--- Log opened Tue Sep 10 00:00:01 2024
--- Day changed Tue Sep 10 2024
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01:53 < systemdsucks> seems like someone pinged me here but I only have 1000 lines of history
01:53 < systemdsucks> certainly not enough for 3 days without internet
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04:11 < pabs3> systemdsucks: on the 8th <vortexx> systemdsucks: any updates on the MacBook boot issue?
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04:35 < systemdsucks> lulz
04:35 < systemdsucks> thanks pabs3 
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04:36 < systemdsucks> vortexx: I'll update you tomorrow with that, thanks for your concern
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06:45 < ramrunner> vortexx: sorry i typed wrong. it was actually the msata ssd that seems to fail . i ordered a new one... 
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13:03 < vortexx> systemdsucks: all good!
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13:04 < vortexx> ramrunner: oh ok, that'd explain it
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14:59 < itrsea> How do I use either libc++ or libstdc++ with egcc?
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15:07 < itrsea> I use eg++ and not egcc.
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17:31 < ramrunner> vortexx: i actually had daily large writes on it, cause i was updating huge blocklists for unbound, writing them and reloading the conf, so once the new disk arrives i will try to do that on mfs.
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19:16 < vortexx> ramrunner: yeah that wouldn't help too much... mfs is quite useful on the APUs as they have enough ram
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19:52 < f451> hi. if you wanted to run multiple openbsd guest vms, and say you want each of them to have for example vcpu=4, what server host/os would you choose?
19:52 < f451> and what hypervisor?
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19:55 < sibiria> linux, qemu/kvm
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19:56 < f451> would KARL still work?
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19:58 < f451> eg on freebsd if grub2-bhyve is used on the host, KARL won't work, i forget the reason but it was explained to me why a couple years back. But for at least a year, freebsd can host openbsd more directly, and KARL works in that case
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19:59 < f451> sibiria: which distro?
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20:01 < brynet> f451: That is because it's bypassing OpenBSD's bootloader, use the bhyve uefi firmware instead.
20:01 < Bradipo> Is bhyve short for beehive?
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20:02 < brynet> bhyve, short for buggy hypervisor
20:02 < Bradipo> Haha.
20:02  * brynet waddles away
20:02 < f451> Bradipo: i dunno. https://bhyve.org/
20:02 < f451> LOL
20:03 < Bradipo> Yep, I was at least on the right path about it being "behive".
20:03 < vortexx> f451: bhyve with uefi, no need for grub2-bhyve
20:04 < pardis> apparently bhyvecon is so keen on NetBSD Xen, it's doubly dedicated to it
20:05 < f451> brynet: yeah thats what i do on dreebsd. but if one uses linux and qemu/kvm is the bootloader still bypassed? ive never used kvm or xen
20:05 < sibiria> f451: i guess any but ubuntu. debian should be great
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20:05 < vortexx> f451: qemu/kvm gives you either bios or uefi, so karl will work
20:05 < pardis> bypassing the bootloader is the exception rather than the rule
20:05 < brynet> f451: not unless you go out of your way to use grub..
20:05 < pardis> almost all virtualisation will just invoke the bootloader by default
20:05 < f451> ok
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20:07 < sibiria> proxmox is a good choice as well if you want some "management" tools
20:07 < f451> ok thats great, thanks for the info
20:07 < pardis> I would probably choose Linux with qemu/kvm too just for familiarity
20:07 < pardis> although I would steer clear of the management tools and implement privsep myself using -chroot and -user
20:07 < f451> proxmox eh, never considered it. ive always run my vms directly in a screen, lol
20:08 < sibiria> proxmox is great
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20:08 < pardis> by default libvirt on Linux will run all your VMs as root with full admin capabilities
20:08 < pardis> one qemu escape bug with an untrusted VM and your host is toast
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20:09 < pardis> (unlike OpenBSD's vmd, but that's ruled out if you want more than one vcpu)
20:12 < f451> i wonder how professional openbsd hosts do it
20:12 < pardis> I usually run qemu myself from an init script with -chroot (filesystem isolation), -user (drop privileges) and -nodefaults (remove the default set of devices and specify only the ones you want, reducing the risk of encountering such a bug)
20:12 < pardis> there is a -sandbox option but it's totally useless because Red Hat made it
20:12  * f451 takes notes
20:12 < sibiria> openbsd.ams hosts on openbsd as well. they document their setup pretty well, too
20:13 < f451> so all their guests have just 1 cpu?
20:13 < pardis> yes
20:13 < sibiria> and performance on the whole isn't the same bang-per-buck as if linux was the host. but they have a solid and reputable system all the same
20:14 < pardis> multiple vcpus is difficult to get right under load anyway and I've seen it go bad with qemu on Linux
20:14 < pardis> the problem is that the guest's scheduler is unaware of the host's resources, so you end up with the guest and host fighting each other to move processes to less-loaded cores
20:14 < pardis> which is probably why OpenBSD hasn't tried to solve the problem
20:15 < sibiria> qemu lets you pin a vm's vcores to a specific set of actual cores, to avoid such problems
20:15 < f451> i wonder how something as intensive as a nextcloud would gare on a single core vm
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20:15 < pardis> yes, but that solves about 5% of the problem
20:15 < f451> s/gare/fare/g
20:15 < pardis> the other 95% is you having to go and work out a pinning scheme that actually makes good use of resources
20:16 < sibiria> i.e. you can tell qemu to line things up neatly and leave, say, 2 cores free just to have functional management still under full load
20:16 < sibiria> 95%... i wouldn't go that far when it comes to taking pre-sized slices out of a cake
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20:17 < sibiria> it's a tiny algorithmic problem if one wants it automated, and a non-problem if one wants to allocate it manually
20:17  * f451 takes more notes
20:18 < sibiria> anyway - qemu provides you with this kind of resource management, and it's valuable if you want to take a, uh, "production" approach to using the resources
20:18 < f451> yeah, ultimately that
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20:20 < Bradipo> f451: Just make sure you don't burn your notes later.
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20:21 < sibiria> i got that reference
20:21  * sibiria pats own shoulder
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20:23 < f451> hah i got it saved
20:23 < f451> TYVM
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20:25 < highplainsdruid> i second debian as a host os
20:25 < highplainsdruid> i use debian for everything linux
20:25 < highplainsdruid> i have my gripes but it's overall the most reliable in my experience
20:25 < f451> will it allow pci pass-through?
20:26 < highplainsdruid> i haven't experimented with that yet
20:27 < f451> might be able to use openbsd as the firewall for the host even though openbsd is the guest
20:27 < vortexx> (there is a #kvm channel and a #debian channel for these kinds of question...)
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20:27 < highplainsdruid> i have heard of people virtualizing an openbsd firewall
20:27 < highplainsdruid> i have separate hardware for the task but it's maybe not the worst idea ever?
20:28 < f451> might save on the leccy bill ;)
20:29 < vortexx> there are people out there who claim they can do their firewalling with just one ethernet port and vlans, but  I remain sceptical of the issues involved
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20:32 < highplainsdruid> now that i would never attempt
20:32 < f451> single point of failure
20:33 < vortexx> yep
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20:39 < sibiria> network-wise that works fine
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20:39 < sibiria> it's one of the things vlans were made for
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20:46 < sibiria> also very common to virtualize management nets and firewalls (e.g. pfSense) for setups in AWS and such
20:49 < sibiria> (i do this at work)
20:49 < highplainsdruid> what host os do you use there?  performance is evidently acceptable?  what kind of hardware is required for said acceptable performance?
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20:50 < sibiria> pfsense is freebsd. not really sure what exact CPU model the hosts are running. it's their basic AMD EPYC selection, though. shared tenancy but in a "nitro" enclave
20:51 < sibiria> performance is not a problem
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20:53 < highplainsdruid> neat, thanks
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20:55 < sibiria> a lot of not great things can be said about aws, but they do not over-commit "compute" tenancies
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21:01 < ssm> How do ssh key passwords work? setting a password doesn't seem to change anything in the public or private key
21:02 < sibiria> it's the private key itself that's protected. you need to provide the password to open the key up and use it
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21:03 < ssm> Private key looks the same though. starts with -----BEGIN OPENSSH PRIVATE KEY----- followed by the key, doesn't appear to be encrypted or anything
21:04 < sibiria> that's the correct header
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21:06 < Bradipo> It depends on the kind of key.
21:07 < Bradipo> If it's the "new" OpenSSH format, then that's what it looks like.
21:07 < sibiria> openssh doesn't write the same usual things in there openssl does
21:09 < Bradipo> http://man.openbsd.org/ssh-keygen#m for details.
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--- Log closed Wed Sep 11 00:00:42 2024