--- Log opened Sun Jun 23 00:00:17 2024
--- Day changed Sun Jun 23 2024
00:00 < vortexx> Tingo: undeadly.org replaces deadly.org, the previous new website. openbsd.org remains the main website, and undeadly is unrelated
00:00 < Tingo> oh i see..
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00:01 < Tingo> KDE6 is coming on OpenBSD..
00:02 < vortexx> also for your web based services... httpd is the native OpenBSD web server, but if you need HTTP2 speeds, you'll need apache or nginx
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00:13 < Tingo> Thanks.. Yea, installing it..
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00:16 < Tingo> OpenBSD has ISC based License and FreeBSD has BSD based License ?
00:16 < vortexx> both OpenBSD and FreeBSD are on BSD license
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00:16 < vortexx> ISC license is used on some miscellaneous things iirc
00:16 < vortexx> like got
00:17 < vortexx> got isn't in base
00:17 < vortexx> on OpenBSD there's a great emphasis on what is in base vs a pkg
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00:18 < vortexx> things in base have been security audited and as much as possible use the OpenBSD style coding
00:18 < vortexx> and use the same flags 
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00:18 < vortexx> so -n is the same across nearly if not all base daemons, which means "don't run just check"
00:19 < vortexx> Tingo: which OS are you coming from btw?
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00:33 < Tingo> vortexx: i know little bit about Ubuntu/Debian/RHEL/AlmaLinux
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00:43 < vortexx> Tingo: ok, some of that knowledge applies but most of the GNU commands has BSD equivalents that predate the GNU ones. If you really need a familiar env, pkg_add bash coreutils
00:43 < vortexx> all the commands you know from linux will be prefixed with g
00:43 < vortexx> like gcat for cat
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00:44 < vortexx> echo /usr/local/bin/bash >>/etc/shells to have bash available as a shell for your user
00:45 < vortexx> but it's best to use ksh, which is the default shell on OpenBSD
00:45 < vortexx> and learn the commands you'll find in /bin /sbin /usr/bin and /usr/sbin
00:46 < vortexx> as well as /usr/libexec
00:47 < Tingo> hmm..
00:47 < Tingo> installation near to finish..
00:48 < Tingo> so, sudo is doas here..
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00:51 < vortexx> sudo is but a pkg_add away but as usual use native commands first
00:52 < jungleboogie> Chances are you don't need sudo
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00:59 < Tingo> hmm.. still under installiation and downloading bsd, bsd.mp bsd.rd base75.tgz packages..
01:00 < Tingo> jungleboogie: for adding new package without going to Root.. require sudo or doas pkg_add <Package_Name>
01:01 < vortexx> system "packages" are called sets
01:01 < jungleboogie> you can setup doas for that
01:01 < jungleboogie> As vortexx said, read the FAQ
01:01 < vortexx> Tingo: don't try and double guess the installer, you need all sets if doing a basic install
01:01 < vortexx> even the x* ones
01:01 < Tingo> for admin tasks or for re-run service have to go in root first $ su -  or $ su root ..
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01:02 < vortexx> because fontconfig needs libs from the x* packages
01:02 < Tingo> hmm..
01:02 < vortexx> s/packages/set
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01:02 < vortexx> su - loads the root env, preferable to just su
01:03 < vortexx> although that will soon be deprecated, you'll need su -l root iirc
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01:09 < Tingo> FreeBSD has been installed quickly :)
01:09 < vortexx> #freebsd will be glad to hear it
01:10 < vortexx> which hypervisor are you using?
01:11 < Tingo> strange thing in Freebsd $ su -l root or $ su  is showing error su : sorry  .. Time FreeBSD su [888]: BAD SU freebsd to root /dev/ttyv0
01:11 < Tingo> VmWare..
01:13 < Tingo> but on reboot .. again login with root user then its login fine.. but switching from Normal User to Root.. that Error..
01:14 < vortexx> that's a question for #freebsd
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01:15 < vortexx> Tingo: but you probably failed to add your user to group wheel, which is the group in UNIX that is allowed to su to root
01:15 < Tingo> yea.. leave it.. btw.. issue was group of wheel
01:16 < vortexx> (the install script won't do this by default, but will prompt you to add your user to an additional group, which is the hint to add to wheel)
01:16 < Tingo> yes..
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01:20 < Tingo> vortexx: how long are you using this OpenBSD ?
01:21 < vortexx> Tingo: since 2002 iirc
01:22 < vortexx> I tried earlier but getting my router PC to use ISA cards on OpenBSD was just too much
01:22 < vortexx> once I moved to a PC with PCI cards it was ok
01:23 < vortexx> also I triplebooted windows/openbsd/linux on my laptop
01:23 < vortexx> helped me to learn a lot
01:24 < vortexx> I remember using FreeBSD on the router but it didn't last, I moved back to RH 6.2 (long before RHEL) and then I got hacked, so I went to OpenBSD at 3.0 because pf came in 
01:24 < Tingo> hmm.. since 2002 .. its a long time :) good to hear that..
01:24 < vortexx> stateful firewall and much more secure services
01:25 < vortexx> in a time when on Linux we were told to just turn off all unnecessary services, OpenBSD said "use them all, they've been secured"
01:25 < vortexx> OpenBSD also has superior routing daemons as far as I'm concerned
01:26 < vortexx> and does VPNs better, especially wireguard
01:27 < Tingo> FreeBSD is also looking good.. its projects are also PFsense
01:27 < vortexx> the only problem is speed, but that of course is scalable, the faster hw you throw at it the better it gets
01:27 < Tingo> you got hacked.. ? how ?
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01:28 < Tingo> RH 6.2 bootloader was iLO or Lilo ? it was something like that Grub came later ?
01:28 < vortexx> I'm not 100% sure but maybe a weak ssh password
01:28 < vortexx> lilo back then
01:28 < Tingo> yea..
01:28 < vortexx> grub arrived shortly later as I recall
01:28 < vortexx> may have been an apachee vuln otherwise
01:29 < vortexx> I was running apache at the time on the router
01:29 < vortexx> various stuff served up, wasn't paying attention to logs too much
01:29 < vortexx> OpenBSD solved all this
01:29 < Tingo> iLO was HP Server manager software..
01:29 < vortexx> yeah
01:29 < vortexx> I have used iLo on my homelab server
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01:30 < vortexx> iLO
01:30 < Tingo> hmm..
01:30 < Tingo> at that time.. Hackers were active..
01:30 < vortexx> it's gotten a lot worse since
01:30 < vortexx> but security has evolved
01:31 < Tingo> i noticed that now a days.. things have been secured.. big time improvement as compare to that time..
01:31 < vortexx> pf keeps us safe
01:31 < vortexx> up to a point
01:31 < Tingo> openwall was famous..
01:31 < vortexx> back then, the main firewall softwares where ststeless
01:32 < vortexx> stateless
01:32 < vortexx> so not nearly as effective as statefull
01:32 < vortexx> you basically blocked all ports and let some stuff through and hoped for the best
01:33 < vortexx> you couldn't block by IP range or keep track of connections
01:33 < Tingo> no doubt that openbsd is famouse in security.. OpenSSH is the project of Openbsd.. The whole wolrd is using SSH for connectivity :)
01:33 < vortexx> well, you could by IP range but that was a difficult (and still is) business
01:34 < Tingo> hmm.. CSF software worked well..
01:34 < vortexx> but that was the ancient universe as far as the internet is now
01:34 < vortexx> CSF?
01:35 < vortexx> Tingo: btw you should try to build the same project on FreeBSD and OpenBSD as you have on Linux
01:35 < vortexx> and then compare
01:35 < Tingo> configserver.com/
01:35 < vortexx> you're going to run into different configuration issues but fundamentally it's not so different
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01:36 < vortexx> just that you need to add sysctls and things to /etc/login.conf on OpenBSD
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01:37 < Tingo> Dont know why even mirror of Openbsd is kind of slow.. base75.tgz is still downloading slowly..
01:37 < vortexx> oh wow someone who's an expert on exim as mail server, configserver are rare
01:38 < vortexx> Tingo: the installer lets you choose a local mirror from a list, did you try that?
01:38 < Tingo> https://configserver.com/configserver-security-and-firewall/
01:38 < vortexx> yes some mirrors are slow (the .ca ones...) but you can use the cdn if you want to
01:38 < Tingo> yea.. it has been chosen local nearest mirror..
01:39 < vortexx> shame it's slow
01:40 < Tingo> well, it auto chosen that mirror.. well..
01:40 < Tingo> tell me about latest Nvidia driver for OpenBSD ?
01:40 < vortexx> mh I can remember when 2.4 kernel came in for linux Undernet #linux had a guy come in, say he was rewriting his ipchains settings to iptables and 30 mins later was back and had it working
01:40 < vortexx> I was quite jealous :P
01:40 < vortexx> iptables is still an atrocious language for firewall config
01:42 < vortexx> Tingo: none. There is nouveau (the fairly (10-15 years) outofdate) driver for nvidia, but basically on OpenBSD we say never go with nvidia, the support isn't there. Go with AMD or Intel if you can
01:42 < Tingo> if want to host ChatGPT on it.. or Stable diffusion .. ?
01:42 < vortexx> FreeBSD has nvidia support thanks to netflix and nvidia engineers using FreeBSD
01:43 < Tingo> yea, IPTables is a great tool for securing and mangling packets..
01:43 < vortexx> there's no package that I know of for OpenBSD for ChatGPT, but adding it to some web instance might be doable
01:44 < Tingo> yea, Netfix is using FreeBSDs,,,
01:45 < Tingo> btw.. OpenBSD support max Architectures of Hardwares as compare to other OS..
01:45 < Tingo> now world is going to GPU so they should also work on Nvidea GPU support and drivers
01:46 < vortexx> NetBSD does better on max archs supported
01:47 < vortexx> NVidia won't release docs so there's zero chance of better Nvidia drivers on OpenBSD
01:47 < Tingo> right now .. are you on OpenBSD ? and which iirc client are you rrunning from CLI ?
01:47 < vortexx> the FreeBSD and Linux drivers are closed source
01:47 < vortexx> I'm on a vm on my homelab server. I use irrsi
01:48 < vortexx> and yes it's on OpenBSD
01:48 < Tingo> Ok..
01:48 < Tingo> i was seeing new Linux OS (POP OS).. its good OS..
01:48 < Tingo> https://pop.system76.com
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01:48 < Tingo> regarding GPU..
01:49 < vortexx> I've got 5 OpenBSD VMs running on bhyve on this system
01:49 < Tingo> 5 VMs .. why ?
01:49 < vortexx> and I can boot into OpenBSD on my laptop but my wifi chip isn't supported so I don't use that as much
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01:49 < vortexx> separate services per VM
01:49 < Tingo> which kind of services ?
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01:50 < Tingo> so .. OpeBSD has issues with drivers.. even if user dont want GUI..
01:50 < vortexx> one for IRC, one for building packages, one for mail, one for matrix services, one for zabbix monitoring + centralized logging
01:51 < Tingo> hmm.. Great !!
01:51 < vortexx> + one that I run only when the next release source code is released, that I use to build my own release sets with
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01:51 < Tingo> building packages.. which packages have you been created ?
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01:52 < vortexx> I use it to build packages that I use on my VMs + other systems, and I sign them with my own key
01:52 < vortexx> ~1700 packages as of now
01:52 < vortexx> as a security measure I prefer to build my own packages and sign them with my own key
01:52 < Tingo> oh ok.. you have been hosted and setup your own Local Repo..
01:53 < Tingo> i thought that you do coding and build new packages..
01:53 < vortexx> no I don't code
01:54 < vortexx> and yeah basically I'm running my own repo in Linux lingo
01:54 < Tingo> hmm.. with your own GPG key for signing them..
01:54 < Tingo> ok
01:54 < vortexx> signify key
01:54 < vortexx> we have signify on OpenBSD for such purposes
01:55 < vortexx> (signify has been ported to other OSes too)
01:55 < Tingo> game75.tgz .. which file is it ?
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01:55 < vortexx> a bunch of old school unix games, textmode only
01:56 < vortexx> there mostly there to prove that they build on esoteric architectures
01:56 < Tingo> which games do OpenBSD has built in ? if it has too basic GUI.. :)
01:56 < vortexx> s/there/they're
01:56 < vortexx> ls /usr/games, you'll find out
01:56 < oldlaptop> re nvidia: my understanding is that they've opened a bunch of linux driver source relatively recently. I wouldn't hold my breath on OpenBSD support - I don't get the impression all that many OpenBSD developers are especially interested in nvidia hardware.
01:57 < Tingo> k.. once it will finish installing .. now xbase75.tgz is taking time..
01:57 < vortexx> oldlaptop: agreed
01:57 < oldlaptop> (nouveau has been more or less worth having for a long while now, and AIUI there is no fundamental reason it couldn't be ported - but someone would have to shovel out that Augean stable)
01:57 < oldlaptop> amdgpu is bad enough
01:58 < Tingo> oldlaptop: offcourse.. Developers focus on Trend..that which things are IN now a days.. hope so they will give more support of drivers in future..
01:58 < oldlaptop> OpenBSD developers don't strike me as the type of crowd who care much about following "trends".
01:58 < vortexx> at least OpenBSD has a framework to use linux's DRM (not Digital Rights Management, the other one) pretty much directly
01:59 < Tingo> Ubuntu has been popular only because that it has too many Wifi drivers for Laptops.. and offcourse with latest Gnome and KDE
01:59 < vortexx> OpenBSD developes are probably the most conservative as far as introducing new tech out there
01:59 < oldlaptop> in the sense you're talking about, OpenBSD has historically been *years* behind the "trends" (consider the history of SMP support as an example)
02:00 < vortexx> OpenBSD is famous for having the most restrictive /etc/ssl/cert.pem of all
02:00 < oldlaptop> it's not /really/ even (usually) on the leading edge of exploit mitigations and so on - it tends to be the first system to really get a neat new exploit mitigation fully implemented in a real production OS, not the group that invents some sort of idea
02:01 < vortexx> the only thing that OpenBSD adopted rapidly of late was wireguard
02:01 < vortexx> and it's first class
02:01 < Tingo> Security is too important on big bussiness level..
02:02 < vortexx> oldlaptop: I don't think other OSes have anything close to unveil and pledge, there's a linux patch but it's not in the basic install for most distributions
02:02 < oldlaptop> (pledge(2) being a fantastic example - there's plenty of prior art, even in openbsd itself, for somehow restricting which system calls a process can use. pledge(2) in OpenBSD was the first time someone actually *did* that to more or less an entire unix userland.)
02:02 < vortexx> and those two techs are second to none for me in keeping services safe
02:03 < oldlaptop> linux has had seccomp for a long while now, freebsd has... dammit, what was their thing called?
02:03 < vortexx> pledge and unveil basically replace chroot as a security model
02:03 < vortexx> capsicum?
02:03 < oldlaptop> netbsd and openbsd had systrace
02:03 < oldlaptop> Yes, capsicum.
02:03 < oldlaptop> All of those things were too complicated to use, and were therefore used for approximately one handful of programs each.
02:03 < vortexx> yes but are all services capsicum'd?
02:03 < vortexx> ?
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02:03 < Tingo> no doubt that.. openbsd guys built legend things on openbsd OS..
02:04 < oldlaptop> the distinctive thing openbsd did wasn't invent the basic concept of some kind of syscall 'sandbox', it was to invent one that was reasonable to use on *everything* (and of cource actually do that)
02:04 < oldlaptop> that happens a fair bit
02:04 < vortexx> pledge and unveil are kernel level plumbing, so the user can't do anything about it by default unless the service or package has a config file enabling something less restricting
02:05 < vortexx> like allowing firefox to access anything else than ~/Downloads
02:06 < vortexx> SELinux seemed amazing when the NSA handed it over, but then no one could find a good way to use it, it was SO bloody complex
02:06 < AShapiro> selinux has some really weird decisions baked into it
02:06 < vortexx> I know fedora uses it by default now
02:06 < AShapiro> like using a binary hive to store policy
02:06 < vortexx> but good luck with that
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02:06 < oldlaptop> hasn't fedora used it by default for donkey's years?
02:06 < vortexx> I don't even know what hive to store is
02:07 < vortexx> oldlaptop: yes
02:07 < AShapiro> i mean there's a directory full of binary files where the actual policy lives, and all the tools you use to manipulate policy are subtly changing those files
02:07 < oldlaptop> (meaning everyone who actually uses fedora has disabled it for donkey's years)
02:07 < AShapiro> and it's just weird and difficult to inspect and probably some optimization that maybe made sense 15 years ago but in retrospect is really silly
02:07 < vortexx> but then I've been using things for decades and I just could never be bothered with poorly documented guesswork config files
02:07 < AShapiro> i have one cloud server where i've kept selinux enabled just for the challenge, and it's a pain to get anything non-trivial working with it
02:08 < oldlaptop> AShapiro: I could see an argument for using sqlite for that nowadays.
02:08 < oldlaptop> (Perhaps not quite as much fifteen years ago.)
02:08 < AShapiro> frankly a flat text file full of regexes would be even better than that
02:08 < oldlaptop> in large part precisely because sqlite isn't (or need not be) particularly opaque
02:08 < vortexx> AShapiro: the main problem I think with SELinux is it was designed in the 90s, probably on linux 1.x, with all the bagage of that era of UNIX administration
02:09 < AShapiro> whatever happened to "grsec"? i remember that being a thing
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02:09 < vortexx> it appeared because $admin in the US gov decided ok we're going with linux for many systems, now secure this
02:09 < AShapiro> so, a box-ticking exercise. that tracks
02:09 < vortexx> they may even have ported stuff from other *NIX to make SELinux
02:09 < oldlaptop> AShapiro: Some sort of linux patchset to do things that openbsd does by default, IIRC. There was some legal drama about it some time ago, I though?
02:09 < oldlaptop> Or maybe that was "PaX".
02:10 < vortexx> grsec probably still exists :P
02:10 < vortexx> patchsets never die 
02:10 < oldlaptop> (Probably somewhat beyond things openbsd does by default and into things openbsd doesn't do because they're impractical or otherwise bad ideas.)
02:10 < AShapiro> what i like about pledge and unveil is how comparatively late they came out. obsd's focus for so long has been to see how hard you can harden things without breaking out of the traditional unix security model
02:11 < oldlaptop> knobs being for brilliant, interesting people who are totally choosing the correct way to use their time
02:11 < AShapiro> but in the end it was useful to add a few things too, but with the great benefit of being able to look backwards
02:11 < AShapiro> at what a mess they made of linux security in the meantime
02:11 < vortexx> when I was learning how to do routers and firewalls, I landed on something called TrinityOS, which was basically a config set to apply to RH systems
02:11 < vortexx> I did learn a lot through that but got hacked none the less
02:11 < oldlaptop> AShapiro: Tellingly, *OpenBSD* had a predecessor system of its own, that was too complicated to use effectively and was therefore used for approximately one handful of programs.
02:12 < AShapiro> didn't know that
02:12 < oldlaptop> (Including sysjail which turned out, years after it was written, to not actually work at all.)
02:12 < Tingo> during installing FreeBSD it was saying about Security Hardening ( hide_uids, hide_jails, hide_gids, read_msgbuf, disable_ddtrace) its good feature in installation..
02:12 < oldlaptop> https://man.openbsd.org/OpenBSD-5.9/systrace
02:13 < vortexx> Tingo: you can play with those, probably won't affect much
02:13 < oldlaptop> IIRC openssh used systrace(4) to sandbox itself in the old days.
02:13 < vortexx> Tingo: but most of the time don't turn things on unless you know what you're doing. Those are mostly for multiuser systems
02:13 < oldlaptop> There were a few others.
02:13 < AShapiro> i can't imagine using anything multiuser (in the classic sense) other than openbsd
02:13 < Tingo> hmm..
02:14 < AShapiro> it's such a deprecated usecase and you can be assured there's oodles of local privesc available on every other unixlike os. they're not really working on it
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02:14 < AShapiro> but i helped run a public shell server on openbsd for years and our users were the scum of the earth
02:14 < AShapiro> and none of them ever owned us
02:15 < oldlaptop> Tingo: On openbsd, if you have to ask, don't touch the knob.
02:15 < jcs> (that you know about)
02:15 < AShapiro> that we know about, sure
02:15 < tommyrot> maybe there wasn't much to gain from it
02:15 < AShapiro> but let me assure you
02:15 < AShapiro> plenty were motivated
02:15 < oldlaptop> (Much of the time there won't be one to start with.)
02:15 < vortexx> AShapiro: there used to be a patch set for OpenBSD called Stephanie in the 2002-2005 era which helped to secure stuff for multiuser and anonymise services run by users... Undernet #openbsd was the home for it. Was never accepted into mainbranch
02:15 < AShapiro> and a lot of them used our systems to commit internet crimes elsewhere
02:16 < AShapiro> hmm that's around when we had metawire going. i don't think we used it though
02:16 < Tingo> oldlaptop: OK.. i was just saying about it..
02:16 < vortexx> AShapiro: did this public shell server get shut down then?
02:17 < AShapiro> multiple times
02:17 < AShapiro> eventually we ran out of places willing to host us
02:17 < AShapiro> and folded for good
02:17 < vortexx> I can't imagine running one of those, depending on municipality
02:17 < AShapiro> there was plenty of innocuous activity too. it was, on net, a good community.
02:17 < AShapiro> but yeah, just a bit too hot
02:17 < AShapiro> and attracted its share of DoS, naturally
02:17 < vortexx> yeah SDF are still out there
02:17 < AShapiro> sdf is so ridiculously locked down, is the thing
02:18 < AShapiro> can't do anything there
02:18 < vortexx> that's half the point
02:18 < Tingo> finally sets has been downloaded... now Relinking to create Unique Kernel . Good. :) .. Rebooting
02:18 < vortexx> most people who want anon shell is to either run a bot farm or to do spam
02:18 < AShapiro> i'd say half of our users just wanted to run a bnc
02:18 < vortexx> Tingo: nearly there
02:19 < AShapiro> and we gave everyone a mailbox and a webroot, so there were a lot of random personal pages being hosted too
02:19 < vortexx> AShapiro: yeah those are the kinda ok people
02:19 < vortexx> angelfire days :P
02:20 < AShapiro> it was a better time
02:20 < Tingo> Now a days DoS and DDoS attacks are easily can be blocked by Network devices..
02:20 < vortexx> Tingo: those are always better blocked at the ISP level
02:20 < AShapiro> until they're big enough and then you're getting very angry calls from your host
02:20 < oldlaptop> AShapiro: The thing about that now is... why would you bother with a 'real' multiuser unix system when you can rent a whole VM (and get root on it!) for peanuts
02:20 < vortexx> I remember the msblaster attack in 2003
02:21 < AShapiro> i don't like the cloudflareization of the internet and it's largely due to DoS getting too big for anyone to handle without a Big Buddy hanging out in front of you to absorb it
02:21 < oldlaptop> (in fact the Dark Lord Larry is still in "free tier" loss-leader mode, IIRC)
02:21 < AShapiro> everyone has been forced into the arms of a handful of providers, and there's always a sacrifice
02:21 < AShapiro> oldlaptop: indeed he is, and i am taking good advantage of it
02:21 < AShapiro> got two obsd vms in oci right now on always free tier
02:22 < AShapiro> still amazed that of all companies, it's oracle that's willing to give people something useful for free
02:22 < Tingo> Charnoyble Virus :)
02:22 < AShapiro> msblast was a lucrative summer for me
02:22 < AShapiro> went around chicago with a laptop fixing ppls computers
02:24 < vortexx> yeah that would have worked out quite well
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02:24 < vortexx> but the major one was that attack on MSSQL on port 1434 iirc
02:24 < AShapiro> sql slammer!
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02:25 < vortexx> our routing people weren't seeing anything but client services were falling down over and over again
02:25 < vortexx> yep
02:25 < AShapiro> the golden age of worms ended up abruptly when everyone implemented wifi, which naturally meant having a nat device as your gateway
02:25 < vortexx> datacenter firewalls blocked 1434/tcp and it got a lot better a lot quicker
02:25 < AShapiro> i still remember when most ppl had one house computer with a public IP and that was it.
02:25 < vortexx> yeah I remember that too
02:26 < AShapiro> and some ISPs would try to punish you for "hiding" more of them using that tricksy nat
02:26 < AShapiro> that ended fast
02:26 < vortexx> my local ISP claimed you had 500mb of traffic/monthly
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02:26 < vortexx> but there counter was completely out of whack
02:26 < vortexx> (this was 1999)
02:26 < Tingo> with public IP assigned to PC by ISP ?AShapiro
02:26 < vortexx> s/there/their
02:26 < AShapiro> Tingo: yep
02:26 < AShapiro> that was pretty much the early broadband era
02:27 < AShapiro> half the time there was some PPPoE finagling required to get online, too
02:27 < vortexx> Tingo: I have a public IP on my home service, have for decades
02:27 < Tingo> hmm.. DialUp Modem or DSL/ISDN ?
02:27 < AShapiro> thankfully i never had to deal with that
02:27 < vortexx> not everyone is on CGNAT
02:27 < AShapiro> Tingo: would've applied to dialup, DSL, or cable for a while
02:27 < vortexx> yep
02:27 < AShapiro> and CGNAT is an indignity only a few years old. i don't think either of my two ISPs is forcing it yet
02:27 < Tingo> now ISP charge for dedicated Public IP..
02:28 < vortexx> so does mine, 20CHF a month
02:28 < vortexx> it's worth it cos I run services behind my router
02:28 < Tingo> are you from Swiss ?
02:28 < AShapiro> one of my ISPs is funny. like a lot of them, they'll only offer a static IP if you're a business-tier customer... unless you're on one of their super high-bandwidth residential plans
02:28 < vortexx> I probably could finagle dyndns something but I just can't be bothered
02:28 < vortexx> Tingo: yes I live in Switzerland
02:29 < AShapiro> but that's only because those are PON-less fiber (you have a direct circuit to the CO, more or less)
02:29 < AShapiro> and they just provision them from the same stack as their business customers
02:29 < vortexx> AShapiro: you're in the US?
02:29 < AShapiro> i am
02:29 < vortexx> right
02:29 < AShapiro> but in an exceptionally lucky part of it
02:29 < AShapiro> where a boutique ISP bought out the local ILEC
02:29 < Tingo> vortexx .. Wow.. i love Swiss, i have been Geneva, Brienz, Interlaken, Gstaad, Saneen :) beautifull memories
02:30 < AShapiro> and i can get 50gbit synchronous fiber from the phone company
02:30 < AShapiro> if i'm willing to fork out a house payment for it
02:30 < AShapiro> lol
02:30 < mybalzitch> $1200/mo ?
02:30 < AShapiro> yeah i think it's a grand
02:30 < vortexx> here if you have fiber coverage you can get 25Gbit fiber but it's shared like cable used to be 20 years ago iirc
02:30 < AShapiro> doesn't seem like a good value prop, tbh. there is just no way a residential user can consume that much, and i imagine they have a TOS keeping you from, like, sharing it
02:31 < AShapiro> vortexx: yeah the fact that there's no PON in the loop is what's mind blowing about these plans. 
02:31 < mybalzitch> everyone who lives in my house
02:31 < AShapiro> they just terminate your fiber with an SFP+ connector and say "go plug this into something"
02:31 < Tingo> Swiss.. Train Tracks and System is Best even on Mountains :) Brienz Steam train
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02:31 < vortexx> and it's the same price as what I'm currently paying for VDSL (100/32) (my village is due to get fiber this year)
02:31 < mybalzitch> still no 3/5g in my area. goddamn trash 1.5/940
02:31 < vortexx> AShapiro: yeah you're lucky, PON ... pita
02:32 < vortexx> Tingo: keep on topic, but yes we have decent trains
02:32 < Tingo> well, Openbsd has been boot and logged in first time from user and then $ su -
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02:32 < AShapiro> now time to set up doas.conf so you don't need to do that again :)
02:33 < vortexx> Tingo: OpenBSD user as prompted by installer will add you to wheel so you can su - to root
02:33 < Tingo> fdisk -l is not showing even df -tH and lsblk ? :)
02:33 < vortexx> lsblk is a linuxism
02:34 < AShapiro> you want to be looking at the disklabel, not the partition table
02:34 < AShapiro> normally you'll just have one partition marked 'openbsd'. (or two if you're uefi booting)
02:34 < Tingo> want to see partition table
02:35 < Tingo> fdisk -l should show partition table..
02:35 < vortexx> Tingo: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html
02:35 < AShapiro> -l is not a valid flag for obsd fdisk
02:35 < AShapiro> if you just run # fdisk device it'll print the partition table
02:36 < AShapiro> but like i said it's not very interesting
02:36 < AShapiro> for example, here's mine:
02:36 < AShapiro> $ doas fdisk sd0
02:36 < AShapiro> Disk: sd0       Usable LBA: 34 to 97677278 [97677312 Sectors] #: type                                 [       start:         size ]
02:36 < AShapiro> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 0: EFI Sys                              [          64:       532480 ] 1: OpenBSD                              [      532544:     97144735 ]
02:36 < vortexx> disklabel /dev/sd0c
02:36 < AShapiro> darn, newline got chomped there
02:36 < AShapiro> but you get the picture
02:36 < vortexx> will probably cover your needs
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02:37 < vortexx> Tingo: please read the whole FAQ, it will answer 99% of your questions
02:37 < AShapiro> think of it as a bsd-specific partition table within the partition table. 
02:37 < AShapiro> openbsd's installer will allocate one big partition to be the 'openbsd area', and then it'll got chopped up with disklabel
02:37 < AShapiro> but you won't see that in the mbr or gpt
02:37 < vortexx> AShapiro: as the topic suggest, try clbin.com ?
02:38 < Tingo> hmm find out from dmesg its fdisk wd0a
02:38 < AShapiro> vortexx: thanks, will use that in the future
02:39 < Tingo> fdisk -l wd0a is for showing only blocks
02:39 < vortexx> Tingo: due to being designed originally in the 1970s, BSD on i386 and then amd64 uses a partition, also known as a slice, within which the OpenBSD partitions live
02:40 < AShapiro> disklabel /dev/wd0c will show what you're (probably) looking for
02:40 < vortexx> AShapiro: yw
02:40 < AShapiro> per vortexx's suggestion earlier
02:40 < vortexx> does vmware present an IDE drive to OpenBSD ?
02:41 < vortexx> you'd hope for something more actual, but I haven't used VMWare in over a decade
02:41 < AShapiro> it can if you want, but i use a scsi drive in my vm
02:41 < AShapiro> openbsd supports vmware pvscsi too, which is nice
02:41 < vortexx> wd is for IDE, sd covers sata and sd etc drives
02:41 < Tingo> yes, it has been chosen IDE..
02:42 < vortexx> ok then disklabel wd0c
02:42 < vortexx> no wonder it was running so slowly
02:43 < Tingo> fdisk wd0a .. Ok.. but where this wd0c came from :) ?
02:44 < Tingo> disklable wd0a .. device is busy
02:45 < Tingo> well, i start to study about OpenBSD more ..
02:46 < vortexx> wd0c represent the whole drive, it is an 80s BSDism from when winchester drives came in
02:47 < vortexx> if you've ever messed with OS/370 on Hercules, it's much much worse on how drives are managed over there
02:48 < vortexx> VMWare may not have an up to date model for OpenBSD, you should be able to use a SATA or NvMW drive at a minimum
02:48 < vortexx> but for now you've got something booting
02:48 < martian67> it would be nice to get rid of that old weird janky convention
02:48 < martian67> but not really much upside i guess
02:48 < Tingo> rcctl instead of systemctl .. interesting..
02:48 < martian67> but it is highly weird
02:49 < vortexx> martian67: it's an artifact
02:49 < oldlaptop> It's better than having an MBR, at least
02:49 < oldlaptop> which stopped being much of a consideration about ten years ago
02:49 < martian67> yeah, lots of systems dont even have a partition format really
02:49 < martian67> like arm
02:49 < vortexx> oldlaptop: 12 years ago at least
02:49 < oldlaptop> or having only an MBR
02:50 < martian67> so you need something
02:50 < Tingo> btw.. GPT is better then MBR now a days..
02:50 < vortexx> Tingo: rcctl isn't as convoluted as systemctl but you can consider it equivalent
02:50 < martian67> Tingo: sure but GPT isnt everywhere openbsd is
02:50 < martian67> so you cant rely on it
02:50 < oldlaptop> unlike systemctl, rcctl is not, strictly speaking, necessary
02:51 < vortexx> martian67: I'd rather the OS handle what the disk is, not the arch it's on
02:51 < martian67> sure but ultimately it cant be untangled from bootloader weirdness
02:51 < martian67> so there is some crossover no matter what
02:51 < vortexx> yeah bootloader on arm and riscV...
02:51 < Tingo> hmm.. /etc/rc.d/sshd check
02:52 < vortexx> unbelievable how they decided to make it even worse than on amd64
02:52 < oldlaptop> never underestimate hardware vendors
02:52 < martian67> considering ARM is totally fucked as a platform it makes perfect sense lol
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02:55 < vortexx> the writing was on the wall for MBR when IA64 was launched, which also gave us EFI
02:56 < martian67> or disks got bigger than 4tb :)
02:56 < vortexx> the proof of that was Apple going to x64 and they of course had EFI and GPT
02:56  * oldlaptop would question that, as opposed to "when a computer people actually bought shipped with efi"
02:56 < vortexx> (IA64 failing as an enterprise arch deserves many many chapters)
02:57 < vortexx> oldlaptop: there was also the "your EFI bootloader maskeraded for years as MBR till OSes caught up"
02:58  * oldlaptop managed to own no EFI hardware whatsoever until 2017 or something
02:58 < martian67> you can do some extremely perverse shit and boot from GPT partitions with an MBR
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02:58 < oldlaptop> now I'm weird, but still.
02:58 < martian67> and other insane horrors
02:58 < martian67> openbsd doesnt support that though
02:58 < vortexx> yeah but your handle indicates you spent time escaping that
02:59 < vortexx> I recently found a guide to sign the OpenBSD bootloader so you can boot via UEFI signed mode
02:59 < oldlaptop> no EFI laptops until... hm, when did I break down and start buying sandy bridge thinkpads, a couple years ago?
02:59 < oldlaptop> core2 was usable for a loooong time
03:00 < vortexx> oldlaptop: but you bought that AMD desktop circa 2015-2017?
03:00 < vortexx> or was it later than that?
03:00 < oldlaptop> I ran out and built an AM4 box as soon as the hardware was available in 2017
03:01 < oldlaptop> (this motherboard has two serial ports *and* a parallel port, by the way (as dupont headers). I thought that was pretty cool.)
03:01 < oldlaptop> No floppy controller, alas.
03:01 < vortexx> (yeah that was a nice extra)
03:02 < vortexx> see I did remember :P
03:02 < Tingo> which bootloader does it use for AMD and for ARM based ?
03:02 < vortexx> amd64 is efi these days
03:02 < oldlaptop> Tingo: "ARM based" is a mess. Some are EFI, some are weirder.
03:02 < vortexx> ARM depends 
03:02 < vortexx> uboot or efi iirc
03:03 < Tingo> hmm..
03:03 < oldlaptop> A fair bit of ARM hardware reeeeeally only boots whatever weird custom linux kernel the vendor shipped at the time (and hasn't bothered updating)
03:03 < vortexx> https://www.openbsd.org/arm64.html
03:04 < vortexx> oldlaptop: or things maskerading as that linux kernel
03:04 < oldlaptop> (see also the accursed boot process openbsd/mac68k used (and I guess netbsd still uses))
03:05 < vortexx> hehe
03:05 < martian67> doesnt it load macos from the rom, then load via some fucked up macos extension :D
03:05 < martian67> truely horrifying stuff
03:06 < martian67> its like running openbsd.exe and it turns windows into openbsd
03:06 < oldlaptop> the horror really starts with how much of macos is burned into ROM
03:06 < oldlaptop> and just goes downhill from there
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03:07 < vortexx> you should see the mess it is trying to get a linux kernel booted on my SGI Visual Station... the VSW320 will accept things that the VSW540 won't. They're the ONLY ARC firmware PCs out there
03:07 < Tingo> OAMP has been installed :)
03:07 < vortexx> Tingo: well done
03:07 < Tingo> OpenBSD Apache MariaDB PHP..
03:08 < oldlaptop> Well, one out of four is better than nothing
03:09 < Tingo> can i reconfigure it kernel for adding more modules support ?
03:10 < oldlaptop> OpenBSD's kernel does not support loadable modules.
03:10 < oldlaptop> (It used to, long ago. That was removed for being useless; normal drivers were never loadable modules)
03:11 < vortexx> (we never recommend this but you can edit the config file for the kernel to change things, but NOT A SINGLE NORMAL USER need this, it's for devs)
03:11 < oldlaptop> if you ever have a reason to care about that, it's generally to *disable* some driver for troubleshooting
03:12 < Tingo> hmm..
03:13 < vortexx> (back in the silly days of RAIDFRAME (since replaced by softraid) I was running a router with a RAID1 partition for / with two /boot partitions containing bsd (one on each disk)
03:13 < vortexx> this was unwieldy and wrong
03:14 < Tingo> RAID 1 .. Mirrorning
03:15 < vortexx> (the kernel had to be told in the config file (thus recompile) which was the boot partition and the root partition, it was inelegant and prone to break on update)
03:16 < vortexx> luckily we have moved on from then
03:16 < vortexx> hardware is a tad more reliable, so even routers can live on an ssd
03:16 < vortexx> Tingo: booting on RAID wasn't possible till softraid came along
03:17 < vortexx> we have much lore
03:17 < vortexx> booting on RAID is still restricted to 0, 1 and crypto
03:17 < vortexx> raid5 and 6 can't be
03:20 < vortexx> Tingo: no one reconfigures the OpenBSD kernel to change things, it's not worth it, Better to fix what the problem is with the package
03:22 < Tingo> yea, i am not yet touching its kernel..was just asking..
03:22 < vortexx> sysctl will help you ajust things, just like on linux
03:26 < Tingo> well, time to go..Tomorrow will go more in deep of OpenBSD well,  vortexx Thanks for Chat !! See Yaa
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13:01 < MiniontobyPI> uhmm guys
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13:01 < MiniontobyPI> with gre tunnel I get "bad tcp cksum b1ee! -> 469b" error
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13:29 < MiniontobyPI> and also 'bad udp cksum f37e! -> c653'
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13:40 < Posterdati> hi
13:41 < Posterdati> please help
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13:42 < Posterdati> I have a problem compiling a simple program using opendev(): I linked against -lc -lclang -lutil but I always got undefined symbol for opendev during linking. Thanks for any help
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13:48 < Posterdati> fixed!
13:48 < Posterdati> was a stupid error inside the makefile :)
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14:42 < drevil> Good morning folks. I have an instance of OpenBSD 7.4 running in QEMU/KVM. Whenever the CARP interfaces change state, it crashes with "openbsd protection fault trap rt_ifa_del"
14:42 < drevil> Anyone seen this before?
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16:40 < drevil> Good morning folks. I have an instance of OpenBSD 7.4 running in QEMU/KVM. Whenever the CARP interfaces change state, it crashes with "openbsd protection fault trap rt_ifa_del"
16:40 < drevil> Anyone seen this before?
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17:20 < sibiria> drevil: i can't recall it being brought up in here at least. i suggest you have a look on the mailing lists
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17:25 < zorz> https://www.rt.com/russia/599806-dagestan-shootings-police/
17:25 < zorz> sorry...! wrong #channel
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20:43 < typicat> :wq
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21:00 < quinq> :x
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21:29 < ForeverNoob[m]> Hi, are there any ready-made scripts I can use to configure a wireguard client specific for Mullvad? The script contained here seems to drop / timeout for me: https://www.unitedbsd.com/d/421-setting-up-a-wireguard-vpn-connection-on-openbsd-how-to
21:31 -!- jacobk [~quassel@2600:1700:9e1e:7800:2c94:5a14:bbc3:b280] has joined #openbsd
21:31 < ForeverNoob[m]> You could say that this guide is minimal yeah, a bit too minimal though: https://ianix.com/wireguard/openbsd-howto.html - Like it says "Finally, it's helpful to have a couple shell scripts to enable or disable the VPN. Put something like this into /etc/wireguard/enable.sh:  #!/bin/sh route add 192.0.2.42 192.168.0.1 ; route change default 10.0.0.1 Replace 192.0.2.42 with the actual public IP
21:31 < ForeverNoob[m]> address of the remote WireGuard server, in case you want to directly SSH to it. Replace 192.168.0.1 with your typical (non-VPN) router/gateway IP address." - But Mullvad public IPs are different than their endpoint IPs. So should I just... not add / change any routes?
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21:36 < thrig> presumably mullvad has documentation and scripts?
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21:39 < ForeverNoob[m]> thrig: Yes, but not for OpenBSD :)
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23:23 < ForeverNoob[m]> drkhsh: Hi, found your guide here: https://drkhsh.at/2023-03-02_openbsd-mullvad-wireguard.html - But when I try to follow it I get the following errors: https://0x0.st/XAv4.txt
23:24 < ForeverNoob[m]> When I tried to search for these errors I got 0 results lol
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23:27 < ForeverNoob[m]> Gotta say, Linux gets some pluspoints from me on the simplicity and ease of configuration for wireguard / mullvad. This has been an outright pain so far on OpenBSD.
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--- Log closed Mon Jun 24 00:00:22 2024