--- Log opened Wed Dec 04 00:00:32 2024
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00:07 < sibiria> what yeelong model do you have by the way?
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00:14 < yang3> yeeloong$ doas pkg_add portslist
00:14 < yang3> doas: doas is not enabled, /etc/doas.conf: No such file or directory
00:14 < yang3> do I copy /etc/example/doas.conf /etc/doas.conf
00:14 < yang3> sibiria Yeeloong 8101B
00:15 < yang3> I also have 8089 with Linux installed
00:17 < sibiria> they are pretty much the same, right?
00:17 < sibiria> same CPU/speed, same amount of RAM?
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00:18 < yang3> yes, the same
00:18 < yang3> only screen is larger
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00:19 < yang3> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemote
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00:28 < yang3> can't find portlist... https://paste.debian.net/1338106/
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00:32 < Lucas_> what are you trying to do?
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00:32 < Lucas_> as we said, there are no ports for loongson, so you can't run portslist
00:33 < yang3> https://paste.debian.net/1338109/
00:33 < yang3> I modified /etc/mk.conf and /etc/doas.conf
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00:34 < yang3> Lucas_ I am trying to build irssi as user
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00:44 < Lucas_> but why are you trying to install portslist in order to build irssi?
00:44 < Lucas_> nvm that
00:45 < Lucas_> for your error, cd /usr/ports; doas make fix-permissions
00:45 < Lucas_> assuming you have PORTS_PRIVSEP=Yes in /etc/mk.conf
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01:46 < yang3> it compiles
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02:15 < yang3> Is it possible to stop/break compiling (make) and reboot and continue at a later time? can it somehow be saved for later? because it takes a long time on this little laptop?
02:15 < yang3> It's trying to fetch all the deps
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02:34 < remiliascarlet> kucha: "nvi" sounds kinda like "envy".
02:35 < remiliascarlet> vortexx: I'll give it a try after work.
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03:38 < rnkn> anyone in here on a M1 Macbook as their daily?
03:39 < ssm_> yang3: interrupted builds always resume fine for me. Haven't seen any docs talking about it though
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03:45 < thrig> in theory make should do the right thing
03:46 < thrig> make is more likely to fail if the system clock gets yanked around (bad bios clock, virt timekeeping, etc)
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06:35 < echelon> hi, someone mentioned a while how to install openbsd while booted into a live linux system?
06:39 < echelon> assuming i don't have access to the bios
06:41 < oldlaptop> "don't have access to the BIOS" meaning what, exactly? That's potentially an unrecoverable problem if something goes wrong. (Particularly if this is actually an EFI machine, not "BIOS".)
06:41 < oldlaptop> GRUB can be used to boot into bsd.rd (i.e. the OpenBSD installer), but I wouldn't expect most "live linux systems" to use GRUB in the first place.
06:43 < echelon> i don't mean live as in off of a cd, i mean a linux system that's booted
06:43 < echelon> someone mentioned a way to install openbsd with just dd
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06:45 < oldlaptop> You could overwrite the running system's boot drive with installXX.fs, or something to that effect, I suppose. That strikes me as a Bad Idea.
06:46 < oldlaptop> (as does trying to give further advice without a more complete description of the problem)
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06:48 < echelon> oldlaptop: i'm basically in the same boat as this guy.. https://jcs.org/2014/09/12/remotely_installing_openbsd_qemu
06:48 < echelon> and it seems like a viable option
06:48 < echelon> basically using qemu to install directly to the storage
06:48 < echelon> device
06:49 < echelon> i only have the option of running linux from a limited selection
06:49 < echelon> and the ip kvmi is broken because of outdated certs and such
06:49 < echelon> and java
06:53 < oldlaptop> The qemu procedure strikes me as... relatively reasonable under the specific circumstances outlined there (which appears to be a "live Linux system" in something closer to the "I booted an ubuntu livecd" sense).
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06:54 < oldlaptop> It doesn't seem like a good idea to try that while booted from the same disk you propose to install to, at least not without the ability to restore it out of band if something goes wrong.
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06:55 < echelon> yeah, i can reinstall it from the web control panel thing
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06:58 < oldlaptop> If possible, I'd want a "live" system like that recovery environment, such that there's no possibility of incapacitating the system before reboot.
06:58 < echelon> i guess i could create a tmpfs large enough to hold the minirootfs
06:58 < echelon> there was, but i don't know how to get back into it :/
06:59 < oldlaptop> If you can't have a "live" system, I would want to be chrooted into a tmpfs, with qemu installed inside that.
06:59 < oldlaptop> (well. what I would really want is to find a different hosting solution. but never mind that.)
06:59 < echelon> i guess i could get them to do it via support ticket
07:00 < echelon> yeah, but it's a dedicated server that's only $188/yr :/
07:00 < oldlaptop> If you're paying for support of the "please install this OS on the thing for me" kind, that would seem like an obvious solution
07:03 < oldlaptop> if you're going to be trying the qemu trick, and you can't have a live recovery environment (that's running from RAM/read-only squashfs), I would debootstrap (substitute your favorite linux as desired) under a tmpfs, chroot into that, and run qemu from *that* system, so it's more likely to survive long enough to finish the installation and reboot.
07:04 < oldlaptop> but the whole thing seems like asking for trouble
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07:05 < echelon> thanks
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07:14 < echelon> i'm not even sure what distro the live system runs, if it's uncommon i may have to find a statically linked version of qemu
07:14 < IcePic> I loved the old sun sparc days, where you could just vomit bsd.rd into the swap partition with dd, then at next boot, ask it to boot off the b partition instead of the a partition and then you were in the installer
07:14 < oldlaptop> if it's uncommon, I bet you can still debootstrap into a tmpfs or something
07:14 < IcePic> then again, the openprom stuff could boot off files in directories, on CDs and netboot and so on. Lots of choices there
07:14 < echelon> ah, true
07:15 < oldlaptop> IcePic: why can't we have good firmware? :(
07:15 < oldlaptop> all that effort to transition to... EFI?!
07:15 < oldlaptop> L(
07:15 < oldlaptop> er, :(
07:15 < IcePic> oldlaptop: I don't know. x86 has for the longest time been doing "floppy boot" which seems like a total disaster in retrospect
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07:16 < dlg> i have a diff for amd64 that lets you boot a kernel (like bsd.rd) from the efi system partition
07:16 < IcePic> "hey, we can boot from a floppy, yay". ok, can you boot from cd? "Yes, we read 1.44mb off the cd, pretend it is a floppy in ram and boot off that" ok, weird but could work. How about network boot? "Yes, we read 1.44mb with tftp and put it in ram and boot off that"
07:16 < oldlaptop> Why shouldn't a high-end server in the 21st century boot the same way as an early-80s fixed-disk-less micro? :|
07:17 < oldlaptop> dlg: *that* sounds interesting
07:17 < oldlaptop> rather like the linux "stub loader" thing?
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07:18 < dlg> linux things could be anything, so im hesitant to say yes
07:19 < dlg> https://mild.embarrassm.net/~dlg/diff/boot.esp.amd64
07:19 < oldlaptop> Aaaaaah, not at all like the linux "stub loader"
07:20 < oldlaptop> (which is more or less "linux is an EFI boot loader for itself")
07:20 < dlg> that will let you "boot esp0a:bsd.rd" if bsd.rd is in the same partition as bootx64.efi
07:21 < IcePic> seems small enough
07:22 < dlg> i originally did it for arm64, which is in tree
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07:28 < oldlaptop> can definitely picture cases where that'd be mighty handy
07:29 < dlg> i wish boot partitions were bigger as a matter of course
07:29 < IcePic> the esp_stat() function confuses me. It tries to read a file, if it works, it sets the Filesize and returns 0. If buffer is too small, it allocs a new "filen", does the same GetInfo on it again, and if that works, it sets the Filesize but returns rv, which is set to -1 early on.
07:29 < IcePic> "read a file" <- get info on the file, not literally read it
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07:31 < dlg> i wrote it more than two weeks ago, so there's no chance i remember any detail about it
07:31 < dlg> it's very possible there's bugs
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07:48 < IcePic> of course, I'm not sure if first can fail and second works in order to notice that
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07:52 < echelon> they responded to the ticket rather quickly.. i've just had to plead with them 5 times now to please boot into the gparted live system, this time i attached a screenshot of the gparted live desktop, let's see if that works.
07:54 < IcePic> echelon: for what its worth, I've done the "dd installXX.img" into the bootdisk on remote-arm64 VMs and it worked there. As others have said, if you have some kind of "reset this box to default OS something" button, its probably ok to test around a lot and see what works, since you can always get back to something that works again
07:55 < echelon> cool
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07:55 < echelon> no wonder the rental on these supermicro systems are so cheap, their ip kvmi is near useless
07:56 < echelon> the newer versions are supposed to have html5, but not this guy
07:56 < Manis> ipmitool sol activate?
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08:01 < echelon> Manis: i'm not familiar with it
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08:01 < IcePic> html5 came like 10 years ago or so to SM ipmi 
08:01 < Manis> Back in the days when I had to use Supermicros I always just used the serial console.
08:02 < Manis> It was less trouble I found and I could copy&paste the root password from my password manager :-)
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08:05 < IcePic> the java crap one had to use before html5 was horrible
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08:19 < Manis> :D
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08:26 < echelon> alright! i was able to get networking up and grabbed miniroot76.img with ftp
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08:26 < echelon> there's no deboostrap though
08:26 < echelon> and apt is borked
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08:29 < echelon> IcePic: so you just dd installXX.img to the whole block device or a specific partition?
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08:30 < oldlaptop> debootstrap is the kind of thing that you should have a pretty easy time getting a static binary of, more or less by design
08:31 < oldlaptop> (or not a binary, depending on the implementation - do you have... IIRC, perl?)
08:31 < oldlaptop> the voidlinux equivalent is a tarball full of static binaries
08:31 < echelon> perl 5.24 apparently
08:34 < oldlaptop> (I recall incorrectly - POSIX shell, looks like)
08:39 < echelon> alright, it's getting late and i can't even type ':' from the html5 console -_-
08:39 < echelon> will reattempt tomorrow, thanks!
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09:28 < echelon> chroot binary is borked
09:29 < echelon> input/output error..  i think they pulled out the cd before everything could be loaded into ram
09:30 < echelon> i'll have to try the method IcePic mentioned
09:34 < IcePic> echelon: sorry, yes that is what I meant
09:34 < IcePic> zoned out to do some work in between.
09:34 < IcePic> I seemingly made a comment on undeadly about this very procedure: https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20230921073556
09:35 < IcePic> dd installXX.img to sda (ie, the 'whole' disk device node) and reboot into this, and make sure you have a console for when bsd.rd starts up
09:46 < echelon> perfect, thanks :)
09:47 < echelon> so the img file itself contains a partition table?
09:49 < IcePic> no, it contains code-to-run-at-boot-that-loads-bsd.rd and then from that ramdisk image, it can wipe stuff from under its own feet
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10:03 < echelon> awesome
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11:48 < yang3> see, how to continue with the interrupted build? Simply "CD /ust/ports/net/irssi" and again "make" ?
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11:49 < sibiria> that usually works, yes
11:49 < sibiria> in some cases you may need to "make clean" first
11:57 < yang3> OK
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12:25 < IcePic> most of the steps make .dotfiles to indicate patching was done, unpacking is done, configure is done and so forth
12:26 < IcePic> if you edit the patches (add/remove) then you would probably need to clean out the unpacked stuff and unpack it again, to reapply the patches and then move on
12:27 < IcePic> but if one only changes some external thing like bumping "MAKE_JOBS" or cleaning out a filled pobj/ dir, then restarts should be fairly safe 
12:28 -!- gwennelsonuk is now known as GwenNelson
12:29 < GwenNelson> hey all, guess nobody saw my messages here just now
12:30 < IcePic> GwenNelson: nopes, but the net just unsplit recently
12:30 < GwenNelson> anyway, i need to implement a FUSE filesystem that can stand up to high load
12:30 < GwenNelson> anyone got any idea where to find sample code?
12:31 < GwenNelson> need to be async and multithreaded i'd assume
12:32 < GwenNelson> anyone?
12:33 < sibiria> maybe any of the fuse ports? it's a wide question
12:34 < GwenNelson> there's a lot, i just need the simplest possible
12:34 < GwenNelson> i've only implemented FUSE singlethreaded on Linux
12:34 < IcePic> this seems somewhat backwards, fuse seems to be a solution to some problem (like using non-fs's like if they are fs's), but why is FUSE important here if you want a stable fs under high load?
12:35 < GwenNelson> i mean, i could do it in a kernel patch instead, seems more complicated though
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12:36 < IcePic> probably more complicated, but fuse stuff generally isn't known for stability, more like a bandaid to let userspace processes be mounted.
12:37 < GwenNelson> i can at least prototype in FUSE i guess
12:37 < sibiria> incidentally fuse isn't known for high performance either
12:37 < GwenNelson> i also need to get this working quickly, and i've not dabbled in the filesystem code in the kernel
12:38 < IcePic> not saying people should not do all kinds of experiments in fuse, by all means do, but you seem to have started from the other end, requiring high perf.
12:38 < GwenNelson> sibiria: isn't that because it's not async and usually single threaded?
12:38 < RobbieAB> At least in Linux, it also doesn't play nicely with the kernel caching.
12:38 < sibiria> GwenNelson: probably a combination of that and the various translation layers between
12:38 < GwenNelson> though i guess there's context switching overhead
12:39 < GwenNelson> i think i'll prototype in FUSE and then try a kernel patch
12:39 < RobbieAB> I suspect, with no real evidence or experience, that making a high-performance file system will be one problem, making it in fuse will simply add a second problem.
12:39 < GwenNelson> though i'm not too keen to mess with the kernel code
12:40 < sibiria> are you developing your own file system, or aiming at improving openbsd's general disk i/o and/or FFS codebase?
12:40 < GwenNelson> it's actually a weird kind of bind mount with wildcard support
12:40 < GwenNelson> for various purposes
12:42 < GwenNelson> so i can mount /some/path/*/something and have a mounted filesystem full of */something
12:43 < GwenNelson> like for example /home/*/public_html mounted under /var/www/htdocs/users
12:43 < GwenNelson> that's one usagw
12:43 < GwenNelson> usage*
12:44 < sibiria> seems like a typical case for FUSE
12:44 < GwenNelson> right, but i want to take advantage of SMP
12:44 < GwenNelson> getting a lovely ryzen box donated
12:45 < GwenNelson> so, thoughts?
12:46 < sibiria> probably more thoughts on the mailing lists where most of the developers hang out
12:46 < GwenNelson> -tech or -misc?
12:46 < GwenNelson> i had some mild drama with a recent -misc post
12:46 < sibiria> i think tech is more suited for the topic
12:47 < GwenNelson> regarding editing puffy
12:47 < sibiria> the mailing lists giveth and the mailing lists taketh away
12:47 < sibiria> godspeed, gwendolyn
12:47 < GwenNelson> heh, true
12:47 < GwenNelson> my name is just Gwen, thanks
12:47 < RobbieAB> I'm thinking it sounds like auto mount bind mount trickery might avoid the need for fuse altogether.
12:47 < IcePic> GwenNelson: bah, don't mind that one crap reply 
12:48 < IcePic> RobbieAB: amd(8) is nfsv2 only I think, though I can't remember for what reason
12:48 < GwenNelson> thanks IcePic
12:48 < RobbieAB> IcePic: Ah, that would be an issue.
12:49 < GwenNelson> RobbieAB: isn't bind no longer supported?
12:49 < IcePic> RobbieAB: at least it might be slightly suboptimal
12:49 < IcePic> GwenNelson: obsd never had bind mounts
12:49 < GwenNelson> right
12:49 < GwenNelson> i heard it did before 6.0
12:49 < GwenNelson> though back in 3.7 it wasn't there either
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12:50 < GwenNelson> i started with 3.7
12:50 < GwenNelson> i've thought about a stupid NFS hack too
12:50 < RobbieAB> The other thought I had was symlinks, but... They are going to be problematic with the wildcard part. 
12:51 < IcePic> RobbieAB: symlinks wont take you out of a chroot
12:51 < GwenNelson> symlinks inside chroot won't work
12:51 < RobbieAB> That is true. :)
12:51 < GwenNelson> IcePic: snap
12:52 < GwenNelson> i want to keep daemons inside chroot as much as possible
12:52 < GwenNelson> also, is it true that unveil doesn't survive exec?
12:52 < GwenNelson> cos that seems like an obvious hole
12:52 < IcePic> GwenNelson: yes, unveil and pledge are per-process
12:53 < RobbieAB> That said, for me, I would expect my attempt to implement a fuse module to be more likely to go badly wrong than than running my httpd without chroot :)
12:53 < GwenNelson> malicious code just needs to exec to bypass unveil?
12:54 < IcePic> GwenNelson: yes, but there are reasons for it
12:54 < GwenNelson> what are the reasons?
12:54 < GwenNelson> i'm tempted to patch this
12:55 < GwenNelson> it'd make for a container type system
12:55 < IcePic> one is that if you always inherit limits, anything that exec()s needs to allow both its own set of "limits" and all possible child process limits, which means "anything"
12:55 < IcePic> this means that any program that does anything remotely alike system() or exec() is going to have zero limits always
12:55 < GwenNelson> child process should not be able to add more permissions
12:55 < IcePic> else it breaks the child processes
12:56 < GwenNelson> again, containers?
12:56 < IcePic> secondly, if you either disallow exec() in your parent limits, or run in a chroot where there isn't anything malicious to exec, then this "hole" goes away.
12:56 < GwenNelson> like how docker et al work on Linux
12:57 < GwenNelson> my malicious code writes out a binary to disk, chmod +x and exec
12:57 < IcePic> just make /var/empty is "noexec"
12:57 < GwenNelson> but also, if children inherited, could implement containers
12:58 < GwenNelson> i want containers
12:58 < GwenNelson> not vmm, lighter weight
12:58 < IcePic> I think ldd is the only current program that uses inherited limits
12:58 < mischief> i too want a pony
12:58 < IcePic> because it "half-runs" binaries when you ask it what libraries it would link when started
12:58 < GwenNelson> though, vmm with RAM ballooning would be awesome
12:59 < IcePic> ponies and balloons it is!
12:59 < GwenNelson> lol
13:00 < GwenNelson> any reason not to have ballooning other than nobody did it yet?
13:01 < GwenNelson> hmm?
13:02 < IcePic> I think it's somewhat easy to make the vmm end of ballooning, the guest pmap part might be lots trickier
13:02 < GwenNelson> does it work in Xen?
13:02 < GwenNelson> obsd DomU
13:03 < IcePic> I don't think obsd guests did ballooning on Xen as domU either
13:04 < GwenNelson> dammit
13:05 < GwenNelson> my dream is something like QubesOS with obsd
13:05 < GwenNelson> that would rock
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13:11 < IcePic> on the topic of "I would just create a binary and chmod it and run it", it gets quite interesting when you notice linux has memfd so you can take a piece of memory and make it a file descriptor, then you can exec it via fexecve() from that fdesc and you dont need to be able to write to disk at all
13:12 < IcePic> its really like they want to make it easy to circumvent things like chroots and file system strict permissions
13:12 < GwenNelson> i once wrote a game engine for Linux that loads dynamic libs from RAM
13:13 < GwenNelson> the game logic was native code and zipped up with asseta provided via PhysFS
13:13 < GwenNelson> assets*
13:14 < GwenNelson> on other platforms, had to extract the .so or .dylib and use dlopen
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13:16 < GwenNelson> anyway, bbl
13:17 < GwenNelson> gonna hack together this FUSE thing
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14:18 < yang3> I compiled the first package on loongson - curl
14:19 < sibiria> good effort!
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14:20 < sibiria> on the yeeloong or in an emulated machine?
14:21 < yang3> yeeloong$ cat razno1 | curl -F 'clbin=<-' https://clbin.com                                                                                                                                 
14:21 < yang3> https://clbin.com/dza2O
14:21 < yang3> on the yeeloong
14:22 < mischief> how looooong did it take
14:22 < sibiria> :p
14:22 < yang3> i started yesterday it was about 1.5 hour and about 45 min todaya
14:22 < sibiria> yee don't wanna know
14:22 < sibiria> etc.
14:22 < sibiria> curl is an unusually "fat" project for what it does, too, so not entirely surprising
14:23 < sibiria> handful of deps as well
14:23 < yang3> I need to type in the "doas" password repeateadly, when it asks for each dep
14:23 < mischief> jeez. on my desktop make -j32 for curl took 3.5 seconds
14:23 < yang3> mischief hehe
14:24 < sibiria> yang3: if you want you can "su" to the user you want to build as. and in most cases, it's fine to build as root, too
14:24 < Lucas_> I disagree with that comment
14:25 < sibiria> "every port potentially has malware in the build scripts, and everyone is out to get me"
14:26 < pardis> if you build ports as root, it will drop to a user with minimal privileges for the actual build
14:26 < pardis> so it is actually better to build as root, in this particular case
14:27 < Lucas_> I think that only dpb takes care of that
14:27 < sibiria> as an option, which works most of the time, you can also "su -l root; su _pbuild" (or whatever the most common build user is)
14:27 < Lucas_> the usual case, using make, it's prefered to do as a normal user that can doas into _pbuild and _pfetch iirc
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14:36 < Lucas_> pardis: actually, for privilege dropping, you do need to set PORTS_PRIVSEP=Yes
14:37 < pardis> oh, I stand corrected
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14:42 < yang3> getting some failure when building irssi https://clbin.com/mcL4N
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14:47 < sibiria> python as a build dependency is an unfortunate atrocity. gets in the way every now and for other projects
14:50 < kucha> yang3: congrats on curl! going to try smartmontools soon?
14:50 < renaud> some python ports are even impossible due to deps with ==
14:50 < yang3> kucha, thanks, I will try
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14:52 < IcePic> if yang3 makes a large amount of ports, there is an unofficial space where we could put it up for other mips64le users
14:52 < IcePic> https://ftp.eu.openbsd.org/pub/Unofficial/OpenBSD/7.6/packages/
14:53 < yang3> IcePic, I dunno, if I am really qualified...what kind of files would be in there?
14:53 < sibiria> curl is an excellent case for something common a lot of users want
14:54 < IcePic> yang3: I made whatever m88k-packages I could make work, since a lot of things will not build with gcc3, the list of possible packages became a lot shorter 
14:54 < sibiria> irssi, neo/mutt, git, nano, sqlite3 etc.
14:54 < IcePic> took a long while to even get gmake built
14:55 < IcePic> rsync, various archivers like zstd,xz,(un)zip,bzip2
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14:57 < IcePic> the archivers unlock a lot of ports, so you would end up building them early anyhow
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15:01 < yang3> IcePic I can try to build the packages, you suggested, those are usefull
15:01 < yang3> noted 
15:02 < yang3> I see the luna-88k packages in unofficial
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15:10 < yang3> so there are I guess packages, which I compiled https://paste.debian.net/hidden/e2fa9412/
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15:15 < yang3> IcePic, where are the .tgz package files placed?
15:18 < IcePic> they end up under /usr/ports/packages/<arch>/all 
15:18 < IcePic> they end up under /usr/ports/packages/<arch>/ftp <- better, in case of licensing issues 
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15:21 < yang3> oh nice !
15:22 < yang3> my arch is mips64el
15:22 < IcePic> I know, they also lack prebuilt packages, like m88k
15:23 < yang3> right
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15:25 < IcePic> I'm using "they" as if there was a lot of mips64le users losing sleep over not having prebuilt packages. ;)
15:25 < pardis> one day I will boot my Yeeloong again
15:26 < pardis> I think it still has OpenBSD 5.something installed
15:26  * IcePic laughs in mips64be..
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15:27 < IcePic> relevant: http://c66.it.su.se:8080/obsd/big-endians.jpg
15:28 < yang3> IcePic are oyu building on the luna or in qemu ?
15:28 < pardis> I much prefer plan9's name for its little-endian MIPS port (spim)
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15:28 < IcePic> yang3: on the "nono" m88k emulator. But I think I should try gxemul again, if mp works better on it, since it helps pkg building I guess
15:29 < yang3> Luna88k is extremely rare machine
15:29 < yang3> hard-to-find
15:30 < sibiria> yeelongs too kinda, probably haven't been made for 10 years and i don't think they ever sold many to begin with
15:30 < IcePic> I also agree with obsds policy of not using emulators for official package/install-set building, since any supported platform should really be able to built its own software, but I wanted to see how much effort there would be to make a dpb cluster for m88k. 
15:31 < IcePic> now, I didn't manage to make amd64-box-runs-dpb-for-lunam88kbuilders so that list is sort-of manually selected by me, depending on what could be built.
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15:31 < anexit> Is there a way to have mutt download emails from... imap?
15:32 < IcePic> anexit: sure is
15:32 < IcePic> set spoolfile=imap://hostname.of.imap.host:143 
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15:32 < anexit> I want to store the emails locally to train spamassassin
15:33 < IcePic> set spoolfile=imap://hostname.of.imap.host:143/INBOX even
15:33 < yang3> anexit yes
15:33 < IcePic> imaps:// ... :993 also works of course for TLS'd imap
15:33 < yang3> mutt is another package I'll try to compile
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15:35 < IcePic> I read some of my personal emails on one of my octeon boxes with mutt
15:35 < anexit> Thanks!
15:36 < IcePic> for some reason I also have "set folder imap://....:143" in my muttrc
15:36 < anexit> we ended up getting hammered with spam and since we wont pay for 365 email filter we have a openbsd box with sa/amavisd-new setup.. trying to make a auto-learn with spam@domain.com and notspam@domain.com
15:36 < sibiria> 143 is STARTTLS (evil) for imap
15:36 < sibiria> 993 implicit TLS
15:37 < yang3> IcePic, how do you upload packages to "unofficial" mirror ?
15:37 < anexit> Maybe easier to setup dovecot and just have people email those users there.
15:37 < IcePic> yang3: easy, its my machine. ;)
15:37 < yang3> ahhh :)
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15:40 < kucha> anexit: if you want to download mails via imap into a local maildir, something like isync/mbsync maybe come in handy
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15:43 < IcePic> yeah, anything like the old fetchmail program would do it
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15:45 < anexit> riddle me this...
15:46 < anexit> I sent an email to spam@domain.com and it delivered somewhere
15:46 < anexit> postfix virtual spam@domain.com spam
15:46 < anexit> there is a spam user on this openbsd system
15:46 < anexit> lol
15:47 < anexit> ah
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15:47 < anexit> its in /var/mail/user
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15:49 < lts> The same mind that chose spam@domain.com as an example address to test something has chosen it earlier as an example address to test something
15:49 < anexit> :D
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15:49 < anexit> well no point in wasting money with microsoft when it already exists
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16:01 < echelon> IcePic: success! :)
16:01 < echelon> thanks for the suggestion
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16:06 < IcePic> echelon: \o/
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16:08 < oldlaptop> echelon: ah - I thought you didn't have a console(?)
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16:09 < echelon> oldlaptop: a very flakey html5 one, i was shit out of luck on the supermicro java kvm
16:09 < echelon> the html5 kvm thing didn't have a way to mount an iso though
16:10 < oldlaptop> aaaaaah
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16:10 < oldlaptop> yeah, the whole qemu nonsense only makes sense if you don't have a workable console :P
16:10 < echelon> gotcha :)
16:11 < oldlaptop> though worth knowing about the curses output mode either way, if you hadn't seen that
16:11 < oldlaptop> darn handy sometimes
16:11 < echelon> this way i didn't have to remap the virtual disk devices or network interface, which qemu would have likely caused an issue for
16:11 < lts> The HTML5 console can mount an ISO if you buy a $27 license
16:11 < echelon> yeah
16:12 < echelon> i don't recall any such offer
16:12 < sibiria> does it also come with an additional $1.99 "handling fee" each time you want to mount (or eject) an ISO?
16:12 < oldlaptop> DUIDs should be stable if the disk moves from qemu-fake controller to a real one, but you'd definitely have to be careful about network interface names
16:13 < oldlaptop> sibiria: Those highly-trained CD-burning-and-swapping monkeys don't work free
16:13 < sibiria> mounting/ejecting an ISO incurs wear'n'tear on the function library, and replacing the .so library file with a fresh one comes at a cost
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16:14 < lts> https://store.supermicro.com/us_en/out-of-band-sft-oob-lic.html no handling fees per mount but don't give them ideas
16:15 < oldlaptop> oh, don't get me started - the way firefox is these days I go through four or five gettimeofdays() a month
16:15 < oldlaptop> lts: :|
16:15 < sibiria> lts: i'm sure the idea has already been discussed among the product team
16:15 < sibiria> they're like lawyers. inherently evil
16:16 < lts> This is true
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16:18 < lts> I already paid you $998 for the motherboard, why couldn't you just charge a dollar more from everyone and offer the full functionality for everyone for more money
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16:30 < oldlaptop> perhaps they have reason to think most customers don't want it
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16:32 < oldlaptop> (or perhaps someone is a bit foolish and/or evil (I hope foolish) and thinks splitting the price everyone is going to end up paying up across multiple "items" will fool enough of the buyers enough of the time)
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16:32 < IcePic> lts: we have some SM boxes, and those are like "html5 doesnt get to mount jack-shit, but you can point to a samba-mount for ISO" and then "java console" has ISO mount over some udp protocol
16:33 < oldlaptop> What could possibly go wrong?
16:33 < IcePic> the difference being the java mount is from my machine, whereas having a samba box on the ipmi networks feels kind of icky
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17:08 < yang3> Is there an OLPC / OpenBSD port ?
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17:18 < lts> One Laptop Per Child?
17:19 < thrig> or maybe Ontario Livestock and Poultry Council
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17:31 < IcePic> wasn't the olpc laptops quite ordinary x86s?
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17:31 < IcePic> apart from that you could spin a lever to power them and that they had docs and code for most all parts
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18:05 < oldlaptop> "port" could refer to their special software, I guess?
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18:07 < oldlaptop> (which I don't see ports for)
18:07 < Manis> IcePic: yes it's x86 but it uses Open Firmware.
18:07 < oldlaptop> ?!
18:07 < oldlaptop> *that* is interesting
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18:10 < IcePic> we like..
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18:51 < finkfox> i'm using an sshd instance on my local machine A as a proxy server. when connecting to external sshd instance B, in my ssh config B has "ProxyJump A". the connection works fine, on the first connetion it prompts me for passphrase of private key for B. However, after disconneting, and on subsequent connections, it no longer asks for the passphrase, simply allows the connection to B. Is the private key cached? how and where, and how can I disable that?
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18:52 < sibiria> is it perhaps the ssh-agent?
18:52 < finkfox> and no, i'm not using ssh-agent, it's disabled.
18:52 < finkfox> even restarting local sshd A won't reset the "cached" connection
18:53 < finkfox> this feels rather unsafe and I'm pretty puzzled how to resolve
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18:56 < finkfox> in ps aux I do see two instances of "ssh-session". even killing those doesn't help.
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19:00 < Lucas_> finkfox: by any chance, do you ControlMaster or ControlPath set in your ssh config?
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19:07 < finkfox> Lucas_: nope its disabled.
19:08 < finkfox> maybe its tmux related?
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19:19 < Lucas_> are you running under a DE? Gnome or KDE?
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19:19 < Lucas_> actually
19:20 < Lucas_> can you share an `ssh -v B` and `env` (from the local)?
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19:23 < finkfox> Lucas_: no DE
19:23 < finkfox> will assemble the requested info.
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19:39 < finkfox> Lucas_: output of `ssh -v B` anonymized: https://clbin.com/Er1O4
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19:43 < finkfox> Lucas_: output of `env` anonymized: https://clbin.com/6pnsC
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20:01 < finkfox> I believe even rebooting the machine will keep the connection cached at times.
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20:02 < finkfox> `ssh B` outside brings no solution.
20:02 < finkfox> (outside tmux)
20:02 < finkfox> it would be interesting to hear if other's can reproduce the behaviour.
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20:06 < Lucas_> what's the "killed by signal 1" at the bottom?
20:07 < finkfox> I believe I quit the session
20:07 < finkfox> ?
20:08 < Lucas_> no, that doesn't make sense
20:08 < Lucas_> a clean exit is different
20:10 < thrig> flawless victory. status-0 wins!
20:11 < finkfox> Lucas_: let me check
20:11 < finkfox> Lucas_: here also the ssh config https://clbin.com/vuTpL
20:13 < finkfox> Lucas_: I don't know where the "signal 1" stems from, but it does log this indeed.
20:13 < finkfox> Lucas_: I'm quitting the session with "exit" command.
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20:15 < finkfox> Lucas_: here the end of the log with "ssh -vv B" https://clbin.com/3fVYw
20:15 < Lucas_> oh, nvm. That's the exit you get while using ProxyJump.
20:16 -!- MrGoblins [~MrGoblins@201.103.90.191] has joined #openbsd
20:17 < finkfox> so just wondering, are my concerns justified? or am I thinking/doing something obvious wrongly here?
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20:18 < Lucas_> the behaviour you describe doesn't make sense
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20:18 < Lucas_> as in, it shouldn't be happening
20:18 < Bradipo> What are you trying to do?  I missed part of the conversation...
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20:20 < finkfox> ssh connecting to remote B via local sshd proxy A. first connection asks for passphrase, subsequent connections seem to be cached. without ssh-agent or multiplexing ssh settings.
20:20 < finkfox> Bradipo: I would like my private key / sessions not to be cached. 
20:21 < Bradipo> And the ssh key isn't installed on B?
20:21 < finkfox> private public key setup is setup correctly with B and works.
20:22 < Bradipo> So what's the actual problem?
20:22 < Bradipo> Are you saying that you don't want the passphrase cached for your SSH key?
20:22 < finkfox> read 4 lines above
20:22 < Bradipo> Yeah, those 4 lines above aren't properly descriptive of the problem.
20:22 < Bradipo> SSH doesn't "cache connections" as far as I'm aware.
20:23 < finkfox> ok which part do you not understand? no I do not want my private key (or session) to be cached.
20:23 < finkfox> Bradipo: ok whatever the mechanism, I am not asked for the passphrase on subsequent connections.
20:23 < finkfox> that feels insecure.
20:23 < Bradipo> So you're saying that if you SSH from X to B using proxy A, logout, then do the same, you are not prompted for a passphrase?
20:24 < Lucas_> exactly
20:24 < Bradipo> And this is on OpenBSD?
20:24 < finkfox> right, where X is my local machine, and A is sshd proxy on my localmachine.
20:24 < finkfox> 7.6
20:24 < Bradipo> X or console?
20:24 < finkfox> X
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20:24 < Bradipo> So you login to X.  You have a passphrase on your system.  Do you hit cancel when you are prompted to enter the passphrase?
20:24 < finkfox> I can try the same thing outside of X if that helps anything.
20:25 < Bradipo> On OpenBSD, if you have SSH keys in standard locations, it will ask you for the passphrase when you first login.
20:25 < Bradipo> Are you skipping that or do you enter the passphrase?
20:25 < finkfox> Bradipo: you are misunderstanding.
20:25 < Bradipo> Sorry, I should have chosen something other than X.
20:25 < Bradipo> I mean xenodm.
20:25 < finkfox> i'm not asked for passphrased when starting X. I disabled that part.
20:25 < Bradipo> When you login to xenodm, you are prompted for a passphrase.
20:25 < Bradipo> How did you disable it?
20:26 < finkfox> passphrase is asked when I initiate ssh connection like "ssh B"
20:26 < Bradipo> How did you disable the passphrase prompt that happens when you login to xenodm?
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20:27 < uwharrie> why are you using localhost as a ProxyJump? are there any other configs attached to that directive?
20:28 < Bradipo> That's also a possibility, but I want to resolve the most obvious possibility which is that it is actually caching.
20:29 < Bradipo> finkfox: How did you disable the passphrase prompt when you login to xenodm?
20:29 < finkfox> Bradipo: sorry, I did not disable the passphrase prompt in X, I believe the part in /etc/X11/xenodm/Xsession ... but I'm not asked passphrase when starting my X
20:29 < finkfox> Bradipo: also, I don't have ssh-agent running.
20:29 < Bradipo> Well, ssh-agent will run automatically when you login.
20:29 < Bradipo> What did you do to prevent ssh-agent from running?
20:29 < Bradipo> Unless your key is named differently than the standard names.
20:30 < Lucas_> it is
20:30 < Bradipo> Ahh, the SSH key is not one of the standard names?
20:30 < Lucas_> at least according to the _redacted_ configs
20:30 < Lucas_> and outputs
20:30 < Lucas_> finkfox: can you share the `ssh -v B` when you *are not* requested for a passphrase?
20:30 < Lucas_> bbl
20:30 < finkfox> Bradipo: none of my key is called "id_rsa id_ecdsa id_ecdsa_sk id_ed25519 id_ed25519_sk id_dsa"
20:31 < Bradipo> finkfox: What WM or DE are you running?
20:31 < Bradipo> Does it have it's own SSH agent?
20:31 < Bradipo> So you may not be using the default ssh-agent that OpenBSD starts if you have well-known keys, but we haven't ruled out other agents.
20:31 < finkfox> Lucas_: that one that I shared above is the "not requested passphrase" version
20:31 < finkfox> Bradipo: dwm
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20:32 < Bradipo> ssh -v B as mentioned above would be helpful.
20:33 < finkfox> ok then I need to reboot machine and hope that passphrase is no longer "remembered". But I think it actually will be.
20:34 < finkfox> will be back shortly. eager to solve this mystery. thank you for your help and patience.
20:35 < Bradipo> Do you get prompted for a password when using proxy A?
20:36 < Bradipo> Because I just tried: ssh -J proxy -i ~/.ssh/id_test B
20:36 < Bradipo> And I was first prompted for the password to proxy, and then I was prompted for the passphrase for id_test.
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20:37 < Bradipo> I logged out and repeated, and it worked again as expected.  I had to enter a password and then the passphrase.  No caching.
20:37 < finkfox> my local proxy A uses private key with empty passphrase.
20:37 < finkfox> could that be the problem?
20:38 -!- khrbtxyz [~khrbtxyz@user/khrbt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20:38 < Bradipo> Yes.
20:38 < finkfox> Bradipo: if you could try that?
20:38 < Bradipo> But it won't allow you to login to B without the passphrase to your key.
20:38 < Bradipo> Are you sure you didn't accidentally install the private key with no passphrase on B?
20:39 < finkfox> Well, like I said, only the first time it asks me for B passphrase. When I exit and reconnect to B connection succeeds without passphrase prompt.
20:39 < finkfox> Bradipo: absolutely.
20:39 < finkfox> but I will check again to make sure.
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20:40 < Bradipo> I can try the key on my proxy as you described.
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20:40 < uwharrie> `ssh-add -l` output would be useful, but of note is that the client machine and A are one in the same in this scenario
20:40 < Bradipo> Is the private key with no passphrase a standard named key?
20:40 < Bradipo> Or is it also a different name?
20:41 < Bradipo> Right, client and A are the same.  Not sure why that would matter unless there is some strange config as you suggest.
20:41 < finkfox> Bradipo: not a standard named key
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20:41 < finkfox> I check the key on B, and its the one with a passphrase.
20:43 < finkfox> Bradipo: can you reproduce the issue?
20:43 < Bradipo> Not yet.
20:43 < Bradipo> I put a standard key id_ed25519.pub on my proxy A (a remote system not localhost), and when I login to B, I am not prompted for A any longer, but I always get prompted for the passphrase for the key on B.
20:44 < Bradipo> So, if it's not a standard name, what permits SSH to know about the private key that you're using for the proxy A?
20:44 < Bradipo> SSH will not use keys that it doesn't know about.
20:45 < Bradipo> Are you sure that the private key with no passphrase is what's installed on A?
20:45 < finkfox> yes certainly.
20:45 < yang3> I have a problem at "Lemote systems final steps:" setting up auto-boot inside PMON. https://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/7.6/loongson/INSTALL.loongson    and    https://paste.debian.net/hidden/62dcf33c/
20:45 < finkfox> please let me reboot now to check if passphrase gets forgotten.
20:45 < finkfox> brb
20:46 -!- finkfox [~finkfox@user/finkfox] has quit [Quit: finkfox]
20:47 < Bradipo> I suppose I'm not on 7.6 and it's possible that 7.6 has some strange bug or new feature.
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20:49  * finkfox re
20:49 < finkfox> so after rebooting, i'm still not asked for passphrase. 
20:49 < Bradipo> On the first attempt, or the second?
20:49 < finkfox> first
20:50 < Bradipo> How are you telling ssh which key to use?
20:50 < finkfox> I could setup another user with its own key, and see if I can reproduce.
20:50 < Bradipo> Well, I think we should seek to understand what you're doing now.
20:50 < finkfox> it's in ~/.ssh/config (shared above)
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20:50 < Bradipo> Oh, I didn't see the config, let me look.
20:51 < Bradipo> Interesting.
20:52 < Bradipo> I didn't know ssh_config had HostName directive.
20:52 < finkfox> so to be certain, I believe I should try to reproduce the problem with another user.
20:52 < finkfox> does that make sense?
20:52 < Bradipo> Well, you could try another user I suppose.
20:52 < finkfox> ok, let's see what happens.
20:52 < finkfox> gonna take a minute
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20:55 < Bradipo> Does ssh_config support configurations that are not part of the Host declaration?
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20:55 < Bradipo> You have TCPKeepAlive and HashKnownHosts at the top of the config but not part of any Host or other section.
20:57 < brynet> yang3: If you're not dual-booting Linux, there's instructions further down in that section to avoid the boot menu.
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20:58 < finkfox> Bradipo: you mean I should put it undert "Host *"?
20:58 < Bradipo> finkfox: Also, what's the HostName parameter?  I don't see it documented in the man page for ssh_config
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20:59 < uwharrie> could disabling TCPKeepAlive allow the tunnel to persist across invocations? what happens if your config is nothing but `Host` `HostName` `IdentifyFile` and `User` directives?
20:59 < Bradipo> Well, based upon my understanding (which could be wrong), ssh_config configuration is separated into various Host sections.
20:59 < Bradipo> Does ssh_config allow parameters outside of a Host specification?
20:59 < finkfox> I'm not sure
21:00 < Bradipo> Well, it's not documented that way as far as I can tell.
21:00 < Bradipo> Also, the order of your things may be wrong.
21:00 < Bradipo> See https://man.openbsd.org/ssh_config
21:00 < Bradipo> Look at the paragraph beginning "Since the first obtained"
21:01 < uwharrie> https://man.openbsd.org/ssh_config#Hostname
21:03 < finkfox> Bradipo: I'm happy to restructure my ssh_config
21:04 < finkfox> I moved the global options under "Host *" and moved "Host *" to the bottom.
21:04 < finkfox> not that it solved the problem
21:04 < Bradipo> I shouldn't think that disabling TCPKeepAlive would cause this.
21:06 < Bradipo> I configured my ~/.ssh/config to be identical to yours and I cannot reproduce it.
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21:07 < uwharrie> what settings are in _proxyuser's .ssh/config? what settings are in localhost and B's ssh_ & sshd_config?
21:07 < Bradipo> Do we have output from `ssh -v B` yet?
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21:09 < Bradipo> Actually, I take it back, my system that I was testing on is 7.6.
21:09 < Bradipo> So I'm confused about this HostName parameter... is it undocumented?
21:09 < uwharrie> https://man.openbsd.org/ssh_config#Hostname
21:10 < Bradipo> Ahh, it's "Hostname" not "HostName".
21:11 < finkfox> Bradipo: _proxyuser doesn't have ~/.ssh/config
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21:13 < Bradipo> What about `ssh -v B` output?
21:13 < Bradipo> And also `ssh-add -l` ?
21:14 < Bradipo> And also `ps auxw | grep [a]gent` ?
21:14 < thrig> pgrep agent
21:15 < Bradipo> Yeah, but that only gives me the PID. :-)
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21:19 < finkfox> Bradipo: `ssh -v B` was shared earlier, though only the version where passphrase was remembered. I simply can't get my machine to forget the passphrase.
21:19 < finkfox> `pgrep agent` returns nothing
21:20 < Bradipo> The only ssh -v output that I see is the "tail end" of it.
21:20 < Bradipo> I'm still not convinced that the passphrase is being "remembered".
21:20 -!- format_c [~format_c@2a02:b98:f181:4094:f550:7488:2d5:5ffa] has quit [Quit: format_c]
21:21 < finkfox> ahh. is there away to look into the history? I don't have history here and already removed the file (it was stored in tmp and lost upon reboot :(
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21:21 < finkfox> i'm still working on setting up another user.
21:21 < Bradipo> Can't you just do `ssh -v B` now and put up more output on clbin.com?
21:22 < Bradipo> I don't know if there is any log of this channel.  There probably is somewhere.
21:23 < finkfox> Bradipo: I could. but that involves anonymizing the log, which is a bit of work.
21:23 < yang3> brynet i want the boot menu in PMON to be visible, I have this config now (removed the tabbed-space) https://paste.debian.net/1338260/    I did what the manual says, except I did not do PMON> set bsd /bsd
21:23 < finkfox> Lucas_: are you still around, could you maybe please get the link with the ssh log from earlier for us?
21:24 < finkfox> Bradipo: please let me setup other user first.
21:26 < Bradipo> Why do you have "PubkeyAuthentication host-bound" in your config?
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21:30 < finkfox> I believe I was playing with the settings trying to make security more tight.
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21:30 < finkfox> ok with the other user, the passphrase does not seem to be cached!
21:30 < Bradipo> Yeah, I assumed this would be the case.
21:31 < yang3> IcePic smartmontools package made https://paste.debian.net/plainh/37b2d906
21:31 < finkfox> so it's most likely something with my normal user environment. but what?
21:31 < Bradipo> Well, if there is no ssh-agent running that's pretty surprising.
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21:32 < Bradipo> Is there perhaps an ssh-agent running on the proxy (not that this should matter).
21:32 < finkfox> on the proxy? that is the local machine. ps aux | grep agent ... nothing
21:33 < Bradipo> Oh right.
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21:33 < finkfox> could compare the two different "ssh -v B" logs now.
21:34 < Bradipo> Yeah, that might be helpful.
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21:44 < finkfox> Bradipo: it may sound strange but the ssh logs look identical, i.e. 'ssh -v B'
21:44 < finkfox> should I set up a new keypair for my normal user?
21:44 < yang3> This is the smartctl output, I guess the dirve is in a good shape? (if someone knows how to read those flags) https://paste.debian.net/hidden/3875a782/
21:45 < Bradipo> finkfox: If you start making changes, test them one at a time.
21:45 < Bradipo> Start by generating a new SSH key to be used with B.
21:46 < Bradipo> Make sure it has a *different* passphrase than everything else.
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21:47 < finkfox> Bradipo: or what would you do in such a case?
21:47 < finkfox> I'm so confused.
21:47 < Bradipo> Well, we're kind of communicating about the problem vicariously.
21:48 < Bradipo> What I would do is start looking at `ssh -vv B` and if that doesn't reveal enough information, `ssh -vvv B`
21:48 < Bradipo> Also, look to see if you have other SSH connections before and after you login and logout.
21:48 < Bradipo> e.g. ps auxw | grep [s]sh
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21:49 < finkfox> I removed my "normal user" from B's authorized keys. Now I'm getting permission denied. so at least that works.
21:49 < Bradipo> Now, put in a new key in it's place that has a passphrase that is *different* from any other password/passphrase.
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21:54 < IcePic> yang3: you only need to "make package", otherwise each package will eat space unpacked for being installed under /usr/local also
21:59 < finkfox> Bradipo: so now with a new key "the normal user" is reliably prompted for passphrase.
21:59 < finkfox> I also compared "ssh -vvv B" output for "prompted" and "not prompted" case. they look symetric.
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21:59 < finkfox> I'm puzzled.
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22:00 < finkfox> so the problem might be fixed, but the cause is not understood. doesn't feel satisfying yet.
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22:01 < finkfox> is this called a "ghost bug"?
22:02 < mischief> yang3: Raw_Read_Error_Rate and Seek_Error_Rate and Hardware_ECC_Recovered being nonzero is probably not good
22:02 < mischief> if you haven't already, you should trigger the short self test
22:03 < yang3> i have some spare drives...this one was shaked a lot during the transport...if it fails I'll replace it
22:03 < uwharrie> I'd also drop all the random knobs you twisted in the name of security tightening in the event that they don't do what you think they do
22:03 < yang3> mischief https://paste.debian.net/1338267/
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22:09 < finkfox> ok I checked. it turns out the old ssh key did not have a passphrase. though, I never ever unset the passphrase. how can this be?
22:09 < mischief> yang3: well, it will presumably work until it doesn't :-) make some backups.
22:10 < yang3> mischief, sure, , but so far it's only a test/demo machine
22:10 < finkfox> Bradipo, Lucas_  et al: thank you for your assistance
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22:18 < morpho> is there a good book recomendation for C programming?
22:19 -!- accelerat0r [~user@user/accelerat0r] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:19 < morpho> im up to the point where I am trying to implement like generic containers and stuff and just want to learn more
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22:21 < Bradipo> finkfox: In other words it wasn't caching anything.  So what passphrase was it prompting for?
22:22 < Bradipo> If the key had none, were you just getting a password prompt for proxy A?
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22:27 < finkfox> Bradipo: it is super strange. I'm very confused myself. But all I can say for certain at this point is that the key did not have a passphrase like it used to.
22:27 < Bradipo> Did it ever have one? :-)
22:27 < Bradipo> What's the timestamp on the private key?
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22:28 < finkfox> Feb 11 2024. that is the same for all my other "old" keys.
22:29 < finkfox> that still have a passphrase.
22:29 < finkfox> does removing a passphrase from a key change the date?
22:29 < Bradipo> Yes.
22:29 < Bradipo> What's the first line of your key?
22:30 < finkfox> so it's awkward. then the change must have happend before that date. I think I switched to another laptop on that date.
22:30 < finkfox> Bradipo: -----BEGIN OPENSSH PRIVATE KEY-----
22:30 < Bradipo> Ok, so it's using the new key format.
22:31 < Bradipo> But now everything that you said above still is not explained.
22:32 < Bradipo> This explains why you were able to login without a passphrase.  It does not explain why it prompted you for a passphrase.
22:32 < Bradipo> Unless you were just mistaken about it.
22:33 < finkfox> I wouldn't outrule that. Though the whole case is still strange. Why would I remove a passphrase from my private key?
22:33 < Bradipo> I find it unlikely that you removed a passphrase.
22:33 < finkfox> I wouldn't even know how (i'd have to look it up in the man page)
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22:33 < Bradipo> It's more likely that it never had one to begin with.
22:34 < finkfox> I doubt that. I keep my passphrases in a password store. And that one certainly had one.
22:34 < finkfox> well well. human error is of very likely.
22:34 < Bradipo> Well, you did mention that you changed laptops...
22:34 < finkfox> here is maybe what happened:
22:35 < Bradipo> Perhaps when you changed it, you were in a hurry and forgot to generate a key with a passphrase and thought your use of that key was "temporary".
22:35 < Bradipo> Then time passed, and you completely forgot to replace it with one that did have a passphrase.
22:36 < finkfox> i created passphrase in password store. then copied it to create ssh key. though my password store has time limit and I was to slow and ended up with an empty passphrase? wicked.
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22:36 < finkfox> (password store erased clipboard after x seconds)
22:37 < Bradipo> And you didn't pay attention to the prompts.
22:37 < finkfox> I need to find a more reliable way for creating safe ssh keys with passphrases.
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22:39 < uwharrie> hardware key?
22:39 < Bradipo> finkfox: First thing, don't copy/paste a passphrase from somewhere else.  Type it in.
22:39 < Bradipo> Then you're certain that it exists.
22:40 < Bradipo> But it should have warned you that you had an empty passphrase.
22:40 < finkfox> Bradipo: on the other hand, IÃÃÃ'm very confidethat I had cases where I wanted to ssh and was prompted for passphrase.
22:41 < finkfox> Bradipo: right. and i certainly would have not overread that warning message. but who knows.
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22:41 < Bradipo> 'Tis a pity that there doesn't exist an SSH config option that says "PermitEmptyPassphrase" for use when generating a key.
22:41 < finkfox> if it was an attack (very hypothetical), the attacker could intercept the passphrase and use it to remove the passphrase?
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22:42 < Bradipo> No, I'm talking about avoiding human error like this.
22:42 < Bradipo> Not avoiding attackers.
22:42 < finkfox> Agreed.
22:42 < uwharrie> copious note and session recording are common practice to prevent this "do things at random, get confused when they break" type scenario
22:43 < Bradipo> In this case the SSH key was generated months ago.  But what I'm confused about is... why did it take so long to notice?
22:43 < Bradipo> Why did it take months to notice that everytime you use that SSH key it did *not* prompt you for a passphrase?
22:43 < finkfox> maybe more like years. it was copied from the old machine.
22:43 < finkfox> I need to renew all my keys.
22:43 < finkfox> and check them
22:44 < uwharrie> you shouldn't share keys between machines
22:44 < Bradipo> And by "share keys" he means "private keys".
22:44 < Bradipo> It's usually best, when you get a new system, to generate new keys specific for that system.
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22:45 < finkfox> good point. 
22:46 < finkfox> I guess it was also the feat of loosing access to my servers.
22:46 < Bradipo> It's certainly more convenient to use the old keys because they all work.
22:46 < finkfox> (fear)
22:47 < finkfox> I need to rethink my key management.
22:47 < finkfox> how often do you all renew your keys (if ever?)
22:47 < Bradipo> I "renew" them when I replace my system.
22:47 < Lucas_> Bradipo: for the record, you can have global directives, under no Host
22:47 < Lucas_> in ssh_config
22:47 < Bradipo> Lucas_: I'm trying to see where in the man page it says as much.
22:48 < Bradipo> I did look through it and the first major paragraph says "configuration files contain sections separated by Host specifications"
22:49 < Bradipo> It doesn't say anything about a global section or allowing parameters outside of Host sections.  But clearly it does work.
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22:50 < uwharrie> you have to piece 2 other statements together "The file contains keyword-argument pairs, one per line." "Host Restricts the following declarations (up to the next Host or Match keyword) to be only for those hosts that match one of the patterns given after the keyword."
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22:50 < Bradipo> Yeah.
22:50 < Bradipo> I think I was just coming to that same realization.
22:51 < Bradipo> It does mention using * as a Host pattern to "provide global defaults".
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22:51 < Bradipo> But obviously if there is no Host section at all, then those declarations are also "global".
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--- Log closed Thu Dec 05 00:00:34 2024