--- Log opened Wed Jul 17 00:00:07 2024
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06:28 < benrc6> Is chromium and or ungoogled-chromium still recommended over Firefox on OpenBSD?
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06:29 < byteskeptical> recommended by?
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06:29 < benrc6> anecdotally online
06:29 < benrc6> I could be mistaken
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06:33 < byteskeptical> I really meant depends on who is making the recommendation in relation to what they are prioritizing for
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06:46 < finkfox> hi. From my local machine A I'm connecting to sshd server on machine C via another sshd server on machine B using "ProxyJump" setting in ~/.ssh/config.
06:46 < finkfox> the private key that is needed to connected to C is loaded in ssh-agent. the connection works fine.
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06:47 < finkfox> however, when I remove the key (e.g. ssh-add -D) and kill ssh-agent (e.g. pkill ssh-agent) the connection is still established.
06:48 < finkfox> it seems machine B somehow caches the private key. How can I avoid or verify that?
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07:01 < byteskeptical> finkfox: key checking is done as a form of authentication if your already connected and authenticated then removing the key from the agent after the fact won't affect existing connections. You could have no keepalive or a super short one
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07:02 < byteskeptical> but that will probably not produce an enjoyable experience
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07:21 < finkfox> byteskeptical: could you elaborate a bit more? after removing the key from the agent, I also closed the connection, even restarted the sshd on server B. Yet the connection still works without prompting for private key passphrase.
07:23 < halcon> Helo i have VMM server with 1 VM, and i would like to connecte it to the internet, what could be the options please? it is at home.
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07:25 < finkfox> just to make sure, if I understand correctly ssh public/private key authentication works something like this: C offers a token, which is then signed by A with private key K_prv, and then verified by C using  ~/.ssh/authorized_keys.
07:25 < finkfox> how is this process when proxyjump B is involved?
07:27 < finkfox> does B forward the token to A? What happens on reconnection?
07:27 < quinq> “It cause ssh(1) to connect to the target host by first making a ssh(1) connection to the specified ProxyJump host and then establishing a TCP forwarding to the ultimate target from there.”
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07:27 < quinq> halcon, you have some examples there: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq16.html#VMMnet
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07:31 < halcon> quinq thank you, do you know how to do it? i do not know how to do it, could it be with ip that change every few hours or i need a permanent ip?
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07:40 < finkfox> byteskeptical: TCPKeepAlive and ServerAlive* is disabled on A, TCPKeepAlive and ClientAlive* is disabled on B and C.
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08:44 < sonya> hello.. need an advise.. is it worth to provide port for 'mdf2iso' (conversion tool for images from mdf/mds to iso), or it's just too dumb simple to get a single file from git? (https://github.com/excitoon/mdf2iso/blob/master/mdf2iso) thanks..
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09:36 < byteskeptical> sonya: you can submit the port to ports@ and see if anyone with commit access accepts it
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09:39 < sonya> ok..
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12:59 < dfdx> < sonya> hello.. need an advise.. is it worth to provide port for 'mdf2iso' (conversion tool for images from mdf/mds to iso), or it's just too dumb simple to get a single file from git?
13:00 < dfdx> I personally don't think it's dumb. One example would be if this tool is, for whatever reason, a dependency for another package. Having it in ports would mean one wouldn't need to fiddle manually with the installation. Everything could get pulled in via pkg_add.
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13:02 < sonya> dfdx: oh no.. this tool is just for conversion between cd/dvd image formats (mdf/mds is quite popular for windows).. 
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13:02 < sonya> that's why i think the way i do :)
13:04 < sonya> as we have already 'bchunk' in ports, but no tool to cope with mdf/mds
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19:15 < polarian> So a mobile phone is pretty much mandatory these days, so what phones do OpenBSD users tend to pick... considering security and privacy implications on the choices 
19:17 < strajder> the more one uses a mobile phone, the less security and privacy there is
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19:23 < vortexx> polarian: I stopped caring about phones and haven't upgraded in 6 years. Basically it's like computers, don't do stupid things on the phone and bad things usually won't happen.
19:24 < pony> you could disconnect it from the net and just use it for sms/calls
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19:33 < polarian> strajder: indeed... but you have no choice... especially in the time where in order to get a decent interest rate I need to choose a branchless bank and they do app-only 
19:33 < polarian> so I have no chocie 
19:34 < polarian> its easier to suck up the privacy and security problems and live a life than worrying about something I can't fix 
19:34 < polarian> vortexx: no security patches then... once the phone goes EOL you are pretty screwed...
19:34 < polarian> I run an EOL device, flame (Google Pixel 4), running DivestOS
19:36 < sibiria> what's DivestOS like? do you know how it compares to graphene?
19:38 < byteskeptical> vortexx: doesn't apply when a sms can pawn your device, I don't think anyone considers that a stupid thing to do on a phone
19:39 < byteskeptical> probably has more valuable info/access than your computers
19:40 < sibiria> you don't know if an SMS can do that until it's been confirmed this or that OS suffers such an exploit
19:40 < access> Who tickled me?
19:40 < access> o.O
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19:44 < byteskeptical> sibiria: sure but not updating at all makes you knowing kind of irrelavent. Point is you can't necessarly get away with hoping and just using your phone for 'non-stupid' things
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20:59  * sonya is still using nokia 7610 and 1100 :) .. batteries are cheap on aliexpress, the rest works, banking - online via (obsd, heh) pc ..
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21:11 < souji> For a user which is only used to upload/update files for a static website; Do you think this ssh config makes sense: https://clbin.com/je0xB ? And having the users home set to a directory in the web root?
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21:32 < sibiria> souji: you don't need to set AuthorizedKeysFile again, it's set correctly by default and you may want to keep it available to the user so they can update their keys themselves
21:33 < sibiria> other than that it looks normal, just like a typical forced sftp-only chroot 
21:33 < sibiria> remember to create their home dir-tree correctly as well
21:34 < souji> sibiria: ok, thank you a lot. And true I might remove the AuthorizedKeysFile from this snippet 
21:36 < souji> what do you mean create their home dir-tree? How I understand the man page, the home directory dont actually need any content when sftp is forced.
21:36 < sibiria> it's about preventing them from breaking out of the chroot
21:37 < vortexx> byteskeptical: p0wning by SMS... Yeah that's your every day attack I'm sure, not. Of course a phone that isn't updated is more vulnerable, mine got an update in Nov 2022 for the last time. I don't run a gazillion apps, which helps reduce the risk level.
21:37 < sibiria> typically the actual home dir is root-owned, and within you have the user's controllable home
21:38 < souji> ohh you mean that the directy needs to be owned by root and no one else can write to it?
21:38 < sibiria> souji: yes
21:38 < souji> sibiria: ok, gotcha thx :)
21:39 < souji> IIRC OpenSSH don't even allow the login of the user if the permissions are wrong.
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21:47 < byteskeptical> vortexx: doesn't have to be that's the attackers advantage and was only an example of normal operations that can get you pwned and would be prevented by updating. To say nothing of ss7 hijacking, wifi implementation bugs (parsing, routing leaks [i.e vpns]), bluetooth...  
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23:24 < polarian> sibiria: Well DivestOS continues to patch EOL devices... however it is only a single developer who compiles it all on his home hardware... you got to trust the developer isn't shipping you malicious code, then again you got to trust Graphene isn't (strcat has been known to have revenge targets, which is why people have adviced against GrapheneOS under fears of this, strcat simply declares them an
23:24 < polarian> "enemy")
23:24 < polarian> not to mention the allegation of calix trying to murder him 
23:25 < polarian> I believe it was a calix developer he accused of trying to get the swat to shoot him
23:26 < polarian> I personally like reusing old tech, I do not like throwing away working devices, so I think DivestOS is the best bet to claw back some security, but EOL devices will never be "secure
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23:26 < polarian> also you got to bare in mind that android codebase is sprawling and unmaintainable... from an OpenBSD point of view, security + android is impossible
23:27 < polarian> vortexx: does your phone support a custom ROM?
23:27 < polarian> at least patching the open source stuff limits the attack surface area
23:28 < polarian> but the Linux kernel has hundreds of security patches each month
23:28 < polarian> DivestOS has a tool to pull these patches and apply them 
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23:29 < polarian> However it does seem postmarketos and its mainlining goal is the best bet, but then again the Linux codebase is sprawling too
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23:33 < sibiria> i like the integrity and privacy angle marketed by grapheneOS, but they're quite fast to EOL support for devices
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23:33 < sibiria> aggressive deprecation policy
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23:34 < polarian> It seems the currently widespread security standards is 1. abandon C, adopt rust (which OpenBSD opposes) 2. Provide multiple layers of isolation, through both containerisation and virtualisation 3. slap SELinux (or another MAC) into the problem
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23:34 < polarian> It doesn't seem like modern codebases care about lines of code and maintainability... 
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23:35 < polarian> when you ask "how do I learn C" you get told, read "The c programming language" which is straight out of bell labs as C was intended :P, and "Read the OpenBSD src tree"
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23:35 < polarian> The latter comment proves the importance of rigid coding standards...
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23:35 < polarian> sibiria: because they only care about OEM supported devices... 
23:36 < polarian> But they proxy everything... which I don't think I trust either... DivestOS strips out useless network connections, DivestOS proxy it all through their servers...
23:37 < polarian> GrapheneOS deblobs what won't break the system, DivestOS deblobs regardless if it breaks things 
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23:38 < sibiria> last i looked at graphene, it had a very rough polish. camera not working (or producing image material that looked like a 2000s webcam), poor power saving etc.
23:39 < sibiria> jerky and stuttering graphics updates was also the case
23:39 < armin> polarian: There is actually a too strong focus on, uhm, focusing on something. As stupid as this might sound. You can totally learn C by examples.
23:40 < armin> You also don't need to know everything, it's good when you're good I say
23:40 < polarian> sibiria: Graphene is known to be slow... it has very extensive isolation to ensure a vulnerable app doesn't affect the entire system 
23:41 < polarian> it also uses hardened malloc
23:41 < polarian> which I believe was a fork of OpenBSD's malloc 
23:41 < armin> That stuff is a total horror to debug, and there's NO way this would be more comfortable by just switching the language here, the problem at hand is the complexity. Not the tool used.
23:42 < armin> OpenBSD is perfect, it's just a tiny bit slow.
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23:42 < polarian> armin: but it seems its nievity, that "rewrite the code in rust" is simple
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23:42 < polarian> and, from the looks of it and the metrics from rust in the Linux kernel... the majority of rust developers are young 
23:42 < polarian> my age basically (university age)
23:43 < armin> polarian: Yup that won't just magically work for everything because they're 2000 meters more upwards than we are.
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23:43 < polarian> I get laughed at for being interested in C, because I am meant to be the generation of change, the generation which puts rust as #1 language not C
23:43 < polarian> but rust is... overrated...
23:43  * topcat001 hammer... nail...
23:44 < polarian> Rust is unstandardised too, it can change whenever it wants...
23:44 < armin> Yea it is, but we need to be careful hating on it because it's pretty sane...
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23:44 < polarian> and they have this idea that code needs to be as concise as possible, where there is a macro to do everything... but this makes everything difficult to debug... and when I tried it... there was 3 ways of doing everything
23:45 < armin> It will take some 10 or 15 years to mature, it's far too early to say I believe.
23:45 < polarian> yet Touvalds is fast tracking it into the linux kernel now... he used to be against it but he said that the linux developers are getting old and the younger generation need to take over, and they want rust, so Linux will adopt rust
23:45 < polarian> so linux will turn into Firefox I guess, half rust half C
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23:46 < armin> polarian: This sounds like a perfect start for a systemd discussion...
23:47 < polarian> armin: systemd argues they are the most secure init + utils 
23:47 < polarian> in fact wasn't a new sudo replacement just announced?
23:47 < polarian> stating sudo and doas are shit and that they needed to write a sudo replacement as part of systemd because nobody has done it securely enough?
23:48 < armin> polarian: I would argue that my software is the most beautiful and logical in the world too, do you think that's true?
23:48 < polarian> never read your code :P
23:48 < armin> lol
23:48 < armin> :D
23:48 < polarian> nor would I probably understand it
23:49 < armin> As if I remotely understood every fragment of a god damn shell prompt to begin with
23:49 < polarian> I am quite cringe in programming aspect, my C is god awful (its on my todo list to improve), the only language I could comfortable use is Java or Python... saying "write it in Java" would liekly get me shot here :P
23:49 < armin> I can still explain $PS1 and $PROMPT and $RPROMPT and env and whatnot, but wow holy cow I maybe know 5%
23:50  * polarian likely couldn't explain that
23:50 < armin> my BASH is pretty damn good though
23:50 < armin> like yea, actually good.
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23:50 < polarian> BSD doesn't like bashisms or linuxisms :P
23:51 < polarian> probably the easiest way to piss off a BSD User :P
23:51 < armin> Well I love BSD, I use it every single day. 
23:51 < polarian> do you use bash on BSD :P
23:51 < armin> of course, but zsh as a login shell if you're really curious.
23:51 < AShapiro> i do. i love having a GNU environment. but i don't like running a GNU OS.
23:52 < polarian> I daily drive a FreeBSD laptop (I do want a OpenBSD laptop, but there is no denying FreeBSD is the more stable pick)
23:52 < polarian> AShapiro: why?
23:52 < armin> I hate GNU with a passion and I really needed to circumvent it I would.
23:52 < AShapiro> bash is the most evolved bourne shell and i like that it gets just to the edge, feature-wise, of stuff i'd really like to be able to do in the shell before having to pivot to a proper scripting language
23:52 < AShapiro> esp. associative arrays, built-in regex, network sockets
23:52 < polarian> bigger != better
23:52 < polarian> KISS :)
23:53 < polarian> if you need to use network sockets... I think it would be time to whip out good old C
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23:53 < armin> pff, for an interactive shell: zsh > bash, for a non-interactive shell, I'm tempted to agree on the "* > bash" argument my friends kept bringing up over the last 15 years...
23:53 < AShapiro> nah there's very few cases i'd want to dip into C
23:53 < AShapiro> but bash keeps me from having to write perl
23:54 < AShapiro> and imho zsh is just for ricers. i don't need special interactive features or extra-magical completion. 
23:54 < AShapiro> i thought it was pretty cringe when apple made zsh the default in macOS
23:54 < AShapiro> first thing i do on any system (including all my OpenBSD boxes) is get bash on there and set it as my shell.
23:54 < armin> Honestly I love BASH, I will solve whatever problem you throw at me with it (I did solve *mad* problems in just BASH, yup...), but wow it will be DAMN hard to convince others of it...
23:55 < polarian> to be honest, I used zsh when I was using my linux laptop with a shit ton of plugins, since moving to a FreeBSD laptop using bourne shell actually just works and is fast
23:55 < polarian> I am interested in the concept of csh 
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23:55 < AShapiro> i think it depends on just how much of the problem space you're working in is appropriate for the shell. everything i do is systems automation
23:55 < polarian> but I am not that into shells
23:55 < AShapiro> i am forking processes and making decisions based on their output
23:55 < AShapiro> that's what you use a shell for
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23:55 < AShapiro> and being able to have some proper programming language features in that shell means i basically never have to leave it
23:55  * armin forks and makes decisions on AShapiro 
23:55 < AShapiro> 0
23:56 < polarian> armin: as long as you use Bash, you will never escape GNU or the FSF
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23:57 < polarian> its a shame most shell scripts aren't shell agnostic 
23:57 < armin> polarian: While that's theoretically correct, practically I got zero issues to code against whatever interpreter you throw at me, /bin/sh included, but meh...
23:57 < polarian> when people say "heres a shell script" what they mean is "heres a bash script"
23:57 < AShapiro> i don't need to escape GNU or the FSF. i'm a user. both RMS's approach and Theo's approach give me maximal freedom. including to be able to mix and match software from both projects
23:57 < AShapiro> if i was a software developer, the difference in philosophy would be much more critical
23:57 < polarian> AShapiro: unless you ever write a patch for bash and realise you can't licence your own code under what you want, then you are no longer truly free...
23:57 < armin> polarian: Depends, in the BSD context I'd assume an sh script.
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23:58 < AShapiro> and that would absolutely be a concern if i ever found it necessary to write a patch for bash
23:58 < polarian> armin: just in a *nix space
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23:58 < armin> polarian: Linux context would be like [[: command not found I guess.
23:58 < polarian> it is a shame that GNU code is inevitable 
23:58 < polarian> whether you are running Windows, Linux or BSD
23:59 < AShapiro> disagree. it's actually been easier than ever before to run a completely GNU-free system, including with Linux
23:59 < armin> polarian: but meh I'm *very* drunk right now and randomly guessing anyways, be sure that the conversation has no deep mounts.
23:59 < polarian> AShapiro: try a GPL-free system 
23:59 < polarian> good luck
23:59 < polarian> armin: lol... drunk + IRC probably not the greatest idea
23:59 < AShapiro> drunk on irc is a blessed combo
23:59 < armin> polarian: been like this for 30 years, I'm fine, thank you. :) <3
23:59 < AShapiro> been sober ~18 years now but i did much of my best ircing in a stupor
--- Log closed Thu Jul 18 00:00:03 2024