--- Log opened Mon Jun 03 00:00:54 2024
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01:22 < CashDash123> less of a openbsd question and more of a how do I get dtterm to place nicely with unicode fonts?
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01:57 < oldlaptop> I'm not sure where the channel is where you'd get an answer for that, but it's probably not this one.
01:57 < oldlaptop> (Other than "since when does that old junk do unicode!?")
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10:14 < Intrepid> Hi all, I've just tried unsuccessfully to use rsync to backup only new/modified files to an external backup drive, and so I'm looking to manually just cp across whatever few files I created since 30/5 ... Is there a way to list all files created or modified between specific date?? I've just tried find /path/to/dir -newerct "yyyy-mm-dd HH:mm:ss"
10:14 < Intrepid> -not -newerct "yyyy-mm-dd HH:mm:ss+1" but it spits out an error..
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10:16 < Intrepid> error is "find: -newerct: unknown option    <--- whats the equivalent argument to use in OpenBSD?
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10:18 < sibiria> unfortunately openbsd's find is not as evolved as linux'
10:19 < Intrepid> ahhh Sibiria,  just the man for the job .-)
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10:19 < sibiria> you'll have to use the functions that take just a number of days as argument
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10:19 < sonya>  -mtime here works if i need to grasp at recent file modifications
10:20 < sibiria> -ctime and -mtime, and use those in a contortive way, sometimes with one being a negated condition
10:21 < Intrepid> To give you the backstory : I've been procrastinating over upgrading my now unpatched OBSD 7.3 to 7.4 and then 7.5 but was concerned about the forewarnings given here: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/upgrade74.html#ConfigChanges  (See bioctl which I use for my FDE HDD and ofc the USB backup drive that you've helped me out with before.
10:21 < sibiria> there's also -cmin and -mmin if you need granularity down to minutes
10:22 < sibiria> i think -mtime is the simplest workaround for you
10:23 < sibiria> e.g. "-mtime 3" is true if the file's modification time is the past 3*24 hours 
10:23 < sibiria> or, hm.. i might be forgetting how that option works
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10:24 < Intrepid> See I've been using cp to just dump the root directory of my main documents DIR to the USB for months, but everytime I do this I'm duplicating the majority of previously copied files... I'm looking at rsync and openrsync ...  I think I'm about ready to give it a goo but need to be clear on the command line argument re:  " rsync
10:24 < Intrepid> --compare-dest=directory
10:25 < Intrepid> ok I think you're about right - I'm looking for all files created/modified in that main docs DIR since 30/5 (the day after I did the major backup_
10:25 < sibiria> "-mtime -3" should be "within the last 3 days
10:26 < Intrepid> so if I navigate to the main directory what is an example command line to achieve this ?   find -mtime -3 *.*
10:27 < sibiria> "find . -mtime -3"  <-  will find all directories and files
10:27 < sibiria> the first argument (the period) is the directory find uses as outset
10:28 < sibiria> if you need a specific pattern, add for example -iname '*.mp3'
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10:30 < Intrepid> ok, I'm going to navigate into the home DIR that sits one level above the subdirectory I want it to do the checking in. will entering what you quoted above work for searching that subdir for the files created within the last 3 days?
10:31 < sibiria> yes. do some manual inspection of what find lists, to confirm it does what you need
10:31 < Intrepid> ok brb
10:31 < sonya> guess -mtime 3 is enough
10:31 < sibiria> positive number will match only that specific date
10:31 < sibiria> negated means "that date and newer"
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10:32 < sibiria> linux' find is really more user-friendly, allowing you to provide something similar to "since" and "up-to" dates
10:33 < Intrepid> worked a treat when used in the parent DIR and wanting to scan all subdir's below it - thanks again
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10:34 < sonya> yep, i was wrong, sorry
10:35 < Intrepid> ok, because I don't use a GUI, and many of the files I've created in the last few days have awfully long names that would be a nightmare to manually CP, I guess openrsync or rsync now needs to be used....   So how about using that --compare-dest command which looks most applicable to what I'm trying to achieve in only copying across newly created
10:35 < Intrepid> or modified files (see here: https://man.openbsd.org/openrsync.1
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10:36 < sibiria> looks sane. though i have no experience with openrsync :)
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10:37 < Intrepid> I'm wondering about where exactly I'd type this --compare-dest command. I'm thinking to do it from the parent of the source subdirectory that I'm looking to be compared against the destintation on the USB, but given that the destination will be ~/mnt/USB  what would that command look like in practice?
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10:38 < sibiria> i think you'll need to prepare a list of files with relative or absolute path using find, then feed that to openrsync
10:38 < Intrepid> how about rsync (I read that openrsync may be buggy which is the last thing I want to risk with backups)
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10:38 < sibiria> rather than letting find "pipe" each file to openrsync
10:39 < Intrepid> haha, I might as well use cp if I'm gonna do that though right?
10:40 < sibiria> yes, if you don't care about comparing the files for differences
10:40 < sibiria> in that case you can use find entirely to copy stuff across
10:42 < sibiria> or just install regular rsync, which has features for this, too
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10:43 < Intrepid> ok well I've done that already - rsync is ready to go
10:43 < sibiria> rsync should have some option to take source from stdin, so that you can just pipe from find to rsync
10:43 < sibiria> i forgot the name of the option
10:43 < Intrepid> stdin?
10:44 < Intrepid> standard input?
10:44 < sibiria> yes, for example:  find ... | rsync ...
10:44 < sibiria> the option might be "--from=-" or so
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10:45 < sibiria> i don't use rsync either. i just know i've seen the option before
10:46 < Intrepid> In looking at your example command line above "find ...| rsync ...     what do the three dots represent ?
10:46 < sibiria> that's just me saying "whatever options you need to use"
10:46 < sibiria> find . -mtime -3 | rsync --from=- host:dest
10:46 < sibiria> or whatever the options are :)
10:47 < sibiria> --files-from is the rsync argument
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10:48 < sibiria> --files-from=- to read from stdin, or you can name an actual file there and it will read from there
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10:48 < sibiria> so you could do something like....  find . -mtime -3 > files.txt    rsync --files-from=files.txt <other options here>
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10:50 < IcePic> perhaps do find and rsync with null-terminated lines for that file
10:51 < IcePic> -print0 for find, --from0 on rsync
10:52 < Intrepid> wait, that example command you gave 3 messages ago ( find . -mtime -3 | rsync --from=-host:dest) - So if I ran that from the parent directory of the subdirectory that I want to gather all the files made within the past three days from then by including the secondary arguments after | then it will take all those files listed out and get rsync to do
10:52 < Intrepid> its function on them!?
10:52 < sibiria> yes but the correct form is ->  --from-files=-
10:52 < sibiria> using "-" as parameter means "read from standard input"
10:53 < Intrepid> I'm gonna take some screenies here before I potentially get disconnected... lol
10:53 < sibiria> doing it this way is a bit slow. it calls rsync once for each file. but it should work
10:54 < sibiria> if it were me i'd output from find to a file, inspect the file to make sure it looks ok, then feed that file to rsync telling it to copy those exact contents
10:55 < sibiria> find . -mtime 3 > filelist.txt
10:55 < sonya> check (while prepare filelist) where/if your files/dirs has a spase " " in names (or other special chars, can't provide a full list).. prepare a proper filelist is all that matters, imho..
10:55 < sibiria> rsync --from-files=filelist.txt <other arguments you need here>
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10:58 < Intrepid> I agree - I'm gonna try get the list of files brought up by mtime -3 and put that list into a .txt file that I can then get rsync to work on
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11:03 < Intrepid> ok I've created the .txt file including all newly created files using find . mtime -3.   The "option" I believe I now need to use in openrsync is --compare-dest=directory where directory is a relatively external directory (such as the USB at ~/mnt/usb) ?
11:03 < sibiria> i guess
11:03 < Intrepid> I think you'll be able to point me clear on the form if you take a quick look here: https://man.openbsd.org/openrsync.1
11:04 < sibiria> don't forget --from-files=thefiles.txt
11:04 < sibiria> --from-files is in regular rsync only. openrsync has something called --include-from which might be the same function, but i don't really know
11:06 < sibiria> sorry, i just don't have much recent experience with either as i don't use anything rsync for my backups
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11:06 < Intrepid> yeh so tell me what you think of this:  I navigate to the parent directory of the subdirectory beneath it that I want to use as the source directory in openrsync. From there I run "openrsync --from-files=filelist.txt --compare-dest=~/mnt/USB/destinationDir" ?
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11:07 < sibiria> --from-files does not exist in openrsync. it's only in regular rsync
11:07 < sibiria> and i guess you will need to provide a destination always, as the last argument for rsync/openrsync
11:08 < Intrepid> I think you're absolutely right so how about this: "openrsync --include-from=filelist.txt --compare-dest=~/mnt/USB/destinationDir" ?
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11:08 < IcePic> instead of messing around with flags and stuff, you could just install https://openports.pl/path/net/rsnapshot and be done with it
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11:08 < Intrepid> see, ice pick lobotomies arent permanent after all!
11:09 < IcePic> its a wrapper around rsync+ssh already, and will handle nice stuff like "unchanged files dont take up space" with the hard link options and all that
11:09 < Intrepid> nice one IcePic  and it includes all original modified dates / attributes?
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11:09 < Intrepid> I don't think I have SSH installed - is that a dealbreaker with this package?
11:10 < Intrepid> or at least not activated ;p
11:10 < sibiria> i think Intrepid is syncing over to locally mounted storage, not to a remote host
11:10 < Intrepid> that's right - all local
11:11 < Intrepid> locally mounted bioctl encrypted crypto volumes both on the source drive and destination
11:11 < IcePic> the very short pkg-readme says: "Local filesystem snapshots are handled with rsync(1). Secure remote
11:11 < IcePic> connections are handled with rsync over ssh(1)"
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11:14 < Intrepid> I'm considering installing it (which I hope I can do by pkg_add -v  btw??) but whats this bit about hard linked options - what does that mean
11:14 < sibiria> this is getting far more complicated than it has to be
11:14 < sibiria> normally, you would invoke rsync/openrsync to backup files in the directory you're standing in like so:  openrsync . /mnt/usb/
11:15 < Intrepid> is it referring to copying over symbolic links and EVERYTHING when you copy a local file from a source to destination drive?
11:15 < sibiria> the only difference here is that you want to sync only *some* files. all you have to do is create that list of "some files", using find, then add one argument to openrsync or rsync to tell it to sync *only* those files
11:15 < sibiria> it's just two invocations, but you will need to test it out first, on safe source/destination, so you don't screw something up
11:15 < IcePic> means that day #2, you ask it to backup once more and if some file is identical to how it was on day #1, then the entry in day2/path/to/file will be a hard link to day1/path/to/file, saving a lot of data. You can still "rm -rf day1" and the backup for day #2 is still complete and usable
11:17 < Intrepid> firstly I think you're right - it must just be something simple like running openrsync -a ./mnt/usb from the directory I want to mirror. The second issue about only copying certain files is actually circumvented by the arguments (flags?) I can add to the rsync command line - (This is why I mentioned --compare-dest earlier)
11:18 < Intrepid> Thanks IcePic sounds like Apples time machine backups?
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11:18 < sibiria> Intrepid: https://dpaste.org/cd75Z/raw   use this as reference. test it on safe directories etc.
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11:18 < IcePic> Intrepid: sure, but its just a small detail around how rsync works that makes it handle hard links very well for this purpose
11:18 < Intrepid> I thought so IcePic - just exercising an abundance of caution :P
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11:19 < IcePic> basically the rsnapshot thing makes a full clone of the file tree of "day1" into "day2", then run rsync from src/ into day2. Whenever rsync decides a file in src has changed since day1, it will unlink day2/path/to/file and rsync it. All unchanged files will be left pointing into day1/path/to/file 
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11:20 < IcePic> this means one can invent all kinds of rotation schemes and "keep two hourly, one daily and one weekly" backup by just running it frequently and then cleaning up the unwanted copies
11:20 < Intrepid> bookmarked sibiria thanks
11:20 < IcePic> the more often you run it, the less the difference will be and the faster it completes
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11:30 < Intrepid> uggh I'm gettting syntax errors (notwithstanding the form error in the openrsync in the dpaste link that I've accounted for)
11:31 < Intrepid> how do I copy the x window input so I can paste it here (I know its SHIFT+INS to get it from here to there but now the other way?)
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11:34 < Intrepid> the error: openrsync --include-files=list_of_files.txt . /mnt/usb/some/place   I think the argument needs to start with --include-from-list_of_files.txt
11:35 < Intrepid> but even with this amended version I'm getting syntax error ugh
11:36 < hali> look at --include-from
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11:40 < Intrepid> yeh doesn't --include-from actually need a - on the end to read from standard input like sibiria was saying above? i.e.: --include-from=-rsynclist.txt
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11:42 < hali> if you have a file list, why do you need to read from stdin?
11:42 < Intrepid> not sure - I think I'm getting confused now. I think that was at the stage where we were looking to pipe it directly into openrsync from the .txt file stage
11:43 < Intrepid> anyways, adding the dash just changed the nature of the error.  When I remove it again I now get the usual "Usage: xxxxx xxx source ... target" message
11:43 < sibiria> you can pipe directly from find. but if you make a list of files instead you have a chance to review that list. it will also let rsync/opensrync work faster
11:43 < Intrepid> How can I paste what I'm seeing in X now here???
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11:44 < Intrepid> CTRL-C doesn't seem to put it into a buffer from X
11:44 < sibiria> middle-mouse? or something
11:44 < hali> using right click? but please dont paste lines and lines of text
11:44 < sibiria> i rarely use x on openbsd... maybe right button was it
11:45 < Intrepid> no joy and I think I've reached my troubleshooting tether now lol
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11:46 < Intrepid> anyway you've been a good help as always sibiria - I might try again tmrw at a similar time
11:46 < Intrepid> I think I've at least learnt a bit more about command line argument basics .... like the . in find .
11:47 < Intrepid> lol whats the official word on what that does? Does it say find everything in any subdirectories below the one you're running the command from?
11:48 < hali> current working directory
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11:49 < sonya> Intrepid: for X session paste could be one of: middle click / Shift + mk / shift + ins  ..  and it pastes different things: buffer and/or clipboard
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11:50 < IcePic> . is this current dir, just like .. is "the parent of this dir", both appear if you "ls -la"
11:50 < Intrepid> Here's a couple more theoretical questions that are probably more interesting than the minutae of what we've been bogged down in thus far anyway: (1) I ) IF you're running an old version of OBSD that is now just out of patching range (+1 year), then how vulnerable is it? Don't all the security holes that the previous release had get unveiled in the
11:50 < Intrepid> release notes of the latest version meaning it's a lot more vulnerable ? (2) What added risk is there to having a separate Xterm window running in root whilst doing everything else (like a browser window) in another Xterm window thats just run from $
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11:53 < IcePic> Intrepid: in answer to the first, there is no way to fix issues and also keep them secret. In order to "protect" old releases with known holes, you would have to not fix them, since any change that gets sent out can more or less easily be diffed (even in binary form) to show exactly in which area the bug is
11:53 < Intrepid> Thanks sonya SHIFT-INS gets something pasted into X that  I've CTRL-C'd (copied) from elsewhere (like this IRC text) - I'm talking about the reverse driection
11:54 < IcePic> openbsd chooses to fix issues as soon as possible. Even if that means someone with old installs might fare higher risk, but it's probably better to have a few people with unpatched systems being vulnerable until they upgrade than to have everyone vulnerable
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11:55 < Intrepid> yeh thanks IcePic I'm not looking for answers as to the "ethics" of it, just the practical reality, but I think you've answered my question anyway right? In other words yes, as soon as you're out of syspatch range you're SUPER vulnerable... correct me if I'm mistaken.
11:56 < sonya> 1) as wulnerable as used (not patched) components.. it's not a recommended in any way, but one of my boxes still with 6.0 as i'm lazy and (router) simply works.. 2) separate root's Xterm (as a root's window in screen/tmux and so on) has a risk of being root in general.. 
11:56 < IcePic> I can't vouch for the percentage of risk one takes. My take is that obsd systems probably live longer even out of patch than other OSes
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11:57  * IcePic has an account on a obsd box that is so old that the first obsd ssh vuln doesn't even work on it. Perhaps that box is safe, perhaps not.
11:58 < Intrepid> so what's the sysupgrade process like anyway? Does it only take an hour or so if you've no special configs etc.? just run sysmerge afterward and run installboot to set new boot blocks?
11:58 < Intrepid> my system has FDE FWIW
11:59 < IcePic> sysupgrade takes 1-2 mins, then a sysmerge and pkg_add -u after, should be done in less than 5m
11:59 < sonya> could be wrong, as i prefer upgrades from bsd.rd, dut sysupgrade does all required steps, including sysmerge and boot block upgrade
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12:00 < IcePic> sonya: sysupgrade runs bsd.rd for you 
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12:00 < Intrepid> Thanks sonya and so I only need to bother with sysmerge and boot block (via running installboot) if I do the interactive upgrade?
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12:02 < Intrepid> Here's an extra points question: If you (having now realised you've been more vulnerable than you first thought from now being 2 months outside the update window), and you may have already been "exploited", would sysupgrade still obviate whatever compromise may have occurred? Or would it require a full HDD format/repartition (And doesn't the
12:02 < Intrepid> installation process do that anyway??)
12:03 < sonya> Intrepid: upgrades with bsd.rd does all except base system cleanup (# pkg_check -Fnvm  to look at).. and i guess that sysupgrade perform in similar way, cause it reboots machine (so boot block also managed)
12:03 < IcePic> there is no telling what could have been hidden if you are compromised. 
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12:03 < Intrepid> yeh IcePic that's why I'm wondering about a full overwrite of the drive using dd or some such after loading the installation into RAM... that is an option right?
12:04 < sonya> Intrepid: bsd.rd can do it, yes
12:04 < Intrepid> As in do it interactively, go to (S)hell from the ramdisk and then run the DD command to overwrite ANY/EVERYTHING on the drive with Zero's ?
12:05 < sonya> Ctl+C will quit install to shell and # install will start things over.. whatever you do in shell - up to you and bsd.rd options
12:06 < Intrepid> OFC the next issue is how long this takes.. Forum threads on the topic (albeit on other OS's like linux) look shocking (days/weeks for writing the random or zero's to a HDD)
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12:07 < Intrepid> So why do you like the interactive upgrade method (you mentioned using bsd.rd above) ?
12:08 < sonya> it depends i guess.. can't estimate.. an hour in my case for 512Gb spinning rust drive afair.. could take longer in some cases
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12:09 < Intrepid> that's not bad at all, I tried using the dd urandom command on just a simple USB stick I intended to use as backup and even after 1.5 hours I just cancelled it because it was showing neither progress or signs of completion..
12:09 < sonya> bsd.rd just give a bit of control: prepare first and then upgrade.. and prepared files are used for othar LAN upgrades as well (no extra downloads)
12:09 < IcePic> sending siginfo (ctrl-t) would show progress
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12:11 < Intrepid> you mean just hold down CTRL-T whilst its in progress?
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12:16 < IcePic> Intrepid: yes, ctrl-t on most terminals will send siginfo on openbsd and this in turn will make dd drop current progress to stderr
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12:18 < IcePic> one can check with "stty -a", if status is set to ^T 
12:18 < IcePic> min = 1; quit = ^\; reprint = ^R; start = ^Q; status = ^T;
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12:19 < IcePic> if not, "stty status ^T" sets it, then it works to print status, or if you have another terminal/console, one can send a SIGINFO to dd
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12:19 < IcePic> "pkill -INFO dd" 
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12:32 < Intrepid>  ok that's pretty good, thanks IcePic
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12:33 < Intrepid> At least this way if I bother retrying to urandom (via dd) a USB stick before encrypting it, I can have some idea of just how slowly it is going before killing it
12:34 < Intrepid> One other general theory question before I go:  DOAS...  Is it more secure than using su and if so why? IS it because it's only granting root powers for that single command being entered and then its out of root mode?
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12:38 < lts> That's one. No need to share/type/store root password in some situations is another
12:38 < RobbieAB> Intrepid: I've not looked in enough detail to confirm this applies to doas, but one argument for sudo in Linux is auditing is typically a lot better
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12:44  * lts uses doas in Linux boxes too :-)
12:44 < zelest> same
12:45 < sibiria> the downside with using sudo/doas everywhere is that each instance is handing out a bonus super user privilege without any extra security standing in the way
12:45 < sibiria> suddenly your regular user is no longer just a regular user
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12:47 < sibiria> it has one foot through the door to being part super user, then both legs, and so on, for each bonus privilege it's granted
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12:49 < sonya> and above is true if granted action via sudo/doas could lead to following ecatation of privs.. example: vim under doas calls root shell..
12:50 < sibiria> misuse of sudo/doas is rampant. part owed to people not understanding the right situation to use this tool, part to convenience
12:51 < sibiria> "i want to edit everything in /etc without going to root, so it's more secure to grant 'doas vi /etc/*'"
12:51 < sibiria> pkg_add/delete is another case that's kinda screwy, since you can provide local paths
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12:54 < RobbieAB> sibiria: I actually argue that if we grant sudo $EDITOR we should just grant sudo ALL
12:55 < RobbieAB> It's more honest, and easier
12:55 < sibiria> i always su to root on wheelie, do stuff, get out :p
12:55 < sibiria> i use doas for single very specific automated service-type stuff running out of cron. that's my limit
12:56 < RobbieAB> Habitually, I use sudo because, Well, RHEL pays the bills.
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12:57 < RobbieAB> But we also use restricted sudo for less privileged user accounts, and I am trying to get rid of sudo su - $account from our nasties list.
12:57 < sibiria> does RHEL still provide "%wheel ALL=(ALL:ALL) ALL" as default, like so many linuces did for decades?
12:57 < sibiria> before realizing how utterly retarded that was
12:57 < RobbieAB> Not sure, we don't run default sudoers.
12:58 < RobbieAB> We do have users on ALL=(ALL) privileges.
12:58 < RobbieAB> Mainly users who already A) have the root password, and B) are going to sudo -i anyway.
12:59 < RobbieAB> So yeah, for those users, sudo doesn't offer any real benefit.
13:00 < hali> if the root password is too complex to remember and is frequently rotated, sudo does offer some advantages... disabling the user account doesn't leave the user with root password knowledge
13:00 < sibiria> i think openbsd's default of blank sudo/doas and requiring wheel membership to su to root is the most sane default
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13:01 < sibiria> hali: it offers *convenience*. in this case i argue it's a disadvantage, not an advantage
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15:38 < armin> Totally depends - on some Linux home workstation? lol just le me work, I'd even use NOPASSWD:ALL and password-less policy-kit. On some OpenBSD-laptop I use on the road? You can bet doas will be password-secured...
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15:53 < armin> sibiria: What really annoyed me on RHEL/CentOS were aliases defined by default for rm/mv/cp.
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16:03 < armin> But yea anyway, on a home computer I even love not having power management (at all) or even a screensaver, just make that thing accessible and let me get on with my life. I know that's a bit crazy from a security perspective.
16:08 < sibiria> i don't mind those aliases. i rather be slightly annoyed, than permanently upset about goofing up :)
16:09 < sibiria> i keep such around on my openbsd system, too
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16:09 < armin> sibiria: I'm upset exactly one single time for about 25sec and then I'm used to "unalias -a" after logging in to such system.
16:09 < sibiria> as far as RHEL goes... good riddance. glad i'm no longer working with that, nor centos
16:09 < armin> this.
16:10 < armin> But wow, talking about system wide shell initialization files, this actually HAS some frustration points, yes.
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16:11 < armin> The very first thing I do when I get access to a new machine is checking what stuff from /etc/skel was copied there, and in 99.999% of the cases I will change that stuff.
16:12 < armin> Heck even some "curl blah.foo/myshellinitialization.txt | sh" is better than dealing with constant surprises when having to work with various systems.
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16:22 < armin> sibiria: Then again I took a deep dive into Linux distributions again, just to see where openSUSE/Fedora/Ubuntu are currently going I took the largest 3 and just tried to work with all of them for a while. I can deal with all of them, no problem, but knowing how "clean" an OpenBSD or Alpine desktop feels really influenced my perceptions a bit, I admit that...
16:23 < Bradipo> My biggest complaint about Linux is the insistence in including all kinds of cruft in the shell... all the bash auto completion stuff.
16:24 < Bradipo> Messy.  Gets in the way.  Trammels otherwise good Unix behavior (e.g. everything is a file and all programs should be able to interpret said files as they see fit).
16:24 < Bradipo> When I type: unzip /path/to/file<TAB> it should auto complete regardless of whether or not that file ends in .zip!
16:25 < hali> you can't really blame "linux" for the bash-bloat, that's on the distro builder... and in the same way you can switch on bash-bloat in openbsd... you can also switch it off in that linux distro
16:25 < armin> Bradipo: But why, what do you want to un-zip there? A .rar file? It's ok to have to re-name that real quick for the benefit of not having file* appear in your completions.
16:26 < armin> Bradipo: It's a compromise and they do it a bit different than our brains worked at the time those completions came along, and I think that's mostly fine.
16:26 < armin> Bradipo: You could also just configure ZSH as your "fancy shell with all the blingbling" while keeping ksh/bash as login shell to "get the clean environment you know and understand".
16:27 < armin> Bradipo: I mean if you really have file01 to file99 which happen to be zip-files without an extension just do a quick for/mv loop and get on with your life, or not?
16:28 < armin> (but I agree it's brain-tricking, yea...)
16:29 < sibiria> armin: i don't really have much experience with anything linux besides debian, which i find relatively tidy as far as linux goes. it's not alpine/busybox but it's tidy all the same
16:29 < armin> sibiria: hehe word :D
16:29 < sibiria> i used to be very knowledgeable with centos and rhel but that's some 10 years in the past
16:30 < sibiria> ...ish
16:30 < armin> hali: It's ok to consider it "the Linux thing" if what you're used to is OpenBSD and/or a Macbook maybe you will be a bit surprised by their "defaults" and I believe that is okay.
16:31 < armin> sibiria: It didn't change *that* much to begin with, of course "man systemd<TAB>" revealing over 200 man-pages can be frustrating, though.
16:32 < hali> armin: fair enough, distro like voidos or alpine would disagree :-)
16:32 < armin> hali: I love Alpine, I use it for very very very different things afterall, it's a great operating system and the feeling I have while using it is comparable to OpenBSD, I feel like I can actually understand my computer.
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16:33 < hali> armin: agree 100%, I use alpine to run tailscale in a couple of locations
16:33 < armin> hali: Void is nice but they have a default-accessible sshd enabled in the install image with known user/password, which I consider a giant security issue.
16:34 < ssm_> Void is on my bad bad list right now because they pushed KDE6 way before it was ready, which is not something a distro branded as "stable rolling" should do. Caused my brother to ditch it for NixOS
16:36 < hali> I honestly wouldn't choose alpine/void for a workstation, far from their focus and more prone to problems like what you described...
16:37 < ssm_> alpine and void are probably the only linuxes I would chooses for any usecase at this point
16:38 < ssm_> it's great with openbsd for testing the portability of your software with vmm(4)
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16:38 < armin> ssm_: I purposefully switched to openSUSE with KDE6 on Wayland as soon as it was available, and I consider it ready from day one. But hey, I'm ultra-biased and your perception will naturally of course vary a lot.
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16:39 < armin> ssm_: I also have a keyboard shortcut to restart plasma-shell which makes me work-around a bug...
16:39 < armin> ssm_: But meh, generally speaking, Plasma 6 was a god-send, I'm so happy we finally get that stable experience on Wayland we deserve.
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16:40 < armin> ssm_: Then again, it's hard to let loose from Xorg after all the years, I love to use dwm on Xorg on OpenBSD...
16:41 < ssm_> armin: only reason I have exposure to kde is because it's what my brother wants to use, I'm a cwm user :>
16:41 < armin> ssm_: :D
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16:43 < armin> ssm_: What drove me towards it was actually macOS, I realized how well I could just use macOS if all I do is customize the terminal emulator (iTerm2) a bit, like new tab, tab left/right and so on, and simply configuring tmux so that I can swap around panes and such...
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16:45 < thrig> I had to single user mode boot Mac OS X to disable the notification crap
16:45 < hali> not sure how SuSE can still be in business, I never hear of anyone paying for it... must be some big german corps etc
16:46 < armin> Still strongly in love with tiling WMs however, DWM is still very very very high on my top-tier list of desktops, and DWL for Wayland is something I never became comfortable with...
16:46 < armin> hali: Good question, but yeah large enterprises, banks, insurances, governments and so on I believe...
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16:47 < hali> I work in banking and know of zero use in the indsutry in London, Credit Suisse used to be big on suse back in the day though
16:47 < armin> So what do they run? RHEL?
16:47 < hali> rhel or amazonlinux 
16:47 < hali> amazonlinux being a rhel clone
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16:49 < hali> we used to have corporate approved hardened alpine image available but after a very annoying takeover a few years back we are down to amazonlinx (preferred) or rhel (if required by the app we run)
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16:50 < armin> interesting
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16:55 < hali> you got me interested in suse now, doing an install in proxmox :)
16:56 < armin> tumbleweed I hope? leap is a bit...outdated...  :D
16:56 < hali> yyes tumbleweed
16:57 < armin> good!
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16:57 < hali> not used KDE in a while either tbh
16:59 < armin> If I tell my friends I recommended Tumbleweed to someone in #openbsd they will consider me gone completely insane.
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17:01 < ssm_> you convinced your friends to use IRC?
17:02 < armin> ssm_: It became difficult over the last 10 years, but with my closest friends I do prefer IRC still, yea.
17:03 < hali> I haven't used IRC in a while, used to be very active ~15-25 years ago... trying to get back in to the habit of attaching to my irssi tmux again
17:04 < armin> hali: irssi/tmux here, too. :)
17:04 < hali> im running mine on netbsd at the moment tho, dont kick me :)
17:04 < armin> hali: ah I tried to use NetBSD many many many times, but I managed to break the installation within days or weeks, every single time.
17:05 < armin> FreeBSD I ran for many years on desktops even...
17:06 < hali> ha, I got curious when version 10 came out and gave it a chance again... it's "neat" ... the package management and upgrade process still annoys me and I honestly see little use for it outside of education and people tinkering with "easy" porting
17:06 < armin> Well pkgin is pretty fantastic though
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17:06 < hali> is it though? I can't say I like it
17:07 < armin> But the update-process showing raw diffs and interactively asking you what you want to do in 200 cases or something? Not cool.
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17:10 < armin> hali: If you asked me for my 3 favourite operating systems I'd probably say OpenBSD/Alpine and then think for 10 seconds before choosing some random 3rd one.
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17:11 < hali> armin: flavour of the month :-)
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17:11 < armin> hali: I cook less than one time a month, SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :-)
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17:14 < armin> But yeah OpenBSD served me blatantly well over the last years, I even bought a shirt, but the print washed out within very short time. :(
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17:15 < thrig> all my OpenBSD tshirts have more holes than the default install
17:15 < armin> That's a lot. :)
17:18  * RobbieAB is using a combination of openbsd, gentoo, fedora, and ubuntu on home systems.
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17:18 < RobbieAB> ubuntu on the kids stuff, fedora on the laptop because "it was quick and easy", gentoo and openbsd on the real systems.
17:19 < armin> RobbieAB: :)
17:20 < RobbieAB> I'm slowly drifting towards openbsd more and more, it missed on the laptop due to an nxplayer requirement.
17:20 < IcePic> thrig++
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17:20 < ssm_> nxplayer?
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17:22 < RobbieAB> no machine client.
17:22 < RobbieAB> Required for work.
17:23 < RobbieAB> They pay the mortgage, I can tolerate having to use a linux binary occassionally to work remotely.
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18:02  * sonya dowloaded latest 9front release and somehow stuck with timme-management to dive into.. :)
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19:51 < jrmu> oldlaptop: are there any limitations that you're aware of in veb(4) compared to bridge(4)?
19:51 < jrmu> if not I'm switching to veb
19:52 < jrmu> vport seems to handle what I need
19:54 < oldlaptop> Nothing the manual pages don't describe/imply (veb(4) doesn't have the STP stuff documented, or any documented ioctl surface)
19:55 < oldlaptop> You don't configure it precisely the same way, of course, but that doesn't seem like a "limitation" exactly.
19:58 < jrmu> alright, sounds good, thanks
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20:23 < mischief> i use veb for a couple years now for my lan side. works just fine.
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20:41  * oldlaptop has not had cause to complain since before the first release with veb
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21:45 < ssm_> xenocara README says `Xenocara is made up of almost three hundred different independent packages that need to be built and installed in the right order`, does this mean I shouldn't use make with -j while building xenocara?
21:46 < welcome> HELO
21:46 < welcome> Can someone tell me if there is an openbsd package/port which will display on X a solar system animation?
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21:48  * sonya still can't manage -size other than default with xearth.. and no idea what goes wrong..
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21:54 < izder456> rfht’s fauxstream stopped working on -CURRENT for me cos of the device name change. anyone else with this issue? potential fix?
21:55 < izder456> i am tempted to submit a pull request and do it myself
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22:26 < izder456> https://github.com/rfht/fauxstream/pull/4
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--- Log closed Tue Jun 04 00:00:38 2024