--- Log opened Tue Apr 16 00:00:21 2024
--- Day changed Tue Apr 16 2024
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00:34 < cat5> thrig sluggish cursor motions! it's vi(improved)! why are you using a mouse?
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00:37 < Bradipo> cursor != mouse
00:37 < Bradipo> pointer == mouse
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00:42 < cat5> long day
00:42 < Bradipo> Indeed!
00:43 < cat5> never noticed sluggish cursor in vim, but maybe i need to hang out in vi more to see the difference
00:44 < cat5> xset r rate 300 50 in my ~/.profile makes hjkl movement speedy
00:44 < cat5> ~/.xsession rather
00:45 < cat5> though I don't use hjkl much, there's deeper navigation wizardry for these things
00:45 < Bradipo> I don't use arrows much (in vi).
00:45 < Bradipo> In fact, almost never.
00:47 < cat5> yep
00:50 < cat5> I found some vim notes I made a while back https://termbin.com/nrcn
00:50 < cat5> but probably the only cool thing in there is a couple functions at the bottom
00:51 < cat5> this needs updating, i have learned much more since then
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01:03 < mischief> my problem with vim is mostly that syntax on makes movement really terribly slow
01:03 < cat5> mischief: which method of movement?
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01:04 < mischief> normal hjkl
01:06 < cat5> hmm. maybe I'm not sensitive to this or my r rate setting for x masks it
01:07 < cat5> but im usually hopping around text by other methods
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01:08 < Bradipo> I "hop" around using whichever makes sense in the context...
01:08 < Bradipo> Sometimes W and B, sometimes /, sometimes hjkl, etc.
01:09 < Bradipo> Sometimes ctrl-a, sometimes {}, sometimes %, just depends.
01:10 < cat5> yeah, I only mean to say that I rely on skipping to next/previous word, paragraph, stuff like zt to center page at cursor line, %, and so on more than hjkl
01:10 < Bradipo> Some of these may not have the same meanging in vim as they do in vi, so if they don't work, not sure what to say. :-)
01:10 < cat5> oh pretty close, for instance w for next word or b for back a word
01:10 < Bradipo> Well, I use both w W and b B.
01:11 < cat5> right
01:11 < Bradipo> Also e E
01:11 < cat5> ^ $ reaching beginning end of line... o O insert line above below. oh man, vi/vim is a video game with endless content
01:11 < Bradipo> Yep.
01:12 < Bradipo> "xyy followed by @x
01:13 < cat5> in vim xyy would be delete a character then yank the rest of the line, i dunno what @x is
01:14 < Bradipo> Well, I didn't say xyy, I said "xyy :-)
01:15 < Bradipo> @x is one of the most useful features of vi...
01:15 < cat5> oh you're yanking the line inside ""? like yi" or something?
01:15 < Bradipo> http://man.openbsd.org/vi#@~2
01:15 < Bradipo> No.
01:16 < Bradipo> "x creates a named buffer called x, and yy yanks the current line into that buffer.
01:16 < cat5> ohhhh. damn yeah that's nice
01:16  * oldlaptop buys, at a minimum, the Plan 9 idea that the mouse is a good tool for editing
01:16 < Bradipo> Then @x executes whatever is in that buffer.
01:16 < oldlaptop> at the very least given s/mouse/trackpoint (which embeds the thing in home row for you)
01:17 < cat5> Bradipo: i'll be stealing this "xyy @x
01:17 < Bradipo> I use multiple buffers when editing...
01:17 < Bradipo> "s, "w, "h, etc...
01:17 < Bradipo> Just depends on how many places I need to remember in the file.
01:18 < Bradipo> Sorry, how many different buffers I might need.
01:19 < Bradipo> You can also do something like: "xyy 10j "xp
01:20 < Bradipo> And maybe I have multiple buffers: 10j "xp "yP
01:20 < Bradipo> That pastes x after and y before.
01:20 < cat5> ok THAT one I would actually use
01:20 < Bradipo> Of course 10j is just one kind of movement, it's more likely that I'll use /search "xp "yP n "xp "yP 
01:22 < Bradipo> That's a bit contrived because I really need another movement between the pasting of x and y.
01:22 < Bradipo> But you get the point.
01:22 < cat5> love it man
01:23 < Bradipo> After having learned a lot of vi's potential, which I've barely scraped, I learned the features of vim weren't that useful anymore.
01:23 < Bradipo> s/aped/atched/
01:23 < cat5> that's probably the direction I will end up going, I will end up revisiting the stuff I use the most in vim and seeing if there's anything I can't do in vi 
01:24 < cat5> answer will probably be "yeah i can do it in vi"
01:24 < Bradipo> Well, there are some things that vi won't do...
01:24 < Bradipo> block level copy/paste...
01:25 < Bradipo> But then, I never found much real use for it.
01:25 < cat5> useful when im doing html crap
01:25 < Bradipo> e.g. selecting a matrix of blocks in the file.
01:25 < Bradipo> Really?
01:25 < cat5> yeah, because i move stuff around on a page a lot to get things placed where I want sometimes
01:25 < Bradipo> I'm not sure how fetching (5,10)-(10,10) is a useful method for text.
01:25 < cat5> oh i misunderstood
01:26 < Bradipo> Where (x,y)-(x,y).
01:26 < Bradipo> Rather (x,y)--(m,n).
01:26 < cat5> yeah i never use that, for some reason i didnt see the word matrix and was thining of "selecting blocks of text" like visual mode etc
01:27 < Bradipo> Right, not blocks of text, blocks of characters over lines.
01:27 < cat5> maybe some insane person is doing spreadsheets in vim/ascii?
01:27 < cat5> could this be the use case
01:28 < Bradipo> Yeah, maybe.
01:29 < Bradipo> But yeah, for yanking multiple lines, I usually just mark the begin and end of the range of lines (e.g. :ka on the first line, :kb on the second line) and then use :'a,'by
01:29 < Bradipo> s/second/last/
01:29 < cat5> that's clever
01:30 < Bradipo> most people probably fidget with a mouse...
01:30 < cat5> i got this thing in my config: vnoremap <Leader>oo :w !cat \| nc termbin.com 9999<CR>
01:30 < cat5> send visually selected block of text to pastebin
01:30 < Bradipo> Well, with a mouse and a mouse enabled vim.
01:30 < Bradipo> But using a mouse slows down my typerate.
01:31 < Bradipo> Is that a map?
01:31 < cat5> yeah, <Leader> by default is \ so \oo remaps the key sequence \oo in visual mode to execute external command
01:31 < Bradipo> vi also supports maps, but I don't use them very often...
01:32 < cat5> er \oo is ramapped to do that rather
01:33 < cat5> use that all the time, i was going to also make it send the URL it returns to my clipboard so i dont have to select it to share
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01:34 < cat5> blew everyones mind at work i wrote this weird function that asks for a host then executes a script over there and then returns the output to local machine's clipboard and plays a nice little system bell sound when its complete
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01:36 < cat5> but these are people who use GNU nano so the bar to impress is low
01:36 < Bradipo> Oh my, nano is painful.
01:36 < cat5> it hurts to watch 
01:36 < Bradipo> It does.
01:37 < byteskeptical> i use -> map gp :r!xclip -o -selection clipboard
01:37 < Bradipo> Watching someone in nano hurts more than watching someone using vi who only knows vim. ;-)
01:37 < cat5> byteskeptical: i like that one
01:38 < Bradipo> You can always identify a vim user by watching them get frustrated when the arrow keys don't work as they think in edit mode. :-)
01:38 < byteskeptical> lol
01:38 < Bradipo> Now, it looks like nvi actually does support arrow keys---I'm not sure if that was always true.
01:39 < cat5> im confused, do you mean insert mode? why would you be trying to use arrow keys while inserting
01:40 < Bradipo> Because vim enables that behavior.
01:40 < Bradipo> Because all other editors in the world allow you to use arrows while editing.
01:40 < Bradipo> Personally I don't care, I don't use the arrow keys anyway.
01:41 < mischief> byteskeptical: can't you use "*Y instead
01:41 < cat5> we have normal mode, insert, visual, command, and replace modes
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01:41 < cat5> (in vim)
01:41 < cat5> arrow keys / hjkl do not work for navigatin in insert mode
01:42 < Bradipo> Precisely.
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01:42 < byteskeptical> mischief: hmmm possibly I think so
01:42 < Bradipo> I mean, of course hjkl don't work... they are characters being inserted.
01:42 < cat5> is the same in vi right
01:42 < Bradipo> But are you sure that the arrow keys don't work in vim?
01:42 < cat5> they work fine in normal mode
01:42 < Bradipo> Last time I used vim they did, but that was many years ago.
01:43 < cat5> e.g. im in insert mode and hit esc to return to normal mode and can nav with arrows
01:43 < Bradipo> I just checked...
01:43 < Bradipo> The arrow keys still work in vim while in INSERT mode.
01:43 < cat5> oh nice
01:43 < Bradipo> "work" means they navigate.
01:43 < mischief> arrows work fine for me in normal and insert
01:43 < cat5> too bad my brain is hard wired on hjkl
01:43 < Bradipo> Better if you don't get accustomed to it.
01:44 < cat5> although I do have backspace setup to do backspace things: set backspace=indent,eol,start
01:44 < Bradipo> Because if you ever try to use arrow keys in INSERT on an *true* vi, you'll get nasty control characters inserted into your text.
01:44 < cat5> yes
01:44 < cat5> i can probably drop the backspace thing at this point though since I never use it
01:48 < Bradipo> Backspace in INSERT mode?
01:53 < cat5> yeah that was some cruft left in my config from years ago, when muscle memory ocassionaly struck and I tried to delete a character with delete key
01:53 < cat5> no longer used
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01:54 < Bradipo> Ahh, that, right.
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10:04 < L29Ah> does openbsd employ xace or any other methods to isolate X clients from snooping on each other (for things like xinput2)?
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10:18 < sonya> L29Ah: pledge and unveil are used for process control. examples are firefox and chromium (afaik)
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10:42 < L29Ah> sonya: this doesn't seem to be related to access to various X features
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11:05 < sonya> L29Ah: then i misunderstood your question, sorry.. may be https://www.xenocara.org/  is what you're in.. anyway xbase75:/usr/X11R6/include/xorg/xace.h  and  xbase75:/usr/X11R6/include/xorg/xacestr.h is in, may be other things are already included also
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14:37 < tpfau> i installed openbsd 7.5 on my pws600au yesterday, downloaded ports and started an install of zsh. it's been compiling for over 20 hours now...
14:38 < sibiria> ok but why
14:38 < sibiria> you can install pre-built packages, instead of compiling them yourself
14:39 < IcePic> sibiria: pws600au is an Alpha from what I gather
14:39 < IcePic> no pkgs for those yet
14:39 < tpfau> they are terminating the openvms hobbyist program. i'm looking for something else to do with the machine. it's a very old alpha based workstation
14:39 < sibiria> oh, a rare Alphan
14:39 < sibiria> best of luck to you and your electricity bill
14:40 < tpfau> i can remember when alphas first came out. i remember how fast they were. what happened??? :)
14:40 < lts> Everything bloated
14:40 < sibiria> DEC died
14:41 < Bradipo> Speaking of bloat. It was nice to find that xpdf3 is still available as a separate package.  I don't like the new xpdf4.
14:41 < Bradipo> xpdf4 relies on qt and doesn't even work.  Most of the buttons have no icons so I have no idea what I'm clicking on.
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14:43 < IcePic> obsd 6.3 seems to have been the last release for which pkgs for alpha were built
14:43 < Bradipo> I still have a DEC Alpha... cannot get it to boot because the video isn't working.  Though it does have serial.
14:43 < tpfau> i only see 7.4 and 7.5 on the servers and neither has any alpha packages. guess i'm on my own.
14:44 < tpfau> i found a suitable video card on ebay to replace the original one that had issues
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14:47 < miah> i had some alphas in 1998 and they were slow then
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14:48 < tpfau> ports documentation mentions an app named "portslist". any idea where i can find it? i can't find it in the ports directories.
14:49 < miah> while the alpha does use a lot of electricity it also doubles as a space heater, so if you live in a cold climate it works out
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14:50 < IcePic> tpfau: I thought it could have been in /usr/ports/infrastructure/bin, but didn't find "portslist" there. 8-(
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14:52 < IcePic> its a package, but I didn't find its port..
14:52 < tpfau> i just plugged it into the power meter. it's running about 200W
14:52 < Bradipo> Heh, I should test mine.  I never wondered how much power it consumes.
14:52 < Bradipo> Does have a noisy SCSI drive though.
14:53 < miah> i miss old scsi drives because hearing the drive head function was usually a good way to determine if a computer was doing anything
14:53 < tpfau> i've had a few whiny scsi drives. the current ones i'm using aren't too bad
14:54 < miah> tpfau: which alpha do you have? i had some alphastation/200's and a multia and some others that ive forgotten about
14:54 < tpfau> meanwhile, my brand new 24 core dell system is drawing 75W but it's idle
14:54 < tpfau> i have a pws600au personal workstation
14:55 < IcePic> tpfau: I think perhaps the sqlports "port" also creates (or possibly creates) portslist, but I think for most usage of ports, you should be able to live without it, even if the ports handbook mentions it
14:55 < IcePic> I've done obsd since 2.2 or something, and never heard of it until today so..
14:55 < phy1729> databases/sqlports/Makefile:PKGNAME-list =              portslist-$V   maybe that?
14:56 < tpfau> IcePic: probably true, i've been finding what i'm looking for with 'ls -d /usr/ports/*/*<term>*'
14:56 < miah> 2.2... is that back when fdisk required you to manually calculate blocks?
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14:57 < tpfau> phy1729: that looks like it, thanks
14:58 < miah> that pws600 looks like a nice system
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14:58 < miah> definitely beefier than my /200's
15:00 < tpfau> it's not bad. i should have bought the xp1000, though. one of each was available on ebay at the time and i bought the cheaper one.
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15:01 < tpfau> i had another alpha before this one but it died. i think it might have been a 200. i remember it being horribly slow.
15:02 < miah> ya thats how i remember them, but this was decades ago at this point so everything was relatively slow
15:02 < miah> i feel like a lot of the slowness of older computers came down to the disk too
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15:03 < tpfau> the 200 had 50 pin scsi drives. the pws has 68 pin drives. the 68 pin drives are much faster. pws also has a later generation alpha chip.
15:04 < miah> indeed. sounds like a fun system to work with =)
15:04 < miah> i ended up moving cross country several times and left all my vintage computers in different states
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15:07 < IcePic> miah: depended on the drive type I guess, IDE disks before LBA had almost no info to give the OS about its size
15:07 < IcePic> miah: so you would have to do cylinders,heads,sectors to get the size right
15:07 < IcePic> miah: but I ran it mostly on sparc32 and amiga then
15:07 < IcePic> they don't have such problems :)
15:08 < miah> ya that sounds right. ~98 i was installing openbsd / netbsd on any old computer i could find. probably some old clunky 386's and 486's
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15:14 < betabug> I think a Mac IIcx was my first openbsd machine, except it wasn't really mine
15:14 < betabug> then I installed on a Quadra 700 and used that for a looooong time
15:15 < miah> nice! a friend and i put netbsd on a apple llc and ran into a fun issue because the clock was set to like 1902 and.. unix is weird when the date is before the epoch
15:16 < miah> iic? llc? looks the same in my brain
15:17 < vortexx> https://newsletter.3mdeb.com/archive/8thVzI5so/ReBpt3IZY/BLI03pS_il <-- this landed in my mailbox the other day, seems to announce UEFI support for the APU2/3/4/5/6. Has anyone tried this? Might require reinstalling OpenBSD on a GPT configured disk
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15:23 < pirateoverboard> Too bad all apu is eol 
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15:26 < miah> ya they looked like a great platform
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15:33 < vortexx> as far as OpenBSD goes, you don't really get any security advantages from booting UEFI vs MBR do you? At least not without a lot of UEFI fiddling
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15:40 < betabug> for a while I had to run calls to rdate with cron, or the time would drift a lot
15:40 < betabug> mac68k openbsd wasn't always the best supported platform I guess, some weird hardware
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15:42 < pkubaj> vortexx: i'm in 3mdeb's validation team, before that release i tried using ubuntu and debian, it worked just fine
15:42 < pkubaj> unfortunately we don't test openbsd
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15:46 < vortexx> pkubaj: ok thanks, I might give dasharo a go in the coming days just to see
15:47 < pkubaj> vortexx: it should really just work
15:47 < pkubaj> on other boards we installed freebsd, windows, they work just fine
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15:49 < vortexx> pkubaj: OpenBSD is unable to boot an MBR formated drive on UEFI, and GPT on MBR. I'll get back to you on results
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15:53 < echelon> hi, is there anything similar to setfacl in openbsd?
15:57 < thrig> I recall someone on the orange site complaining that openbsd doesn't support extended acls
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15:57 < vortexx> ffs doesn't have acls... but there's chflags, which isn't really the same at all
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15:58 < vortexx> chflags is a great way to have problems at upgrade time
15:58 < thrig> secure by default!
15:58 < thrig> oh yeah Apple had a shellshock version of bash you couldn't fix because chflags
15:59 < pkubaj> vortexx: that is openbsd's fault, not dasharo's
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16:01 < echelon> this is for a folder that exists in my home directory, so i don't think a system upgrade would be impacted
16:01 < vortexx> pkubaj: of course
16:02 < vortexx> echelon: test test and test again to be sure then
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16:03 < echelon> i'll just add the user to my group
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16:38 < avemestr> sibiria, mischief There's new Odroids available: https://www.hardkernel.com/
16:40 < avemestr> Seems OpenBSD already run on "Alder Lake" CPUs, not sure about "Alder Lake-N". The H4* Odroids seems to improve performance over H3*, but at the cost of slightly higher power consumption.
16:41 < mischief> my h2+ still pushes packets just fine, hopefully it has a long life :)
16:41 < mischief> the celeron J4115 is certainly not fast but it does the job
16:41 < avemestr> Yes, no need to upgrade just because new shiny. 
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16:42 < avemestr> I just wanted to mention the new products, since we discussed Odroids a few days ago :-)
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16:54 < vortexx> avemestr: thanks for the heads up on that, interesting.
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17:10 < avemestr> vortexx: The H2+, H3+, H4+ and H4 Ultra CPUs compared: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/3679vs4565vs5337vs5213/Intel-Celeron-J4115-vs-Intel-Pentium-Silver-N6005-vs-Intel-N97-vs-Intel-i3-N305
17:11 < avemestr> The H4+ seems slightly "squeezed" between H3+ and H4 Ultra.
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17:12 < vortexx> I'm more interested in TDP... Not super worried over performance, I'm sure it can push the 2.5Gbe interfaces to the max?
17:13 < vortexx> in OpenBSD that is, not other OSes
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17:21 < avemestr> The H3+ is probably the best in that case then.
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17:31  * sonya is happy with "Alder Lake-N95" noname notebook, though there're some rough edges
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17:35 < betabug> put some gaffer tape on those edges?
17:37 < sonya> just left'em as they are :))
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17:53 < sonya> oh.. just've read the topic.. zsh.. isn't ksh93 is a better shell for lowres hardware? if tcsh/csh is not an option..
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17:56 < avemestr> sonya: "rough edges" like "not configured" in dmesg, or?
17:56 < sonya> avemestr: cpu0: Enhanced SpeedStep 3392 MHz: speeds: 1701, 1700, 1600, 1500, 1400, 1300, 1200, 1100, 1000, 900, 800 MHz
17:56 < sonya> this^
17:57 < sonya> do you see it?
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17:57 < avemestr> The joys of "performance" and "efficiency" cores?
17:58 < sonya> N95 is capable to work from 400MHz to 3.4GHz, but.. irl (7.5) it reports range from 800 to 1.7 max
17:58 < sonya> dunno.. in win10 it works 400-3.4
17:59 < sonya> per core
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18:00 < sonya> cpu0: Intel(R) N95, 3392.18 MHz, 06-be-00, patch 0000000e
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18:06 < sonya> sorry, need to go.. bb
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18:43 < amnesiac> Hi. Why sound in os could be only single channel - like mono signal ? Even over usb sound interface.
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19:15 < ssm_> update, my rc.local is being read correctly after fixing perms
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20:15 < zorz> ///
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20:30 < echelon> so openbsd has no pre-packaged pgp utils?
20:30 < echelon> part of the base image, i mean
20:31 < sibiria> nope
20:32 < echelon> ok, maybe i'll write my own
20:32 < thrig> signify got written rather than using PGP
20:33 < echelon> yeah, i was curious why they didn't just use pgp to verify
20:34 < GnarledHorn> complexity, size of codebase, bells and whistles
20:34 < thrig> http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan-signify.html
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21:50 < unpx> Hello there, I'm trying to dual boot OpenBSD (currently 75), with Windows 10. I managed to find most information about this, but I'm now stuck at boot since I couldn't install the correct firmware
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21:51 < unpx> I'm on a Dell Precision 5530, that has just one nvme slot, that is recognized as sd0
21:51 < unpx> To recognize the install75.img I have to unplug and replug the usb stick
21:52 < unpx> I created the partition for openbsd install and installation run smootly
21:52 < vortexx> you're going to need a boot manager for that
21:52 < unpx> Now the crucial part is installing firmware since iwm is not recognized correctly
21:52 < vortexx> refind probably is easiest
21:52 < unpx> vortexx: I'm stuck even before that
21:53 < unpx> My usb stick has the .img flashed in the first MB of this 4GB stick, then I created a FAT32 partition with the firmware in it
21:53 < unpx> but I can't mount that partitiob
21:53 < unpx> Is the only solution to bring another usb stick?
21:53 < vortexx> unpx: basically you copy the BOOTX64.EFI to the EFI partition (better to create a subdir called OpenBSD) 
21:54 < vortexx> then point the boot manager at it
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21:54 < unpx> Or is there some magic combination of fdisk/disklabel so I can mount the second partition of my usb install disk?
21:54 < unpx> vortexx: please read carefully
21:55 < unpx> My problem is that I can't use wifi on laptop, so I bring innthe same usb stick two partitions, one is the install75.img, the other is a FAT32 partition
21:55 < uwharrie> where are you getting that procedure for firmware handling from?
21:56 < unpx> I can see them from fdisk, but disklabel can't see the FAT32 disk
21:56 < vortexx> unpx: are you trying to install to a USB disk or to the internal drive?
21:56 < unpx> uwharrie: I made it up since I do not have another OpenBSD to forge an img with firmware I need
21:56 < unpx> vortexx: to the internal drive
21:56 < vortexx> mount_msdos will mount the partition, it'll be sdXi 
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21:57 < unpx> vortexx: I only have a EFI partition there
21:58 < unpx> To recap
21:58 < unpx> USB with install75.img in the first partition and FAT32 with firmware in the second
21:59 < unpx> Launch bsd.rd and can't see second partition of USB stick with firmeare I need
21:59 < unpx> Does this require a second USB stick?
21:59 < vortexx> doesn't matter, all you need is install75.img to install
22:00 < vortexx> post install you can add the firmware once booted into the OS
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22:05 < echelon> how do i keep ports up to date?
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22:06 < unpx> vortexx: it won't wirhout an internet connection
22:06 < unpx> silly
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22:07 < fro> what
22:07 < uwharrie> echelon: using cvs
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22:10 < oldlaptop> unpx: installXX.(img|iso) do not require a network connection to install.
22:11 < oldlaptop> (You might want one in the fairly uncommon case where you have a site set or something. If you had such a thing you probably wouldn't in the position of asking questions like this in a channel like this - and also probably wouldn't be using installXX in the first place, but never mind)
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--- Log closed Wed Apr 17 00:00:48 2024