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03:23 < nij-> Anyone here actually read the code of the kernel frequently, to find out what's going on, and even do some hacks?
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03:24 < dlg> yeah, i do
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03:27 < nij-> How long have you been doing that? Is it very difficult?
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03:28 < thrig> probably gets easier with practice
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03:45 < lus> Anyone knows of a man page that explains the ip packet?
03:45 < dlg> nij-: quite a while :( thrig is right about practice though
03:46 < dlg> lus: what do you want to know about an ip packet?
03:46 < lus> what is initial sequence number.
03:46 < nij-> dlg Was the hacking successful and useful?
03:47 < nij-> Or was it more like a personal practice?
03:47 < dlg> nij-: i think so, yes
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03:47 < nij-> If possible.. could you share what that hack was about..?
03:47 < h3at> interested*
03:48 < dlg> hrm...
03:48 < dlg> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=108191810931925&w=2 maybe
03:51 < dlg> nij-: https://github.com/openbsd/src/blob/master/sys/netinet/ip.h#L47-L68
03:51 < dlg> nij-: do you mean ip_id? or the tcp sequence number in a tcp packet?
03:52 < dlg> i mean
03:52 < dlg> lus
03:52 < dlg> nij-: the thing ive found most helpful to remember abou the kernel is that it is just a big c program.
03:53 < dlg> if you're ok with c, then it's just about figuring out the idioms/apis used in the kernel
03:53 < dlg> it is very big though
03:53 < dlg> finding a small problem to start with is best in my opinion
03:53 < dlg> even if you make up the problem just for yourself
03:53 < dlg> eg, "make the kernel print hello during boot"
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03:57 < nij-> I was using linux and now macos.. getting further and further from bsd.
03:57 < nij-> But I hope I can understand its beauty one day.
03:57 < nij-> Problem is I don't find a problem to solve.
03:58 < h3at> isnt macos bsd variants?
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04:04 < remiliascarlet> Technically, yes.
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04:05 < remiliascarlet> macOS is Darwin, which is a combination of FreeBSD and NeXTStep, which in itself is 4.2BSD I believe, and Apple continues to borrow code from FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD for every new release.
04:06 < nij-> Why do people like linux more than bsds?
04:06 < nij-> A common reason is that the packages are less.
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04:06 < nij-> But is it really that hard to maintain your own packages?
04:06 < remiliascarlet> Even the macOS codeutils are almost identical to the ones from FreeBSD.
04:07 < remiliascarlet> nij-: That requires some historical context which can take long to explain, but basically you can thank AT&T for making Linux into a bigger success story.
04:08 < remiliascarlet> Their lawsuit against BSD in the early 1990s but the entire Unix space on hold, and since GNU/Linux is not Unix, they were unhindered by the effects of that lawsuit.
04:09 < remiliascarlet> s/but/put
04:09 < h3at> dont you think linux grow for its own cause
04:09 < nij-> sad
04:09 < nij-> But really, how about today at this moment?
04:09 < nij-> Sure, linue community is larger.
04:10 < nij-> But is that going to cause much pain to bsd users?
04:11 < remiliascarlet> I don't think it's really a problem. Now with Linux going more or less downhill in many aspects, a lot of veteran Linux users including myself have been going more into the direction of the BSD's.
04:12 < remiliascarlet> I see a common trend that long time Windows users are moving to Linux in droves because Windows sucks now, and long time Linux users are moving to the BSD's in droves because Linux sucks now.
04:13 < remiliascarlet> In the end, humans are always either moving to greener grass, or sticking to the rotten soil they're most familiar with.
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04:14 < nij-> Do you find yourself missing packages, and have to compile from source often?
04:15 < remiliascarlet> And unlike with Windows code, Linux code is relatively easy to port to BSD.
04:15 < nij-> If that's so, how do you handle the version conflict problem.
04:16 < remiliascarlet> The last Linux distro I used before coming to BSD was (technically still is, because I still use Linux for gaming) CRUX, which is a source-based distro, so I'm used to having to compile everything anyway.
04:16 < remiliascarlet> So from my perspective, I have to compile on BSD by myself much less than I had to on Linux.
04:21 < nij-> Why do you like doing that on your own?
04:21 < nij-> I mean.. having a working package manager is handy isn't it.
04:21 < nij-> It saves you much time.
04:21 < remiliascarlet> Maybe if one day I manage to get Steam working on FreeBSD using its Linuxulator, I can drop Linux altogether.
04:22 < remiliascarlet> nij-: Learning experience mostly. The side effect is that you really get to dispise software bloat.
04:25 < h3at> why so many so-called cloud machines use linux, can you explain
04:30 < nij-> lol
04:30 < nij-> You get angry, further away from the people.
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04:42 < vortexx> OpenBSD has close to 12 000 packages available on amd64, there's only a few missing.Probably Discord and Steam are some of the most prominent
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04:43 < vortexx> writing your own port for that program you compile from source is supposedly fairly easy too
04:43 < remiliascarlet> Discord and Steam are both proprietary software, so unless their own developers port to OpenBSD, it'll never happen.
04:43 < vortexx> once you've got a port you can submit it and maybe become it's maintainer so it becomes a lot less of a load
04:44 < vortexx> remiliascarlet: of course
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04:44 < remiliascarlet> h3at: Linux is more popular, so more chance you'd run Linux on somebody else's machines.
04:44 < vortexx> back when OpenBSD had the linux compatility layer I never saw the use...
04:45 < remiliascarlet> It had?
04:45  * remiliascarlet used OpenBSD for the first time from version 7.1.
04:45 < thrig> /proc was removed after that bitrotted
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05:00 < h3at> linux has new pf. openbsd does not, i think
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05:01 < martian67> there is no pf on linux
05:01 < martian67> openbsd is the upstream for pf, by definition it has "new pf"
05:01 < thrig> linux has gone through a bunch of firewalls, though
05:01 < remiliascarlet> Linux used to have iptables, nowadays it has nftables.
05:02 < remiliascarlet> Or ufw if you're on Ubuntu.
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06:51 < avemestr> Electron apps are also absent on OpenBSD. For some reason people just don't see the benefit of implementing text editors as web pages. Wonder why /s
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06:59 < quinq> s/web page/javascript hell/
07:00 < quinq> At work, youngsters in other teams use Microsoft IDE
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07:00 < quinq> They usually spawn several node.js precesses that each take more than 2GB memory
07:00 < zelest> ElectonJS in it's glory!
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07:05 < quinq> \o/
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07:22 < remiliascarlet> avemestr: NodeJS support in OpenBSD in general is pretty lacking. Tried to install PeerTube on OpenBSD the other day, I just couldn't.
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07:23 < remiliascarlet> But yeah, you got 3 types of developers: good developers, average developers, and Javascript developers.
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07:37 < quinq> remiliascarlet, not nice!!
07:37 < quinq> (maybe true though)
07:38 < zelest> I wouldn't call JS devs too bad tbh.. depends entirely on the project though... but seeing that a lot of it is non-blocking and the thought process differs a lot from other languages, I'd say they're quite good.
07:38 < zelest> But the npm-everything-people and the single-page-application people.. geeez..
07:38 < zelest> There's different levels in hell :)
07:53 < remiliascarlet> It's very rare to find any JS developer that doesn't overtly rely on NPM unless they've been coding in JS before NPM became a thing.
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07:54 < zelest> True
07:54 < zelest> I'm still amazed that things like https://www.npmjs.com/package/is-odd has 444k downloads weekly. :D
07:54 < renaud> not really worse than those who only give instructions to install their software using docker
07:54 < zelest> It really makes me believe in thu human race.
07:55 < remiliascarlet> Kinda the same can be said about PHP developers. The only ones who can make stuff without a framework are those who have been coding in PHP before the 2010s.
07:55 < zelest> remiliascarlet, o/
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07:56 < remiliascarlet> renaud: I'm not a fan of cope containers either. I don't mind them giving install instructions for Docker, but if those are the only instructions, I'm no longer interested.
07:58 < lts> Just waiting for the really big supply chain attacks via docker hubs and npm/homebrew/pip/etc
07:59 < renaud> also the "curl http://somerandom.url/stuff.sh | bash"....
07:59 < remiliascarlet> lts: Exactly what I'm warning about for years, already happened multiple times before, and still nobody listens.
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08:00 < renaud> for many people now, unix is only linux and some come from windows dev scene
08:01 < remiliascarlet> Most of them are that dog in a burning building saying "this is fine".
08:03 < renaud> I prefer the guy falling from a building, and when passing in front every window he says "for now, it's fine"
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11:06 < fishmongler> hi, is there a way to make httpd "ghost" a connection instead of doing a "block drop"?
11:09 < fishmongler> that is, stop replying to a client (such as a malicious bot) entirely without bothering to even hang up nicely, hopefully making the bot think the server is just down
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11:23 < nij->  
11:23 < nij-> Is it normal that the first boot after installation would take more time then usual?
11:24 < sibiria> yes
11:24 < nij-> Good. I thought something is wrong in my installation process.
11:25 < sibiria> man rc.firsttime
11:25 < nij-> Second booting.. still gets stuck "reordering: ld.so libc libcrypto sshd"
11:25 < sibiria> that happens on every boot
11:26 < nij-> Hmm.. it's taking more than 1 minute now.
11:26 < nij-> ok, see the login prompt.
11:26 < nij-> 1 minute is usual?
11:26 < sibiria> are you doing something silly such as running openbsd from USB flash drive or microSD?
11:26 < nij-> I don't know what I'm doing.. running it on UTM/QEMU over macos.
11:27 < nij-> I installed it from install73
11:27 < nij-> install73.img
11:27 < sibiria> 1 minute sounds a bit too long for virtualization, and even emulation, when on regular storage
11:28 < nij-> It's virtualization.
11:28 < nij-> Let me time it again.
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11:30 < nij-> From entering reboot to see >boot (15 seconds), from seeing >boot to login 58 seconds.
11:30 < nij-> :(
11:30 < nij-> Slower than my grandpa's machine booting windows.
11:31 < IcePic> nij-: does it have very little ram?
11:32 < IcePic> perhaps the lib and kernel reordering makes it swap
11:32 < nij-> 4GB
11:33 < nij-> swap?
11:33 < nij-> is that too small?
11:33 < sibiria> no, 4gb is more than plenty
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11:35 < fishmongler> stupid idea: if this is virtualized and the reordering needs entropy, could it be an underrun of some sort related to that?
11:35 < IcePic> fishmongler: nah, obsd random doesn't block
11:36 < sibiria> not on openbsd. it's not like linux
11:36 < fishmongler> good to know
11:36 < IcePic> I think linux has a non-blocking mode now also
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11:44 < remiliascarlet> IcePic: I too can confirm that OpenBSD is in fact not Linux.
11:44 < remiliascarlet> Fuck, I meant to reply to sibiria.
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11:52 < nij-> Hmm.. ok I'm going on a trip for days.
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11:52 < nij-> I will look into this after coming back.
11:53 < nij-> Any other idea, please ask the bot to leave me a msg. Thx!
11:54 < nij-> (THere are multiple disk partitions. I chose the default layout (around 8~12 ish))
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13:07 < luna_> https://www.bsdnow.tv/551
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13:16 < cat5> no
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13:17 < nij-> I'm running openbsd on qemu in my macbook m2, giving it 4GB of memory. Yet it still takes 1 minute to boot (too long). Could anyone please take a look at my setting? https://bpa.st/HDQQ
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13:19 < sibiria> i think i'd remove 85% of that and just stick to the basics
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13:23 < sibiria> e.g. -cpu cortex-a57 -M virt -m 4G -bios edk-aarch64-code.fd, and for devices plain virtio-blk-device without any extra options for compression etc.
13:24 < sibiria> and maybe -serial stdio when invoking qemu, so you can install and set things up for ssh access later
13:24 < nij-> hmm I'm actually using UTM, which generates the config for me.
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13:25 < renaud> is qemu HW accelerated on arm macs?
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13:26 < sibiria> even on emulation it shouldn't take 1-2 minutes to boot. i have arm64 emulated with qemu on x86 (far slower than arm mac) and it's fast
13:27 < nij-> Yeah.. something is wrong.
13:27 < nij-> sibiria You mentioned those options. Do you suggest that I remove them and try again?
13:28 < sibiria> i *suspect* some of those options are what's causing it. if you want i can give you the command line i use for qemu later today
13:28 < renaud> also, are you sure you are using native qemu and not emulated rosetta?
13:29 < sibiria> in essence i just specify virtualization mode, cpu, memory, and then the block devices. nothing else
13:29 < nij-> Yes please, sibiria. I may be offline. Is there a way to send msg here?
13:29 < nij-> renaud I'm using UTM.
13:29 < sibiria> no, irc has no "voice mail"
13:29 < sibiria> you need to remain here to receive messages
13:30 < nij-> There are bots in other channels. Guess not here.
13:30 < sibiria> no service bot here
13:30 < nij-> Gotcha
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13:32 < cat5> wonder if I could write a client side thing that checks to see if a user is online every now and again and then if they're online sends them a message
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13:43 < nij-> Hmm maybe I shouldn't have used virtualization?
13:43 < nij-> But I need to use emulation?
13:43 < nij-> I'm on macbook m2. I'm not sure which one I can use.
13:44 < sibiria> virt should work fine. feel free to try emulation
13:44 < sibiria> try: -cpu cortex-a57
13:46 < sibiria> i'd remove usb- and audio devices as well
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13:48 < renaud> there is also vmware fusion free for macos, which might be more straightforward
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13:49 < nij-> cortex-a57 doesn't work)
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13:49 < nij-> It's taking so much time at "reordering: ld.so libc libcrypto..."
13:50 < nij-> Could it be that I have never "completed" the first boot, which is slower?
13:50 < renaud> it does reordering at each boot
13:50 < sibiria> the first boot is slower only because it's running a few things once. disk i/o itself isn't slower
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13:56 < nij-> The config is smaller now but it's still slow. https://bpa.st/P5YA
13:57 < nij-> Could it be that I'm using serial, but not a display?
13:57 < nij-> (I followed a tutorial online. All of my other VM running linux has no such problem and they're using display instead of serial.)
13:57 < sibiria> no
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14:00 < nij-> Here's the config for my debian VM.. it's longer but it works :( https://bpa.st/CDUQ
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14:06 < nij-> Is the boot process logged somewhere with timestamp? Maybe posting that would be useful..?
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14:20 < cat5> df -h I see my home partition: (size)824G   (used) 266G   (avail) 517G. If I subtract 226 from 824 I get 558. What accounts for this discrepancy?
14:21 < cat5> subtract 266 rather
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14:33 < nij-> Could it be that I have too many disk partitions?
14:35 < IcePic> no, the mount of other partitions would not affect how one partition space is spent
14:36 < IcePic> the a-mount of other ..
14:37 < thrig> 5% is generally reserved for root, for one
14:37 < sibiria> cat5: reserved percentage. you can tune this
14:37 < sibiria> man tunefs
14:37 < sibiria> 5% of 824G is the difference you're seeing
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14:46 < nij-> Hmm..
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15:01 < nij-> How do I configure boot process to show timestamp for each step?
15:01 < nij-> Should I create /etc/boot.config? Or /etc/vm.conf?
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15:21 < cat5> thanks, not sure why I didn't think of that
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15:26 < cat5> that is about root. didn'tk now about tunefs
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19:51 < GnarledHorn> Hello channel. I'm updating a project to use bsd.prog.mk in the Makefile. I am ab  able to set the prefix to /usr/local and BINDIR to /usr/local/bin, but setting MANDIR to /usr/local/man doesn't seem to work correctly. `make install` fails when it tries to install the man page to /usr/local/man1 (rather than /usr/local/man/man1)
19:51 < GnarledHorn> I'm sure I'm doing something wrong. I read /usr/share/mk/bsd.README and I'm scrolling through bsd.prog.mk
19:54 < GnarledHorn> This is the Makefile -> https://sw.gy/makefile.html
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20:27 < nij-> sibiria?
20:27 < nij-> Are you still there? I'm trying my luck for your command.
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20:31 < sibiria> nij-: apologies! i forgot
20:31 < sibiria> give me a minute
20:33 < nij-> No worries! I will be online for another 10 minutes :)
20:35 < sibiria> nij-: https://dpaste.org/0rHvC
20:35 < sibiria> this is how invoke for installating
20:35 < sibiria> installing*
20:35 < sibiria> and then i just remove the drive spec holding the miniroot install kernel once i'm done
20:36 < nij-> Thanks!
20:37 < sibiria> as an alternative, you can also put the full install image in place of the install kernel. same same
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20:38 < nij-> Is qemu-system-aarch64 a binary I need to get somewhere else?
20:39 < nij-> I'm currently using UTM, which is a wrapper of qemu. ))
20:39 < sibiria> that would be the qemu build that emulates aarch64, because i don't have an arm mac. in your case i suspect things would work fine using the regular qemu executable you have now
20:40 < nij-> The command exported from UTM also starts with qemu-system-aarch64
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20:43 < sibiria> the architecture in the executable filename is the target. so that's the correct one to use if you wish to virtualize on an arm mac
20:44 < nij-> got it. thanks!
20:44 < nij-> I will try it tonight after getting wifi.
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20:49 < lus> Hi, Is there something wrong with my filesystem --- https://pastebin.com/huY0XXG5 ?
20:50 < uwharrie> lus: it's full?
20:50 < phy1729> I'm guessing you just did doas dd if=... of=/dev/...
20:50 < sibiria> dat dev file THICC, yo
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20:51 < uwharrie> "why hasn't OpenBSD switched to use the same drive names as Linux?"
20:51 < lus> this is installed on RPi with a 32G scandisk SD card. 
20:51 < lus> it shouldn't be full! The first lines says it's full yes?
20:51 < phy1729> yep
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20:52 < lus> phy1729: what can I check?
20:52 < sibiria> ls -lh /dev/
20:52 < thrig> didn't we tell you about this recently?
20:53 < phy1729> Most of the time this is due to making a file in /dev and thinking you were copying it onto a disk device
20:53 < sibiria> see if there's something that's several hundreds of mb large
20:55 < lus>  -rw-r--r--  1 root    wheel        916455424 Mar 19 20:39 sd1  <--- this is what I did last time.
20:55 < sibiria> great. kill it
20:55 < lus> so I should rm sd1?
20:55 < sibiria> with fire
20:57 < lus> Now it's better ---> /dev/sd0a      986M    111M    826M    12%    / 
20:58 < lus> thanks guys, that's all for today ;)
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21:08 < kroovy> GnarledHorn: I'm not 100% sure, but I think your problem might be solved by including bsd.man.mk
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21:26 < vortexx> for nij- when he gets back, the only way I can think of timestamping boot is to add /bin/date lines to /etc/rc through the boot process
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21:32 < thrig> or modify the kernel and then ...
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21:48 < finkfox> can you recommend a cheap reliable single board that is supported by openbsd, preferably with open source bios? i have an APU unit, however, it crashes now and then.
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21:53 < sibiria> finkfox: odroid h3 is fantastic, but not entirely cheap
21:53 < sibiria> on the whole you're looking at roughly twice the price of APUs
21:54 < sibiria> though not sure if it can run u-boot or so
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21:55 < finkfox> sibiria: thanks. i might also try to upgrade apu bios/firmware first, I just saw there is an update out.
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22:58 < vortexx> thrig: modifying the kernel to add timestamps is an order of magnitude bigger in difficulty and complexity compared to editing /etc/rc. Many ways to skin the cat, but only a few are worth trying
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23:04 < mechap> how is your experience running desktops on openbsd ? do you the already provided window managers (twm,fwm,cwm) ?
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23:09 < GnarledHorn> kroovy: I'll give it  alook - thank you
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23:21 < kroovy> :)
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23:39 < GnarledHorn> Removing the "MANDIR=" statement made it work correctly. I still need to explicitly set BINDIR, however
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--- Log closed Fri Mar 22 00:00:11 2024