--- Log opened Wed Oct 23 00:00:33 2024
00:05 < jb1277976> Thanks will look into it
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00:17 < vortexx> ssm_: I was trying to work out if /etc/boot.conf could be configured to output to the serial console configured in qemu so I could get some more output but I haven't figured the port to pass. Tried com0 and tty00 since tty00 is what I managed to log in to via cu. -nographics doesn't work for qemu-system-sparc64 unfortunately
00:19 < dlg> you need to configure ofw to use serial for console on sparc64
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00:28 < setient> it does it by default if no keyboard is attached to a device.
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00:59 < vortexx> dlg: ah yes... problem is it tends to boot so quickly into the OS I don't know if I'll be able to. Could try with no disks attached I guess
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02:08 < vortexx> ok got the console to output to serial (had -nographics instead of -nographic getting in the way), installing a fresh snapshot and going to see what it does on first boot
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02:35 < jb1277976> what is a sparc64 and how would you know you have one ? im assuming just google the model ?
02:36 < thrig> Sun, Digital, and Nintendo came out with 64-bit systems back in the 1990s, sparc being the sun line
02:37 < thrig> some time later intel tried some itanium thing, then went with AMD64 (a bunch of digital engineers went to AMD)
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02:41 < vortexx> SGI did Nintendo's 64 bit cpu. IBM also did the POWER 64 bit arch which still sells
02:45 < vortexx> basically the UNIX vendors decided they all needed their own CPU architectures to move forward in the late 80s and started down the RISC path big time. Sun was very succesful at this and went 64bit by the early 90s to mid 90s. Now all this belongs to Oracle, but you can emulate it in qemu (and maybe MAME)
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03:00 < vortexx> ok that didn't give me any extra debug info, crashed exactly the same way
03:09 < jb1277976> Dam, why is life so complicated.. i386 or amd64 life would be easy!
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05:54 < IcePic> jb1277976: except those arches are kind of the odd one out, being most weird of them all. They are fast due to intel putting tons of cash into development, but they are not successful because they are neat,logical and of sound design
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06:19 < renaud> Actually, Intel became successful because IBM had opened the "IBM PC" architecture unlike all others. So more companies were able to build computers with Intel CPUs.
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06:25 < dlg> "architecture"
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06:27 < vegadoom> i have to imagine a decent chunk of people running talos systems run openbsd on them
06:29 < tercal> Anyone ever tried building weakforced on OpenBSD? It's pretty useful especially for protecting mail servers and Dovecot supports it, but unfortunately I failed to build -> https://github.com/PowerDNS/weakforced
06:30 < renaud> I tried to make a port a few years ago, but I never completed it. I am not sure I still have my "code".
06:31 < tercal> oh
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11:00 < thyssentishman> is there a way to set the type of static files without extension to text/plain with httpd?
11:00 < thyssentishman> something like:
11:00 < thyssentishman> text/plain txt ""
11:02 < pardis> are you looking for 'default type'?
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11:07 < thyssentishman> pardis: yes, thank you :)
11:08  * thyssentishman remembers to RTFM
11:11 < xse> utf-8 friendly version being: "text"/"plain; charset=utf-8"
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17:37 < klsrqm> anyone on -current experience USB bugs? i'm using an USB keyboard&mouse switching hub and i notice that lately it's been disconnecting from the hub quite a lot. sometimes even while typing. 
17:37 < klsrqm> where do i look to start debugging?
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17:39 < klsrqm> dmesg is littered with USB detaching stuff
17:39 < klsrqm> https://paste.c-net.org/HuevosHeirloom
17:42 < klsrqm> and again: https://paste.c-net.org/HuevosHeirloom
17:42 < klsrqm> sorry
17:42 < klsrqm> https://paste.c-net.org/KimballAired
17:53 < Bradipo> I have a mouse that seems to attach and detach repeatedly.
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18:01 < thrig> the USB stack probably does need more work
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19:06 < klsrqm> how could i dig deeper than dmesg? i didn't have this problem on -stable or on 7.5 i think
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19:24 < IcePic> I've had mice where my cats ate on the cables, and those would attach/detach based on my mouse movements. Very annoying
19:25 < puffybuf> "startx" on a fresh install is a trip
19:25 < IcePic> especially if using winxp or so, which makes sounds when usb attaches and detaches
19:25 < puffybuf> hey what window manager should I use?
19:26 < betabug> cwm
19:27 < puffybuf> oh I already have cwm
19:28 < byteskeptical> done
19:29 < puffybuf> guys I love openbsd
19:29 < Bradipo> fvwm
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19:39 < puffybuf> is there no example cwmrc all I get is a blank screen
19:39 < Bradipo> You get a blank screen?
19:39 < byteskeptical> you're in
19:39 < Bradipo> What does that mean?
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19:39 < puffybuf> well it has a background
19:40 < Bradipo> Have you checked /etc/examples ?
19:40 < Bradipo> Looks like there isn't one there.
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19:41 < puffybuf> exec cwm in my .xinitrc is all I did
19:41 < sibiria> you're not supposed to "startx"
19:41 < puffybuf> is that bad?
19:41 < byteskeptical> puffybuf: http://paste.debian.net/hidden/7d64aab0/
19:41 < sibiria> you're supposed to use xenodm
19:41 < Bradipo> If it works for you, I guess not.
19:43 < thrig> until startx is totally killed off
19:44 < byteskeptical> he has at least 6 months left
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19:46 < Bradipo> startx is dead like BSD?
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19:47 < sibiria> startx doesn't do the whole secure locked-down session etc. dance that xenodm does
19:48 < Bradipo> I haven't actually used startx in years, even before OpenBSD started souring it.
19:49 < Bradipo> If I'm going to run X, I just use a DM.  (used to be xdm, now xenodm).  I don't really see the point of having a system disable X and then login to just the console and then random decide I want to start X for some reason.
19:50 < puffybuf> ok ok I put it in /etc/rc.conf.local now I'm gonna fix up cwm to make it presentable
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19:51 < puffybuf> would be nice to have an example cwmrc if you're putting cwm in the sets
19:51 < sibiria> correct way is to "rcctl enable xenodm" - but effectively that also only adds "xenodm_flags=" to rc.conf.local, so you're good
19:52 < Bradipo> puffybuf: There is an EXAMPLES section in the man page.
19:53 < Bradipo> "correct way", lol.  I've always just used vi to edit /etc/rc.conf.local. 
19:54 < sibiria> it's the correct way, because at some point rcctl may do other things than just add/modify one line of text in rc.conf.local
19:54 < Bradipo> That will be a sad day.
19:54 < pardis> I'd argue rcctl enable is *incorrect* unless you have only ever made changes using rcctl
19:55 < pardis> if you have comments in rc.conf.local, for example, rcctl will sort the file so that all comments go at the top instead of in the places you put them
19:55 < Bradipo> The day that it ceases to be possible to configure OpenBSD using just vi will be sad.
19:55 < Bradipo> Yes, I noticed that the other day.
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19:55 < Bradipo> I thought I would try rcctl enable to change something and my comments went into strange locations (e.g. the daily email sent me a diff).
19:56 < pardis> the only way that using rcctl to edit rc.conf.local is ever correct is if you treat it as a non-human-readable file that may only be parsed by rcctl
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19:57 < sibiria> "the only way that using crontab -e to edit /var/cron/blah is ever correct is if ..."
19:57 < thrig> I've had to fix /etc/passwd corrupted by manual edits (thanks, pico, for hard wrapping that user entry!! thanks, other sysadmin, for using pico without learning it!!!)
19:57 < pardis> crontab -e doesn't mangle the order of your crontabs
19:58 < thrig> (pretty sure that other sysadmin was at google, last I checked)
19:58 < sibiria> and manually editing the local rc.conf may in an eventual future not be sufficient to enable a service or set its flags, but rcctl will always do it correctly, notwithstanding the annoyance of it apparently jumbling people's comments
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20:01 < pardis> that's true insofar as any change one could imagine might be committed to CVS, I suppose
20:01 < sibiria> Bradipo: i don't think there will ever be a moment where you won't be able to do those edits manually. i'm just saying that, similar to "crontab -e" which does a few other things than edit the crontab, rcctl too may eventually perform additional functions for openbsd's implementation of rc
20:02 < sibiria> (and doing those things in the right way, in the right order, so you don't have to)
20:02 < sibiria> vipw is another example of that
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20:02 < pardis> both crontab -e and vipw just open normal editors and don't rearrange the file once you've edited (other than to syntax-check and tell you if it's wrong)
20:03 < pardis> what rcctl does goes far beyond that
20:03 < pardis> a better comparison for /etc/passwd would be usermod, perhaps
20:03 < sibiria> correct. they make temp files, set locks, invoke changes etc.
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20:03 < sibiria> rcctl reordering the file is probably not an intended behavior, just a mishap
20:05 < sibiria> crontab -e makes a temporary file for the change, so things don't screw up on the start of a minute if you happen to be editing at that point
20:06 < sibiria> vipw does a few similar things, and produces the secured storage at the end
20:07 < pardis> is there a point to describing random features?
20:08 < sibiria> yes, they are random features along the lines of rcctl enable/disable/set flags are random features for their intended purpose, so that users don't barge in there with vi/nano :)
20:08 < pardis> no, my whole point is that they are qualitatively different features
20:09 < pardis> if I run crontab -e or vipw and make some changes, then the changes I make go into my crontab or /etc/passwd, and only those changes
20:09 < pardis> how those changes get there isn't important to me as a user
20:09 < pardis> if I run 'rcctl enable', the whole file gets rewritten, not modified
20:10 < sibiria> unfortunate design. someone should complain so the tool gets corrected
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20:44 < ssm_> thanks for the free *BSD advertisement, linus. not gonna mention why, but you can figure it out
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20:48 < jb1277976> using a levnova l440 i just installed openbsd and i can't get another tty.. all the keys are function keys f1 f2 etc.. any ideas how to get another tty ?
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20:50 < sibiria> hold ctrl+alt first?
20:50 < jb1277976> yea tried that
20:50 < sibiria> did you mean you want to open a new terminal emulator in X/cwm, or switch to another tty on the console?
20:50 < ssm_> maybe you have fn lock set?
20:50 < Bradipo> So the only keys on your keyboard are f1, f2, f3, etc?   You have no ctrl, no alt, no a, b, c, d, etc.?
20:51 < jb1277976> aw i can try all those ? let me try i though it was just ctrl+alt and the f1 f2 keys 
20:51 < jb1277976> i've never had a laptop with so many fn keys 
20:51 < Bradipo> I'm just trying to make sense of your claim that "all the keys are function keys".
20:52 < jb1277976> the f1 keys all have something on it
20:52 < jb1277976> f* keys
20:52 < Bradipo> I've never seen a keyboard that was made solely of Fn keys, but who knows.
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20:52 < jb1277976> you need a pic ?
20:52 < sibiria> it's just ctrl+alt+F-key, but maybe your laptop is configured (in efi/bios) to have the special functions there by default, without holding Fn first
20:53 < Bradipo> Are you using X or just the console?
20:53 < jb1277976> tty Bradipo 
20:53 < ssm_> could wsconsctl keyboard.map be useful at all?
20:53 < jb1277976> im installing everything then will get to X
20:54 < Bradipo> I see, so you want to switch to a different tty.  Normally you do that by pressing ctrl-alt-fX where X is one of 1, 2, 3, or 4.
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20:55 < Bradipo> It looks like ctrl-alt-f6 should also work.
20:55 < jb1277976> let me try
20:55 < Bradipo> ctrl-alt-f5 is reserved for X/xenodm and is therefore disabled for tty.
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20:56 < sibiria> jb1277976: many thinkpads have a setting to make the function keys do their special op (volume, backlight, etc.) by default
20:56 < sibiria> i think you have that enabled
20:57 < sibiria> there should be a setting that makes those keys behave like F1-12 by default, and special op by holding down the "fn" modifier key first. that's what you want
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21:02 < jb1277976> ok.. im in x but i dont see cwm as the defualt window manager.. its fvwm i did pkg_info -Q cwm and its not there.. im using current
21:02 < lucas> cwm is part of xbase
21:03 < lucas> iirc, if there is no ~/.xinitrc, it'll launch fvwm
21:03 < lucas> which is consistent with what you're seeing
21:03 < thrig> grep -r fvwm /etc/X11
21:03 < lucas> you can create an executable ~/.xinitrc with the content
21:03 < lucas> #!/bin/sh
21:03 < ssm_> xenodm will use fvwm by default as well if there's no ~/.xsession
21:03 < lucas> exec cwm
21:05 < ssm_> xinit is worse for security than xenodm as there's no privsep with xinit. it just runs as your user
21:05 < ssm_> also it's broken if you're using amdgpu(4) or intel(4) (modesetting(4) and vga(4) work though)
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21:07 < jb1277976> one sec let me post my .xsession
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21:08 < jb1277976> https://0x0.st/XU84.txt
21:09 < sibiria> add #!/bin/ksh to the top, and make the file +x
21:09 < sibiria> (it's an executable)
21:11 < ssm_> you don't need to make ~/.xsession executable
21:12 < ssm_>  /etc/X11/xenodm/Xsession: startup=$HOME/.xsession ... /bin/sh "$startup"
21:13 < ssm_> or give it a shebang
21:13 < lucas> ssm_: https://man.openbsd.org/xenodm#SESSION_PROGRAM
21:13 < lucas> > The user's .xsession file might look something like this example. Don't forget that the file must have execute permission.
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21:13 < jb1277976> wierd on fvwm if i scrolld own on the menu it says start cwm
21:14 < ssm_> lucas: well the actual script that runs xsession explicitly handles the case where the file doesn't have execution set. I guess it's a documentation bug
21:14 < jb1277976> nvm
21:15 < jb1277976> i put exec cwm in .xinitrc and its working
21:16 < ssm_> ~/.xsession is for xdm/xenodm. ~/.xinitrc is for xinit/startx
21:17 < jb1277976> ssm_: aw.. yea i didn't have xenodm start at boot i never enabled it
21:17 < jb1277976> Thanks for the info
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21:19 < lucas> ssm_: lol, it's like that since import: https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/xenocara/app/xdm/config/Attic/Xsession.cpp?rev=1.1.1.1&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
21:20 < lucas> but well, having it executable allows it to be a perl script
21:20 < lucas> if for whatever reason you wanted that
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21:30 < jb1277976> anyone heard anythine of firefox and openbsd locking up when launched ? i've rebooted a couple of times while launching it
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21:32 < sibiria> on 7.5 and 7.6 there's a case of firefox crashing when it (or perhaps mesa/drm) has run out of video memory. that's the closest problem i'm aware of
21:33 < jb1277976> let me try chromium
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21:35 < jb1277976> chrome opened up quick
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21:37 < jb1277976> current is the development branch right ? i think i need to install stable or the regular one
21:38 < thyssentishman> jb1277976: with the last snapshot I don't have that problem anymore
21:38 < sibiria> current/snapshot is the development point, yes. oft-associated with pain and misery
21:39 < jb1277976> got it
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21:39 < thyssentishman> snapshot #383
21:39 < thyssentishman> see here https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=172968672424859&w=2
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21:44 < jb1277976> stuff crashing on me was probably cause i was on current. i just wanted to test it to make sure everything (driver/firwmare) where working right.
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21:51 < thyssentishman> using snapshots is using current
21:52 < thyssentishman> well only if you are on the latest I guess
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21:52 < thyssentishman> which I'm assuming you are not since firefox is still crashing your computer
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22:22 < jb1277976> can you set your display bigger or wider then whats aloud ? like for example this display is 1366x768 but everyting is so big can i go 1920x1028 will it do anything wierd ?
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22:28 < ssm_> browsing the lists, surprised there's no discussion on chromium manifest v3. I get we have unwind, and that's easy to configure for adblock, but I'm sure some users want script blocking as well which manifest v3 is supposed to kill
22:28 < ssm_> s/ad(block)/dns \1ing/
22:28 < Bradipo> What is "manifest v3"?
22:29 < Bradipo> So they want to take over your DNS queries?
22:29 < systemdsucks> also disable any adblocker
22:29 < ssm_> chromium extensions api, which will break things like ublock origin (likely deliberately, google is an ad company)
22:30 < Bradipo> My "adblocker" works regardless of what browser or device I'm using because it's done via DNS.
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22:30 < Bradipo> Of course, they could try to hijack DNS queries by using something like DoH.
22:30 < Bradipo> But, they usually use a DNS name for the name of the DoH server, lol.  So you just take care of that.
22:31 < ssm_> DNS adblocking won't protect you against malicious/annoying scripts. you could just disable scripts, but there's a small amount of websites that need scripts to operate and are also ass-cancer with dns blocking
22:31 < ssm_> youtube, twitch, knowyourmeme being a few
22:31 < Bradipo> Yeah, I haven't taken the time to figure out Youtube... but unless they're relying on static IPs, they must be using DNS somewhere.
22:32 < Bradipo> A "script" still has to "connect" somewhere.  I find it unlikely that they are using static IPs for this.
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22:40 < Bradipo> Never heard of or used twitch or knowyourmeme.
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22:45 < thrig> pretty sure some ad blockers have been chasing cname redirections, so a next step for the spammers would be to pass IPs from a generated page down to the client to avoid DNS lookups
22:46 < Bradipo> Yeah, it's a bit of a rat race, but so far I think it's working (for me).
22:47 < Bradipo> However, I'm curious how they avoid a DNS lookup...
22:48 < Bradipo> The script to generate the IPs has to be fetched, right?
22:48 < Bradipo> DNS is just too convenient for them to avoid not using it somewhere.
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22:48 < jb1277976> what does this mean Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 1366 x 768, maximum 16384 x 16384
22:49 < jb1277976> got that from xrandr
22:50 < Bradipo> Probably the minimum, current, and maximum desktop sizes that it supports.
22:51 < jb1277976> ok
22:53 < Bradipo> Also, CNAME redirections don't matter if you block the main source of the DNS domain.
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22:56 < sibiria> Bradipo: all they have to do is do the name resolving internally in chrome/chromium, instead of with your system-configured DNS
22:56 < sibiria> "for your safety"
22:58 < Bradipo> Right, I already discussed DoH above... but how do they "connect" to their DoH service?
22:58 < sibiria> to 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.9.9?
22:58 < Bradipo> Do they do it via IP?  Or are they using DNS names?  Which again must still be resolved by *my* service.
22:58 < Bradipo> I block access to 8.8.8.8.  Game over.
22:59 < Bradipo> DoH doesn't have much to do with 8.8.8.8 anyway.
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22:59 < sibiria> it's irrelevant whether it's DoH, DoT or dnscrypt. if they decide to use static IPs it's an endless cat-and-mouse game
22:59 < ssm_> DoH is just boneless DoT
23:00 < Bradipo> Right, but they are less likely to use static IPs, that's the point.
23:00 < Bradipo> Because it's too onerous for them.
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23:02 < Bradipo> I think the number of people using DNS blocking for blocking ads is small enough that it's not worth their while.
23:02 < Bradipo> Just like the number of SMTP servers that utilize greylisting is low enough that it continues to remain an effective tool.
23:05 < sibiria> they don't need to use hostnames to get a set of IPs for internal resolution
23:05 < sibiria> they can settle for one or two static IPs as always
23:05 < Bradipo> Right, they could resort to using IPs.
23:06 < sibiria> right - just like we do on system level
23:06 < Bradipo> And then when those IPs are discovered and blocked, they have to switch.
23:06 < sibiria> we don't set hostnames there, because then DNS would never work
23:06 < Bradipo> e.g. if an ad service decided to use a static IP (or two) to fetch a list of IPs that their ads are served from, I just have to block 2 static IPs and then I stop getting ads.
23:07 < sibiria> and the actual infra behind 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.9.9 is massively anycasted
23:07 < Bradipo> Doesn't matter if it's anycasted.
23:07 < Bradipo> Because if it is leaving my network, the destination is still 8.8.8.8, and my firewall only ever sees 8.8.8.8.
23:07 < Bradipo> So that's what gets blocked.
23:07 < sibiria> my point is they don't need do dynamically fetch a constantly changing list of IPs :)
23:07 < Bradipo> No, they don't, but that just makes it easier for me.
23:08 < thrig> bad actors can rotate netblocks
23:08 < Bradipo> anycast doesn't make it possible to bypass firewalls.
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23:08 < Bradipo> It just makes the traffic more "responsive" because it's "closer".
23:09 < sibiria> i think in the end it only makes it easier for people to break the browser, unless google wants to be friendly and fall back to system lookups
23:09 < Bradipo> Or load balanced.
23:09 < thrig> various corporations probably want system lookups so they can account for what is going on
23:09 < Bradipo> Whatever the case may be, I know that when I'm on someone elses network, I see a ton of ads that I never see on my network. :-)
23:10 < Bradipo> If it gets too bad, I'll just hijack . and then start whitelisting DNS names that I want to allow. lol.
23:11 < sibiria> i never see any ads on any network, because i don't use chromium
23:11 < Bradipo> So far, it's not that bad because there aren't enough people doing it to make that much of a difference.
23:11 < sibiria> firefox and ublock origin is fantastic
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23:37 < jb1277976> i've happily been on openbsd for about 2 hours now everything working
23:37 < jb1277976> :P
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23:38 < jb1277976> cwm is so awesome
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--- Log closed Thu Oct 24 00:00:35 2024