--- Log opened Sat Dec 16 00:00:00 2023
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00:00 < meena> (the best locale, according to Danish people)
00:02 < metavoid> skåne_DK.UTF-8
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00:18 < meena> so, here's the current status: https://codeberg.org/meena/openbsd-ports/src/branch/add/cloud-init/sysutils/cloud-init vs what I have in FreeBSD: https://codeberg.org/FreeBSD/freebsd-ports/src/branch/main/net/cloud-init-devel . missing: @sample config, which for some reason isn't installing, and uh… a pkg-msg equivalent? explaining how to make it
00:18 < meena> go
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00:24 < meena> @ me here, or on fedi: https://cathode.church/@meena/111580975833607915 with feedback, — i'm going to sleep now
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00:26 < SNAX_74> Question when OPENBSD goes blank after syspatch -u is that normal
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00:29 < metavoid> SNAX_74: there is no -u flag
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00:41 < SNAX_74> metavoid, maybe I typed syspatch -a
00:42 < thrig> ...
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00:45 < metavoid> maybe you just closed your eyelids
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00:49 < SNAX_74> I was working off of this document to try and speed up my openbsd on a laptop - > https://www.c0ffee.net/blog/openbsd-on-a-laptop
00:49 < SNAX_74> so far some of the suggestions worked
00:49 < thrig> 6.4 is a little bit out of date
00:51 < SNAX_74> Most of the document is still relevant though
00:52 < SNAX_74> I am running it on a Thinkpad too 
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01:50 < brocashelm> what are some good books to read?
01:50 < dfdx> Absolute OpenBSD
01:50 < brocashelm> i found a used copy of absolute openbsd (2003) and i'm learning lots from it
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01:51 < Zyxer> The second edition is much newer
01:51 < Zyxer> But I am waiting for the third edition 
01:51 < dfdx> I agree, the second edition is a good resource.
01:51 < brocashelm> pricier, though
01:51 < brocashelm> but i'll look forward to the third edition
01:52 < thrig> maybe it should be the -3 absolute edition
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01:53 < brocashelm> i noticed a couple of things lacking here that we already know about today, like with fw_update, doas, and sysupgrade (at least from checking the index)
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01:53 < brocashelm> perhaps some other changes that would contradict the first edition?
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01:56 < Zyxer> pf has changed it's syntax since then iirc
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02:08 < jrmu> I got the second edition, so far about 30 pages through
02:09 < jrmu> a lot of the info seems to be covered in OpenBSD's FAQ
02:09 < jrmu> Well written, though. Hopefully the next parts will cover some things not present in the FAQ
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02:44 < codermattie> for tool like books for operating systems commands and such I always get digital versions because they go stale in two or three years
02:44 < codermattie> no sense in wasting all that paper
02:45 < codermattie> For fundamentals that never grow old I use paper
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02:58 < jrmu> epony: can you send me a message
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03:10 < brocashelm> i like the physical aspects, plus i'd like to catch up on documentation if i'm not at home or don't feel like sitting in front of a computer
03:10 < brocashelm> i disagree on that being a "waste" of paper
03:11 < brocashelm> information being accessible beyond 0s and 1s is always a plus
03:11 < brocashelm> and so much stuff gets shut down over the years that it makes it more difficult to locate information
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04:20 < tozhu> hello, how to IPoE for OpenBSD, is there any examples or docs? does it support IPoE for OpenBSD ? 
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06:08 < Reinhilde> I know your kind. You are... a waste of oxygen and carbon.
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08:12 < metavoid> How do you search for "st" using pkg_info -Q? :)
08:13 < metavoid> not even st-0.9p0 is searchable
08:13 < metavoid> wonder if its because of the two letter name or something else
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08:18 < metavoid> also not st-0.9p0-scrollback
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08:21 < lts> metavoid: pkg_info -a -Q st
08:23 < metavoid> lts: wow, thanks :) the manual section for "-a" doesn't really make sense to me, but its working
08:24 < lts> The -Q part of man explains (a bit) more
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08:25 < metavoid> hmm yes, but still can't figure out why its helping out finding "st" that way
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08:48 < metavoid> seems no two letter packages are searchable..hm..gotta dive into the secret source
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08:52 < avemestr> meena: Why not da_DK.UTF-8?
08:54 < meena> avemestr: because i don't speak Danish
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08:57 < avemestr> Okay. I'm not sure what poll was conducted to conclude that "en_DK.UTF-8 is the best locale according to Danish people", since most of them probably do speak Danish.
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11:31 < tozhu> is anyone know how to config IPoE using OpenBSD? does it support IPoE ?
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11:44 < IcePic> ip over ethernet? =)
11:44 < fifihyperbola> =)
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11:59 < myappie> The nvidia drivers for openbsd wasn't going too well tbh
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11:59 < myappie> but then i found https://github.com/BoxcarsAI/boxcars
12:00 < myappie> and can finally relax knowing that it's definitely gonna happen
12:00 < myappie> langchain was... what a messs
12:01 < avemestr> For an undefined value of "happen".
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12:09 < myappie> well if you knew what i already have
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12:09 < myappie> one can get quite far using chatgpt alone
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12:17 < avemestr> :q!
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12:24 < myappie> imagine all the good times that'll come out of it
12:25 < myappie> we'll get a ton of new users
12:25 < myappie> pro & amateur
12:26 < myappie> and we could even create our own GPU brand for use in an AI supercomputer
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12:30 < fifihyperbola> help why do I see this when I try to run httpd
12:30 < fifihyperbola> etc/rc.d/httpd: need -f to force start since httpd_flags=NO
12:31 < avemestr> fifihyperbola: Because rc.conf says "httpd_flags=NO".
12:31 < fifihyperbola> right
12:31 < avemestr> fifihyperbola: Override it in /etc/rc.conf.local.
12:31 < fifihyperbola> ok fair enough lol
12:31 < fifihyperbola> ok tnx :)
12:32 < avemestr> fifihyperbola: So in /etc/rc.conf.local you can add this line: httpd_flags=""
12:32 < fifihyperbola> ok I fixed it, tnx :)
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12:42 < metavoid> avemestr: why edit it manually?
12:42 < metavoid> rcctl enable httpd
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12:48 < fifihyperbola> yeah i fixed it, thanks :)
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12:56 < fifihyperbola> ok now I have a different problem, I have configured httpd and tls but when I try to access website with https it just shows performing tls handshake all the time, but won't connect
12:56 < fifihyperbola> I have generated certs using acme
12:56 < fifihyperbola> so all I get is secure connection failed hmm
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12:59 < fifihyperbola> maybe it's because certs expired or somehting, I need to have a look
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13:08 < tozhu> IcePic: Yes, IPoE is IP over Ether, but it is different PPPoE
13:08 < lemontree> fifihyperbola: increase debug log level, i think for cases like that there are precise error messages. such things are better to help with compared to general "doesn't work" descriptions
13:08 < fifihyperbola> ok
13:08 < fifihyperbola> where can I find logs
13:08 < lemontree> fifihyperbola: don't know how to make httpd show more infos about tls and such, but i am sure there are stuff
13:08 < fifihyperbola> ok
13:09 < lemontree> fifihyperbola: its documented somewhere and i don't remember the path, but you can find it
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13:09 < fifihyperbola> okay I will find it, cheers :)
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13:20 < avemestr> httpd -vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
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13:20 < sibiria> yeah!!!
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13:24 < fifihyperbola> I cannot see anything
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14:02 < pardis> it seems like the most productive way to solve this problem is to keep guessing
14:02 < pardis> definitely don't show us your config, whatever you do
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14:42 < eau> ahah shit the snapshots are pretty much broken real good, I read the warning too late before upgrading snapshots..
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14:42 < magnahelix> Snapshots can be hit and miss unfortunately. :/
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14:45 < avemestr> You take a shot and think "oh, snap!"
14:47 < eau> the syscall(2) and pinsyscall(2) changes
14:47 < eau> syscall(2) removal IIRC
14:47 < magnahelix> avemestr: hah. ;P
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14:48 < magnahelix> Down the hatch and install the snapshot for the lulz.
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14:51 < eau> magnahelix: you're doing it ? :)
14:51 < magnahelix> In a virtual machine I'd see what happens.
14:51 < magnahelix> Not something I'd pull with a box or a vm that's in use.
14:52 < eau> hesitating to rollback to a release
14:52 < eau> and wait there..
14:52 < sibiria> you knew what you were getting into!!!
14:52 < eau> yup
14:52 < sibiria> "snapshots! sounds like fun. it will be educational. *butters*"
14:52 < eau> i literally read de raadt warning in the ml as the upgrade was happening
14:52 < eau> after upgrading everything
14:53 < eau> no more firefox, many tool segfault with an msyscall error
14:53 < eau> funny to watch although all the basics still run
14:57 < sibiria> you don't need the modern web anyway
14:57 < sibiria> if richard stallman can survive without it, so can you
14:57 < sibiria> lynx builds character
15:00 < byteskeptical> been fixed now
15:01 < byteskeptical> not everything but some of the larger packages are being rebuilt like the fox
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15:05 < byteskeptical> I personally enjoyed all the Killed messages for every command I ran for several versions
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15:10 < eau> byteskeptical: it's still dead for me, firefox dies but with something different now
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15:15 < ivdsangen> some packages are broken indeed, irssi was, but after building from ports works again
15:15 < byteskeptical> hmmm and you pkg_add -u rather recently? what snap version are you on? you can get it to work with `doas ln -s libc.so.98.0 libc.so.97.1`
15:16 < byteskeptical> just have to remember to remove the symlink later
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15:17 < ivdsangen> im running dec 15th snaphot and i ran pkg_add -u today with no changes
15:17 < byteskeptical> ids1024: iname -a what's the number?
15:17 < byteskeptical> after GENERIC.MP
15:18 < byteskeptical> ivdsangen: I meant you sorry ids1024 
15:18 < ivdsangen> 1523
15:20 < byteskeptical> interesting and firefox package firefox-120.0.1p0? it updated for me rather recently but I've also been building from ports prior to the last install
15:23 < ivdsangen> firefox throws an error containing 'wayland'
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15:48 < byteskeptical> that's strange I thought landry pushed a fix to that
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17:18 < armin> ivdsangen: irssi is fine for me since a couple of years now.
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17:19 < armin> ivdsangen: but then again, it could WELL be that some bug is hunting not everyone. :)
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17:25 < avemestr> armin: I think they're referring to the syscall change in -current that made life difficult for quite a lot of software.
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17:42 < armin> avemestr: Okay, looks like I'm not facing that one (yet!?).
17:44 < ivdsangen> could be, its a recent change in snapshots
17:44 < armin> ty.
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18:50 < Bradipo> This has to be a FAQ but I don't see it... how do I use fonts once they are installed?
18:50 < Bradipo> e.g. having just installed freefont-ttf package.
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18:51 < Bradipo> The old method was to update xorg.conf with a FontPath... but now that there no longer exists that file, it seems there must be an alternative mechanism.
18:52 < vortexx> Bradipo: you can create an xorg.conf file in /etc/X11/ and it will be loaded at start
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18:53 < vortexx> as for adding fonts I don't remember how that works, haven't done it in over a decade
18:53 < ivdsangen> for terminal fonts i use .Xresources
18:54 < Bradipo> https://man.openbsd.org/fonts.conf.5
18:55 < Bradipo> vortexx: Absolutely it could be done by generating an xorg.conf file... but that means crafting the xorg.conf file.
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18:55 < apotheon> Bradipo: The common replacement for the xorg.conf file now is xorg.conf.d/ files.
18:56 < Bradipo> Right, but again, just because it can be done that way doesn't mean that's the prefered mechanism for doing so.
18:56 < Bradipo> Perhaps fonts.conf(5) is the way to go.
18:57 < thrig> I have a xset +fp ~/.fonts in .xsession from who knows when
18:57 < Lucas6023> Bradipo: `pkg_add` usually takes care of making the fonts usable OOB, at least for the non-raster ones
18:57 < apotheon> Like I tend to use ~/.Xdefaults for fonts.  I mostly reserve ~/.Xresources for color settings.
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18:57 < Lucas6023> in which way your new fonts aren't usable?
18:58 < Lucas6023> if it's by a running program, that can be the case, as the list of available fonts are usually cached on startup
18:58 < Bradipo> Well, that can be adjusted with xset +fp after startup, right?
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19:19 < avemestr> apotheon: Is that some common way to separate things? Most places seems to place things in those files "at random", so I've wondered if there's some convention on what goes where.
19:21 < apotheon> I don't think my practice matches the most common convention.
19:21 < apotheon> My impression is that people generally regard .Xresources as a replacement for .Xdefaults.
19:22 < apotheon> I want more than one file, though, to segregate the configuration options I'm using, because of the mass of color choices I have specified.
19:22 < avemestr> All 256?
19:23 < Bradipo> I've only ever used .Xdefaults
19:23 < apotheon> avemestr: no
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19:23 < apotheon> Bradipo: I think a lot of people never bothered to change .Xdefaults usage.
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19:24 < apotheon> . . . and it's probably mostly people who were using .Xdefaults "back in the day" who would bother touching a dotfile for such purposes at all these days, so probably most people who use those files use .Xdefaults . . .
19:25 < apotheon> thus, inertia/comfort results in probably a lot of users of these files sticking to .Xdefaults
19:25 < apotheon> That's my guess, anyway.
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19:26 < apotheon> By the time .Xresources seemed to become a thing, most new people to X were just using GUI tools to manage color defaults and so on.
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19:36 < Lucas6023> I think that X Toolkit interfaces, Xt*, reads from ~/.Xdefaults by default. .Xresources isn't really read, but used to populate the X Resources DataBase aka XRDB aka Xrdb* interfaces.
19:37 < Lucas6023> in particular, there are programs that can only get their information from XRDB
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19:38 < apotheon> Yeah, somewhere along the way I started seeing people talking about how X should be directed to use .Xresources when it starts via xrdb, and .Xdefaults should be ignored because it's best to use /etc/X11 rather than ~/.xinitrc . . .
19:38 < apotheon> . . . thus the idea that .Xresources should replace .Xdefaults.
19:38 < apotheon> I never saw any particular reason to adhere to that, though.  It felt very cargo-culty to me.
19:41 < thrig> too big and complicated and everyone has forgotten or not really learned how it works or should work
19:41 < thrig> ... so we replace it with something even bigger and more complicated
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19:51 < apotheon> thrig: the Linux way
19:51 < apotheon> "Now there are fifteen standards."
19:51 < apotheon> . . . and you have to use all of them at the same time.
19:52 < thrig> I was going more for le modern ueb
19:53 < apotheon> "ueb"
19:53 < apotheon> nice
19:53 < apotheon> agreed on that, too
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20:00 < apotheon> I was thinking of ALSA and esound and PulseAudio and the half-dozen other things.
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20:00 < brocashelm> i mean, we're getting wayland pretty soon, aren't way?
20:00 < brocashelm> that's linux
20:01 < brocashelm> *aren't we
20:03 < thrig> chromium is also pretty linux with a fistful of patches
20:04 < ivdsangen> its probably too cumbersome to maintain your own display server
20:05 < ivdsangen> we have to say goodbye to X
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20:15 < avemestr> Seems to have worked fine with xenocara, but the world moves on..
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20:20 < thrig> x11 committed the cardinal sin of being old and thus bad
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20:23 < avemestr> jwz comes to mind: https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
20:25 < ivdsangen> dont fix bugs, just rewrite it
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20:58 < apotheon> thrig: indeed
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20:58 < apotheon> Chromium annoys the shit out of me.
20:58 < apotheon> I actually like the networ-transparent protocol design of X.
20:59 < apotheon> in theory, at least
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21:22 < magnahelix> The modern web is a mess.
21:23 < magnahelix> (web) browsers attempt to do it all.
21:26 < magnahelix> X11/xorg really did become unmaintainable messes over the year.
21:26 < magnahelix> years*
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23:35 < Zyxer> It's not really unmaintainable
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23:35 < Zyxer> The maintainers just abandoned it. 
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23:37 < Zyxer> Xorg is still smaller than OpenBSD kernel. OpenBSD kernel is maintainable. And xorg is still less shit than wayland. (Both are shit, although not sure about Xenocara, that one should be even less shit because someone actually gives a shit about it)
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23:37 < sibiria> openbsd developers don't fully understand X. they did not write the product. a lot of time required to unravel the software, should the primary developers ultimately abandon it
23:39 < sibiria> xfree86 was a new implementation, but xenocara is a port of x.org
23:41 < Zyxer> They already abandoned Xorg, they are the devs and maintainers of wayland. 
23:41 < Zyxer> The primary devs
23:41 < Zyxer> We need to make X great again. 
23:43 < metavoid> what about framebuffer
23:44 < Zyxer> What do you mean? That exists if I am not mistaken.
23:44 < Zyxer> xorg doesn't auto use it tho'
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23:44 < Zyxer> But getting TearFree experience is easy 
23:45 < Zyxer> Even on OpenBSD, just need to do a thing on xorg.conf
23:45 < Zyxer> and also get the drivers, XF86amdgpu or something like that needed 
23:45 < metavoid> skip all the x* crap and run shit in the framebuffer, and everything else in the normal console like irc
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23:46 < Zyxer> Oh, you meant like that, I thought you meant using buffer on GPU for frame sync thing
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23:58 -!- vdamewood [~vdamewood@fedora/vdamewood] has joined #openbsd
23:58 -!- quiliro [~user@157.100.200.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
--- Log closed Sun Dec 17 00:00:02 2023