--- Log opened Fri Jan 26 00:00:58 2024
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00:08 < phy1729> This is #openbsd not #freebsd. Which are you using?
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03:02 < rnkn> is there something that will source an .env file when I cd into a directory with one?
03:03 < thrig> some shells let you run random code when random things happen
03:04 < phy1729> You can also make a cd function 
03:04 < thrig> also a fun way for malicious folks to ship .env files in things
03:04 < rnkn> ah, I hadn't thought of redefining cd
03:05 < rnkn> yeah, after I asked I thought this is maybe not a good idea
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10:05 < cation> phy1729, openbsd
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10:40 < rahl> I'm playing with an idea regarding testing untrusted code - under fairly limited conditions - the code would have max size, be a single .c file, potentially other restrictions
10:41 < rahl> It would also need to specifically implement one or more pre-defined function prototypes
10:43 < rahl> The idea involves using pledge and unveil in the code where I define main() to further sandbox the resulting binary.
10:43 < rahl> The untrusted file would be compiled along with the main.c under my control
10:44 < rahl> My main concern at the moment is that the untrusted code could also try to make use of unveil/pledge to widen it's capabilities. Is that a potential problem?
10:44 < rahl> Are there other things (almost certainly yes) that I'm overlooking?
10:45 < rahl> The resulting binaries would be getting run automatically, to log the output.
10:46 < rahl> In the mean time I shall be digging into pledge/unveil docs to see what more I can learn.
10:48 < IcePic> unveil and pledge will only allow tighter rules when it has been set
10:49 < IcePic> also, when you are done unveil'ing you pledge to not run any more unveils
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11:02 < djjdiw> can I install openbsd on a normal disk?
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11:06 < tercaL> "normal disk"?
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11:17 < rahl> IcePic: ack. That's what was tickling me at the back of my brain. So the pledge to not further unveil should hamper the untrusted code from playing around.
11:17 < rahl> What do you mean "when it has been set"?
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11:19 < rahl> My idea was to set up things in main() such that the process is as limited as possible. The needs of the code should be utterly minimal.
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11:28 < IcePic> rahl: I meant that the way unveil() is meant to be used is that you call it with paths and filenames to be shown, and lastly:
11:29 < IcePic>      After establishing a collection of path and permissions rules, future
11:29 < IcePic>      calls to unveil() can be disabled by passing two NULL arguments.
11:29 < IcePic> so you "finish" the list by calling it once more with two NULL arguments. From there on, no more paths can be made visible with further unveil calls
11:29 < IcePic> or, tell pledge to not allow more unveils. 
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11:32 < djjdiw> the normal disk, with partitions
11:33 < djjdiw> I can't even find out if obsd supports partitions
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11:34 < op2> rahl: honestly i don't get what would be the utility of this, but pay attention to constructors if you link untrusted code with your stuff, as they run before main()
11:35 < IcePic> op2: good catch
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11:37 < IcePic> djjdiw: openbsd supports partitions, but dual-booting is tough in the sense that most OSes tend to want to own the bootloader and MBR/PBRs, so updating one of several installed OSes might overwrite things another OS needs. If you are not multibooting several OSes (a good choice) then you don't have to care much about partitioning (and disklabel slices) since you can just choose "Use Whole Disk" in the 
11:37 < IcePic> installer and be done with it
11:37 < vortexx> djjdiw: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Partitioning
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11:40 < IcePic> if we default to x86/amd64 here, the general idea when installing openbsd is that it makes one single partition, then it splits that one up into smaller pieces (disklabel slices) for separating /,/usr and so on. This is because x86 bios is/was very limited compared to other arches and would often only allow booting from one of 4 partitions and many installations use more than 4 partitions, so one drive 
11:40 < IcePic> would never suffice, neither would the "extended partition" scheme in bios, since it only bumps the number to 7
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12:05 < djjdiw> that faq tells about bsdlabel partitions which I don't care about
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12:06 < djjdiw> there can be unlimited number of disk partitions with mbr/extended partition scheme
12:08 < djjdiw> as I get it bsd can support only a single partition per drive which has bsdlabel layout?
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12:09 < IcePic> djjdiw: yes, that is true from an outside view of the installation. On MBR disks, it would be a single partition with type A6
12:10 < IcePic> from inside this on "fdisk"-partition, the OS will see one or more slices which inside the OS will be seen as partitions, like sd0a, sd0d, sd0e and so on
12:10 < IcePic> if any other OS looks at the drive, they see the one A6 partition
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12:13 < djjdiw> my mbr partition 1 is called 'i' for some reason
12:14 < djjdiw> is there a logic behind this?
12:14 < IcePic> yes, first non-bsd partition gets the letter i, next j and so on, unless there already were so many bsd slices as to alread occupy i
12:18 < djjdiw> and where can I read about that?
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12:22 < IcePic> I don't know where/if this behaviour is documented, other than examples in newfs_msdos and fstab showing it
12:23 < IcePic> I've also wondered where (except the faq) it would be suitable
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12:52 < djjdiw> I'm quite alarmed by the fact the FAT filesystem code is 29 years old - can that cause problems if I enable writing to my partitions?
12:54 < uwharrie> how would the age of the code cause problems?
12:55 < quinq> How many changes in FAT format in the last 29 years?
12:55 < quinq> Also, last commit is from 2023
12:57 < djjdiw> 29 years ago   from netbsd (mostly by ws):
12:57 < quinq> You're talking about the *original* code?
12:57 < quinq> Code evolves in time, you know
12:58 < ludovicus> you should probably upgrade from 2.0 if possible :^)
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12:58 < uwharrie> do you have the same concerns with windows? because I'd imagine their FAT code is a bit older
13:01 < IcePic> as far as file systems go, I guess FAT is among the simplest ones seen in use, so it would presumably be easiest to get somewhat correct
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13:30 < avemestr> djjdiw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1de-pxqHKkU for a recent deep dive into OpenBSD filesystems.
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13:35 < djjdiw> of course: it turns out openbsd doesn't support non-ascii filenames
13:35 < IcePic> not true
13:35 < IcePic> all chars except NUL and '/' works
13:35 < djjdiw> what's worse, it just ignores such files
13:35 < djjdiw> we are discussing the fat driver
13:36 < IcePic> oh, I thought you wrote "openbsd"
13:37 < djjdiw> it lives in src/sys/
13:38 < IcePic> it does, but it is still a foreign file system with all the limitations Bill invented in 1981 or whenever FAT was first written to floppies.
13:39 < avemestr> djjdiw: What are you trying to accomplish?
13:40 < IcePic> very few are surprised by openbsd spending lots of time to work out how to make <clown emoji> work as a filename for a fs that thinks FILENA~1.TXT is a good way to represent entries.
13:40 < IcePic> surprised by obsd _not_ spending..
13:40 < djjdiw> avemestr, work with thumb drives in r/w mode
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13:41 < djjdiw> I could tolerate filena~1.txt, but the issue is it doesn't show such files at all
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13:51 < avemestr> You've checked out "man mount_msdos"? Especially the part about imitated file permissions?
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13:53 < avemestr> Also, it is FAT(32) and not exFAT you're trying to mount?
13:53 < djjdiw> fat32
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14:07 < pardis> djjdiw: you might want to be more specific about what "doesn't support non-ascii filenames" means
14:07 < pardis> since it clearly does: https://clbin.com/Abji4
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14:17 < djjdiw> pardis, they are invisible in GUI and ls shows them as a bunch of ?'s
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14:20 < uwharrie> that's a locale setting issue, not a FS issue
14:22 < djjdiw> od says they are real 3f's
14:25 < sibiria> and 0x3f is ? in ascii
14:25 < sibiria> perhaps that is your actual filename
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14:27 < djjdiw> a fat filename cannot contain ?, so the driver reads it wrong
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14:29 < pardis> no it doesn't, you simply haven't bothered to read the FAQ
14:29 < pardis> are you running od on the output of ls?
14:30 < pardis> and "GUI" is extremely non-specific
14:31 < pardis> a good solution starts with a specific and hopefully correct problem description
14:32 < runelind> how can I check the lifetime of the lease given to me for my public IPv4 address by my ISP?  I'm connected via em1
14:32 < IcePic> I'd think that if the end-game is "moving a set of files from computer A to B" when the medium is 40+ year old FS that (appears to) act up on one of those, sticking the files in a .zip or .tgz is an easy way to gain success
14:32 < runelind> I don't have a /var/db/dhclient.leases.em1 file
14:33 < IcePic> runelind: dang, I was going to suggest that. ;)
14:33 < pardis> are you actually using dhclient?
14:33 < pardis> the default dhcp client is dhcpleased(8), from which you can obtain information using dhcpleasectl(8)
14:33 < djjdiw> pardis, I ran od on both ls and find -print0 output
14:34 < pardis> right, so you're showing what those programs output, not what the msdosfs driver returns
14:34 < pardis> you've already been told what the problem is
14:34 < IcePic> runelind: if you run dhcpleased (check with pgrep) then you can see the lease and time with dhcpleasectl -l em1
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14:38 < djjdiw> for an ascii character '?' to appear on terminal, ls must read it from the filename. there is no ? in the filename, that mean the filename was generated incorrectly
14:39 < pardis> nope
14:39 < IcePic> that assumption is not true
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14:49 < avemestr> Random dude making annoying video on how to mount a FAT32 drive on OpenBSD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADod5ejZjQw - even shows "System Volume Information" with spaces and all.
14:50 < djjdiw> the problem is with non-ascii characters, not spaces
14:50 < pardis> except I just showed you verbatim output of OpenBSD showing non-ascii characters in filenames on fat32
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14:52 < uwharrie> from ls(1): LC_CTYPE The character encoding locale(1). It decides which byte sequences form characters and what their display width is. If unset or set to "C", "POSIX", or an unsupported value, non-ASCII bytes are replaced by question marks.
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14:53 < pardis> I'm sure saying that yet again will have about as much attention paid to it
14:54 < djjdiw> pardis, that file was not created in windows
14:54 < pardis> this is the first time you've mentioned anything at all about files being created in Windows
14:55 < pardis> so now we go back to <pardis> a good solution starts with a specific and hopefully correct problem description
14:56 < sibiria> djjdiw: isn't it likelier that you're doing something wrong, rather than everyone else getting it to work is doing something wrong
14:56 < sibiria> just a wild theory
14:57 < runelind> IcePic ah yeah it appears that dhcpleased is the client that I'm running
14:57 < djjdiw> i don't see anyone else getting it to work
14:57 < runelind> and my lease time is 29 minutes 
14:57 < avemestr> djjdiw: And you tried doing "LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8" (or whatever your locale is)?
14:58 < avemestr> *export
14:58 < djjdiw> I'm reinforced in my opinion by the fact I'm looking at the msdos code and it clearly doesn't work
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14:58 < pardis> yup, eyeballing kernel code instead of trying the solutions presented in the FAQ and by volunteers in this channel is the way to go
14:59 < djjdiw> avemestr, yes, it outputs the same bytes with en_US.UTF-8 too
15:00 < djjdiw> what section of the faq offers solutions related to the filenames? it is hard to guess from the top
15:00 < djjdiw> *toc
15:00 < pardis> I was referring to the locale settings in the FAQ, which you've now finally tried (or at least confirmed you have tried)
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15:00 < uwharrie> there's a chance Windows didn't use UTF-8. Could be UTF-16 or CP437
15:01 < pardis> if you have files created in Windows, do they perhaps have UTF-16 names?
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15:01 < pardis> and have you read mount_msdos(8)? there's a mount option there that might help if so
15:02 < djjdiw> uwharrie, long filenames are stored as UTF-16 and should work in a utf-8 locale
15:04 < pardis> they do work, as demonstrated
15:04 < pardis> there is something different about your filesystem
15:04 < djjdiw> pardis, yes, I tried different lc_ctype and lang settings, and it does not effect the result
15:05 < sibiria> do: export LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8; export LANG=en_US.UTF-8
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15:06 < pardis> it is generally better to show specific commands and output than to describe what you did
15:06 < djjdiw> same 3f's sibiria
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15:09 < sibiria> if you're trying with 7.4, have you also tested on some (quite) older version to see if the behavior was identical back then?
15:09 < djjdiw> "The current [mount_msdos] version is based on code written by Christopher G. Demetriou ... in April 1994"
15:10 < sibiria> yeah but changes happen along the way
15:10 < sibiria> maybe something broke VFAT extension at some point and nobody noticed
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15:12 < djjdiw> if you look at line 734 in msdosfs_conv.c, you'll see that LFNs containing codepoints U+0100 and higher are rejected outright
15:14 < sibiria> maybe you can patch it up then to actually support UCS-2
15:15 < sibiria> at least i presume there is _some_ VFAT support in there?
15:15 < sibiria> LFN at the very least
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15:17 < pardis> that's also not correct
15:17 < pardis> I just reproduced the same test I pasted earlier but with β (U+03B2) instead of é and it still works
15:19 < pardis> just tried again with 💩 (U+1F4A9) and that also works
15:19 < djjdiw> pardis, are you doing that in Windows?
15:20 < pardis> nope
15:21 < pardis> is the bit of code you're referencing in an if (has_ever_been_touched_by_windows) block?
15:21 < djjdiw> we know that Windows has a working fat driver
15:22 < pardis> good job knowing that
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15:24 < pardis> I think at this point this must be a slightly-better-than-average troll
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15:24 < djjdiw> I've created <beta>.txt file, and it doesn't show up either
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15:26 < djjdiw> ls shows some random value as its shortname
15:26 < pardis> and you're still refusing to show any specific terminal output or commands used, so it's impossible to tell if you're omitting important information
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15:27 < pardis> but if something works for other OpenBSD users and not you, it's safe to say you are doing something different
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15:27 < djjdiw> ls /mnt | od -xc
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15:28 < djjdiw> pardis do windows or linux show the files you've created in openbsd?
15:29 < pardis> I don't know, I'm creating this on a vnd(4) device and getting out a Windows or Linux box and a removable storage medium is more work than I'm interested in doing for this
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15:32 < djjdiw> then it would be wise to refrain from calling that results "working for other openbsd users" as there is no way to verify that
15:33 < djjdiw> I'm experience a knowingly valid fat32 volume with non-ascii names not showing properly in openbsd
15:34 < pardis> you just said that you created a file with β in it (presumably on OpenBSD?) and it didn't show up
15:34 < pardis> if you didn't create that on OpenBSD, that would be an easy test for you to try
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15:35  * sonya is fine with creation usb-fat in obsd and later operate files (from that fat-usb) from Windows and Linux..
15:36 < djjdiw> well let me find a expendible media to try it in r/w mode
15:36 < pardis> it's really hard to know what you're actually doing because your problem description has been vague from the beginning, with details usually only provided after two or three different people ask for the same thing
15:38 < sibiria> maybe you should try it with more than single character filenames
15:39 < sibiria> VFAT wants UCS-2 so there's a point where single glyphs in UTF-8 can deceive
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15:40 < sibiria> if the openbsd driver doesn't have UCS-2 support in its VFAT portion then it's simply a no-go
15:40 < sibiria> it would end up as question marks on the openbsd side, and putting multiple utf-8 glyphs in on the openbsd side would look like random garbage on linux/windows
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15:41 < djjdiw> the beta created by openbsd is shown as I squared with a hat in windows
15:41 < sibiria> or as typical character conversion hiccups, rather, along the lines of utf8-vs-latin1
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15:43 < djjdiw> chkdsk says the volume contains errors
15:46 < djjdiw> the same bugged name on android too
15:47  * sonya remember some kind of issues when files on [ex]fat-usb are created in Windows/Linux and had non latin1/utf-8 codepage for a filename.. afair, obsd has no things like --iocharset or direct filename conversion option for mount, but anyway files are accesible and there're (a lot of) ways to convert filenames if needed.. imho..
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15:52 < sonya> if filenames have a latin1 chars/symbols in names - no issues with [ex]fat here i can remember so far…
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15:55 < rahl> IcePic: thanks again. Much clearer in my head now
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15:58 < rahl> op2: I'm playing with ideas for how to sandbox code for an online course, where student submissions are the untrusted source.
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15:59 < op2> ah, that somehow makes sense :)
15:59 < rahl> and cheers for the heads up re constructors - I would not have thought of that. Initially the source will be C though, so is there anything equivalent to worry about in that case?
15:59 < op2> iirc yes
16:00 < op2> don't remember the syntax but there are __attribute__()s to tell the compiler that a function is a constructor
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16:00 < rahl> ack
16:01 < op2> depending on the kind of code, you may also statically compile it and run it inside an empty chroot
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16:01 < rahl> would it be a "better" idea to compile the untrusted code as a dynamic library instead?
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16:02 < op2> i thought of it, but IIRC you can't dlopen() after having called pledge()
16:02 < rahl> ah
16:03 < thrig> attacker might love to have dlopen available
16:04 < thrig> and if they hack your test system, that's probably worth extra credit
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16:04 < rahl> as for the chroot idea, that could work too - pros/cons vs using building pledge into the binary? In the past when I've had questions about chrooting for sandboxing I've had other people suggest using pledge in the source instead :D
16:04 < Bradipo> Why not use both?
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16:04 < op2> what kind of code you're going to run?  what does it needs?  just computational or network, file i/o etc?
16:05 < rahl> ha, yeah leaving dlopen could be bad, but they'd be limited to using what's on the system I guess - which I suppose could still be alot - I have much to learn about opsec
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16:05 < thrig> other times they disqualify you and then add new rules - https://www.foo.be/docs/tpj/issues/vol1_2/tpj0102-0009.html
16:05 < op2> rahl: ah, actually, this could be a case for pledge' execpromises :)
16:06 < op2> there's only one program using that feature in base (ld.so if i remember correctly), but the idea is to set up a pledge *before* running the program
16:07 < rahl> file io mostly, but the submission would be a single file - so the accessible files could be limited
16:07 < rahl> I would certainly be inclined to reward hacking
16:07 < rahl> Bradipo: true
16:08 < op2> a way to do it would be to write a wrapper executables that does pledge("exec", "list of promises for the untrusted code"); exec(untrusted-program);
16:08 < rahl> op2: what do you mean by computational? I'm inclined to say yes as it feels like all processes would require that ;)
16:08 < rahl> definitely no network access
16:09 < rahl> I will have to read up on execpromises then.
16:09 < op2> i forgot about them because in 99.9999% of the cases you just pass NULL there
16:09 < rahl> yeah ok, that pattern makes sense
16:10 < thrig> handy to wrap problematic things like irssi where compiling in pledge is a pain
16:10 < op2> unveil however doesn't work like that, it is always reset at exec()
16:11 < op2> so it would be interesting to run this stuff as a different user (and maybe even with tight limits regarding memory usage, disk quotas, etc...)
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16:11 < rahl> was already planning on that as well
16:12 < rahl> for other reasons, but happy to hear it could be useful for this as well
16:12 < op2> and just to be sure block the network access via pf.conf (even if you're not going to grant the dns/inet promise, it won't hurt)
16:12 < rahl> ack
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16:12 < phy1729> There's always vmd too
16:13 < op2> rahl: last thing; i would run clang as a different user (the same that's goign to run the executable) as well, just to stay on the safe side :)
16:14 < rahl> happy to err on the side of caution
16:15 < op2> there's thfr' abstain from which you can draw some ispiration maybe: https://github.com/rfht/abstain
16:15 < op2> although it does the opposite (all pledges by default, using -p selectively removes them)
16:15 < rahl> phy1729: I considered virtualisation as well. Part of me just wants to learn more about pledge/unveil. But also, would vmd be "heavier weight"?
16:16 < rahl> op2: cheers, will check that out too
16:16  * rahl looks for dump backlog alias - needs to convert this to some notes
16:16 < phy1729> Yes it'd be heavier. You could run the compilation in there too though
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16:20 < rahl> I'd be tempted to have a vm per "user", but that would be a bit excessive
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16:20 < rahl> advantages of vmd over chroot?
16:20 < rahl> one vm and then spawn a "user" per compilation/run
16:21 < rahl> still making use of pledge and execpromises - and rlimit/login.conf to further tighten
16:22 < rahl> do I lose out by not being able to make use of unveil?
16:23 < rahl> would it be too complex to try and protect against the untrusted code running unveil before main()?
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16:26 < sibiria> *before* main()? how? by altering crt0?
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16:27 < pardis> vmd provides more than just filesystem isolation, you also get network and process isolation
16:27 < pardis> a process in a chroot can still see all the processes running on the system
16:27 < pardis> this may or may not be a concern to you, but it is one possible advantage
16:28 < pardis> vmd obviously comes with the significant disadvantage of only working on a subset of amd64 bare metal
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16:30 < rahl> pardis: cheers. If I can sufficiently tighten things, I'm not sure seeing all the processes would be much of a problem - but then I could be wrong 
16:31 < rahl> The system would not be used for anything else
16:31 < phy1729> All processes and their arguments. This is why you should never pass passwords/secrets as command line arguments
16:31 < op2> without the ps promises the code won't be able to see the processes anyway
16:32 < rahl> sibiria: going on some previous comments regarding constructors and potential similar issue with C
16:33 < rahl> I'm open to more knowledge though 
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17:10 < commodorian> Is it possible to get the mbstring extension to PHP? Having trouble finding it in the official ports list, and search engines aren't really helping either. Also looking for the openssl extension.
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17:13 < sibiria> commodorian: it's part of the base package
17:14 < sibiria> they are*
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17:15 < thrig> pkglocate mbstring | grep \^php-
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17:16 < tercaL> commodorian: OpenSSL comes by the default as of PHP 8.x
17:17 < sibiria> same with mbstring, iconv, bcmath, json, pcre etc.
17:17 < commodorian> Okay. Having some troubles with getting a PHP app to work (the curl extension is complaining that it can't resolve domain names, even though I've gone in with php -a and made a curl object and downloaded perfectly fine). I'll keep that in mind.
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17:23 < op2> commodorian: did you read /usr/local/share/doc/pkg-readmes/php-X.Y ?
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17:24 < op2> for dns resolving in a chroot there are some additional steps
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17:24 < op2> specifically, the 'Making network connection' section in that file
17:24 < commodorian> I'll have a look at that. Thanks for the help. Unfortunately I'm burdened with Linux brain so don't quite know the paths I should check before attempting anything too crazy :)
17:25 < op2> np :)
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17:25 < op2> but pay attention when you install packages, as pkg_add will tell you if there are new readme files
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20:07 < antithesis_> Hello
20:07 < antithesis_> I have a question about OpenBSD. Does it contain binary blobs?
20:08 < antithesis_> I am looking for a FOSS operating system
20:08 < fucku> good evening
20:08 < netwinder_> By binary blobs do you mean proprietary firmware blobs?
20:08 -!- Netwinder [~netwinder@bras-base-kntaon1621w-grc-03-76-64-65-183.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:08 < antithesis_> netwinder_ yeah
20:08 < antithesis_> Hello fucku 
20:09 < fucku> yo
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20:10 < fucku> I think it does
20:10 < antithesis_> Really? Why is it called OpenBSD then if it isn't open?
20:10 < netwinder_> antithesis_ I don't think there are proprietary drivers in OpenBSD. 
20:11 < antithesis_> So the one person says yes and the other person says no. Which is it?? And why is something like that not known
20:11 < antithesis_> If even the developers don't know the OS, how am I expected to learn it as a user?
20:11 < eea>  something like that is known... the OS parts of openbsd are all open, the hardware drivers are another story
20:12 < antithesis_> I am thinking the system got too complex. Unlike something like Freedos, where you can get an intimate understanding of the system within a short timespan
20:12 < eea> and not made by openbsd
20:12 < thrig> you could not run fw_update and not have wifi and video and whatnot
20:12 < eea> ^
20:12 < antithesis_> so you update the system and it breaks? Sounds like you take your inspiration from the GNU/Linux people.
20:13 < antithesis_> It's 2024 but we don't have an OS that doesn't suck.
20:13 -!- DINOWILLIAM [~DINOWILLI@177.220.187.230] has joined #openbsd
20:13 < antithesis_> OpenBSD? More like OpenBSOD.
20:13 < thrig> the Intel manuals run to thousands of pages for just the CPU. good luck understanding that.
20:13 < oldlaptop> antithesis_: On the off chance you are in fact merely accidentally resembling a troll, see  https://www.openbsd.org/policy.html
20:13 < antithesis_> oh okay thank you
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20:14 < antithesis_> dude wtf, that's many pages long. You expect me to read that? I just wanna partake in discussion
20:14 < antithesis_> I didn't know IRC became like Discord where you have to read a whole policy each time you join a 'server'
20:15 < antithesis_> Do you use Discord oldlaptop ?
20:15 < antithesis_> Or is your laptop too old for that?
20:15 < netwinder_> antithesis_ I am not an openBSD developer, but openBSD does not ship binary blobs by default and has historically been against including them in the source tree
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20:15 < antithesis_> Oh so out of the box it doesn't support all hardware?
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20:16 < eea> nvidia and Bluetooth are non starters
20:16 < oldlaptop> antithesis_: If you're interested in learning things, you need to read. If you're interested in trolling, you need to go elsewhere.
20:16 < eea> all else, works in my experience
20:16 < antithesis_> Like, if a system were to require proprietary drivers, it would simply not work rather than download those drivers?
20:16 < antithesis_> dude why tf are you calling me a troll?
20:16 < antithesis_> That of which you accuse me, you yourself are!
20:17 < oldlaptop> "proprietary drivers" for OpenBSD do not /exist/ to download, as a practical matter.
20:17 < eea> your aggressive tone.
20:17 < netwinder_> antithesis_ I don't think any OS supports all hardware
20:17 < antithesis_> Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself
20:17 < antithesis_> You know, like the Creedence lyrics. You ever listen to them?
20:17 < fucku> What's trolling?
20:17 -!- mode/#openbsd [+o oldlaptop] by ChanServ
20:17 < antithesis_> oldlaptop you are troon
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20:18 -!- mode/#openbsd [+q $a:antitheis] by oldlaptop
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20:18 < oldlaptop> Well.
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20:18 < eea> oldlaptop: thank you +1
20:18 < oldlaptop> And that had a trailing underscore too. :|
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20:19 < fucku> can anyone explain me what trolling is?
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20:19 < eea>  Google
20:19 < oldlaptop> Not if you do that we can't
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21:21  * sonya is accepting 'congrats': 197 Current_Pending_Sector RAW_VALUE = 1 … Hitachi Travelstar 80GN made around 2002 … 22 years we've been together
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21:23 < serious> impressive.  Ally my hitachi drives turned into deathstars
21:23 -!- nacelle [~oO@wireguard/tunneler/nacelle] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
21:24 < sonya> thanks! polite_bow.jpg
21:24 -!- huy [~huy@lfbn-tou-1-1287-12.w90-89.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openbsd
21:25 < sibiria> HGST and Toshiba <3
21:26 < runelind_> I've had good luck with HGST
21:26 -!- runelind_ is now known as runelind
21:26 < sonya> that means i've got chances not to give up :) actually i'm planning to live with it until the inevitable end
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21:27 < serious> how romantic
21:27 < runelind> I had some 4TB drives run for almost 10 years
21:28 < runelind> I just got some new-to-me 10T drives that have been datacenter pulls 
21:28 < runelind> no issues and dirt cheap. 
21:28 < runelind> came with a 5 yr warranty
21:29 < sonya> now thinking about 'low' formatting.. just get used to the old notebook :)  runelind : are they ssd or rust spinning? i'm still worry that 30% for ssd unallocated space is not enough
21:30 < runelind> sonya they are spinning rust.  No SMART errors. 
21:30 < sonya> great
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21:40 < runelind> https://www.ebay.com/itm/166052947286 these are the ones I got
21:40 < runelind> is there a way to get dhcpleased to fire some kind of event if the IP changes? 
21:40 < thrig> ifstated comes to mind
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21:47 < runelind> thrig I'll check into that, thank you! 
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22:13 < oldlaptop> sonya: SSDs generally have their own 'unallocated space', i.e. they have more memory than the capacity they expose to the host (the term at least used to be 'overprovisioning')
22:14 < oldlaptop> although they still *also* tend to slow down when the exposed host capacity is "full" :|
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22:24 < sonya> oldlaptop: i'm just hoping that ssd's GC is good enough to do what it should… my favorite is and always been 5400RPM Hitachi/HGST :)
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22:33 < sibiria> i have a preference for 2.5" 5400 RPM drives. quiet and low-power. pity the capacities are relatively low still
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22:49 < avemestr> Yeah, funny how 8TB SSDs are readily available in 2.5", but spinning rust has reached like 5TB nowadays.
22:51 < avemestr> I've had no 18TB WD HC550 going bad the last 3 years (of about 100 bought). Not sure they'll last 20 years, though.
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22:52 < thrig> good old quantum fireballs
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23:05 < runelind> they do sound like gravel grinders all the time though.
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23:05 < ludovicus> yep, my 20 gig qfireball is loud man
23:05 < ludovicus> but works just fine
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23:56 < PyR3X> in PLIST @newuser how can I add a new user to multiple groups at pkg_create time?
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 27 00:00:00 2024