--- Log opened Thu Sep 05 00:00:34 2024
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00:06 < TaelTydes> i'm having a root through the source, i'm quite suprised how approachable this is. seems there's support for a few quectel RM5XXQ modems. I might have to guinea pig.
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00:40 < ssm> learning qemu made me appreciate how simple vmd is
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01:06 < thrig> aggressive intolerance of knobs
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01:08 < TaelTydes> thrig: has someone bothered you?
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01:14 < thrig> openbsd software tends to shy away from features, also known as knobs
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02:04 < mns> ?
02:04 < mns> what's VMD ? 
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02:06 < mns> never mind found it
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13:53 < Bradipo> What do I need to look for in dmesg to know if I can run vmm?
13:53 < Bradipo> I see: vmm0 at mainbus0: VMX/EPT
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14:01 < sibiria> for intel that feels like all you'd need
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14:01 < sibiria> you need the firmware as well, obtainable with fw_update
14:01 -!- brainbomb [~brainbomb@gw-sk2-d6.nrw.de] has quit [Quit: Client closed]
14:02 < sibiria> and, of course, vmd must be enabled through rcctl
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14:10 < Bradipo> So the firmware isn't typically obtained automatically like other firmwares?
14:10 < Bradipo> I see a vmm-bios in /etc/firmware.
14:11 < sibiria> it is, but it's possible to boot with virtualization extensions disabled in the EFI/BIOS making fw_update ignore them
14:12 < Bradipo> Ok, I don't know if that's the case here... I can check the BIOS to see if anything is disabled.
14:13 < Bradipo> My ultimate goal is to run OpenRocket... but when I run it, it fails, and there are no valuable error messages.  Typical of a Java program.
14:13 < Bradipo> So I figure that I can just run it in a Linux VM.  Painful, yes, but welcome to the world of Java.
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14:16 < pardis> Bradipo: not everything in /etc/firmware is obtained via fw_update, only the ones licensed incompatibly with OpenBSD base
14:16 < pardis> but vmm-bios is SeaBIOS, which is GPL, so it is obtained via fw_update
14:16 < pardis> LGPL, rather
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14:20 < Bradipo> Yeah, I was looking at the vmm-bios-license.
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14:40 < labrnth> good morning, just wondering if someone knows if CIDR format is supported for all hostname.if(5) files? I have most of mine using slash notation and they work but when I try to use it for a sec(4) interface it doesn't seem to like it.
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18:55 < TaelTydes> any of you kind souls have any helper scripts for build isolation via chrooting?
18:55 < TaelTydes> I've hacked together a script but I'm sure it's probably not very well done.
18:56 < TaelTydes> anyhow, the idea is to copy the ports tree, switch to a commit & hash, build the deps & prune the tree.
18:58 < TaelTydes> also not sure if there's a better way of detemining where the ports live. is there a pkg_add type command that will build a port & install given a $PORTS env or something?
18:58 -!- jardsonto [~jardsonto@189-48-169-225.user3p.vtal.net.br] has quit [Quit: leaving]
18:58 < TaelTydes> at the moment I'm doing something along the lines of cd    find $CHROOT_PORTS -type d -name "$package"
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18:58 < byteskeptical> TaelTydes: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/ports/guide.html#PortsChecklist point 13 may be of interest
19:00 < vortexx> TaelTydes: also man proot
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19:01 < TaelTydes> byteskeptic: thank you. any commmon reasons for ports to not build? I'm pretty fresh to ports though src builds were one of my decisions to switch to a bsd varient.
19:01 < byteskeptical> TaelTydes: usually if it's in the ports tree it will build, there are rare occasions but should be reported if found
19:02 < TaelTydes> vortexx: thanks. hopefully I will fully recover from my nixos dependence. luckily I've never been much of a fan of pulling in bins from godknowwhatboxhub
19:02 < byteskeptical> the link refers to updating or creating a new port and the basic process to get things submitted
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19:04 < vortexx> proot does the chrooting and everything, I use it to bulk build the packages I use (and sign with my own key)
19:04 < TaelTydes> I've done a fair bit of packaging in the past, though not for obsd yet. this is more just for providing a way stamp my repos with a way to build down the line as an alternative to nix/guix.  
19:05 < TaelTydes> vortexx: it's probably for the best that I packages a few things to to get a feel for the system. I did read an article a while back to get an idea the memory has faded some.
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19:05 < vortexx> (well, dpb does the building, proot sets up the chroot)
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19:07 < vortexx> btw those tools are only available if you have a ports tree as the live in /usr/ports/infrastructure
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19:07 < byteskeptical> TaelTydes: just go through the checklist until it builds and installs successfully, you can reference other ports for certain scenarios or incantations it shouldn't be that bad
19:08 < TaelTydes> dpb! nice. now we're talking. as usual, theres a man page & a solene tldr. thanks irc. 
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19:09 < vortexx> https://dataswamp.org/~solene/2021-05-30-openbsd-dpb.html
19:09 < TaelTydes> I figured there would be tooling built around cvs.  
19:09 < vortexx> good you found it
19:10 < TaelTydes> i hope i'm not diluting the feed too much. it might not be a bad idea to have an openbsd-q&a channel or something. Either way, thanks for the help. much appreciation.
19:11 < vortexx> this channel is for support mainly
19:11 < vortexx> so you're doing the right thing asking about all this
19:12 < TaelTydes> cool, i'll be sure to pay it forward.
19:14 < vortexx> 95% of the time, if you have an itch, someone has had the same and scratched it to a solution that we all get to use
19:15 < fro> unofficial support*
19:16 < TaelTydes> I've been symlinking to /etc but seeing the ports tree as a nixpkgs equivalent rather than an easy way to fork & get tailor'd bins is nice.
19:17 < TaelTydes> I imagine if some of you have been hear some time it could be a bit annoying. a bit of seperation might not be a terrible idea.
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19:23 < Bradipo> If the wizards never intermingle with the apprentices then how does knowledge ever get passed on?
19:24 < vortexx> TaelTydes: chroot has been a bit superseded by pledge & unveil in OpenBSD, but it's still used since the latter aren't user configurable much
19:25 < TaelTydes> this is why i've taken the gamble of switching to c. classes < classes with wizards.
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19:30 < TaelTydes> vortexx: I understand pledge is a privsep context. I see how unveil could give you some guarantees that you aren't using sys dep, is this what you mean?
19:31 < Bradipo> Speaking of unveil, I seem to be having trouble with Firefox as a result.
19:31 < Bradipo> It wants to write things in ~/.config but it doesn't work.
19:32 < Bradipo> Even though it seems to list XDG_CONFIG_HOME in there.
19:32 < Bradipo> I usually just end up disabling unveil/pledge with FF because it doesn't seem to work very well with it enabled.
19:32 < Bradipo> But I thought I would leave it enabled on one system just to see how it fares... not very well I'm afraid.
19:33 < Bradipo> Everytime I start FF it asks me if it wants to be the default browser.   I click "set as default" but it doesn't work.  Setting is not preserved.
19:33 < TaelTydes> i was worried before i switched that the privsep would be impractical. the only thing that gets terminated for me is browsers.
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19:34 < TaelTydes> usually when reluctantly browsing js heavy sites though. i presume they were reaching out of bounds. 
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19:36 < TaelTydes> sure the env should be the same if it's not running under another user. maybe they export something & the path envs don't get re sourced or something
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19:40 < TaelTydes> have you tried hardcoding the value?
19:41 < byteskeptical> I would check the permissions on the directory in the unviel file many times it is a r only so if it doesn't already exist it fails
19:42 < byteskeptical> hardly a reason to disable though 
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19:43 < Bradipo> I guess default /etc/firefox/unvail.* don't work without tweaking.
19:44 < Bradipo> Firefox reports: Can't create user MIME configuration folder /home/user/.local/share/mime/packages: Permission denied
19:44 < byteskeptical> that's not at all true 
19:44 < Bradipo> Also reports: Can't create user MOME configuration folder /home/user/.config: No such file or directory: 'glib warning', ...
19:45 < Bradipo> s/MOME/HOME/
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19:45 < Bradipo> Of course ~/.config exists
19:46 < Bradipo> If it's not true that it doesn't require tweaking, then what, pray tell, must I do so Firefox will stop nagging me about not being the default browser?
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19:47 < byteskeptical> Bradipo: but all the entries are for sub-directories?
19:47 < byteskeptical> in the unviel files
19:47 < Bradipo> Well, whatever is there by default, yes.
19:47 < byteskeptical> unveil*
19:48 < byteskeptical> have you tried creating the sub-directory that is wants or is allowed by default?
19:48 < vortexx> TaelTydes: it's more like unveil makes sure for user apps that your .ssh dir doesn't get read, or no poking by one daemon at another daemon's db, stuff like that. 
19:48 < Bradipo> Well, the first one that it complains about ~/.config, already exists.
19:49 < Bradipo> But, if I have to manually create a directory that Firefox uses, that seems like tweaking to me.
19:50 < Bradipo> ~/.local/share/mime/packages does not actually exist.
19:50 < byteskeptical> well if it does exist and says that then clearly unveil is working and something else is off like an env variable or your running as a less priv user etc...
19:50 < Bradipo> But I imagine that Firefox would create it already if it co uld.
19:50 < TaelTydes> Bradipo: worth a try at least. 
19:50 < TaelTydes> have you chown'd your .config at any point?
19:50 < Bradipo> Of course not.
19:51 < byteskeptical> well I'm not saying Firefox doesn't require tweaking to run to ones liking I mean just graphic hardware wise it can vary
19:51 < Bradipo> This is a pretty vanilla install.  I'm using fvwm and start Firefox from xterm.
19:52 < byteskeptical> but the unveil defaults work fine for the functionality in firefox
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19:52 < Bradipo> So, in unveil.main I see: $XDG_DATA_HOME/mime r
19:52 < Bradipo> I suppose that's the root of the problem...
19:52 < TaelTydes> I can't imagine firefox's stderr is pretty or informative but at a guess I would think permissions or the env not evaluating to what it should.
19:52 < byteskeptical> Bradipo: a permission problem one might say
19:52 < Bradipo> It wants to create ~/.local/share/mime/packages
19:53 < Bradipo> I doubt it's permissions... unless the defaults are all wrong.
19:53 < byteskeptical> well if it is only allowing read to a directory and a sub-directory doesn't exist then it cannot create it
19:54 < TaelTydes> what are the defaults? firefox is huge tbf. shit happens.
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19:54 < Bradipo> Which again confirms my statement that for Firefox to work with the current unveil.main, requires tweaking.
19:54 < Bradipo> Either of unveil or of the filesystem.
19:54 < Bradipo> TaelTydes: There is no .config directory in /etc/skel...
19:55 < byteskeptical> only if you want it to save there you need to configure certain directories like any program for additional configuration but that is a firefox thing
19:55 < Bradipo> So the "defaults" are whatever the first program that happens to try to use ~/.config are (that combined with traditional Unix permissions for /home and umask).
19:56 < byteskeptical> you can make it /etc/firefox if you want
19:56 < Bradipo> I'm not sure what that would accomplish...
19:56 < Bradipo> It seems like what I really need to do is tweak /etc/firefox/unveil.main (or disable it as I normally do). :-)
19:57 < Bradipo> Now, it's entirely possible, and likely, that whoever created the default unveil.main didn't take into consideration all the goofy programs that might want to use ~/.config and ~/.local/share...
19:57 < byteskeptical> you do you I was just refering to the use of $XDG_* env variables to choose where to house your firefox preferences or configs
19:58 < Bradipo> And maybe they had a program that already created those directories *before* they started deciding on what /etc/firefox/unveil.* should contain and didn't realize that if FF is the only thing running that it won't work.
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19:58 < Bradipo> Oh, right, I could use a different environment variable for XDG_...
19:58 < Bradipo> Again, that just confirms my statement that the current /etc/firefox/unveil.* doesn't work quite right out of the box with Firefox. :-)
19:58 < byteskeptical> no my point is it has been that way in firefox since before unveil
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19:59 < Bradipo> Sure it has, but I've never once in my life set XDG_* variables.
19:59 < Bradipo> Never needed to.
19:59 < byteskeptical> that as part of installation some default directories aren't created for you in this case because it may change per user or every user may not use firefox then you want to disable a thing that has nothing to do with it
20:00 < byteskeptical> so yes they thought of the scenario where firefox is the only thing runnig
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20:03 < Bradipo> What I don't understand is how I can be the only one running into this. :-)
20:03 < Bradipo> I imagine most are not as minimalist as I.
20:04 < byteskeptical> Bradipo: I don't think you are bud 
20:04 < byteskeptical> the only one running into this at least
20:05 < Bradipo> So I disabled unveil, ran firefox, and it created a whole bunch of directories in ~/.local that weren't there before (probably because unveil prevented it).
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20:06 < Bradipo> So does /etc/firefox just need an update?
20:06 < Bradipo> Or is firefox doing it wrong?  Or am I doing it wrong?
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20:08 < Bradipo> I replaced the disabled files in /etc/firefox with default shipping files and restarted firefox and now it no longer complains.
20:11 < Bradipo> By disabling unveil, Firefox started up and created 14 directories in ~/.local/share/mime and 22 files nestle in those directories somewhere.
20:11 < Bradipo> None of which was enabled by shipping unveil configuration.
20:11 < Bradipo> I should say rather that they were not permitted by shipping unveil configuration.
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20:13 < Bradipo> As TaelTydes points out, FF is huge, and a mess.  I'm not sure why it needs all these files in ~/.local/share/mime. lol.
20:13 < TaelTydes> nice. try veiling em & see if it's happy. could have been overlooked or src has drifted with unveil over time. 
20:14 < TaelTydes> I know mime types are shared but thats not a standard is it. they should keep in their own lane though.
20:14 < Bradipo> Well, it doesn't look like FF specific directories to me...
20:14 < Bradipo> ~/.local/share/mime/* have no FF specific naming that I can tell.
20:15 < Bradipo> What I don't understand is why when I have: $XDG_DATA_HOME/mime rwc
20:15 < Bradipo> That FF cannot get it's business done.
20:18 < TaelTydes> i was talking rubbish, its xdg standard.
20:20 < Bradipo> Well, XDG is rubbish, so you're not far off. ;-)
20:21 < Bradipo> At any rate, I see there are two unveil definitions for ~/.local/share/mime ... one in unveil.content and one in unveil.main
20:21 < Bradipo> I wonder what the difference is.
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20:24 < Bradipo> A gander at /usr/local/share/doc/pkg-readmes/firefox mentions manually creating ~/Downloads and also manually registering MIME handlers.  I guess manually creating the dozens of files and directories that Firefox wants in ~/.local/share/mime is in order...
20:24 -!- Aedil [~adrian@ip923468ee.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20:25 < Bradipo> Otherwise perhaps one risks going against the statement that "By default, only ~/Downloads and /tmp can be written to when downloading files..."
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20:28 < Bradipo> Can /etc/firefox/unveil.main contain wildcards?
20:29 < Bradipo> I see that FF wants to edit ~/.config/mimeapps.list and unveil only allows r on that file... but FF is also trying to first create a temporary file ~/.config/mimeapps.lst.OKCDT2 but that fails.
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20:31 < Bradipo> Or, should I create ~/.config/mimeapps.list by hand?
20:31 < setient> create it by hand
20:31 < Bradipo> And what contents do I put in it?
20:31 < setient> or give ff the perms it needs to do what it needs
20:32 < Bradipo> Well, the current unveil.main seems to suggest that the file should already exist because it only gives r permission.
20:32 < Bradipo> But if it's supposed to already exist, what should create it?
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20:35 < byteskeptical> Bradipo: how do come to that conclusion from a permission. Unveil is trying prevent to unwanted file system access so requires explict creation of additional configuration locations/files but many of these things are not firefox specific which is why there is the restriction on permissions in the first place
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20:37 < Bradipo> I understand that.  But in this case, the file ~/.config/mimeapps.list doesn't exist by default.  What should be it's contents if FF isn't supposed to write it?
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20:37 < Bradipo> FF wants to put it's own MIME definitions in that file...
20:38 < byteskeptical> depends what you want to set as defaults for specific mime type mapping. Well it well save your configuration but may start with a default template
20:38 < Bradipo> I think it dumps some default values in there.
20:40 < Bradipo> Though, if there were some xdg-mime command that would update it to make FF happy, that too would be fine.
20:40 < Bradipo> But one must then learn the arcane ways of xdg-mime, just to make it so FF stops complaining that it's not he default browser.
20:40 < Bradipo> Or maybe to make it the default.
20:42 < Bradipo> So take application/pdf as an example.  I ran "xdg-mime query default application/pdf" and it returned "gimp.desktop"
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20:42 < Bradipo> WTH is .desktop?  And why is gimp the default handler for PDF? lol.
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20:43 < byteskeptical> it not necessary for firefox to run though, it will keep working with or without an additional mime types mapping
20:43 < Bradipo> Sure, this is true.
20:43 < vortexx> .desktop *might* be the desktop icon
20:43 < byteskeptical> right because no one not even mozilla knows what applications you have installed or want to use unless you configure that
20:43 < Bradipo> I'm just trying to get the bare minimum requirement to have it be registered as the default browser.
20:44 < Bradipo> Not that I suppose it matters really because I'm using fvwm anyway and there is no "desktop".
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20:46 < Bradipo> Haha, well, I guess I'll just tell Firefox to not show the warning again and click "Not now".  Who needs it to be registered as the default browser anyway.
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20:47 < Bradipo> To reproduce, install OpenBSD.  Install FF.  Configure ~/.xsession to run fvwm.  Login to X.  Start FF.
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20:57 < TaelTydes> that's a shame, seems you were hot on the trail.
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20:59 < TaelTydes> maybe mime's are not permitted by default as they essentially specify what to use when fork & exec'ing, which allowing kind of means allowing anything.
21:00 < TaelTydes> i guess if programs explicitly fork & exec something that itself is pledge'd & unveiled then permissions can expand & expand & contract to some degree, maybe just contract idk. 
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21:01 < Bradipo> Well, I could get it to work with unveil if wildcards were supported.
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21:01 < TaelTydes> if you want to test tho I guess be permissive & then constrict till you whack the mole
21:01 < Bradipo> I gave FF rwc on $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/mimeapps.list but then it also needed to create temporary files named $XDG_CONFIG_HOME/mimeapps.list.XYX123
21:02 < TaelTydes> can you have logic in the unveil def's or do any micro type shit to generate what you need?
21:02 < Bradipo> The alternative is to figure out how to preconfigure ~/.config/mimeapps.list so that FF doesn't think it needs to poke into it.
21:02 < Bradipo> And then maybe stuff that in /etc/skel/.config/mimeapps.list
21:04 < TaelTydes> *macro not micro. I've not actually these configs you are talking about only looked at code that makes use of the privsep & had a glance at the impl.
21:05 < TaelTydes> ah, you are saying that what firefox requires can't be known in advance seeing as it's dynamic behavior so you're trying to glob the unveil?
21:05 < Bradipo> Right.
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21:05 < Bradipo> I suppose there's always the alternative of: $XDG_CONFIG_HOME rwc
21:05 < Bradipo> Just give FF full ability in $XDG_CONFIG_HOME
21:06 < TaelTydes> & permitting the parent dir is too permissive or just doesn't work?
21:06 < Bradipo> It's too permissive I suppose.
21:06 < Bradipo> Because the "parent" is the entire ~/.config directory
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21:06 < TaelTydes> right. i'd rather err on the side of caution by default but sounds like it needs solving.
21:06 < Bradipo> But the current unveil.main lists very specific files/directories in ~/.config as permitted, not ~/.config proper.
21:08 < TaelTydes> have you dared to take a look a the firefox src yet? i used to know a little c++ & a little haskell, & now know a little c. rust is something that would have appeals to me a lot last year, but now seems like someone squashed haskell & c++ together.
21:10 < Bradipo> I have not yet looked at FF src.
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21:10 < TaelTydes> is firefox patched with unveil or has it been merged upstream? or is it just pledge that's in the src, idk.
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21:11 < TaelTydes> i don't think I've implemented enough unsafe traits to qualify for looking at a codebase that involved.
21:12 < Bradipo> Good question.  It would be nice if upstream had the necessary code for pledge/unveil, but I'm not sure.
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21:13 < TaelTydes> i've not seen unveil implemented but chawan implements all 3. pledge is maybe a one liner capcicum maybe 3, & libseccomp about 200 last time I counted.
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21:23 < TaelTydes> must be merged upstream it's not patched in. 
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21:32 < TaelTydes> i've tried cloning firefox to take a peek but I've ran out of drive space. i really should delete my old partitions.
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21:32 < Bradipo> Haha, yeah, it's quite large.
21:35 < TaelTydes> in this instance of people not caring about being cross platform could actually be useful. 
21:39 < TaelTydes> i wish we could just mount /dontyoudare/alltheforges. scraping & aggregating or federation isn't ideal.
21:40 < Bradipo> Not sure what that would enable.
21:41 < TaelTydes> cd /dontyoudare/alltheforges/github/somerepo & somefuzzyfind shit -> vi. only in my dreams.
21:42 < TaelTydes> there's probably very practical reasons why this isn't a thing, but it's a shame either way.
21:44 < TaelTydes> i mean, if you just tried to fuzz on the root you would be taxing a bunch of servers, but the gateway could always restrict that. idk.
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21:46 < TaelTydes> you mount the 9front kernel that way & shithub but there's about 20 repo's on shithub so I can't say I know if it scales.
21:46 < Bradipo> I'm not convinced that exposing every living thing as a networked filesystem is a good idea. :-)
21:47 < Bradipo> clone/sync are likely much easier to deal with.
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21:48 < TaelTydes> I'm not sure how you could make it secure either way either. they would have to be read only copies (symlinks?) idk. 
21:48 < Bradipo> I'm sure it could be made secure.  FreeS/WAN was (is?) a thing.
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21:49 < TaelTydes> I mean that's how the internet itself works in a sense right? 
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21:50 < TaelTydes> google keeps the indexes & tells you where to go. you don't have to clone a website before you can browse. not quite the same but maybe some parallels there.
21:50 < Bradipo> https://curvecp.org/ maybe?
21:51 < TaelTydes> i've never heard of that. supposed to be building a printer rn but I'll get these terms bookmarked.
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21:52 < TaelTydes> well that's it, there's things in place to ensure I can't drop facebooks tables. there could be network limitations but the load would be on the destination servers.
21:53 < TaelTydes> google's not performing the db queries when I look for old msg's or we. anyway I'm talking shite. it's something I think about too often.
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21:57 < TaelTydes> so long as the mounts can't get any further & the connections can't interact. it'd be nice though. 
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