should install all the sets.
01:41 < armin> yes exactly.
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01:42 < armin> oldlaptop: +1
01:42 < lester29> sorry for repeating myself
01:42 < oldlaptop> In particular, many packages (more than you might think) need libraries or other files that are in xbase
01:42 < armin> WAYYYY more than you might think, yup. :)
01:43 < lester29> do you suggest installing all sets is fine for server?
01:43 < oldlaptop> Yes.
01:43 < armin> absolutely, it's a server.
01:43 < armin> you control what runs on it anyways, hopefully.
01:43 < oldlaptop> Both fine and strongly recommended, especially if you need to ask the question.
01:43 < lester29> meh ocd ;d
01:44 < armin> it's fine, yup, I personally don't, but I think I know what to do when stuff goes up in fire. :)
01:44 < armin> (I probably don't, but meh)
01:44 < armin> If you really want advise, install all sets unless you know why you would not want to.
01:45 < oldlaptop> Some years ago, when some things in /usr/games were still setuid, I could understand not installing that set. Now it's quite literally not worth the time it takes to deselect.
01:45 < armin> oldlaptop: I totally agree, I never had any issues installing all sets.
01:45 < oldlaptop> The X server had its setuid bit taken away some time ago too - IIRC that doesn't leave any setuid binaries outside the base set
01:45 < lester29> i assume openbsd is well maintained project, i love its approach to security
01:46 < lester29> openbsd gives working secure system
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01:46 < lester29> out of the box
01:46 < armin> lester29: the very last thing you'll hear from the openbsd people is an agreement on that. 
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01:46 < armin> lester29: but yea, i think a lot goes fine.
01:47 < lester29> openbsd is similar to slackware in my experience but with dependency resolution
01:47 < oldlaptop> Ah, xlock is setgid auth (makes sense, that one), and xterm is setgid utmp (which I'll admit doesn't jump out as obvious to me)
01:47 < oldlaptop> those don't seem particularly threatening, IMO (and realistically you are probably already in big trouble if an attacker is in a position to do something sneaky with either of those)
01:48 < xse> some partitions from the automated disk allocation thing may not be needed at all, which can be good for space on small servers, but i'd take all sets
01:48 < oldlaptop> and as for /usr/games (which people seem to complain about relatively often), I don't see any security relevance, and on amd64:
01:48 < oldlaptop> $ du -hs /usr/games  
01:48 < oldlaptop> 2.0M    /usr/games
01:49 < oldlaptop> again, I would say that is quite literally not worth the time it takes to deselect (or the time I've already spent yammering about it)
01:49 < armin> well on the VERY FIRST INSTALL, just accept the defaults. if you KNOW what the defaults do, okay, tweak them, but only if you know why tweaking them breaks stuff.
01:49 < oldlaptop> (using openbsd in a context where it would be worthwhile requires enough knowledge that you won't be asking questions like this)
01:49 < armin> the defaults in general JUST WORK (TM).
01:49 < oldlaptop> knobs are for knobs, etc
01:50 < armin> well the defaults of openbsd are fantastic, it's hard to end up in a situation that will not work.
01:50 < armin> you really need to try hard.
01:50 < oldlaptop> (the knob to deselect sets is going to get taken out one of these release cycles - it'll just take one too many people whining on misc@ about how sysupgrade installs all the sets)
01:50 < thrig> tedu and tedon't
01:50 < armin> oldlaptop: which is entirely fine with me
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01:51 < lester29> i think about installing openbsd on my librebooted thinkpad t400
01:53 < lester29> i looked also at hardenedbsd but it doesn't seems to me well maintained and documented
01:53 < lester29> i trust more openbsd devs
01:53 < lester29> i think i'll read the openbsd handbook first
01:54 < lester29> and accept everywhere defaults, and ofc modify only what i need
01:54 < lester29> if something goes wrong, i'll restore vm snapshot
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01:57 < armin> all operating systems suck, no matter what os you choose, you need to maintain your data. openbsd won't magically do that for your, either, no.
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01:59 < armin> it's somewhat okayish, but not what a lot of people expect, and i can understand that.
01:59 < lester29> especially windows ;d
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02:00 < lester29> i want to learn openbsd and i see openbsd has a nice handbook
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02:00 < oldlaptop> Documentation is certainly one of openbsd's strengths.
02:00 < ponycat> that handbook isn't official
02:00 < oldlaptop> That's a good point. Do you mean the *FAQ*, on openbsd.org?
02:01 < lester29> oldlaptop, yes
02:01 < oldlaptop> That's just as well then.
02:01 < lester29> ponycat, do you talk about https://www.openbsdhandbook.com ?
02:01 < ponycat> yeah, that's unofficial
02:01 < lester29> ponycat, do this unofficial handbook have a good content?
02:02 < ponycat> I do not know
02:02 < armin> the man-pages are somewhat great on openbsd, though, if there is one written you can be very sure it will be cool.
02:02  * oldlaptop would *strongly* advise consulting the real documentation *first*
02:02 < ponycat> yeah, what oldlaptop said
02:02 < oldlaptop> meaning the FAQ and manual pages
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02:03 < oldlaptop> Google (or $insert_search_engine_here) is the last resort, not the first
02:03 < armin> Yea man-pages on OpenBSD are generally really okayish.
02:04 < lester29> i see new installer has encryption option
02:04 < armin> yup thank to kl3 (Klemens)
02:04 < lester29> nice
02:04 < lester29> i must check if is it possible to encrypt openbsd with usb keyfile
02:05 < oldlaptop> That's an example right there of things you'll get led astray on by google
02:05 < oldlaptop> (most results for "openbsd full disk encryption" and the like will be about the old manual process)
02:05 < armin> i did the manual process with 7.3 because i didn't know it exists
02:06 < armin> (sorry, kl3!)
02:07 < armin> but i tried it and yes it's fine
02:08 < lester29> experimenting yourself is also a good way
02:08 < lester29> to learn obsd
02:08 < armin> yea but I really need to give respect to kl3 here, didn't spot anything I would change, at all
02:09 < armin> great work
02:11 < armin> learning openbsd, lol, how old does the average human get again?
02:11 < thrig> age = age + 1
02:12 < armin> I'll never understand OpenBSD 100%, I'm 43 now.
02:12 < sibiria> nobody can understand it 100%. not even the president of the galaxy
02:12 < armin> I still keep trying, but meh. :)
02:13 < ponycat> only big brain theo understands 100% of obsd
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02:14 < armin> But that's somehow the beauty of OpenBSD: the default installation will leave you with something you *can* understand if you want.
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02:15 < armin> It's possible to investigate everything without going completely lost.
02:15 < oldlaptop> that seems to be a really unappreciated property of software systems: ability for mere mortals to figure things out by reading the source code
02:16 < armin> Of course it's still difficult, it's not trivial, but at least it remains doable and the amounts of indirection are low enough.
02:16 < oldlaptop> OpenBSD has it, IMO Tcl has it, arguably CPython has it
02:16 < oldlaptop> gnu userland really doesn't
02:16 < armin> oldlaptop: I feel like suckless.org is somewhat in the spirit realm here.
02:16 < oldlaptop> (musl does, though)
02:17 < armin> I'm still on an eternal strike to reduce complexity if I anyhow can.
02:17 < armin> make stuff simple plz.
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02:23  * thrig adds complexity to code
02:24  * stdin links some rop's
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02:29 < thrig> eventually the script might produce something not terrible. https://thrig.me/tmp/out24.mp3
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03:50 < vortexx> lester29: apart from manpages and the FAQ, the other place for documentiation on your OpenBSD install is /usr/local/share/doc/pkg-readmes which will tell you (with copypaste examples) how to set up packages. It's sometimes overlooked but extremely useful, and I sometimes use it for other OSes as it's simple clear instructions
03:50 < vortexx> s/documentiation/documentation 
03:55 < vortexx> armin: thank you for admitting that your opinion isn't the consensus, dogma here is strong
03:56 < vortexx> because we've seen so many people fail
03:56 < vortexx> (and it's better they fail here and ask than go to misc@ and annoy the devs even more)
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05:55 < brocashelm> https://harelang.org/blog/2023-12-01-porting-hare-to-openbsd/
05:55 < brocashelm> interesting, never heard of hare
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05:58 < echelon> you’re the one that linked to it
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06:00 < echelon> how is it suitable for writing operating systems if it needs a runtime
06:02 < brocashelm> that was the first page i landed on; had a "look" around the site and now i'm perplexed by its inclusion
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09:26 < armin> vortexx: It depends on the problem at hand I think, some stuff is better on IRC, some stuff is better on a mailing list. Properly describing your problem will help the person trying to help you, no matter the medium.
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09:33 < lester29> is it necessary to execute syspatch before sysupgrade?
09:33 < armin> vortexx: I understand that helping people on IRC is a bit eaiser. :)
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12:34 < Filystyn> where do we have
12:34 < Filystyn> process list or something on obsd ?
12:35 < Filystyn> i mean on disk like proc 
12:35 < Filystyn> with used fds
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12:43 < byteskeptical> Filystyn: fstat | awk '{print $2":"$3}' | sort | uniq -c | sort
12:43 < jca> there is no procfs anymore
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12:48 < Filystyn> fstat is only way ?
12:48 < Filystyn> and in C ?
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12:50 < pardis> fstat is written in C, you can look at what it does
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12:51 < quinq> Like kvm_getfiles(3)
12:51 < Filystyn> k
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12:58 < Filystyn> thx
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14:48 < avemestr> Heh, Hetzner defaults to -current when one mounts a OpenBSD ISO on their Ampere Altra (arm64) offering.
14:48 < avemestr> So, I'm living on the edge. Some might call it a bit RISCy.
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14:52 < Lucas6023> makes some sense. At least 7.3-release didn't boot in their Amperes, and OpenBSD images doesn't tend to be the best maintained thing in cloud providers.
14:54 < sibiria> 7.4 fixed that, thankfully
14:55 < xse> iirc there's no ISOs for 7.4 arm64 only current
14:55 < sibiria> you boot the install image or the install kernel
14:56 < sibiria> there never were ISO images for arm64
14:56 < avemestr> Ah, that all explains it.
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15:01 < magnahelix> It's a pain when providers don't allow image / iso uploads and then maintain a list of truly outdated installers...
15:01 < sibiria> with hetzner you can thankfully upload your own
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15:04 < magnahelix> sibiria: damn. All I remember seeing was their own list.
15:04 < magnahelix> Unless something changed over two years.
15:05 < avemestr> And on their dedicated machines you can ask a dude to attach a USB to your machine with the image you want.
15:05 < sibiria> on all their systems you can upload and run your own "rescue" system
15:05 < sibiria> to write e.g. the install image to the boot drive, or the install kernel
15:06 < magnahelix> Ok, that makes more sense.
15:06 < sibiria> their rescue system provides you with a few gigs of storage and internet connectivity. from there you can pull in anything you want and arrange your boot drive content
15:07 < magnahelix> Indeed.
15:07 < avemestr> https://docs.hetzner.com/robot/dedicated-server/operating-systems/installing-custom-images/
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23:23 < seninha> Hi, I have ben working with a MSP430 experimenter board at $DAYJOB, and have ported a few software to work with it on OpenBSD: I have updated devel/mspdebug to the latest version (just bump version on Makefile) and ported devel/libmsp430 (a library that devel/mspdebug can optionally use). I am sending devel/mspdebug to @ports. But libmsp430 uses several different licenses; one of which (Texas Instruments' Text File License) looks suspiciously 
23:23 < seninha> incompatible with ports distribution.
23:23 < seninha> https://termbin.com/4rpp
23:23 < seninha> This file lists the licenses the library uses: IAR BSD, BSD-3-CLAUSE, TI TEXT FILE, MIT, and UNLICENSE
23:25 < op2> even if the license is incompatible with distributing the package, the port may still be imported, albeit with PERMIT_PACKAGES=<reason why it can't be packaged>
23:38 < seninha> op2: thanks. I'm going to send it to the mailing list too then
23:38 < seninha> > Redistribution and use in binary form, without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met: [...]
23:39 < seninha> Does it applies for distribution binaries compiled by anyone or only for binaries distriuted by Texas Instruments?
23:39 < seninha> s/distribution/distributing/
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--- Log closed Mon Dec 04 00:00:43 2023