--- Log opened Mon Feb 05 00:00:12 2024
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01:57 < oldlaptop> sibiria: (twenty years later, the eggdrop community remains synonymous with crappy tcl code)
01:58 < oldlaptop> perhaps not the best thing to use to judge the language
01:58 < thrig> some sqlite thing started as a TCL extension
01:58 < oldlaptop> got WAY out of hand, apparently
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01:59 < thrig> and other such fossil technology
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02:00  * oldlaptop is not impedance-matched to fossil
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07:27 < lil_lasagna> hi, I was wondering why doesn't more code in openbsd use length-based strings as opposed to null terminated strings. They are more efficient and safer, and enable richer string manipulation. Plus, you can always create a null terminated string out of them when needed, such as to interface to some other API that expects a null terminated string
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07:29 < __gilles> they also don't exist natively in C and can only work if you only ever work with them through functions, which you can't enforce
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07:30 < quinq> How is that safer to not have an explicitely terminated string?
07:30 < __gilles> yeah that too
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07:31 < quinq> Oh, hi __gilles :)
07:32 < __gilles> hi !
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07:33 < lil_lasagna> for simple tools made by one person, I don't see the issue. If you want to enforce that people use them through functions, you can make it opaque and just use a pointer. As for them not existing natively in C, that is true, but that doesn't mean that we can't create our own structs. As for why they are safer, they are safer in the sense that all
07:33 < lil_lasagna> functions that work on these strings won't accept a char *, but a string struct, so they will always have the length and work from there. You can have a string struct whose underlying char* is indeed null terminated and a string_view that makes no such requeriment, and use string_views in your code as much as possible, sort of like what C++ does
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07:34 < lil_lasagna> and as I said, whenever you need to interface one of your strings with an external dependency, you can just use your regular string struct or if it's a string_view, create a null terminated string from it
07:35 < lil_lasagna> this also makes strings more efficient, as you don't need to call strlen (plus you won't get an overflow if the string you are calling strlen on is not null terminated)
07:35 < quinq> Well, it's always a question of memory used vs theorical speed
07:36 < quinq> You won't get an overflow on strlen ever :)
07:36 < quinq> objects in C have determined maximum size
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07:37 < quinq> And why would you get an overflow with strlen and not with your stored string size?
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07:37 < quinq> Ah sorry, I misunderstood what you meant
07:38 < quinq> You're arguing not to not null-terminate string, but to create a new overhead of wrapping strings into structs that contain their length
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07:38 < quinq> Like a belt & suspender model
07:38 < quinq> s
07:39 < quinq> Why not, if you're sure your programs/libraries have discipline enough to keep that size updated and recreate a whole set/ecosystem of string-manipulation functions
07:40 < quinq> But I don't think that actually improves safety, it also adds complexity, so more bugs
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07:40 < lil_lasagna> that is my biggest issue with that approach, you need to create a new whole string manipulation library that takes advantage of this new string type
07:40 < quinq> Also that adds the incentive to work with char arrays instead of actual strings
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07:41 < lil_lasagna> and you need to make sure that you are not introducing any vulnerabilities
07:41 < quinq> Instead of working with strings, and in very special cases, just char arrays where special care should actually be taken
07:41 < quinq> yeah
07:44 < lil_lasagna> I just keep thinking back about the GTA V incident where they were using strlen on a huge JSON string and wasting minutes and though that if anyone has gotten C string right at this point, it has to be openbsd, but most of the improvements made are in safely handling null terminated strings, so I got curious
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08:14 < __gilles> 07:40 < quinq> But I don't think that actually improves safety, it also adds complexity, so more bugs
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08:14 < __gilles> i agree
08:14 < __gilles> I worked with nginx recently and they have a string struct used everywhere which does exactly that
08:14 < __gilles> but there are some situations where the size is not incremented automagically by one of their functions
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08:14 < __gilles> if you forget to do it yourself, instant buffer overflow
08:15 < __gilles> so that's a real-life app using this model and I find it nightmarish to deal with, much more complex and error prone than nul-ended strings
08:17 < __gilles> also for this idea to work, you'd really need to get rid of pointers and enforce a lot of new constraints at compiler level
08:17 < __gilles> otherwise it's just half-baked imo
08:17 < IcePic> yeah, there has been at least one major issue with hostnames and certificates due to hostnames being nul-terminated strings "everywhere" and certificates allowing NULs inside their lenght+chararray string type
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08:35 < IcePic> so while len+chars is an alternative, you have to be super-super careful when moving data from one domain to another, and 99.9% of all C libs will probably be of the old bad type, so until you get a huge majority for your new string struct you will be doing these kinds of changes back and forth
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08:47 < IcePic> then some smaller issue would be "can a string be longer than 2^32" so that it needs a 64bit len which for almost all cases will be overkill, but sometimes it might be needed
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08:50 < lil_lasagna> I mean at that point a strlen would kill performance and not be a good solution anyways
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09:01 < IcePic> lil_lasagna: will be slow and doesn't work are two quite different problem domains
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09:03 < IcePic> few people probably predicted that Firefox/Chrome can't be compiled with debug on 32-bit arches but needs to be cross-compiled from 64bit machines, where linking in the old days was sort of a glorified "cat *.o > final_binary" but now is something completely different that requires >4G ram at times
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09:40 < sonya> IcePic: hell yeah… i tried to build an old seamonkey/ff with gtk2 on native i386 (P-IV, 2.4GHz, 448Mb RAM) and resulted in skia's assembler faults, that required SSE4+ cpu.. build without skia failed (don't remember why) and i ended up with ff-52.9.0 ESR build with gtk3 and current nss/nspr.. just give up to build smth like ff-45.9.0esr, but i do like an idea to have smth with gtk2+js (except ducktape 
09:40 < sonya> js)..
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09:45 < sibiria> oldlaptop: i didn't learn TCL from eggdrop. it's just where i made most use of it outside work
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09:48 < sonya> sibiria: it was on my to-do list to learn 'fluid' and to write even a single non-console/non-terminal app.. task successfuly failed.. till now.. :)
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09:53 < sibiria> never heard of it
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10:15 < kodcode> anyone compiled for the RP2040 (RPI Pico)?
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12:19 < natmeo> I still have much adoration for tcl
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13:32 < basiic> curious to know if anyone using i3 has set up i3bar displaying memory? command i3status starts with saying ¨Memory status information is not supported on this system¨
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13:41 < natmeo> mine seems to be ok
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13:45 < basiic> could you please share insights of memory entry in i3status.conf?
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14:04 < natmeo> https://paste.debian.net/1306357/
14:04 < natmeo> i think it's standard
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14:04 < natmeo> i3status does say the same thing on start, but it displays the memory
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14:06 < basiic> thanks! but yeah, its default. hmm, wonder where program top gets the info for memory. Could not find in dmesg or sysctl info about used memory
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14:10 < IcePic> basiic: sysctl kern.malloc has tons of info, perhaps it gets it from there?
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14:41 < harpia> How do you call a user-defined function from xargs?
14:41 < harpia> I tried "export function_name", it still fails with "xargs: function_name: No such file or directory"
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14:43 < k0ga> harpia: you cannot do that. xargs is a program that execs the arguments that it receives
14:43 < pardis> you cannot call a shell function using xargs
14:43 < k0ga> it is not a shell builtin or similar
14:43 < pardis> but the good news is 1) you almost never need xargs, and 2) if you have a reusable function, it should be a script instead so that you can call it from places other than your interactive shell
14:43 < pardis> so this problem need not exist
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14:47 < harpia> It's in a script. I'm trying to call my shell function for every line of a text file. "cat /etc/textfile | xargs -n 1 my_function"
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14:48 < sibiria> while read r; do something.sh $r; done < /etc/textfile
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14:49 < harpia> I heard it's a bad idea to use a shell loop for this: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/169716/why-is-using-a-shell-loop-to-process-text-considered-bad-practice
14:50 < harpia> they suggest using xargs instead
14:50 < sibiria> do you have control of the input? then don't worry
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14:52 < sibiria> it's not like xargs will save you from malicious input. it's a concern all the same, and if you're accepting input from others you will still want to sanitize
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14:53 < pardis> the top answer in that thread you linked says "Using a shell loop to process text may make sense when your task involves what the shell is good at: launching external programs."
14:53 < pardis> which is exactly what you're doing here
14:53 < pardis> (a function is arguably not really an "external program", but in terms of invocation it is indistinguishable from one)
14:54 < harpia> ah, I see
14:54 < harpia> I'll use the while loop
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15:00 < Lucas6023> harpia: btw, `xargs -n 1` might not work as you want. Take a look at the output of `printf '%s\n' "a line with spaces" "something else" | xargs -n 1 printf "%s\n"`
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15:01 < Lucas6023> I'll add something to the loop that sibiria suggested too: use `read -r`
15:01 < Lucas6023> and odn't forget to quote the arguments
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15:04 < sibiria> quoting, sanitizing, always obvious
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15:17 < Bradipo> Lucas6023: Why read -r?
15:18 < Lucas6023> read the fabulous manual, breavyn
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15:18 < Lucas6023> sorry, Bradipo
15:19 < phy1729> while IFS= read -r line;   is what you usually want
15:19 < Lucas6023> for reading the whole line, `IFS` doesn't really matter
15:19 < phy1729> it does
15:19 < Bradipo> Yes, I read the fabulous manual...
15:20 < Lucas6023> phy1729: IFS is used for field splitting and assigning to multiple variables. Given there is a single variable in here, it doesn't matter.
15:20 < Bradipo> It doesn't say what -r is for, it says what does not happen when it's in use. :-)
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15:20 < phy1729> Lucas6023: now try on a line with leading whitespace
15:20 < Bradipo> "If the input line ends in a backslash and the -r option was not used"...
15:20 < Bradipo> Guess one has to get used to thinking in reverse polish notation.
15:21 < harpia> For context, my script creates backups (powered by cron) on a separate storage device. I didn't want to hardcode the paths to backup, so I'm reading them from a text file.
15:21 < pardis> rsync can already read paths from a file
15:22 < Bradipo> So I suppose -r does *not* strip backslash and newline?
15:22 < phy1729> yes
15:23 < Lucas6023> phy1729: point taken
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16:47 < basiic> Hello dear community. I am looking for best approach to set up custom windows manager, lets say i3. My concern is that default windows manager is still running in background, if I start i3 by ¨exec i3¨ in ~/.Xsession. Can I run i3 without xenodm?
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16:49 < ivdsangen> if you use .xsession to launch i3 the default wm will not be running in the background normally
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16:51 < Lucas6023> basiic: show your ~/.xsession
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16:52 < Bradipo> basiic: xenodm still runs, regardless of the contents of .xsession.
16:52 < basiic> Thank you for clarification! As for disabling xenodm, my bad, bc as I read in https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq11.html xenodm adds security. 
16:52 < basiic> my ~/.xsession is just ¨exec i3¨
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16:55 < Lucas6023> if that's it, then there is no default window manager running in background
16:56 < basiic> OpenBSD is the best, thanks!
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20:11 < Bradipo> What's the best way to set environment variables for non-intereractive commands?
20:12 < Bradipo> ksh will read .profile, but only for interactive shells.
20:13 < Bradipo> Well, I suppose really it's ENV that it reads for interactive shells.
20:13 < thrig> how is the command being run?
20:13 < Bradipo> ssh host command
20:13 < Bradipo> Because command is not a login shell, nor is it an interactive shell, nothing in .profile or .kshrc has eny effect.
20:13 < Bradipo> s/eny/any/
20:13 < thrig> there was a thread about this recently on one of the lists
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20:14 < Bradipo> https://marc.info/?t=170706497400002&r=1&w=2
20:14 < Bradipo> Yes, that's very similar.
20:15 < Bradipo> I'm currently looking through ksh sources to see if there is perhaps some undocumented, or even obscurely documented, method.
20:15 < Bradipo> Seems odd that ksh proper has no way to initialize the environment except for "login" or "interactive" shells.
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20:16 < Bradipo> SetEnv in sshd_config would be ideal, except it doesn't support macros.
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20:16 < thrig> ssh blah env blah=blah blah
20:17 < Bradipo> Yep, that's the non-automatic way.
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20:17 < Bradipo> ssh blah env PATH=\$HOME/bin:\$PATH blah
20:17 < Bradipo> Not very ideal.
20:18 < Bradipo> Every user would have to do it.
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20:18 < thrig> or just put the necessary env settings into blah, or use the fully qualified path to ~/bin/blah
20:18 < Bradipo> Oddly enough, I'm curious what sets the PATH for non-interactive SSH sessions.
20:18 < Bradipo> I notice that when I run: ssh host env
20:18 < Bradipo> The PATH is some value, but not any value I've set anywhere.
20:19 < Bradipo> This is the path: PATH=/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin
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20:20 < Bradipo> Is that coming from /.profile ?
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20:20 < Lucas6023> most probably it comes from /etc/login.conf
20:21 < Bradipo> Ahh, right.
20:21 < Bradipo> Yes, it's the :path=
20:21 < Bradipo> So that's the answer right there...
20:21 < Bradipo> Well, no...
20:21 < Bradipo> Not if login.conf doesn't support some kind of macro/variable substitution for a given user.
20:22 < Bradipo> e.g. if every user has a ~/bin directory, I'm not sure that can be represented in login.conf... time to read the man page.
20:22 < thrig> grep STD /usr/include/paths.h
20:23 < Bradipo> Hmm, so there is also that...
20:23 < Bradipo> I suppose I would have to alter login.conf to see if the path changes or not.
20:23 < Bradipo> If it changes, then login.conf wins.  If it doesn't change, it's this _PATH_STDPATH.
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20:23 < Bradipo> Haha, login.conf mentions _PATH_STDPATH.
20:24 < Bradipo> Ok, yes, login.conf does support ~, so it can be expanded to a dynamic user's environment.
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20:35 < Bradipo> Does MacOS have an equivalent to login.conf?
20:42 < sibiria> not really
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20:44 < thrig> I recall there being a wacky XML plist file you could put static env into way back when
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20:46 < Bradipo> Yeah, it seems the wacky XML plist doesn't work anymore.
20:46 < Bradipo> At least not for SSH sessions.  It might work for login sessions on the console.
20:47 < Bradipo> https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/29861/how-do-i-change-my-non-interactive-shell-path
20:47 < Bradipo> That's the wacky XML thing...
20:47 < Bradipo> But it's from 2011... Apple doesn't believe in stable interfaces, so I doubt it's still even relevant.
20:48 < basiic> I am reading manual about sysctl.conf file, but there is none after fresh installation in /etc/. Is there example file to be copied to /etc/?
20:48 < Bradipo> It's in /etc/examples with all the rest.
20:48 < basiic> Thank you, Bradipo.
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20:51 < MonsoonSecrecy> is this still the way to go for an email server? https://poolp.org/posts/2019-09-14/setting-up-a-mail-server-with-opensmtpd-dovecot-and-rspamd/
20:52 < uwharrie> it's *a* way to go, but not necessarily *the* way
20:52 < MonsoonSecrecy> OK thank you
20:52 < thrig> you could also firewall port 25
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21:02 < __gilles> at some point I'll update the article
21:03 < sibiria> are you still doing most of the work on opensmtpd?
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21:11 < MonsoonSecrecy> __gilles: thank you, would you do something different?
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21:13 < __gilles> sibiria: nope, i took a four years break and haven't followed much, slowly catching up
21:14 < __gilles> MonsoonSecrecy: it depends on the setup, for a personnal server i'd probably just follow the steps
21:15 < __gilles> but i do use virtual domains a lot so i'd customize
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21:15 < __gilles> gnite
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21:49 < MonsoonSecrecy> __gilles: thank you for the article it is very nice
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