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07:14 < IcePic> polarian: do not confuse "did not have files to download" with "we ran sysupgrade and applied anything available"
07:15 < IcePic> I can't think there would be a requirement that there would always be a file change when you run "yum upgrade", "apt upgrade" or "sysupgrade", only that it has been run weekly and applied whatever is found
07:16 < IcePic> and "OpenBSD doesn't get patches weekly" is of course true, -current gets daily or almost hourly upgrades, depending on arch
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07:28 < renaud> the weekly patches system is only a good idea when the OS is so broken it needs multiple patches a week
07:31 < quinq> If your OS doesn't produce a good weekly CVE quota, that means your OS is insecure
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07:57 < IcePic> quinq: perhaps you can buy addons for that, like clownstrike to run in kernel context on your OS to improve the CVE numbers
07:59 < ssm_> you can only get more CVEs after you purchase UNIX certification from AT&T
07:59 < IcePic> can we call ourselves SysVR8 or something then?
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08:43 < pardis> how about 4.5BSD-Encumbered?
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08:48 < IcePic> Cucumbered
08:48 < IcePic> pardis: but yes, it's time for a bump
08:49 < pardis> we can't bump it if we're appealing to AT&T, they were the ones who demanded there not be a 5BSD in the first place
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08:50 < IcePic> SysVBSD
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09:17 < quinq> What about CVEBSD
09:17 < quinq> People with buy it
09:18 < quinq> “Look at all our nice documented CVEs, ever increasing by the day!”
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13:07 < polarian> vortexx: I am aware, I have been meaning to write a syspatch script to check and email me and then cron it (maybe hourly?) but I have more pressing issues... however I am on the ML and Erratas are notified so I can syspatch the moment I see it.
13:07 < polarian> Obviously I am against the idea that less frequent updates means insecure os
13:08 < polarian> as for current, its development, its not security... usually
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13:08 < polarian> the number of security patches on ANY branch is low
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13:10 < polarian> quinq: "CVEBSD is so secure, look how often it gets patches"
13:10 < polarian> :)
13:11 < sibiria> syspatch script: [ -n "$(syspatch -c)" ] && echo "alarm!!!" | mail -s updatez yourwheelie
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14:12 < vortexx> Boulevard des Sports 20
14:12 < vortexx> oops
14:12 < vortexx> https://dataswamp.org/~solene/2024-11-15-why-i-stopped-using-openbsd.html we lost Solene :/
14:13 < vortexx> polarian: cron daily is probably enough, I mirror syspatches on my build VM
14:14 < vortexx> polarian: https://clbin.com/hWFdM my script
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14:18 < thrig> sad times if that cd fails
14:18 < tercal> Installed Nextcloud on my OpenBSD 7.6 box, then updated Nextcloud within the administration panel. Now, pkg_add -u reports; "Collision in nextcloud-29.0.8->29.0.9: the following files already exist...."It seems to be a missing package registration. Repair ? [y/N/a]. Shortly, pkg_add tries to upgrade my Nextcloud from 29.0.8 to 29.0.9, but I already have 30.0.2 due to integrated update. How to set pkg_add -u to ignore and stop checking nextcloud package 
14:18 < tercal> from now on?
14:19 < vortexx> thrig: why would cd fail?
14:19 < vortexx> all it would do is download to / and syspatches aren't huge
14:20 < vortexx> tercal: just like using cpan instead of sets/packages, you should only use the packages for nextcloud, updating via the nextcloud admin interface runs the risk of breaking later upgrades
14:20 < thrig> because a directory does not exist, or maybe permission denied
14:21 < thrig> and then the script goes on blindly in the wrong directory, which can be a lot of fun to clean up, and takes time
14:22 < thrig> and after only one such mess, one might take a dubious view of any unchecked cd call
14:22 < vortexx> so what would be the better way? Check for the dir's existence first?
14:22 < thrig> cd dir || exit 1
14:23 < renaud> vortexx: the worst in this article is that she calls systemd useful with many good features
14:24 < vortexx> she's in an environment that requires it and she's done her homework on it I suppose
14:25 < renaud> I also use linux daily because of many of the stuff she writes about, but I still keep my servers under OpenBSD
14:25 < polarian> vortexx: thats the script to update your mirror?
14:26 < vortexx> polarian: to add the latest syspatches to the mirror, but not to update it. I have another script for that
14:30 < polarian> cool
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14:38 < tercal> Thank you very much, vortexx. Is there any way to set pkg_add skip a package (to not update it) ?
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14:48 < anexit> how can I remove all files but keep .gz?
14:49 < renaud> find . | grep -v \.gz$ | xags rm ?
14:49 < anexit> tried that
14:49 < anexit> xargs just rm everything
14:52 < renaud> I don't see any reason for that: https://0bin.net/paste/mr5gAT+g#7ZwdPc2-j0t7JEWV3iTzzD3H8Yzy1QTTspPRFVS5l2n
14:53 < anexit> hmm
14:53 < anexit> ls | grep -v '\.gz$' | xargs rm
14:53 < renaud> unless you have a file with a strange name like with "*" in the name or space with flags
14:54 < anexit> I do
14:54 < anexit> Maybe I need to export it using rand
14:54 < renaud> then, find . | grep -v \.gz$ | while read F; do rm "$F"; done
14:55 < anexit> ah
14:55 < anexit> bingo
14:55 < anexit> Thanks!
14:56 < thrig> rm -- "$F"
14:56 < thrig> also if there are \r or \n on filenames some shell constructs will be sad
14:57 < anexit> yeah
14:57 < thrig> the -- is to turn off flags, so nobody naughty can touch a -rf file
14:58 < flart> does openbsd find have the -not flag? then with that.
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14:58 < inz> find . -type f -not -name '*.gz' -delete
14:59 < renaud> it has the -not
14:59 < renaud> as always, more than 1 way to do it :)
14:59 < anexit> well shit
14:59 < anexit> ha
15:00 < renaud> note that xargs will interpret the spaces too
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15:26 < IcePic> isn't there some kind of -prune thing for find that removes results
15:27 < thrig> that's to keep find out of certain directories
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15:30 < IcePic> weird it uses the word file there. "It causes find to not descend into the current file."
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15:39 < quinq> polarian, that's the plan :)
15:39 < thrig> a directory is a file (or moreso was back in the day)
15:39 < polarian> quinq: ???
15:39 < polarian> oh
15:40 < polarian> sorry I was confused, I found what I said :P
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15:55 < vortexx> thrig: thanks for the hints, have ajusted scripts accordingly
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16:21 < shtrophic> How unstable is current _really_
16:22 < shtrophic> Is anyone running it on vps that they expect to work reliably?
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16:45 < vortexx> shtrophic: sometimes it doesn't boot, or services break
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16:56 < anexit> how can I make sure /var/log/maillog is 655?
16:57 < thrig> what would the execute bits be for
16:57 < anexit> munin
16:58 < anexit> 2024/11/18-11:55:11 [12763]     File /var/log/maillog cannot be read.
16:59 < thrig> execute bits are not required to read a file; why the execute bits?
17:00 < anexit> 644
17:00 < thrig> (anyways you might read up on newsyslog.conf)
17:00 < anexit> yeah I found it
17:00 < anexit> :D
17:00 < anexit> ;p;
17:00 < anexit> it was set to 640
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17:04 < anexit> thrig thanks!
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17:43 < mozhaaak_> Hello, I just notised that sway is ported. I used the included startsway.sh and got multiple permisson denied errors. What is the right way to do about it but shamelessly chown'ing it to my user.
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17:46 < mozhaaak_> It does start after i stop xenodm and chown /dev/dri/{card0,render128} and /dev/{wskbd*,wsmouse*}, i'm guessing it's the wrong way to deal with this
17:47 < mozhaaak_> Are there any groups or services i need to add/run? Please help
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18:02 < lts> Just use i3
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18:13 < ssm_> lts: unhelpful mozhaaak_: are you using startsway.sh?
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19:24 < aswjrisp> I am new to openbsd. I am planning on setting up a network. I was thinking of having severs behind a network switch. In front of the network switch I am planning to have router, firewall and load balancer.
19:24 < aswjrisp> I know I can use pf for firewall and relayd for load balancer.
19:25 < aswjrisp> Could the router, pf and relayd 
19:26 < aswjrisp> Does it make sense to have the router, pf and relayd all be one one machine or would it be better to have that functionality on different machines?
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19:29 < aswjrisp> I was thinking of putting the router, pf and relayd on a i386 desktop. If an i386 desktop would not be sufficient for that combination of services would an amd64 be sufficient?
19:30 < aswjrisp> Or would it be better to split the services up over different machines?
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19:37 < aswjrisp> If I already had the hardware I could just test it, but I am still at the planning phase and have not got the hardware yet. Tips or suggestion would be appreciated.
19:39 < aswjrisp> This would be for a small network initially, I am thinking just three amd64 servers behind the network switch to start with.
19:46 < mischief> i386 probably belongs in a museum, not in front of your network
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20:25 < tommyrot> aswjrisp: you can do those things on the same machine without issue, if you're buying new hardware go for amd64 not i386
20:26 < tommyrot> even second hand it wouldn't make much sense, unless you live in a region where the market is different
20:27 < sibiria> bigger question is, what kind of network throughput are you hoping to see?
20:27 < sibiria> openbsd is still some ways behind the others in network performance, and in many cases the throughput is heavily CPU-bound
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20:28 < Bradipo> I didn't realize it was possible to buy new hardware for i386...
20:28 < izder456> really? i would have assumed our network stack was relatively efficient
20:28 < sibiria> obscure industrial controllers etc. ;)
20:29 < aswjrisp> mischief: thanks for that suggestion.
20:29 < aswjrisp> tommyrot: it is good to know they would all work on one machine.
20:29 < sibiria> izder456: unfortunately not
20:29 < sibiria> but it's getting better and the pace has been increasing the past 4-5 releases
20:30 < aswjrisp> It would be used hardware.
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20:30 < pardis> pf needs to be on *a* router, since it won't actually do anything if it isn't in the routing path
20:31 < pardis> so if you tried to put pf on a different machine, you'd just end up with two routers
20:31 < oldlaptop> aswjrisp: What's the purpose of this "network" going to be, exactly? (That would inform how much hardware you need for it.)
20:32 < sibiria> relay for cat (and pufferfish) memes
20:32 < oldlaptop> Cat memes can get pretty big. Might be a lot of load.
20:32 < izder456> sibiria: Hm- openbsd's networking stack is good enough for my selfhosting needs. i have a cluster of different machines hosting vmd machines that a queue up with qemu (as many installers can't use the serial mode of vmd). i route it with dhcpd and pf to statically assign ips to certain macs
20:33 < izder456> its good to hear that obsd's network stack is improving. ive been using obsd since 6.9
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20:33 < aswjrisp> sibiria: oldlaptop: It is going to be for a small local non profit.  Uses would be static website, inventory management system, point of sale, forum, other smaller internal uses.
20:34 < sibiria> izder456: i agree that the stack is good enough. the *throughput* just cannot compare with linux, freebsd, windows. but if you have enough CPU grunt you won't have problems getting above multiple gigabit/sec
20:34 < sibiria> it was a lot worse just 2-3 years ago
20:34 < izder456> ah right that makes sense
20:34 < sibiria> but we're getting there
20:35 < oldlaptop> You'd want a sense of how much traffic you're going to have. I'd imagine a "forum" (phpbb or something like that?) is going to be the biggest load.
20:36 < aswjrisp> I was thinking about i386 because they do not have a hardware budget.
20:36 < sibiria> then buy something used, amd64, as suggested
20:36 < oldlaptop> some crusty 25-year-old i386 box, for example, would probably be questionable for even single digits of concurrent phpbb users
20:36 < sibiria> reuse old stuff that's still capable
20:36 < izder456> speaking of phpbb, can httpd do php? and can it support certbot? i have a friend who is trying to migrate her forum from debian
20:36 < izder456> she used nginx before
20:36 < aswjrisp> oldlaptop: the forum would be internal and have about 50 people.
20:36 < sibiria> izder456: httpd can interface with php, yes
20:36 < oldlaptop> Probably doesn't matter very much then.
20:36 < thrig> or nginx is in ports
20:37 < pardis> 3 servers behind a load balancer is to a 50-user forum as a nuclear warhead is to breaking up an argument
20:37 < izder456> thrig: i told her that she should use as much as she can from base cos her big concern is security.
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20:38 < izder456> I'll relay that httpd can do php to her, cos i wasn't sure
20:38 < pardis> it can't "do" php
20:38 < sibiria> it speaks with php the same way nginx would
20:38 < pardis> it just speaks fastcgi, and so does php
20:38 < izder456> ah i see
20:38 < oldlaptop> We'd need something more specific than "i386" to opine on what the hardware is actually going to be capable of. If that means "crusty old PIII boxes from 25 yuars ago", I don't want the same one running phpbb (or whatever) and anything else, probably even if it's just 50-odd users
20:38 < sibiria> the setup is more or less the same, just different syntax for configuring
20:38 < sibiria> (whether nginx or httpd)
20:39 < oldlaptop> but that could also mean "screaming 3GHz netburst space heater"
20:39 < oldlaptop> dual-netburst even
20:39 < pardis> if your goal is to use as much as possible from base, why use certbot?
20:39 < sibiria> Pentium 4 beigeboxes spared a lot of feet from freezeburn
20:40 < izder456> pardis: cos she wants ssl?
20:40 < oldlaptop> If all you have and can have is quarter-century junk, you'll find you can still accomplish a lot with it.
20:40 < aswjrisp> pardis: I was thinking the three servers would be desktop amd64 boxes. With three for redundancy so I could take one down for maintenance and still have two up.
20:40 < sibiria> 50-man SoHo could probably survive with just two :)
20:40 < pardis> izder456: that doesn't really answer the question
20:41 < oldlaptop> Again, "desktop amd64 boxes" could be an awful lot of things, even if we're assuming this stuff isn't exactly new.
20:41 < izder456> wait, theres ways to set up ssl on base openbsd thats as easy as or easier than certbot?
20:41 < pardis> there is acme-client(1)
20:41 < sibiria> there is "acme-client". which is rudimentary, but easy to wrangle
20:41 < izder456> oh yeah i forgot about acme
20:41 < pardis> you didn't forget about acme if you're using certbot
20:41 < pardis> you probably mean you forgot about acme-client(1)
20:41 < pardis> acme is the protocol
20:42 < oldlaptop> there's a pretty big difference between (say) my trusty old single-CPU athlon64 box (it was pretty damn cool 20 years ago!) and some foo bridge optiplex from the local dumpster
20:42 < izder456> well its not my server, its my friends. she just asked me cos she knew i use openbsd
20:42 < izder456> i tried to redirect her to misc@ but i havent seen her mail there yet
20:43 < pardis> aswjrisp: but do you need redundancy? redundancy costs money and time (in maintenance and testing failure modes); what is the cost of a 30-minute maintenance window each week or so?
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20:44 < aswjrisp> pardis: that is a good point it would be simpler with down time maintenace windows.
20:44 < aswjrisp> also less expensive.
20:46 < oldlaptop> Extra decades-old hardware is extra electricity too.
20:46 < Bradipo> Unless it's a soekris.
20:46 < oldlaptop> (possibly a lot, depending on what it is)
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20:46 < oldlaptop> also, I remember all those P4 space heaters being stealth black and shiny silver and stuff, beige was waaaaaay uncool by then
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20:47 < oldlaptop> definitely by the time Intel was slapping two of them on the same package
20:47 < Bradipo> I still a beige PIII somewhere I think.
20:50 < thrig> I did do winter apartment heating with a rack of servers, back in the day
20:50 < oldlaptop> sounds loud
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20:51 < aswjrisp> Thanks for all the helpful tips and suggestions.
20:51 -!- mw1144 is now known as green44
20:54 < izder456> curious what you guys' think of this: https://izder456.tumblr.com/post/759376596551483392/bsd-misconceptions
20:54 < izder456> or this too https://izder456.tumblr.com/post/754939183162933248/please-dont-say-bsd-distribution
20:57 < oldlaptop> I guess you're not linking people to calomel, so that's better than it could be.
20:58 < oldlaptop> I'd not just offhandedly suggest turning SMT on as though that's commonly a "worthwhile" performance improvement. It's not normally a particularly big deal even under ideal circumstances, and openbsd's scheduler does not feed it ideally.
20:59 < izder456> calomel. lol. god the amount of times i see newbies follow that tutorial. GROSSSSSSSS
21:00 < izder456> on cpus that are ten or more years old, smt is almost needed. although on anything newer, i don't touch smt stuff.
21:00 < izder456> the defaults are already quite nice
21:00 < oldlaptop> CPUs "ten or more years old" with SMT are pretty much all intel products that get maaaaaaybe 10% or so more throughput from it under ideal circumstances.
21:01 < Bradipo> calomel went out of fashion last century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calomel
21:01 < izder456> i daily drive a i5-5300U based laptop, all i do is enable smt, add my user to the staff login class, and use solene's obsdfreqd
21:01 < oldlaptop> If you need to bump limits on things like open file descriptors to run a particular package, the install message will generally tell you.
21:01 < oldlaptop> Otherwise there's no reason to fiddle with it.
21:02 < izder456> Yeah, agreed. I need to update my dotfiles cos my sysctl is still dated. i dont even use it.
21:03 < oldlaptop> SMT on Haswell isn't doing much for you even with a scheduler that's carefully optimized for it.
21:04 < izder456> I'm on broadwell though. Do I really not need smt?
21:05 < oldlaptop> (Shows you how well I remember the numbers, I guess. Broadwell is the Haswell microarchitecture, die-shrunk; the same applies to it)
21:05 < oldlaptop> But no, you're not going to "need SMT".
21:05 < izder456> oh lol. i see. I'll turn it off then. it seemed to improve performance, although that is probably placebo
21:05 < oldlaptop> You don't even "need" it on (say) AMD zen CPUs that get perhaps as much as 20% more throughput out of it
21:05 < izder456> I need to do a fresh install this weekend. havent gotten to it yet
21:06 < Bradipo> Would be interesting to "measure" the performance difference.
21:06 < izder456> I have some bad partitioning settings, it would  be worth starting fresh.
21:06 < oldlaptop> (note "throughput", as opposed to interactive responsiveness and so on that you'll actually be caring about on some broadwell-U laptop)
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21:07 < izder456> I gotta reboot one sec
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21:07 < oldlaptop> I don't know offhand if hw.smt limits AMD construction cores (bulldozer et al) to one thread per module; if so *that* would be a case where I'd actually consider changing it.
21:07 < thrig> every time I've benchmarked something toggling SMT it's been "eh, can't tell a difference"
21:08 < oldlaptop> it gives me twice as many gkrellm CPU charts, so that's cool
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21:19 < sibiria> it makes a difference on massively parallel stuff
21:19 < sibiria> a mediocre difference
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21:19 < oldlaptop> maybe 5-10% on intels with SMT IME, maybe 15-20% on zen
21:19 < sibiria> and with mitigations on, the net performance is sometimes worse then without smt
21:19 < sibiria> than*
21:20 < oldlaptop> Guess I don't remember offhand what it did for netburst.
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