--- Log opened Thu Apr 04 00:00:30 2024
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00:31 < pardis> it's dated April 8 for 7.4 too
00:31 < pardis> probably just a mistake
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01:12 < phy1729> If you check the archives pretty sure you'll find more examples of predated errata espically before a release officially happens but the tag already exists.
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05:30 < Lucas6023> Miniontoby: the config you shared is for the responder. The changes I was suggesting were always for the initiator.
05:33 < lts> Are there any downsides for using "modulate state" with outgoing TCP connections? (ref. pf.conf)
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06:41 < IcePic> lts: in princple no, it is not like syncookies or such, it just adds a slight rewrite on the way out, less cpu that doing nat and generally keeping state.
06:42 < lts> Right, thanks. A bit of a surprise it's not the default then
06:43 < IcePic> I think it was more important 20+ years ago, when you were likelier to have an old SunOS box behind your obsd fw and you knew it would have crap tcp sequences
06:44 < IcePic> lcamtuf did the science on this around the time of obsd 2.x https://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/oldtcp/tcpseq.html
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06:52 < lts> Impressive
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07:04 < IcePic> lts: so two things have probably changed since then, 1. OSes got better, so few will have the bad tcp stacks, and related 2. Old OSes are not in use at all in the same manner since "everything" is linux today and no irix,sunos,hpux or macos9 behind the fws.
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14:40 < Miniontoby> (Oops wrote it two times by accident)
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15:25 < Miniontoby> having some problems with getting logged in here, so yeah for now back to my old client...
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15:28 < remiliascarlet> SNAX_74: "Who really runs NetBSD anyway ?" Apparently, a lot of people on the UnitedBSD forum do.
15:30 < uuaaeeii> People who run NetBSD are good folk of gold character and are not to be trifled with.
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15:53 < MiniontobyPI> Finally here
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16:05 < MiniontobyPI> Lucas6023: was the config I sent helpful?
16:05 < remiliascarlet> uuaaeeii: Which is a common side effect of a tiny community. The fewer the users, the nicer they tend to be. The more users, the more toxic the community.
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16:08 < Lucas6023> MiniontobyPI: yes, and I replied earlier
16:08 < Lucas6023> 05:30 <Lucas6023> Miniontoby: the config you shared is for the responder. The changes I was suggesting were always for the initiator.
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16:15 < uuaaeeii> success is for the doomed.
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16:25 < miah> success often means you can run doom.
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16:26 < uuaaeeii> yeah. 
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16:33 < remiliascarlet> I actually tried NetBSD a while ago, it's very buggy on a IdeaPad, but works nicely on a ThinkPad. I don't see myself daily driving it anytime soon though, I'm more than satisfied with OpenBSD.
16:38 < armin> remiliascarlet: Performance might be a driving factor, afterall, I believe NBSD is still a bit faster, and with the last 10.0 release there should have been even more performance gains, so that could well be worth testing, but I'm happy with OpenBSD, too.
16:39 < lts> At this point speed is irrelevant, logistics is everything
16:39 < armin> lts: Depends on the computer, if all you got is some 15 years old X220, well.
16:40 < Neutron7> mostly I wanted to learn some c.... and find big tech sometimes evil, the security approach was appealing.  Overall I like OpenBSD, and have learned from it....
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16:43 < armin> Neutron7: I'm using UNIX computers since 1994 now and I still struggle with "the work side" of it all myself, I'm more than happy using something like OpenBSD on a 15 years old Thinkpad, but seeing all the buzzword hype going on in the IT industry isn't accelerating my train of thought in any way.
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16:50 < remiliascarlet> armin: Yes, I noticed that NetBSD is really performant, although I didn't really feel much difference between 9.3 and 10.0.
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16:51 < remiliascarlet> Maybe one day OpenBSD will have a package manager written in C instead of Perl though.
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16:51 < fro> maybe you'll write it
16:52 < armin> remiliascarlet: I hope it never will, pkg_add is blatantly fast, it works, it works WELL, and it's hackable³².
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16:52 < armin> remiliascarlet: Heck I even wrote a "pkg" wrapper script around it just to be able to use it in a halfway normal way, but that's working so well that I don't see *any* need to change the underlyings.
16:52 < remiliascarlet> armin: I'm actually running OpenBSD on a T400 as my daily driver, no complaints regarding performance. Except of course the fact that pkg_add is slow.
16:53 < armin> remiliascarlet: https://codeberg.org/armin/snippets/raw/branch/master/pkg
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16:53 < armin> remiliascarlet: this here is what I use for basic package management on OpenBSD
16:53 < remiliascarlet> I also have OpenBSD on a ThinkPad T43, and that's notably slower.
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16:54 < armin> remiliascarlet: pkg_add is not slow by any measure, what are you referencing to?
16:54 < remiliascarlet> On own experience.
16:54 < armin> O.O
16:54 < armin> remiliascarlet: compared to?
16:54 < armin> remiliascarlet: My impression is that it's blatantly fast, especially considering how it's built.
16:54 < remiliascarlet> Compared to pkg on FreeBSD, pkgin on NetBSD, XBPS on Void, Pacman on Arch BTW.
16:55 < armin> remiliascarlet: gotcha, I'm the developer of vpm on Void btw (shameless self promo, sorry!).
16:55 < remiliascarlet> It is faster than apt on Debian and especially dnf on Fedora though.
16:55 < armin> remiliascarlet: The thing with Void is that they have an SSH server running by default with well known credentials in the base installation image.
16:56 < fro> what does that have to do with package management
16:56 < armin> fro: nothing?
16:56 < lts> I have to confess void's init scripts were such that I couldn't figure them out
16:57 < remiliascarlet> What OS doesn't come with an SSH server these days?
16:57 < lts> Windows
16:57 < armin> remiliascarlet: With a *known* user/pass, in the *installer*, enabled and running by default?
16:57 < armin> remiliascarlet: Excuse me?
16:57 < remiliascarlet> Yeah, that's indeed stupid.
16:58 < uuaaeeii> things working is so cool
16:58 < armin> uuaaeeii: That becomes a problem as soon as they work for not just you.
16:59 < uuaaeeii> good hands and quality work boots. 
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17:01 < armin> That's just the one thing that's lacking for me on OpenBSD, automation possibilities, I'm happy with doing 99% of stuff I can in just BASH/zsh, but hm, sometimes I get lost.
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17:17 < echelon> does AD integration still work this way? https://serverfault.com/questions/20202/authenticating-openbsd-against-active-directory
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17:20 < IcePic> echelon:  I think it should work like that yes
17:20 < echelon> thanks
17:21 < IcePic> as the page says, the heimdal stuff is the same on more or less all unices
17:31 < byteskeptical> echelon: haven't had to use ad on obsd box for a few years now, condolences
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17:32 < echelon> it's a learning opportunity
17:34 < A1ice> https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Download who changed the hardware install support link to 7.5, it's 404
17:34 < A1ice> https://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/7.5/powerpc64/INSTALL.powerpc64
17:35 < A1ice> wtf is it
17:35 < IcePic> A1ice: just hold your breath for a short while more and it'll start working
17:36 < A1ice> you guys will update to 7.5 for just soon?
17:36 < vortexx> lts: Windows has SSH server, just not enabled by default
17:36 < lts> Oh?
17:37 < miah> ad/kerb is fun. i usually skip the kerb part and just do ldap. probably gonna get haxed. but it works =)
17:38 < IcePic> miah: I came from AFS so I liked the krb5 stuff more than ldap
17:39 < CowboyNeal> $ uname -a
17:39 < CowboyNeal> OpenBSD conant.cowboyneal.org 7.5 GENERIC#79 amd64
17:39 < CowboyNeal> it's up
17:40 < IcePic> "imagine a beowulf cluster of those"
17:41 < miah> lol
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17:46 < uuaaeeii> I use the term beowulf cluster liberally and they hire me
17:50 < miah> s/beowulf/kubernetes
17:51 < pony> I only change when the artwork has updated
17:51 < pony> that is the official indication of a release ;)
17:52 < uuaaeeii> good times ahead
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18:25 < echelon> hi, i just noticed that 2 of my cpu cores are showing as "offline" in htop, is that because of cpu scaling?
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18:26 < avemestr> sysctl hw.smt
18:27 < echelon> hw.smt=0
18:28 < echelon> what's it mean?
18:28 < avemestr> Hyper-Threading is disabled.
18:29 < echelon> should it be?
18:29 < avemestr> If you do "doas sysctl hw.smt=1" htop will probably report all as online.
18:29 < echelon> is there a reason it does this out of the box?
18:29 < avemestr> echelon: The Spectre and/or Meltdown vulnerabilities.
18:30 < echelon> oh ok
18:30 < echelon> has it detected that my cpu is vulnerable then?
18:31 < avemestr> Nope, it just defaults to off.
18:31 < echelon> ok
18:31 < echelon> thanks
18:31 < avemestr> echelon: What Greg Kroah-Hartman thinks of OpenBSDs approach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI3YE3Jlgw8
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18:35 < avemestr> You can always turn it on once to see if things work better for you. Or permanently by adding a line with "hw.smt=1" to /etc/sysctl.conf. In my experience it has neglieble consequence either way, but some workloads might work better with it on or off.
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18:38 < sibiria> worth remembering that HT isn't the same as 2x total performance
18:38 < echelon> well, my plan is to deploy it on a server that only does ssh tunneling for untrusted users, i'm wondering if i should just get a system with only 2 cores if i'm going to leave hyperthreading anyway
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18:38 < echelon> deploy openbsd*
18:39 < echelon> leave ht off anyway*
18:39 < miah> if youre only doing ssh tunneling, i dont think HT is going to make a drastic difference being disabled
18:40 < echelon> it's high volume though
18:40 < uuaaeeii> still
18:40 < echelon> ok
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18:41 < sibiria> even the most parallel-optimized workloads out there get about 15-20% extra performance at best from HT
18:41 < uuaaeeii> I'd say that is the last of your worries. 
18:41 < sibiria> it's not magic, and it doesn't work for every scenario
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18:42 < ssm_> single thread performance is slightly better with smt disabled iirc
18:42 < ssm_> more than enough reason for me to want to disable it
18:42 < uuaaeeii> I did not realize that
18:42 < ssm_> especially with smt{4,8,16,etc}
18:42 < sibiria> some CPUs display that behavior. i think it's a while since i personally observed it
18:42 < uuaaeeii> neat
18:43 < sibiria> saw it with early 2000s intel core i-stuff, but i haven't seen it with modern AMD Zen
18:43 < sibiria> early 2010s*
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18:46 < ssm_> ah geez. guess I'll just take not having a whole class of security vulnerabilities as the reason then
18:47 < thrig> holy attack surface, batman!
18:47 < sibiria> smt has a lot of benefit if you have a single-core CPU (who does these days?)
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18:47 < sibiria> slight benefit with dual-core - but those, too, are increasingly rare
18:48 < sibiria> at 4 cores you kinda have enough parallel capacity. no solid point to it anymore until you get up to massive core counts with massive parallel work
18:48 < sibiria> e.g. hypervisor host etc.
18:50 < sibiria> all the smt vulnerability patches consume too much performance compared to just disabling it and *not* running those patches
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19:12 < MiniontobyPI> Lucas6023:I shared the initiator as well
19:13 < MiniontobyPI> in a later message
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19:23 < Lucas6023> doesn't seem so. I can only find a single termbin link. Can you reshare?
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20:10 < echelon> anyone have a recommended cli password manager? i've been using https://www.passwordstore.org but i don't want to have to install bash.
20:10 < RobbieAB> You could reimplement the core logic in ksh?
20:11 < RobbieAB> I mean, it's not a massively complicated shell script.
20:11 -!- Menchers is now known as RadicalOrchid
20:11 < RobbieAB> BTW, that is the one I would recommend.
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20:11 < echelon> fair point
20:12 < RobbieAB> Also, I would probably rate bash as a relatively light dependency in the grand scheme of things.
20:12 < echelon> yeah, i suppose
20:12 < thrig> I had a very low opinion of bash, and then shellshock happened
20:13 < RobbieAB> Hey, I am not arguing for bash here, just that one tool.
20:13 < sibiria> can bash statically link with libc these days?
20:15 < echelon> https://github.com/robxu9/bash-static/blob/master/build.sh
20:17 < sibiria> so not natively then
20:17 < uwharrie> https://github.com/dylanaraps/pash
20:20 < RobbieAB> uwharrie: Nice. :)
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20:39 < ssm_> I feel like I find bash dependencies in the least-expected places, like wireguard-tools
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20:44 < pardis> wireguard-tools? on my OpenBSD?
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20:46 < tux0r> echelon / uwharrie: gopass exists
20:49 < tux0r> re:bash, i never understood why nobody dared to question the "de-facto GNU standard" bash. i mean, it is a typical GNU "utility" - a good, old idea shoved into dependency hell with a new, weird haircut. but even without shellshock, there were "better" tools around. is that all that GNU people can do?
20:49 < echelon> transit passes for the dallas, tx area?
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20:51 < echelon> tux0r: cool, it works for teams
20:51 < Bradipo> But will Teams continue to work on OpenBSD?
20:51 < echelon> so do users share the same password store, or do they replicate the passwords to their individual stores?
20:51 < tux0r> lol.
20:51 < Bradipo> I've been getting a notice in Teams lately...
20:52 < zelest> Bradipo, slap a /v2/ at the end of the URL.
20:52 < tux0r> well, (go)pass basically uses "a monorepo" (gopass supports fossil, at least).
20:52 < echelon> what's fossil
20:52 < Bradipo> I see this: "Classic Teams will soon be unavailable for use. To use the new Teams, update your browser to meet requirements or contact your IT admin. See requirements"
20:53 < Bradipo> zelest: You say if I put in https://teams.microsoft.com/v2 that it will go away?
20:53 < Albright> Fossil is a DVCS made by the SQLite people
20:53 < echelon> oh cool
20:53 < thrig> fossil technology!
20:53 < Albright> Like Git but with some GitHub features built in 
20:54 < zelest> Bradipo, the "omg! teams classic is dying!" notice will go away yes
20:55 < Bradipo> Trying... I put it in, but it redirected to https://teams.microsoft.com/_, but maybe it has cached something.
20:56 < tux0r> Albright: like git but with a sane UX
20:56 < tux0r> and good license
20:57 < Bradipo> And sane CLI.
20:59 < echelon> what percentage of ports use unveil/pledge?
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21:03 < phy1729> 1.45% for pledge 0.23% unveil
21:04 < phy1729> Probably a bit higher because I overcounted Makefiles
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21:08 < thrig> one can also wrap problematic ports with a pledge/unveil exec wrapper
21:09 < Bradipo> zelest: Doesn't seem to work here.  No matter where in "the end of the URL" I place /v2/
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21:18 < Lucas6023> echelon: there is https://github.com/rnpnr/spm/blob/master/spm
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21:23 < echelon> Lucas6023: thanks
21:23 < echelon> i wasn't considering the shareability of passwords between users, which is why i'm looking at gopass
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21:25 < sibiria> Fossil is pretty good from what i've heard. but if someone wants git and the github experience, there's Gitea
21:25 < thrig> lastpass - the last password you'll ever keep secret
21:25 < echelon> lol
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21:25 < Bradipo> I use both Git and Fossil daily.  I prefer Fossil because it seems harder to get into "sticky situations".
21:27 < thrig> it's been about 20 years so maybe I should try some other VCS than git
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21:27 < tux0r> i still haven't adopted git as my primary VCS and I won't.
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21:28 < jtbx> tux0r: what do you use and why? cvs?
21:28 < tux0r> nobody wants "the github experience" :x
21:28 < Bradipo> Prior to Fossil, I used CVS.
21:28 < Albright> I would like to seriously use Fossil for a project at some point but after like fifteen years of using Git it's like muscle memory at this point. Trying to use anything else feels like trying to learn to walk on my hands
21:28 < tux0r> jtbx: an unholy mix of darcs, sccs, fossil and some mercurial
21:28 < Bradipo> I still use cvs occasionally where the project was originally in cvs---because I don't want to take the time to convert it to Fossil.
21:28 < tux0r> i wish i had kept an svn server tbh
21:29 < Bradipo> Fortunately I never got into svn. :-)
21:29 < Bradipo> I did try darcs and mg though.
21:29 < thrig> svn ate my files
21:29 < tux0r> i used svn before mercurial appeared
21:29 < Bradipo> darcs was... very... odd.
21:29 < tux0r> before that, cvs, but deleting files is a feature :p
21:29 < Bradipo> Seemed to have some cool concepts, but I failed to find a practical use.
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21:30 < tux0r> darcs is great for multi-contributor stuff. cherry picking as the only way to merge.
21:30 < thrig> rcs is almost overkill for what I need
21:30 < Bradipo> Haha, I use rcs for my pf.conf config on the firewall.
21:31 < tux0r> i use SCCS for my pf.conf. i won.
21:31 < Bradipo> Is sccs in base?
21:31 < tux0r> no, but SCCS is the standard utility according to posix. rcs is not.
21:31 < tux0r> ask theo why it is not.
21:32 < tux0r> rcs is sccs made worse, ymmv
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21:57 < mischief> is 7.5 amd64 ready to go?
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21:58 < tux0r> is it on openbsd.org? if not, no.
21:58  * ssm_ taps the sign
21:59 < pony> it is
22:00 < ssm_> pony: still says 7.4 for me
22:00 < pony> the artwork hasn't changed
22:00 < pony> the downloads are there
22:00 < pony> but you're right in thinking that it's not official until the artwork has changed :)
22:01 < pony> I always wait for the artwork!
22:01 < ssm_> until openbsd.org changes to 7.5 or release notification is sent to announce@, updating to 7.5 is unsupported, even if it works
22:02 < ssm_> source: common sense
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22:02 < tux0r> additionally, "the downloads" which "are there" are not necessarily identical to what will be "the release"
22:03 < thrig> gotta get those extra m4 configs added to the release tarballs
22:03 < pony> ahh, I see
22:03 < pony> this is why I always wait for the artwork, *nods*
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22:04 < ludovicus> wow, good to know
22:06 < tux0r> look, there's already syspatch 001 for 7.5 :) https://www.openbsd.org/errata75.html
22:06 < pony> *@ hard at work :)
22:07 < ssm_> no time on -release, straight to -stable
22:08 < echelon> why is w3m being compiled just to install a go application
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22:15 < echelon> tux0r: https://paste.ee/r/iwMvF any ideas why gopass won't build?
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22:16 < tux0r> does not look like a gopass problem
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22:20 < ssm_> echelon: it appears your curl is the wrong version
22:20 < echelon> eh what should i do
22:20 < ssm_> have you updated your packages without updating your ports tree? is this on -current?
22:21 < echelon> use curl from ports instead of using pkg_add?
22:21 < echelon> ssm_: 7.4
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22:22 < echelon> i did "ftp https://cdn.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/$(uname -r)/{ports.tar.gz,SHA256.sig}" just today
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22:35 < echelon> anything i can try?
22:35 < echelon> Update candidates: curl-8.6.0 -> curl-8.6.0
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22:56 < echelon> should i just do pkg_add git?
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22:58 < ssm_> echelon: had to go out, sorry for late response; faq 5 might be of interest
22:59 < echelon> build openbsd from source?
22:59 < ssm_> also what I think I had happen sometimes is ports will install old out of date ports that are in ${PORTSROOT}/packages if it finds them; when I upgrade my ports tree I fully clear out those directories
22:59 < ssm_> as well as distfiles
22:59 < ssm_> it takes a while but you can also run make clean=all\ dist from portsroot
22:59 < ssm_> which should do the same thing assuming you haven't updated yet
23:00 < echelon> i didn't have any old copy of ports, this is on a fresh install
23:01 < ssm_> I've never downloaded ports the way you did (I just use CVS), maybe the version you downloaded is for 7.4 -release instead of -stable?
23:01 < ssm_> the faq I provided can show you how to update your ports using cvs to a specific tag
23:02 < echelon> it's tarball from here https://cdn.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/7.4/
23:04 < echelon> should i be using stable or release then
23:05 < ssm_> stable is release with patches, you want stable
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23:10 < echelon> # cat /usr/ports/CVS/Tag
23:10 < echelon> TOPENBSD_7_4
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--- Log closed Fri Apr 05 00:00:31 2024