--- Log opened Thu Dec 07 00:00:26 2023
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00:13 < jb1277976> lenny1337 is it your daily driver ?
00:14 < jb1277976> sheesh that t440p got a vga connector
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00:22 < jb1277976> How do i find my model number on openbsd ? dmicode something right ?
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00:23 < uwharrie> might be in dmesg(8)
00:23 < jb1277976> ok let me look
00:26 < quinq> t/14
00:26 < jb1277976> Thanks uwharrie bios0: Acer Aspire E5-57
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00:28 < jb1277976> dmesg didn't get it correct, its actually a Acer Aspire E 15 E5-575G-57D4 
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02:39 < lenny1337> jb1277976: i daily drive t440p as my secure & corebooted "desktop" and use the x270 as my portable machine
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03:24 < lac> lenny1337: my x270 ran so hot under openbsd i went back to my x230 for my portable machine, though there are several factors why i was likely to do that anyway 
03:25 < lenny1337> my x270 does run a bit hot under openbsd
03:25 < lac> it ran VERY hot 
03:25 < lenny1337> but i just run apm -L and don't use any browsers
03:25 < lenny1337> i think a recent update made it run less hot
03:26 < lac> i put arch on it and it ran surprisingly cool 
03:26 < lac> that's good to hear 
03:26 < lenny1337> even alpine linux ran hot on it
03:26 < lac> i have a hunch i could get it working better regardless
03:26 < lenny1337> not the best thermals for a thinkpad
03:26 < lac> but i left it a few states away 
03:26 < lac> so i cab't test until christmas
03:26 < lac> yeah they seem to have cut a lot of corners on that model
03:26 < lac> it's really sad 
03:27 < lenny1337> really is
03:27 < lenny1337> but it's tiny and a thinkpad so that's why i got it
03:27 < lenny1337> $180
03:27 < lac> mhmm
03:28 < lac> i love the keyboard too
03:28 < lac> very soft keys 
03:28 < lac> which coincidentally was literally the result of a design flaw
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03:28 < lac> one instance where cut corners did something likable 
03:29 < lenny1337> the keyboard is a bit too soft for my liking tbh
03:29 < lenny1337> my t440p & mechanical keyboard need a bit more force & it's so good
03:30 < lac> i like the sturdiness of the (liteon) t440p keyboard but the clackity sensation is a bit jarring for me when i switch back to it from the 7 row keyboards i mostly still use
03:30 < lac> i get used to the t440p when i main it, but i hardly main it unfortunately 
03:31 < lenny1337> what do you main now
03:33 < lac> my first thinkpad (x220) upgraded with only the needed parts from an x230 
03:34 < lac> mobo, lower chassis, screen bezel
03:34 < lac> i wanted a beater laptop with decent performance 
03:34 < lac> and it's been taking a beating so i'm glad i did
03:36 < lenny1337> the x220 and x230 look nice
03:36 < lenny1337> i haven't been able to find any good listings for them on ebay
03:37 < lac> i know that struggle well 
03:39 < lac> i intended to be on my w530 rn but i seemingly blew the backlight fuse by simply plugging in the LVDS to eDP adapter? and not because of how i handled it 
03:39 < lac> i was sent the wrong adapter it turned out 
03:39 < lac> then i couldn't afford to resolve that situation before moving 
03:40 < lenny1337> ah bummer
03:40 < lenny1337> the w series is huge
03:40 < lenny1337> my friend got a w540 not too long ago and it's real chonky
03:40 < jb1277976> amazing https://www.openbsd.org/innovations.html
03:41 < lac> i can't wait to get it working again 
03:41 < lac> 32G of ram and the i7-3630QM is still a serious monster 
03:42 < lenny1337> oh god the QM
03:42 < lenny1337> i was going to put a i7-4710MQ in my t440p awhile back but the thermals
03:42 < lenny1337> terrible
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03:45 < lac> that might be the exact one in my t440p lol 
03:46 < lac> i want to say 4700MQ but i'm not sure
03:46 < lac> i just got whatever was ~$20
03:47 < lac> it does run hot but my issue was with the dGPU
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03:52 < jb1277976> Just watched a youtube video on replacing the hdd with an ssd. remove 3 screws pop the back off and put in the ssd on the right side. never seen anything so simple
03:55 < lenny1337> lac: oh yours has a dgpu
03:55 < lenny1337> rip
03:55 < lenny1337> jb1277976: iirc the x200 just has to remove 1 screw to swap out the hdd
03:55 < lenny1337> greatest thinkpad
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03:59 < lac> lenny1337: mhmm i got a board without the dgpu for $16 but ironically that one came with the backlight fuse already blown lol
03:59 < lac> also yeah one screw for the x220/x230 HDD
04:00 < lac> i'm running off an SSD in that bay rn 
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04:00 < lac> got another SSD in the msata slot under the keyboard 
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04:01 < lenny1337> thinkpads have the capacity for so many ssds it's insane
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04:17 < il> More than 3?
04:19 < jb1277976> i was on the openbsd.org website right and was reading up on stuff and came back to the homepage and in the bottom left i saw this https://www.openbsd.org/images/rack2009.jpg is this the first openbsd server's ?
04:21 < mybalzitch> probably from back when it was hosted in theo's basement
04:21 < lenny1337> il: some
04:22 < lac> that's what i assumed as well
04:23 < lenny1337> x series i think is 2 max
04:23 < lenny1337> but t and w can have 3+
04:23 < jb1277976> lol i just noticed your nick mybalzitch :P
04:23 < lac> luckily two drives is enough for me 
04:25 < lac> i daily openbsd and like keeping it on a whole disk for peace of mind away from dualboot partitioning issues 
04:26 < lac> then i like having a linux install if for no other reason than to keep up with what linux is doing 
04:26 < lenny1337> i have openbsd on 1 ssd and xmr on the other for mine
04:26 < lac> then i just swap that one out for another on the rare occasions i want to mess with windows 
04:27 < lenny1337> jeez
04:27 < lenny1337> windows
04:27 < lac> yeah i rarely do that lol 
04:27 < lac> i have to push myself 
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04:29 < jb1277976> i have this mbp 16 inch here as my work horse and openbsd will be my main and will use the mbp for backup in case stuff dosen't go right. like right now im using it for my zoom calls on friday's
04:29 < lac> mhmm
04:30 < lac> there's a few routine use cases i switch over to my linux boot similarly 
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04:32 < lenny1337> i've forced myself to adapt to openbsd only and it's been real nice
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04:32 < il> lenny1337, what have you had to change?
04:32 < il> Assuming you came from linux
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04:33 < jb1277976> all i need and i will be there forever is a working webcam/sound/wifi thats waht everyone needs but if i have all that i'm good. now to get it working when you need it is another story
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04:34 < il> heh
04:34 < il> I can do without a webcam, but I think I'd need a mic and proper sound
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04:36 < lenny1337> il: honestly nothing much of value
04:36 < lenny1337> it's mostly just ecosystem changes
04:36 < lenny1337> and cutting off proprietary games was a big one
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04:39 < jb1277976> if i install 8gb ram chip replacing this 4g ram will dmesg and openbsd automtiacally update ?
04:40 < lenny1337> yes but if it's hotswapped ram then idk
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04:43 < jb1277976> hmm 
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04:44 < jb1277976> let me show you what it is https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01BIWKP58?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1
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04:46 < lenny1337> yea you don't need to do anything but swap it out
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04:54 < jb1277976> Sweet
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05:03 < bradd> Hi. using a thinkpad t510 w/ openbsd. can anyone recommend a 'quick' browser? firefox is too slow for my likings on this box
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05:17 < brocashelm> maybe seamonkey?
05:18 < brocashelm> list of available web browsers on openbsd here: https://openports.pl/cat/www
05:19 < bradd> thanks
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05:20 < brocashelm> np
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05:55 < andinus> is it possible to clone httpd cvs repo? (https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.sbin/httpd/) 
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06:29 < spo0n> there doesn't appear to be straight up copy of pihole for (open)bsd but I were wondering if similar projects exist? I am thinking of running BSD on pi as a project computer with the excuse / end goal of turning it into pihole and reverse proxy
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06:54 < Zyxer> It has that
06:54 < Zyxer> I did such a setup on router
06:55 < Zyxer> Well, except the reverse proxy, but that can be made as well, at worst using nginx
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06:58 < Zyxer> There are some different projects, I found some project where the guy copied piholes database and put it in block list using unbound. But it was hard to find, I'll see if I can find it in my history (and hope it is the correct one, I tried a few but best results was from one specifically)
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06:58 < IcePic> https://www.tumfatig.net/2019/blocking-ads-using-unbound8-on-openbsd/
06:59 < spo0n> just glad to hear that it is basically possible so I can move it a step forward on my procrastination ladder
07:00 < IcePic> another variant https://www.geoghegan.ca/unbound-adblock.html
07:01 < Zyxer> spo0n: Relateable
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07:02 < Zyxer> IcePic: You posted what I had in my history. 
07:03 < Zyxer> How did you get my history? Maybe OpenBSD is backdoored to IcePic
07:04 < spo0n> can't wait to break things due to some minute difference between shells
07:05 < IcePic> I am ze master of googling two words like "openbsd pihole" 
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07:07 < spo0n> in my defence I actually did that but the top results were few years old github repo which didn't pass the sniff test and few older forum convos asking about it with the consensus of "doesn't exist but can be build"
07:09 < IcePic> I did not intend in any way saying that you are bad at searching or anything, just chipped in that when it looked like I know a lot of things about random obsd stuff, it is actually just a quick google and sorting out irrelevant items
07:09 < Zyxer> Well, it is manual setup on OpenBSD, and the utilities don't progress so fast that last weeks syntax is outdated or anything. Even 5 year old guides usually work. And since one step is to download host list from a database that is kept updated well, yea
07:14 < Zyxer> IcePic: I tried the google. I have a skill issue that when I try to refind something I found long ago I never can. That's why I started going through my history.
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07:42 < meorly> i wonder if opnsense could be switched to openbsd
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07:45 < Zyxer> I have experience with OPNsense router and OpenBSD 
07:46 < Zyxer> OpenBSD router runs way way cooler
07:47 < Zyxer> And the setting things in OPNsense did not like my hardware. It did not expect me to have more than 2 NICs, and the guide to make multiple NICs running as LAN instead of not doing anything was really off
07:48 < Zyxer> one line in openBSD to make more NICs get internet and be treated as LANs, OPNsense required me to rewire the cables in step 6 or soemthing, and then 3 more steps to make more than one ethernet port work (APU, so not normal router with one NIC for LAN but 4 ports)
07:49 < Zyxer> If you can use openbsd as router it was much easier for me to configure than OPNsense. and yes I compare the OPNsense web GUI because if you only gonna use terminal then just run FreeBSD instead. The point is to have the web GUI/beginner friendly
07:49 < jb1277976> I just joined the mailing list and i found a thread that i can help the person. how do i reply to him and the mailing list ?
07:50 < jb1277976> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=170000121806506&w=2
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07:51 < meorly> Zyxer: opnsense has physical network interfaces conceptually separate from its own notion of interfaces, it always sets up 2 by default
07:51 < meorly> Zyxer: if you want more nics, you need to create an opnsense interface and assign it to a physical one
07:51 < Zyxer> I did, it was extra
07:51 < Zyxer> And then I assigned it
07:51 < Zyxer> But no internet
07:52 < Zyxer> Maybe skill issue on my part, but I went through the documentation 
07:52 < Zyxer> And all I found was that very hassle guide that bridged one NIC to the other
07:52 < meorly> need to explicitly set up nat and firewall rules on new interfaces
07:53 < Zyxer> OpenBSD had like 15 guides and all seemed to do the same thing, OPNsense guides on google where irrelevant or the bridge
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07:53 < Zyxer> I mean 15 guides as in 15 results on first search page
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08:10 < Zyxer> But OPNsense runs hotter anyway, I rather run OpenBSD and work it through the COM-port
08:10 < Zyxer> meorly: Where can I find info about that? 
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08:22 < meorly> Zyxer: about what specifically
08:23 < meorly> default opnsense configuration is like this: one interface assigned to wan, one to lan, traffic from lan to wan is allowed via nat, traffic from wan to lan is blocked, any subsequently added interface has no rules and thus all traffic is blocked by default
08:24 < meorly> you absolutely do not need to plug wires here and there, interface assignment can be changed in configuration at any point
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08:24 < meorly> as long as your physical hardware is supported that is
08:25 < meorly> if you're used to e.g. linux firewalling, bsd firewalls operate with different presumptions
08:26 < Zyxer> I am used to OpenBSD firewall
08:26 < Zyxer> I meant info on how to make another NIC on hardware make a LAN
08:26 < Zyxer> I really tried to find it, google and stuff, gave up after 2 days
08:26 < meorly> what do you mean "make a LAN"
08:27 < meorly> "LAN" in openbsd is not a special category, it's just a default install time configuration applied to an interface
08:27 < Zyxer> Like, 3 NICs, one WAN, 2 LAN, I had no internet on second NIC
08:27 < meorly> s/openbsd/opnsense
08:27 < Zyxer> I could make default install config LAN on ONE interface/NIC
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08:28 < meorly> so what you would do is 1) switch to manual NAT rule generation 2) add NAT rule for new interface 3) add firewall allow rule to new interface
08:28 < Zyxer> During setup it only allowed me to set any extra NIC as OPT
08:28 < Zyxer> Ok
08:28 < Zyxer> That sounds so easy
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08:28 < meorly> technically you can also take a bunch of your local LAN interfaces and join them into a group and then apply all the rules to the group
08:29 < meorly> or did you want those to act as a switch as well?
08:29 < Zyxer> I wanted them to be separated
08:29 < Zyxer> This is all I found last time I googled https://docs.opnsense.org/manual/how-tos/lan_bridge.html
08:29 < meorly> well yeah so in that case apply specific nat and firewall rules to each interface
08:30 < meorly> yes but you don't want a bridge
08:30 < Zyxer> Also found this but didn't work https://getmethegeek.com/blog/2022-04-25-opnsense-setup-multi-lan-dhcp-static-assignment-and-more-part-3/
08:31 < Zyxer> Yea, I mean, main issue is that googling leads to not good guides on it
08:31 < meorly> your other lan interfaces need an ip address, dhcp setup (presumably), firewall allow rules and nat rules
08:32 < Zyxer> Yes, that second link I send did dhcp setup for the interfaces
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08:32 < meorly> so what exactly do you mean by "doesnt work"
08:32 < Zyxer> And the opnsense manual doesn't have how to configure multiple NICs for use as LAN/separate LANs
08:32 < Zyxer> It gave no internet tothe second NIC
08:33 < meorly> it won't, until you put in NAT rules and firewall allow rules
08:33 < Zyxer> Yea, that was missing from the guides. 
08:33 < meorly>  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
08:33 < Zyxer> I would assume it autoconfigured NAT rules when you set more LANs
08:33 < Zyxer> Or, interfaces
08:33 < meorly> but again, it has no concept of "LAN"
08:34 < meorly> it's just a label for the default install time configuration, nothing more
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08:34 < Zyxer> Well, passing internet to the second NIC that was meant to be used for LAN
08:34 < meorly> yes, which is why you configure the second interface NAT and firewall rules
08:35 < meorly> you can't just say "It's LAN" because that doesnt mean anything to opnsense
08:35 < Zyxer> Yea, but if I need to do all that manually then I rather just run OpenBSD as router OS
08:35 < meorly> it's a 15 second job though
08:36 < Zyxer> Yea, 15 second job that I couldn't find any info about in 2 days of googling and looking at official docs
08:36 < meorly> actually im fairly sure opnsense documentation says in several places that by default all traffic is blocked, which is a sane way to preconfigure a firewall
08:36 < Zyxer> I would expect a guide in that docs page, Interfaces > Setup guides
08:38 < Zyxer> Yea I get that it blocks incomming traffic
08:39 < Zyxer> But my router doesn't have a switch, and OPNsense assumes that the routers it installs on has one NIC all LAN connections. Or, that is my assumption, since it would be weird to have a setup that only configures one single port for LAN
08:40 < Zyxer> Well, I use a secondary router as a switch (and I guess firewall to separate LANs) so all home devices had internet, but it was frustrating that I could not have internet on server and personal home devices
08:41 < Zyxer> Because the APUs have a dedicated NIC for all the RJ45 ports
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08:43 < meorly> does that have hardware bridge support
08:44 < Zyxer> I want them to succeed, but, now I have setup router and all dhcp rules and NAT and all that on OpenBSD, and I had issues with making OPNsense work on my multi NIC hardware
08:44 < Zyxer> Look here in their guide https://docs.opnsense.org/manual/interfaces.html
08:44 < Zyxer> Interface configuration, nothing about adding another interface to get internet
08:44 < Zyxer> Only tells you how to enable interface, but nothing about needing NAT rules or anything
08:45 < Zyxer> The APU routers? No idea. I don't want to bridge them anyway
08:46 < Zyxer> One interface connect to public server, the other to secondary router. Security issue to let the server talk to all the other things on my net
08:46 < Zyxer> If my server gets haxxored at least my desktop shouldn't get affected
08:47 < Zyxer> There is more info on making multi WAN using cellular tower connections than there is info on making multi LAN
08:48 < Zyxer> Easier to find info on configuring VLAN than to setup a second NIC for LAN behaviour
08:49 < meorly> yes, because multi-WAN setups require various special considerations, and LAN setups are trivial
08:49 < Zyxer> Well, not for me with multiple NICs for each RJ45 connector
08:50 < Zyxer> I really wanted to be able to set it up properly, then I could have bf go into web GUI for some port forward easy if I needed a new port when away
08:51 < Zyxer> https://teklager.se/sv/produkter/routers/apu6b4-open-source-router
08:51 < Zyxer> Fully open source router, or most open source I found, quality components, each network port being connected to a separate NIC
08:53 < Zyxer> No guide how to make OPNsense run on that. I can find guides to make 4 WAN ports for redundancy but no, at least not easy to find, how to make wifi interface and a physical port work as LAN
08:53 < Zyxer> If I had a cheap router with one NIC for multiple physical ports then OPNsense would "just werk" as Todd says
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09:00 < Zyxer> Like, what market is OPNsense trying to cover? What is their target audience? I dunno, I was under the impression it was more for lazy powerusers that value open source, and while it did sound easy to configure multiple interfaces as LAN, I couldn't find it. I dunno, but it feels like they should take that into consideration, since it is Open source hardware and software. Hardware that their
09:00 < Zyxer> target audience probs would like to just work after install, or at least be easy/straightforward. 
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09:01 < Zyxer> I want OPNsense to succeed, since young me had a hard time finding good firmware/OS for my cheap budget routers, and if it gains more popularity it would most likely be ported to more hardware. 
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09:01 < Zyxer> Or I just have a skill issue, also possible
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09:30 < meorly> I think you were confused by how opnsense configuration works
09:30 < meorly> interfaces are really just that, interfaces, there's no magic flag on them that says "this one is wan and this one is lan"
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10:11 < Zyxer> I set up dhcp as the guide told me, and I would assume auto NAT means autoconfigure NAT for the interfaces based on properties/flags. 
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10:12 < Zyxer> Still, absolutely their config might have been very different from what I am used to. Still no docs on how to setup multiple interfaces as LAN. 
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11:29 < spo0n> out of interest, anyone got experience running openbsd on desktop / laptop? I hear it is surprisingly usable and some meanie said devs actually do it unlike freebsd ppl who run mac though that sounds like few steps removed from "cuck license"
11:30 < pingpwn> spo0n: we were taking about this a few hours ago and apparently lots of people here love to run it on their thinkpads
11:30 < pingpwn> I'm very interested in trying it
11:30 < spo0n> >thinkpads, well that sounds about right :V
11:31 < spo0n> oh right, apparently the hardware support is bit spotty so if that's the case, I can definitelly see why you'd want a thinkpad
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11:31 < pingpwn> haha yup, now all I gotta do is find a 100 year old thinkpad next to the trash and upgrade it as much as humanly possible
11:31 < pingpwn> then slap openbsd on it
11:32 < pingpwn> yeah openbsd is a bit quirky with stuff like wifi or bluetooth right?
11:33 < spo0n> well it is security focused and those require some device specific code to work so I can definitelly see why that would be the case
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11:34 < pingpwn> still sounds insane to me that one of the most security-oriented OSes can still be ran on an iMacG3
11:35 < Zyxer> spo0n: I have had almost no hardware compatibility issue with open BSD except some wifi chips and a round touchpad
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11:35 < Zyxer> However, NVidia isn't supported 
11:36 < spo0n> I fail to see the issue with that /hj
11:36 < Zyxer> No idea about Intels GPUs, but AMD GPU I never had issue. Not tried the old cards that use the radeon package driver tho'
11:37 < Zyxer> pingpwn: No bluetooth support since the bluetooth has no maintainer
11:37 < Zyxer> I personally never use bluetooth (well, knowingly at least). 
11:37 < pingpwn> lmao "knowingly", that's true
11:38 < Zyxer> I have ran OpenBSD on modern gaming rigs and modern (but not gaming) laptops
11:38 < Zyxer> Also ran it on old hardware, and some inbetween. Biggest issue is new wifi chips. 
11:39 < Zyxer> OpenBSD devs write the open source wifi drivers by reverse engineering, or the manufacturers are nice and open source them. Both have happened
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11:40 < Zyxer> I think all open source wifi drivers that linux uses are ported from OpenBSD. But then again, most are proprietary
11:40 < pingpwn> how does one become an OpenBSD dev? this is probably a stupid question but I'm trying my luck anyways
11:42 < Zyxer> You mail Theo De Raadt and check the CSV things and try to push code or something
11:42 < pingpwn> oh-
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11:43 < Zyxer> Start with the CSV and push code
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11:44 < Zyxer> Here 
11:44 < Zyxer> https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq5.html#Diff
11:45 < rueda> People become devs only by invitation.  Don't email Theo!
11:45 < Zyxer> oh, it's called CVS
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11:54 < pardis> Zyxer: that's wrong on both counts
11:54 < pardis> most of Linux's wifi drivers do not come from OpenBSD
11:54 < pardis> and none of Linux's wifi drivers are proprietary
11:55 < spo0n> Zyxer I just disabled bluetooth on kernel side to get rid of an annoying error promp on startup (void linux)
11:55 < pardis> in fact, many OpenBSD wifi drivers were written using the Linux drivers as documentation for how to drive the hardware
11:55 < spo0n> didn't fix it but at least there's nomore bluetooth
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11:58 < spo0n> I have my issues with bsd, or mainly the licenses, and  while copyleft has argueably failed, I still feel iffy about the "just steal my code" licenses. thing is though, they both provide "another point of view" to unix and at least openBSD has done a ton of valuable work for whole tech world and especially the opensource, privacy and security crowd
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11:59 < spo0n> and some dare to claim the cool bits of void are just stolen from bsd though others downlay the connection so I've got no clue what is real
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12:05 < Zyxer> My bad, I meant firmware for wifi chips, not drivers, you are correct
12:05 < Zyxer> No blobs on wifi in OpenBSD :D
12:06 < Zyxer> wifi firmware*
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12:12 < Zyxer> This was news for me https://binarly.io/posts/The_Far_Reaching_Consequences_of_LogoFAIL/
12:12 < Zyxer> Bypass secure boot on UEFI systems
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12:23 < carson> LogoFAIL is bad and should obviously be fixed. On the other hand, I find it hard to get all worked up about any vulnerability whose exploit starts "First, become root"
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12:26 < meorly> Zyxer: i turn off auto nat the first time i configure the box
12:26 < meorly> spo0n: I am on a t470 right now
12:26 < meorly> my daily driver work laptop
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13:22 < notHorseface> good day, patrons.
13:22 < notHorseface> could somebody please let me know about whether there is a package available in the official repositories for to provide ipfs..?
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13:32 < sonya> notHorseface, check "kubo" in ports (seems that it's not packaged)
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16:19 < Zyxer> Ok so uh... Friendly reminding: Could I run OpenBSD on 16MB RAM or should I try to hunt down 16 more and max it out at around 32-42MB RAM? I have gained access to a PCMCIA card that does wifi. I think it maxes out at around 10mbit/s or something, and I will soon get DB9 serial cables so I can transfer drivers and stuff. But my bet is that it may not have drivers for OpenBSD and I should stay on
16:19 < masetrax> exit
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16:19 < Zyxer> Windows 3.1
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16:20 < sonya> Zyxer, 3.11 for workgroups then
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16:20 < IcePic> Zyxer: you can't finish the i386 installation with less than 20-something MB of ram
16:21 < IcePic> I tried with VMs a long while ago, and that seems to be the low limit
16:21 < IcePic> I guess amd64 eats some more
16:21 < Zyxer> What if I install on the disk on another computer?
16:21 < pardis> Zyxer: that is also incorrect, OpenBSD ships with closed-source firmware in base
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16:21 < Zyxer> Wat
16:22 < Zyxer> I was under the impression base had no blobs. 
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16:23 < Zyxer> At least not wifi related ones
16:23 < pardis> the word "blob" means something different in GNUland and BSDland
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16:23 < Zyxer> Oh right
16:23 < Zyxer> I forgot
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16:23 < pardis> in BSD, a blob is a binary driver, in GNU it refers to binary firmware (because Linux has no binary drivers anyway thanks to the GPL)
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16:24 < sonya> $ pkglocate /etc/firmware/ | grep base
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16:24 < sonya> 81 lines
16:24 < IcePic> pardis: the "no binary drivers" sounds weird, nvidia gfx is a very obvious example of that
16:25 < pardis> I meant in Linux itself, not third-party drivers
16:25 < pardis> compare with FreeBSD which (afaik) ships some proprietary drivers in base
16:26 < pardis> sonya: not everything in /etc/firmware is closed-source either, bear in mind
16:26 < pardis> but certainly some is
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16:26 < sonya> + licence files
16:26 < Zyxer> "The OpenBSD project has a notable policy of not only not accepting any binary device drivers into its source tree, but also officially not supporting any third-party proprietary device driver components on its platform, either"
16:27 < sonya> $ pkglocate /etc/firmware/ | grep base | awk -F\: '{ print $2 }' | grep -v license | wc
16:27 < sonya> 61 lines
16:28 < Zyxer> Ok so no closed source drivers in base
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16:29 < Zyxer> But, even in FSF definition they allow binary blobs as long as it is embedded in the hardware. But this is an entirely different discussion
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16:31 < Zyxer> But, could OpenBSD run in 16mb RAM? It is 32 bit. Old old laptop, and even if I can't install on the device, I can take out drive and install on another. 
16:33 < sibiria> if you disable a lot of basic stuff, MAYBE
16:34 < sibiria> you will have to forfeit kernel and application relinking, for example
16:34 < Zyxer> Yea I planned to do that. The CPU is so weak it is passively cooled. from the 1995
16:35 < Zyxer> I think the /dev/urandom on that thing uses a geiger tube or something
16:35 < sibiria> the kernel allocates an unusally large chunk of "private" space for itself, too. far larger than what linux does
16:35 < sibiria> and i'm uncertain if it's entirely percentual or a fixed minimum with dynamic extra on top
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16:36 < sibiria> on a 1 gb system it's something staggering, close to 100 mb
16:36 < Zyxer> Ok, Windows 3.1 or perhaps, if I don't skip legday NetBSD. Or I guess KollibriOS 
16:36 < thrig> bet you could find a forth to fit in 16mb
16:37 < sibiria> can probably fit two of them in there
16:37 < Zyxer> Yea I am getting an IDE to mSATA adapter, with SATA to PATA chip as well
16:38 < Zyxer> Original drive is 800mb. New drive will be minimum 256GB (I can't find lower GB on mSATA drive here)
16:38 < sibiria> on my 4 GB system (which boots up with 3920 MB free to use) the kernel takes 136 MB for itself
16:39 < carson> There was a thread on the mailing list back in 2021 that 6.9 would kernel panic with only 64 MB. Can't imagine it's gotten less hungry in the interim. https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=162630024602646&w=2
16:39 < carson> Oh, excuse me, I misread, 80MB
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16:40 < sibiria> on my 1 GB system, booting up with 1008 MB free to use, the kernel takes 92 MB
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17:34 < jb1277976> How do I find my internal wifi chipset?
17:35 < jb1277976> Don't want to use this dongle anymore it sticks out 
17:35 < thrig> open up the case, and then look for ...
17:36 < jb1277976> 0_o
17:36 < ssm_> put your dongle away this instant!
17:36 < sibiria> boot any linux live thing. it's sure to recognize it, if openbsd does not
17:37 < jb1277976> I think it's atheros 
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17:48 < jb1277976> BSD hardware says it's not supported 
17:49 < thrig> usb stick time
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17:57 < jb1277976> Yep
17:57 < avemestr> Stick it to the man!
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19:23 < jb1277976> is chromium the best way to get zoom ? i got a zoom meeting tomorrow with my cousenlor. i got everything working so far
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19:32 < topcat001> I usually run Zoom and Teams from Chrome
19:32 < jb1277976> ok
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19:33 < jb1277976> topcat001 on openbsd or chromium ?
19:33 < topcat001> There are no apps on openbsd, and they are terrible on other platforms
19:33 < topcat001> Chromium + openbsd, and also on Linux.
19:34 < topcat001> As long as your mic and video work in chrome it will work.
19:34 < jb1277976> aw i have debian on this chromebook next to me. i will try chormium on openbsd. i want one laptop to be my main
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19:34 < topcat001> Please test the audio and video setup in Zoom before the meeting.
19:35 < jb1277976> I will you can do a test zoom call anytime. i'm going to do it after chromium installs
19:36 < spo0n> I bet the native zoom app is just a gutted browser anyways
19:41 < byteskeptical> not so gutted but yes
19:42 < spo0n> I love electron, I love bloat
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19:48 < jb1277976> hmm.. zoom taking forever to load glad i'm getting these ram chips tomorrow and saturday
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19:55 < topcat001> yes all electron based
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20:19 < aaronm04> jb1277976: you can also try the Iridium package
20:20 < aaronm04> it's a de-googled chromium that seems to be on top of security updates so far
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20:30 < Bradipo> In /etc/login.conf I see :requirehome@: but the meaning of @ is not documented in login.conf(5)... anyone know of the top of their head what it means?
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20:31 < Bradipo> Hmm, seems to be documented in cgetent(3).
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20:58 < jb1277976> Thanks aaronm04 my ram is to low. i will use my mbp tomorrow then once i install the ram i will use zoom
20:59 < aaronm04> Aw ok. Even with nothing else running on the system?
20:59 < aaronm04> Even a minimal window manager
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21:01 < Bradipo> Is there any package in OpenBSD that supplies libldap_r?
21:03 < ssm_> Bradipo: don't think so, but for future reference `pkg_locate libldap_r`
21:03 < ssm_> assuming it's a file
21:03 < Bradipo> Well, likely it's going to be more than just libldap_r...
21:04 < Bradipo> Probably libldap_r.so.something.
21:04 < Bradipo> I had hoped that openldap-client would have it.
21:04 < ssm_> pkg_locate will match partial strings
21:05 < Bradipo> I did try pkg_info -Q...
21:05 < Bradipo> Though, I suppose that's matching on packages, not files in packages.
21:05 < IcePic> are you sure you require the _r version of the lib?
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21:05 < ssm_> there's a libldap library in openldap-client, but no _r version
21:05 < IcePic> https://www.openldap.org/lists/openldap-devel/201903/msg00006.html seems to indicate they are interchangeable
21:05 < Bradipo> Well, that's what pip install python-ldap is claiming.
21:06 < uwharrie> could look at what py3-ldap does
21:06 < Bradipo> Hmm, I wonder if it's just a symbolic link...
21:07 < Bradipo> Right.
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21:10 < Bradipo> Haha, a symbolic link seems to have done it.
21:10 < Bradipo> Now, does it work? :-)
21:11 < Bradipo> I could figure out what py3-ldap was doing.  I looked at the Makefile and didn't see anything obvious.
21:11 < Bradipo> s/could/could not/
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21:15 < uwharrie> Bradipo: http://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/ports/databases/py-ldap0/patches/patch-setup_cfg?rev=1.1&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
21:16 < Bradipo> uwharrie: Ahh, I didn't think to look at patches...
21:16 < Bradipo> Yes, maybe I should just go that route.
21:16 < Bradipo> The symbolic link worked, certainly, but this seems cleaner.
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21:29 < jb1277976> need some help im understanding fdsik right when i do newfs_msdos for a usb stick why would i do example newfs_msdos /dev/rwd0i i thought i do the raw device rwd0 how would i know what partion to put on it
21:29 < jb1277976> kinda confusing to me
21:30 < Bradipo> uwharrie: Yeah, I just fixed setup.cfg and now it builds fine.
21:31 < Bradipo> jb1277976: You have to know which partition to put it on and you can figure it out with disklabel wd0
21:31 < uwharrie> windows doesn't support not having a partition table
21:31 < Bradipo> By default, I think OpenBSD maps MSDOS partitions to .i
21:31 < jb1277976> yea i always see it on i
21:32 < jb1277976> let me go test on this usb. i love this documentation on openbsd lots of reading
21:34 < jb1277976> so i just plugged in a usb right its fat32. disklable shows it and it has c and i i is the msdos parition and c is unused
21:34 < uwharrie> .c represents the entire disk
21:35 < jb1277976> aw
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21:56 < jb1277976> is it normal for a newfs_msdos -F 32 to take at least 3 mins to format ? i think its been 10 mins ?
21:57 < mischief> how fast is your disk
21:57 < jb1277976> probably slow. its done now
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22:34 < ssm_> newfs_msdos takes forever
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22:36 < lac> that's an openbsd guarantee
22:38 < ssm_> not true, ffs2 formats VERY fast
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23:21 < jb1277976> Lol
23:22 < jb1277976> If I didn't interact with Mac's and windows I would make these flash drives openbsd format ffs right?
23:23 < ssm_> I mean, if you don't need linux compat, sure
23:23 < ssm_> maybe macos can mount ext2fs?
23:23 < ssm_> that'd be better than using fat
23:24 < jb1277976> ssm_ how about the windows computer ?
23:24 < ssm_> use dd if=/dev/zero to overwrite the malware
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23:25 < ssm_> openbsd can mount ntfs read-only
23:27 < Bradipo> I wish OpenBSD could mount xfat natively without going through fuse (or whatever it is).
23:30 < brocashelm> file storage is currently one of the things that keep me stuck on linux... for now
23:30 < brocashelm> nearly everything else is great about openbsd
23:31 < brocashelm> the lack of ext4 support means i have to format all my usbs to fat32 (which i dislike) in order for hotplugd to mount them
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23:32 < brocashelm> and a lack of a graphical partition manager like gparted to simplify things
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23:38 < Bradipo> File storage (whatever that might mean) isn't enough to keep me away from OpenBSD.
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23:41 < aaronm04> Bradipo: I agree about exfat. It's the number one filesystem I'd want added to the kernel
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23:43 < vortexx> there's been a thirdparty ext2fs driver for Windows for the past 20+ years
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23:45 < aaronm04> yeah so you can either go third party on Windows or on OpenBSD. I think the latter is easier
23:46 < vortexx> looks like there's a couple of ext2fs implementations for Mac too
23:46 < vortexx> (probably not for Apple Silicon though)
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23:53 < vortexx> but in the end, sneakernet sucks, just do a SMB/NFS share between all devices if you really need to copy stuff across
23:54 < vortexx> (and for multiboot, ext2fs as a transfer partition works)
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23:57 < thrig> I scp rsync or git stuff. smb/nfs is usually a pain
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--- Log closed Fri Dec 08 00:00:49 2023