--- Log opened Wed Sep 25 00:00:27 2024
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00:17 < vortexx> one of these days (sooner rather than later) we're going to need a Turing police, just as Neuromancer showed...
00:18 < thrig> they've been turing for a while now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSGKJd4f7o
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00:22 < vortexx> tsss not related :P
00:23 < vortexx> even if that's going on my yt music playlist
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00:37 < remiliascarlet> jb1277976: OpenBSD is polar opposite of most operating systems. FreeBSD, Linux, Windows, macOS, Haiku, Illumos, Minix. Though still somewhat similar to NetBSD.
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00:40 < phy1729> It's still a monolithic kernel and largely POSIX
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00:41 < smol-hors> why are openbsd and haiku opposites?
00:41 < remiliascarlet> Minix and Darwin (macOS) aren't monolithic.
00:42 < vortexx> maybe not v3 of Minix
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00:42 < vortexx> found in all your Intel ME hw
00:42 < remiliascarlet> smol-hors: Haiku is much more GUI-centric and purely single user, whereas OpenBSD is more CLI-centric (with options to run a GUI of course) and uses separate users for security reasons.
00:43 < vortexx> haiku also does object oriented a lot
00:43 < smol-hors> ok
00:43 < vortexx> and the BFS was great at dealing with different types of media
00:44 < vortexx> 25ish years ago, I used to multiboot a lot, including to BeOS 5
00:45 < vortexx> an elegant OS, but Be Inc died nearly as soon as NeXT got bought by Apple
00:45 < vortexx> haven't bothered with Haiku
00:45 < remiliascarlet> Whenever I want to use multiple OS's, I just buy multiple used laptops (often those declared "junk", since they're way cheaper), because I just don't like multibooting.
00:45 < seninha> I like beos/haiku approach to window management.
00:46 < seninha> It got an application-grouped taskbar years before it got popularised by Windows 7.
00:46 < vortexx> remiliascarlet: this was pre cheap throwaway hw
00:48 < seninha> (NeXT/macos dock kinda groups windows by application, but is more noisy and filled with non-window stuff)
00:51 < remiliascarlet> I actually never liked the whole grouping stuff. It might look cleaner, but it often takes longer since you need to do extra steps to open the window you want.
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00:52 < vortexx> Win11 hears you
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00:54 < vortexx> NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP never had groups or anything like that, it was still just a line of icons. AfterStep 1.0 did the tiled groups thing
00:54 < vortexx> but it did do the "click on the various windows this app opened and get them all raised"
00:55 < vortexx> AfterStep 0.9 > AfterStep 1.0 :P
00:57 < remiliascarlet> Perhaps the reason why tabs exist is to get around the wasted time of grouped icons?
00:58 < Bradipo> Is "grouped icons" the behavior where 5 xterms are under a single icon and you have to flip through them to find the one you want?
00:58 < remiliascarlet> Yes.
00:58 < Bradipo> Yeah, that's annoying behavior.
00:59 < Bradipo> Lately I just prefer to use fvwm(1) that's in base.
01:02 < vortexx> windowmaker forever! but I use GNOME
01:02 < Bradipo> I used WindowMaker for a while, but got bored with it.
01:02 < vortexx> 25 years ago it was great
01:02 < Bradipo> GNOME is too *heavy* for my likes.
01:02 < vortexx> so many applets
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01:03 < vortexx> GNOME needs ram, more than anything, and that I have so it's ok
01:04 < vortexx> and I like Ubuntu's dock, which is NeXTish even if it's on the wrong side
01:04 < seninha> Bradipo, that's actually good for specific applications. But xterm (and emacs) is a catchall thing, it's not like have a text editor and a mail user agent as different applications.
01:04 < seninha> One could set different X11 class/names for each xterm window tho.
01:04 < vortexx> if you're on emacs do you have any other applications? :P
01:04 < Bradipo> I haven't found it good for much.  If I have a window, I want it treated as a different icon.
01:04  * vortexx never been an emacs person
01:05 < Bradipo> Too much hassle to setup a different class/name for each xterm.
01:05 < Bradipo> Easier to just use fvwm(1). :-)
01:06 < seninha> Haiku/beos lists each window differently on the taskbar, they are just grouped. It's not like Windows 7 (and after) with a single icon for all windows from the same app.
01:06 < seninha> (you can collapse all app windows into a single button tho, but that's not the default)
01:07 < seninha> On an unrelated note, Don Knuth uses FVWM.
01:07 < seninha> s/un//
01:07 < Bradipo> Interesting.
01:07 < seninha> He at his puter running FVWM: https://www.quantamagazine.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/DK_VC_2K_01.jpg
01:07 < Bradipo> I'm surprised he uses *nix.
01:07 < seninha> His puter screenshot: https://cs.stanford.edu/~knuth/screen.jpeg
01:08 < seninha> His .fvwmrc: https://cs.stanford.edu/~knuth/programs/.fvwm2rc
01:08 < vortexx> Bradipo: he wrote TeX, we're all still using that in some manor or other, why wouldn't he be on *nix ?
01:08 < Bradipo> Good point.
01:09 < vortexx> nice NeXT style clock in that screenshot
01:09 < thrig> and xeyes
01:10 < Bradipo> Yeah, I just "swallow" wmitime.
01:10 < vortexx> finally someone found a use for xeyes
01:10 < seninha> thrig, xeyes?
01:10 < Bradipo> Might be useful in helping someone find their mouse pointer if they've lost it.
01:10 < Bradipo> First screenshot has xeyes.
01:10 < seninha> Oh, the photo!
01:10 < Bradipo> I noticed that too.
01:10 < Bradipo> Yeah, the photo.
01:11 < seninha> i didnt spotted that
01:11 < seninha> damn, nice perception!
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01:13 < vortexx> TeX and associates are still some of the longer to compile packages in the ports tree, at least for me
01:13 < Bradipo> There's also a miniature scene behind his back... almost could be a diorama of an office or something.
01:14 < Bradipo> Or a picture of an old looking computing office.
01:15 < seninha> omg i thought it were a dust mobo on an open PC case...
01:16 < vortexx> maybe a picture, or a very elaborate dioroma
01:16 < seninha> some old mobo
01:16  * seninha needs new glasses
01:17 < Bradipo> It's clearly not a motherboard.  You can easily see a mini CRT, keyboard, and printer on the mini desk.  Interesting spiral staircase to the right too.
01:17 < Bradipo> Or some kind of staircase to get up to the book shelves maybe.
01:18 < vortexx> there's some kind of ricer lighting under the desk though
01:18 < seninha> I realised that after you pointed it out.
01:18 < vortexx> certainly a lot computer doc binders and books
01:19 < seninha> cool office
01:19 < vortexx> wonder who all those people in the photographs are, fathers of computing in the 19th century style?
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01:20 < seninha> He once said he does not have Internet connection on his computer, for focus and discipline.
01:20 < vortexx> even a mother, Ada Lovelace maybe?
01:20 < Bradipo> If I had to guess... family relations (or ancestors) of some kind.  I bet he's into genealogy.
01:20 < Bradipo> One of his exercises in The TeXbook was to use TeX to create a pedigree chart.  (Circumstantial I know).
01:21 < Bradipo> seninha: Yes, he also abandoned email years ago.
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01:22 < seninha> vortexx, maybe uni's list of presidents/rectors
01:22 < Bradipo> "I have been a happy man ever since January 1, 1990, when I no longer had an email address." from: https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/email.html
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01:25 < vortexx> I can understand that
01:25 < vortexx> seninha: maybe
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01:27 < vortexx> seninha: 
01:27 < vortexx> oops
01:27 < vortexx> sorry
01:27 < seninha> np :)
01:31 < vortexx> cheers
01:50 < remiliascarlet> Bradipo: I use CWM, which is also in base.
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01:51 < remiliascarlet> seninha: Apps only exist on smartphones.
01:52 < remiliascarlet> On actual computers we have programs, drivers, games, firmware, operating systems, libraries, config files, packages, and so on.
01:52 < quinq> *pocket-computers
01:53 < remiliascarlet> Smartphone users call all of these just "apps", because they got brainwashed by Steve Jobs.
01:53 < quinq> *pocket-computers
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01:55  * vortexx sees quinq is cosplaying and John Connor in Terminator 2
01:55 < vortexx> s/and/as
01:56  * quinq looks at his Atari Portfolio on his shelf
02:00 < seninha> remiliascarlet, https://0x0.st/XYJg.jpg
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02:01 < Bradipo> Hahaha.
02:01 < remiliascarlet> seninha: It's so sad that Steve Jobs died of sagma.
02:03 < Bradipo> He was definitely taken before his time.
02:05 < vortexx> quinq: how much software do you have for that?
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02:26 < pardis> the worst one is when SaaS "apps" call their integrations with other SaaS "apps" "apps"
02:27 < Bradipo> Isn't that what A2A means?  "apps" to "apps"?
02:27 < thrig> App Appsonn
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02:45 < seninha> AaaA
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04:29 < ForeverNoob[m]> Hi, is http://cdn.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD having issues by any chance? Some of the updates on -current seem to exit with errors while some do not.
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04:30 < phy1729> the CDN is just a cache so isn't necessarily coherent. Try again in a few hours.
04:32 < pardis> or use a different mirror
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04:42 < ForeverNoob[m]> Will probably do the latter since these errors started appearing the last couple of days.
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05:28 < aaabbb> does openbsd still use blowfish for swap encryption?
05:34 < lts> Looks like AES https://github.com/openbsd/src/blob/master/sys/uvm/uvm_swap_encrypt.c
05:36 < aaabbb> thanks
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05:41 < mischief> i've used planetunix quite a lot since i started using openbsd, they've been pretty reliable as an openbsd mirror
05:42 < mischief> that and the berkeley.edu and sonic.net mirror, since they're very close to me
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05:49 < echelon> quick question, is adding the same entry more than once in a pf table valid? does pf reject it?
05:49 < echelon> or is it handled by pfctl
05:52 < dlg> dlg@bgp-backend ~$ sudo pfctl -t foo -T add 192.168.1.1        
05:52 < dlg> 1 table created.
05:52 < dlg> 1/1 addresses added.
05:52 < dlg> dlg@bgp-backend ~$ sudo pfctl -t foo -T add 192.168.1.1 
05:52 < dlg> 0/1 addresses added.
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06:07 < echelon> dlg: thanks!
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07:39 < ForeverNoob[m]> What are some of the most stable mirrors?
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10:25 < rnkn> I have a file /etc/soii.key and I can't remember if I created it
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10:25 < rnkn> pkg_info -E /etc/soii.key returns nothing (1)
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10:32 < rnkn> okay /etc/soii.key does not show up in sysclean, so I'm guessing it's part of the system
10:32 < metavoid> rnkn: its shipped with the OS and is related to ipv6
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10:33 < metavoid> https://man.openbsd.org/sysctl.2#ip6.soii
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10:34 < metavoid> https://github.com/openbsd/src/blob/208893442c38e0767db1293632337acc2532616c/etc/netstart#L367
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10:35 < rnkn> metavoid: awesome, I shall not delete it then
10:35 < rnkn> ty
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14:44 < finkfox> hi anyone using a oneplus 6 smartphone? can you conntect it to openbsd and transfer files? all I see in /var/log/messages is something like this: /bsd: ugen0 at uhub0 port 2 "OnePlus OnePlus 6" rev 2.10/4.09 addr 3
14:44 < finkfox> this is lineageos 21, with file-transfer mode activated.
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14:57 < pkubaj> finkfox: all the new android phones use mtp
14:59 < Bradipo> Yeah, why can't they just do something intelligent like umass.  mtp is sloppy.
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15:09 < mischief> Bradipo: IIRC, there's synchronization issues between the device and host when the device presents itself as 'just a bunch of blocks' but is actually a file system.
15:09 < Bradipo> Fair enough.  Use SFTP. :-)
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15:16 < oldlaptop> MTP *is* the intelligent option, at least in a sense.
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15:17 < Bradipo> That may be, I just know that my experience with it, like exFAT has been not so great on OpenBSD.
15:17 < oldlaptop> (I'd certainly rather use something like SFTP than try to mess with it)
15:18 < Bradipo> I'm accustomed to being able to assign DUID to filesystems so that I can enable other users to mount *their* devices.
15:18 < Bradipo> But this isn't possible with exFAT and the FUSE implementation.
15:18 < oldlaptop> Should try KDE Connect, maybe, now that plasma is mostly working
15:20 < Bradipo> Well, I can easily setup doas to allow anyone to use mount.exfat, but I cannot restrict it to specific devices per user like I can with other disks where I can put a disklabel with a DUID on it.
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15:22  * oldlaptop has no warm feelings for exfat
15:23 < Bradipo> Well, I wonder... is it possible to treat an exfat FS just like any other and avoid FUSE?
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15:25 < Bradipo> Would it require kernel modification?  e.g. how does mount_msdos work?
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15:34 < vortexx> Bradipo: iirc if you have a microSD card in your phone you could format that as ext2 and I think the phone is fine reading and writing to it, and then you can just use mount_ext2fs in OpenBSD
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15:35 < Bradipo> I have a camera that uses exFAT formatted SD (not microSD) cards and I actually tried formatting it with msdos and it wouldn't recognize it.
15:35 < Bradipo> But the suggestion to use ext2fs might work for phones... I'll have to experiment with that, thanks.
15:36 < vortexx> yw
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15:37 < ibs> Struggling to find resources to enable play/pause, next and previous buttons in X. Any tips?
15:37 < vortexx> https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20240925110946
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15:37 < vortexx> sysupgrade to be simplified by removing -r
15:37 < Bradipo> ibs: Usually they just work if they're going to work at all.
15:37 < Bradipo> Do they show up with xev?
15:38 < ibs> Nope.
15:38 < Bradipo> Well, if they don't even show up in xev, then I'm not sure there's any hope
15:39 < Bradipo> I'm no expert when it comes to keyboards, keys, and xev though, so I could be wrong.
15:39 < ibs> Or yes. Something happens when I press them. 
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15:40 < Bradipo> They work fine on my Dell laptop.
15:40 < Bradipo> But the buttons on my Ducky keyboard, even though they show up in xev, don't change the volume at all.
15:41 < ibs> I see. Well. Volume is working for me. How can I bind the keycode I get? And what command should I bind them to?
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15:42 < Bradipo> xmodmap maybe?
15:46 < ibs> Maybe. I'll check.
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16:21 < SuitCase> I'm a newbie setting up OpenBSD on a VPS to serve my websites via nginx. During setup, I went with defaults, and did not notice that so little of the SSD space was allocated towards /var/ - it's not enough for my website's files.
16:21 < SuitCase> I have learned that partition size can't really be changed without a reinstall, which I really don't want to do. It seems OpenBSD nginx will always be chrooted to the www user's home dir, which is /var/www, so I can't get it to read website files on anything other than the small /var/ partition.Is changing www's home dir to /home/www/ the best solution available to me, short of a reinstall? (How inelegant and brittle a
16:21 < SuitCase>  solution is it? Any other suggestions?)
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16:22 < lucas> I find it weird that nginx doesn't let you choose the chroot directory
16:22 < lucas> one alternatively could be using httpd instead, which does allow you :D
16:23 < SuitCase> Having to port all my .conf files is a solution that would make me scream even more than having to reinstall :(
16:25 < SuitCase> I may be wrong that you can’t change the nginx chroot to an arbitrary directory. But I believe I saw somewhere that the OpenBSD variant is hard-coded to chroot to the www home dir. If there’s a way to change it (without, uh, recompiling it or something way beyond my comfort level) then I’d gladly do that
16:26 < miah> usually openbsd installs everything to the same partition, so are you doing a custom partition layout to make /var so small?
16:26 < lucas> miah: no, usually OpenBSD spreads things all over the place
16:26 < miah> does it?
16:27 < miah> ah ya i see. i misremembered then i guess lol
16:27 < miah> my var is 1.9gb; more than enough for my website so i never noticed i guess
16:28 < lucas> even in a 8GB SD card I ended up with 2 partitions
16:29 < lucas> SuitCase: following OpenBSD's tradition, read the fabulous manual
16:29 < lucas> the answer is there
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16:35 < vortexx> SuitCase: you could swap partitions around: umount the largest one and /var, edit /etc/fstab to reassign them, then format them and mount, and unpack the base75.tgz set over them again. You shouldn't be afraid of reinstalling though, it's pretty quick to do so long as you've backed up /etc and /var/log
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16:37 < vortexx> (this is probably best done in single user mode, remember to export TERM=vt100 so vi works)
16:38 < SuitCase> vortexx: that’s a remarkable idea! thank you, i didn’t consider it. swapping /home and /var would solve my issue. i can try it.
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16:49 < eea> extra points for /var/backup!
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17:12 < Bradipo> I've never bothered with nginx and just use httpd(8).
17:12 < Bradipo> Works well enough for what I do with it.
17:14 < miah> i appreciate the simplicity of httpd and its extensive documentation.
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17:24 < ibs> Bradipo: Solved by installing playerctl and adding https://clbin.com/mTYlv to i3/config.
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17:32 < Oddmonger> that's funny, in openbsd the full documentation is in the faq section
17:34 < miah> ... and man pages
17:34 < Bradipo> ibs: Excellent.
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17:37 < Oddmonger> han no color output with `ls`, tough
17:39 < Oddmonger> back to `ls -F`, like in the old times :')
17:40 < seninha> Oddmonger, you can install colorls
17:42 < pardis> or coreutils
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17:46 < Bradipo> I actually prefer "ls -F" over colorized output.
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17:54 < Oddmonger> coreutils are the gnu port of common shell tools ?
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17:55 < Oddmonger> yes ls -F is nice after all
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18:03 < quinq> gnu implementation
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18:13 < avemestr> ibs: If you also want volume control and mute: 
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18:14 < avemestr> bindsym XF86AudioRaiseVolume exec --no-startup-id sndioctl output.level=+.05
18:14 < avemestr> bindsym XF86AudioLowerVolume exec --no-startup-id sndioctl output.level=-.05
18:14 < avemestr> bindsym XF86AudioMute exec --no-startup-id sndioctl output.mute=!
18:15 < avemestr> In your i3 config.
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18:31 < ibs> avemestr: The raise and lower just worked.. but mute is a good one. Gonna try that. Thanks.
18:32 < Bradipo> Is there a file viewer that will list metadata details of mp3s in a directory?
18:32 < Bradipo> I know EasyTag scan manage tags, but it doesn't have a "folder" view that allows you to drag files around.
18:32 < Bradipo> I had hoped that thunar (used with xfce4) might have an option to enable metadata/ID3 display, but didn't find it.
18:34 < Bradipo> Hmm, reading through this seems to suggest there may be a way... https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=222920
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18:46 < Bradipo> Boo on thunar for not just allowing me to add a column to display ID3 info.
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19:02 < ym> Sup. Am I understand it correct that to distribute IPv6 addresses my ISP provide I must use some DHCPv6 server with rad?
19:02 < sibiria> that depends entirely on the ISP
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19:03 < phy1729> A common residential setup is dhcpcd pulls a NA and a PD and then can advertize the PD to the LAN with rad.
19:03 < ym> Well, ISP provides access to Internets with PPPoE tunnel, I configure it with inet6 autoconf to get /64 ipv6 addresses blocks.
19:03 < thrig> some might SLAAC off on that front, or neither
19:03 < sibiria> they can provide your prefix in a few ways besides dhcpv6
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21:12 < vortexx> there's something weird in 7.6 with pkg_info -m. I've gone from barely any python manually installed packages to loads of them (probably the whole lot that got pulled in as dependencies) being listed as manual installs. Strange
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21:14 < phy1729> Did you build any ports using packages? iirc unless you set some variable to -a they'll be marked as manually installed
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21:14 < vortexx> no, I let dpb build my ports from scratch in it's chroot
21:14 < vortexx> this is on VMs that got upgraded using the new build packages
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21:50 < klsrqm> so now that --current is 7.6, does that mean I can run sysupgrade if I am on mainline?
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21:56 < avemestr> klsrqm: I would not expect it to upgrade.
21:56 < avemestr> klsrqm: But you can always run sysupgrade.
21:58 < klsrqm> ah, i might have the wrong impression really -- so sysupgrade wouldn't upgrade me to 7.6 from 7.5? would i need to reinstall?
21:58 < klsrqm> i haven't used OpenBSD long enough yet to have ever gone through such exciting times ;)
21:59 < avemestr> klsrqm: After the official announcement and after the mirror you're using has been updated, running sysupgrade will indeed upgrade your system from 7.5 to 7.6.
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22:00 < avemestr> klsrqm: But since 7.6 hasn't been released yet, you'll not be upgraded if you run sysupgrade today.
22:00 < klsrqm> ah, thanks! so it's just that we're not yet there in the release cycle. :)
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22:00 < avemestr> klsrqm: Unless you use the "-s" option, which will upgrade you to current snapshot. But I wouldn't recommend that at this time, if you're not already running on snapshots.
22:00 < avemestr> klsrqm: Exactly.
22:01 < klsrqm> avemestr: no, i'm not that brave yet.
22:01 < klsrqm> thank you. i'll hang tight and wait until it's ready to be unleashed upon the general populus!
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--- Log closed Thu Sep 26 00:00:28 2024