--- Log opened Sat Dec 07 00:00:37 2024
00:01 < gnucode> dfdx: I just had chatGPT generate a fake public announcement of Kim Jung Un's death.  It was hilarious!
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02:14 < gnucode> I also really like the OpenBSD tty font.  Looks super awesome!
02:14 < gnucode> https://github.com/fcambus/spleen
02:22 < ssm_> gnucode: you can get it in your X session as well with the fonts/spleen package
02:22 < gnucode> thanks!
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05:11 < dfdx> Small details make me love OpenBSD. For example, when I `ls -a /`, I don't see the "." and ".." entries, which are present in (Gentoo) linux. 
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05:25 < thrig> some OS set various wacky aliases by default
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05:48 < ssm_> dfdx: my `ls -a /` command returns . and .., what openbsd are you running?
05:48 < ssm_> you sure you didn't use ls -A?
05:49 < ssm_> I can even stat them
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06:08 < TommyC> Sounds like he may be running it as root.
06:08 < TommyC> ls -A is set if you are, as a regular user it's not.
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08:17 < quinq> That would be a bug if ls -a wouldn't show . and ..
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08:17 < quinq> But it does
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08:59 < TommyC> quinq: It isn't. It's a feature.
09:00 < TommyC> (referring to it not showing up for the root user, it works for normal users)
09:02 < quinq> It would definitely be :)
09:02 < quinq> But that's not the case anyway
09:02 < TommyC> wat
09:03 < IcePic> obsd ls shows . and .. with -a, if you have an ls that doesn't show . and .. with -a (root or not), then it is not /bin/ls you are running
09:04 < quinq> You might be using a shell that hijacks ls with a buggy builtin
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09:08 < TommyC> No that's not it. I misread.
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09:08 < TommyC> My bad. :3
09:10 < quinq> :>
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11:57 < istevenmon> hi everyone, I'm trying to overcome a routing problem in my network due to lack of support in my wireless router and isp router to configure static routes. My idea is to have my openbsd box as default gateway for my network but redirect all traffic that is not destined to the static routes to the isp router to get out to the internet. do you guys
11:57 < istevenmon> think this is even possible?
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12:41 < cgnarne> i think so, yes
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13:56 < fturco> hello. i'm running openbsd 7.6 on a desktop computer which doesn't require any proprietary firmware. can i remove the /lib/firmware directory? can i rebuild openbsd without including that directory?
13:58 < Lucas_> there is no /lib/firmware
13:58 < Lucas_> there is /etc/firmware, which includes non-proprietary firmware
13:58 < thrig> you can delete whatever you want
13:58 < Lucas_> also I'm super curious about your system without propietary firmware. Can you share your dmesg?
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14:02 < fturco> Lucas_: https://bpa.st/raw/2M4A
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14:04 < fturco> is it possible to add /etc/firmware to the SKIPDIR variable in mk.conf? i never tried rebuilding openbsd yet
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14:05 < cgnarne> fturco: i'd leave that alone. removing that dir may break shit in the future
14:07 < fturco> having unneeded proprietary firmware on my openbsd system makes me feel bad
14:07 < fturco> i may have to take the chance to break things
14:08 < fturco> before installing openbsd, i had a fully-customized gentoo install with linux-libre and no firmware at all, and it worked pretty well
14:11 < cgnarne> your stuff is full of proprietary shit. nothing you can do about it
14:11 < thrig> again, you can delete whatever you want (supporting such a broken system may be fun)
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14:11 < fturco> i would also add fw-update to SKIPDIR if possible
14:12 < fturco> thrig: non-default != broken in my opinion
14:12 < cgnarne> nobody is going to stop you, mate
14:13 < thrig> nobody cares about your opinion, they do care about their time being wasted when your bug report is due to something wacky you've done to the system
14:15 < fturco> i wouldn't use computers if i hadn't the possibility of fully customizing them to make them suit my preferences; a mass produced software that cannot be customized in any way and has defaults which i don't like is not attractive to me
14:16 < fturco> i come from 20-years of gentoo linux
14:16 < Lucas_> you don't have any network?
14:16 < fturco> i stopped using it because gentoo is bloated and not customizable enough
14:16 < fturco> Lucas_: i use ethernet
14:17 < cgnarne> probably firmware in that :(
14:17 < Lucas_> I can't see any network interface in dmesg
14:17 < fturco> Lucas_: it should be "em0" if i remember correctly
14:18 < cgnarne> your ssd? firmware :( 
14:18 < cgnarne> BIOS? firmware :(
14:18 < cgnarne> graphics card? :(
14:19 < fturco> cgnarne: i don't care about those. i don't want proprietary firmware on my hard disk drive, especially if i don't need it
14:19 < Lucas_> I'm p sure you'll break inteldrm if you remove stuff from /etc/firmware
14:20 < Lucas_> but hey, there's an easy way
14:20 < Lucas_> go ahead and remove it
14:20 < fturco> i always remove two firmware packages that fw-update unfortunately installs every time i upgrade openbsd
14:20 < Lucas_> and see for yourself if it works or not
14:21 < Lucas_> I highly suggest you don't post into the ML asking support afterwards, as you'll receive the biggest pile of shit you'll ever see in response
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14:21 < Lucas_> the usual saying is "you break it, you get to keep the pieces"
14:21 < fturco> i know. i have been browsing openbsd mailing list archives for months already
14:22 < fturco> frankly i have been having a hard time accepting the philosophy behind such decisions 
14:22 < Lucas_> I think it's a reasonable stance, taking into consideration
14:22 < Lucas_> 1. the bad quality of reports
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14:22 < Lucas_> 2. the amount of people in the project
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14:23 < Lucas_> adding to that, Linux is the land of freedom. OpenBSD is something else.
14:24 < cgnarne> there is proprietary firmware IN your hard disk drive. this is a meaningless exercise.
14:24 < fturco> linux is getting worse with each passing year unfortunately. i can't stand it anymore. i'm desperately looking for better operating systems
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14:26 < RobbieAB> fturco: I think I understand what you want, and "no proprietary firmware" isn't really accurate.
14:26 < Lucas_> better under what measure?
14:27 < RobbieAB> "No runtime loadable proprietary firmware" I think would more accurately reflect your desire?
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14:27 < fturco> Lucas_: more customizable, less bloated, more intolerant towards proprietary software
14:28 < fturco> RobbieAB: i guess so
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14:29 < Lucas_> fturco: "more customizable". Then OpenBSD isn't for you.
14:30 < fturco> ok
14:30 < Lucas_> same for "more intolerant towards propietary software", but that's more of an issue of the current business practices
14:30 < RobbieAB> If gentoo isn't customizable enough, have you tried LFS? (I doubt a BSD is really going to hit the mark either here)
14:30 < fturco> i build and booted LFS once
14:30 < Lucas_> most hardware vendors are moving most of the work into the firmware, making the drivers a layer that only sends and receive commands
14:31 < fturco> it's still on my list of possibilities
14:31 < RobbieAB> The BSDs are significantly more opinionated than pretty much any Linux. I happen to like the opinions of openbsd. :)
14:32 < fturco> i noticed i can't even set CFLAGS="-O2 -march=native -pipe" in mk.conf on openbsd, as i always did on gentoo
14:33 < armani> Just don't do what you always did on Gentoo on OpenBSD (:
14:34 < mischief> fturco: why not?
14:35 < fturco> mischief: there's a PIPE variable, but i don't know if i can set -march=native
14:37 < mischief> perhaps bsd.README:303:COPTS            Additional flags to the compiler when creating C objects.
14:37 < fturco> also, is it true that there were discussions of removing the possibility of selecting which sets to install? for example, i always disable the game set and xenocara sets
14:38 < Lucas_> yes, they were discussions
14:38 < fturco> because i don't play games and i only want to use the virtual terminal
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14:38 < Lucas_> bc a lot of people isn't aware that you need xenocara for ports even in cases were you don't run X
14:38 < Lucas_> s/they were/there were/
14:39 < fturco> so, if i want to build got (game of trees) from ports, i need xenocara installed?
14:39 < Lucas_> no
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14:39 < Lucas_> but that answer doesn't hold for a lot ports
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14:40 < cgnarne> fturco: don't build from source. there are benefits to do so.
14:42 < fturco> cgnarne: the only benefit i can see is convenience.
14:43 < fturco> i would even say lazyness, perhaps
14:44 < sibiria> what's the benefit in spending your time and electrical energy on building a package that the official developers already built for you, unless you need to tune the build?
14:44 < fturco> sibiria: i often need to tune the build
14:45 < sibiria> so it's not a case of laziness, but a case of simply not needing to tune the build
14:45 < fturco> there's also the problem of security/trust
14:45 < sibiria> you trust the sources provided by the openbsd project, but not the packages provided by the openbsd project?
14:45 < sibiria> o_O
14:45 < TommyC> not built here syndrome
14:45 < fturco> one can inspect the sources, but not the binaries
14:46 < TommyC> huh?
14:46 < TommyC> You can inspect binaries...
14:46 < sibiria> if they can modify the executable and binary files in the packages, why can they not modify the sources?
14:46 < fturco> you can inspect the sources before compiling them
14:46 < TommyC> and you can inspect the binaries after compiling the sources
14:47 < TommyC> What are you really worried about?
14:47 < sibiria> if you don't trust the official package repo, i think you cannot trust anything from the project
14:48 < sibiria> if a malicious actor could modify the package build environment, before the packages are signed with the official keys, they can and likely would modify a lot more
14:48 < sibiria> kernel source etc.
14:49 < sibiria> but i do understand your concern (i just don't think it's in parity with reality)
14:49 < TommyC> Even if the source is fine, how do we know the compiler is?
14:50 < sibiria> "everything is hacked, and all of it is done specifically to get into *my* computer"
14:50 < TommyC> fturco: You're freaking out about something that has a *very very* low probability of being a problem.
14:51 < TommyC> Even if it was a problem, there are many ways to mitigate it at many levels.
14:51 < sibiria> i think it's a valid concern. but i don't think the line of safety sits between the sources and the pre-built packages
14:51 < TommyC> Agreed.
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14:52 < fturco> assume at the beginning everything is clean and secure (including the compiler). then at a later time upstream goes evil and start distributing malicious binaries, while not altering cvs source code. at that point people using binaries will get hacked while users building their system themselves will not
14:53 < cgnarne> there is nothing to be concerned about. no there letter agency or state actor is after you. don't flatter yourself, you're not that interesting. 
14:53 < sibiria> fturco: the packages are cryptographically signed, though
14:53 < sibiria> signatures are created in the official build environment, before distribution
14:54 < fturco> cgnarne: i'm not concerned about myself only. *all* openbsd users using binaries will be hacked, including high-profile users, not just me.
14:54 < sibiria> same build environment pulls the exact sources you would pull yourself
14:54 < fturco> you have no control over upstream build environment. while you have full control over your own build environment
14:54 < cgnarne> no they won't. we're not interesting either
14:55 < sibiria> what "upstream"? it's the openbsd project's build environment. not that of the developer
14:55 < sibiria> the project builds the packages from the ports system
14:55 < sibiria> they sign them in the same process. the packages are not signed afterwards "out on the internet"
14:56 < TommyC> On top of that, you can always check the hash sum values of the resulting binaries against the one you built.
14:56 < fturco> only if they are reproducible
14:56 < TommyC> what is "they" here
14:56 < fturco> only if binaries are reproducible
14:56 < TommyC> You said assume we start clean.
14:57 < TommyC> So that if statement is already true in this scenario.
14:59 < fturco> you can start with a clean environment, and build the software twice in a row and get two different binaries
15:00 < fturco> the build process could be not deterministic
15:00 < cgnarne> define "clean"
15:00 < fturco> without malicious code
15:01 < sibiria> you have your work cut-out. you'd need to build everything from scratch, incl. openbsd's version of llvm/clang
15:01 < thrig> oh and to read and understand all the source code changes
15:01 < fturco> a single different timestamp can cause the build process to create two different binaries
15:01 < TommyC> What are you building where the time is a factor in the binary?
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15:02 < sibiria> a lot of stuff uses e.g. unix epoch as internal build version/string
15:02 < sibiria> pretty common
15:02 < fturco> i don't know if that's a problem on openbsd, but it is certainly a problem on linux
15:02 < TommyC> sibiria: That's fair
15:02 < fturco> there are projects (e.g. guix) that are working on reproducible builds
15:02 < TommyC> But that still begs the question, what project is causing that issue?
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15:03 < TommyC> I can't immediately think of anything to be completely honest.
15:03 < mischief> there are some distros with reproducible builds. not sure if openbsd has done any work toward that.
15:04 < TommyC> Those values are determined at compile time though, aren't they?
15:04 < fturco> you get a binary from theo, which is different than the one you built locally, but you just assume it's due to a different timestamp or something like that, while in reality the binary is malicious
15:04 < mischief> TommyC: which is the problem :-)
15:05 < TommyC> mischief: heh, well my point being you can just set them to the same value that the bulider claims to have set it to
15:05 < mischief> well yes, but that requires you (the build system) to go out of your way to do it
15:05 < mischief> gcc (probably llvm) supports the standard SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH to set __DATE__ and __TIME__ for example
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15:06 < TommyC> mischief: Regarding the paranoia around the question asked, I think it's appropriate. :3
15:06 < mischief> but that doesn't necessarily help someone writing -DBUILDDATE="$(date)" in their makefile, etc
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15:06 < TommyC> indeed
15:07  * fturco needs to go away
15:07 < fturco> bye!
15:07 < sibiria> godspeed, fturco 
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15:08 < TommyC> and good luck
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15:10 < Lucas_> oh well, I didn't manage to reply in time
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15:10 < Lucas_> linking order is not deterministic in OpenBSD
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15:12 < cgnarne> i remember going through that phase of mild paranoia. it'll pass
15:12 < thrig> or not, see the most unfortunate Kurt Gödel
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15:13 < Lucas_> good reference
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16:09 < kuzdra> oh, i've missed that talk on proprietary firmware blobs. have you talked about a fact that being able to see and examine the souce code is not enough yet? 
16:10 < kuzdra> meaning, if one's trully paranoid or suspicios of blobs, they probably should trust any code they didn't create. bootstrap everything from group up (-:
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16:11 < kuzdra> for one, i'm refering here to the Ken Thompson's "Reflections on Trusting Trust"
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16:12 < IcePic> firmware is kind of special there, since devices that need them often already have prebuilt code, but then you load more prebuilt code to fix issues or add functionality
16:13 < IcePic> and if you never think that the first kind of code is a problem, but only the second because it is more visible in the file system, then you are slightly misguided
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16:23  * sonya is still waiting for network captures, reporting "hidden" intel_me/amd_psp activities.. though.. anyway, i've no words to express my deepest gratitude to the folks like this one: https://github.com/alexbatalov  .. recreate sources from binaries - way above my skils..
16:23 < kuzdra> i've incorrectly assumed that /etc/firmware is populated by fw_update only, but it seems that part of it comes in base. the other part brought by fw_update isn't in base just due to licensing restrictions on distribution those blobs?
16:24 < phy1729> See the second paragraph of man fw_update
16:25 < kuzdra> right. that's where i got the idea from, reading it a while ago, probably. thanks
16:27 < cgnarne> lawyers ruin everything 
16:30 < thrig> (some license disputes have not involved lawyers)
16:31 < thrig> the djb software ports thing, or the reason for pf begin created
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16:35 < IcePic> djb (qmail in ports), darren reed (ipf) and schilling (cdrecord) have been solved without lawyers on obsd, but mostly it was just "your license is incompatible, so we will honor your wish and not ship it along with obsd" and then all these three were weird about it
16:35 < cgnarne> thrig: not yet
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16:39 < cgnarne> there is halford's law: lawyers aren't involved until they are
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16:42 < thrig> ... and then they ruin everything!
16:42 < thrig> well, unless you can afford a good one, I guess
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17:40 < jfsimon1> Good evening
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20:19 < orwell> Moin! I'm trying to reboot a system via serial console and am stuck in a boot loop: https://clbin.com/c6lDZ console speed and port are set, but the system restarts always after showing the copyright information. I reboot the system this way every two weeks or so, so this is not a new task for me. Anyone any ideas what's happening?
20:20 < orwell> Already tried to boot into single user mode or to boot bsd.sp but nothing changes
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20:23 < cparman> orwell: So it's a headless system?
20:23 < orwell> yes
20:23 < cparman> Hrmmmm
20:24 < cparman> orwell: So does it boot from the boot.iso image
20:24 < sibiria> does bsd.rd boot?
20:25 < cparman> orwell: I am asking becuase I don't know what lead up to th your situation.
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20:25 < cparman> yes, what sibiria typed
20:25 < orwell> sibiria: just tried it and the same boot loop occurs
20:26 < sibiria> very tricky since there's no further output
20:26 < cparman> it is
20:26 < cparman> not a whole lot to go on
20:27 < orwell> would love to provide you more, but at this stage i don't think i can't show you more
20:27 < orwell> *i can
20:28 < cparman> I mean there are no error message or anything like that
20:28 < orwell> nope :(
20:28 < cparman> shit
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20:30 < sibiria> i have no suggestions what to reconfigure, but can you reach the kernel config?
20:30 < vortexx> bootloader does seem to read the console settings correctly and then loads the kernel fully but it's weird it's crashing like that
20:30 < cparman> orwell: do a google search with this phrase "OpenBSD not booting from harddrive, no error messages"
20:30 < vortexx> is this 7.6 or -current orwell ?
20:31 < orwell> vortexx: 7.6
20:31 < vortexx> ok
20:31 < cparman> try to boot the iso and then go into the shell and run fdisk
20:32 < vortexx> there hasn't been a kernel syspatch for 7.6 on amd64 so that can be ruled out
20:32 < orwell> cparman: What am i supposed to find if i google this phrase?
20:32 < cparman> it might be a some sector corruption issue
20:33 < cparman> just google for some clues, dude :)
20:33 < orwell> cparman: if this would be the case, i wouldn't be able to decrypt the disk, or?
20:33 < cparman> thats what I do
20:34 < orwell> sure, i already did and didn't found anything related. Thought you're referring to a specific search result.
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20:34 < mischief> have you run a memory test lately
20:34 < vortexx> google rarely has answers for OpenBSD issues
20:35 < vortexx> marc.info mailing list archives tend to be much more useful
20:35 < sibiria> yeah wouldn't hurt to run memtest86+ (from memtest.org) 
20:35 < sibiria> if it's an actual machine and not a VPS, that is
20:36 < orwell> I'm following misc and tech and there weren't any related posts in the last few weeks/months
20:36 < orwell> memtest is a good idea. Never did one before at this machine
20:36 < orwell> yes it's hardware i own
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20:44 < cparman> Hey Orwell, do this enter "boot -c" at the boot> prompt and see what other veribale prints out
20:44 < cparman> I tested this on my POpenBSD 7.5 VM in Proxmox
20:45 < cparman> I mean, veribabage or however its speeled
20:45 < cparman> fuck I cant speel today
20:46 < cparman> other than that I am just spit-ballin' here :)
20:46 < orwell> boot -c shows nothing new... need to test memtest next
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20:47 < cparman> if its not hittin' the kernal then that is your next move
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20:50 < oldlaptop> kernal? what is this, a C64?! </snark>
20:51 < cparman> orwell: how many sticks of RAM are in that box?
20:53 < cparman> you probably know here I am going with this :)
20:53 < cparman> if there are two or more, then take one out and try a bootup
20:54 < cparman> this is shade-tree machanic trouble shooting by me, hahahaha
20:55 < oldlaptop> orwell: Besides memtest, I would wonder about the power supply.
20:57 < oldlaptop> Besides the general rule that entirely bizzare and inexplicable hardware problems are probably the power supply, the behavior you describe strikes me as consistent with a voltage dip (as soon as the kernel starts trying to do things) causing the machine to reset
20:57 < orwell> memtest gets stuck in a boot loop too
20:58 < orwell> but this could also happen if memtest doesn't recognizes serial output
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21:05 < vortexx> memtest86 works in serial console mode from what I'm reading
21:05 < orwell> cparman: it's just one stick of RAM
21:05 < orwell> I'm trying to use another power supply and will change the RAM
21:05 < orwell> I'll update you in a few minutes
21:06 < cparman> orwell: Ya, if you have some good used RAM sticks lying around try replacing with a known good stick of RAM and try a bootup :)
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21:09 < orwell> Yeah, replacing the power supply worked!
21:10 < orwell> The system boots up again
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21:10 < cparman> Well I;ll be damned, it was the power supply
21:10 < cparman> I was leaning towards memory :)
21:11 < orwell> Now I have to find out if the cable or the ups is guilty
21:11 < cparman> oldlaptop gets the "Win" today , hehehe :)
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21:11 < thrig> a good way to confirm the power supply is the problem is to drop a screw into the power supply
21:11 < orwell> Thanks to all of you!
21:12 < cparman> Glad it worked out for you, Orwell
21:13 < sibiria> a good way to confirm if the computer is cursed is to disconnect the PSU and see if it still keeps running
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21:22 < orwell> Okaaaaayyy that's strange! I just reconnected everything as it was to reconfirm the old power supply was guilty and.... it's booting. Any ideas what's happening?
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21:25 < cparman> orwell: I am not tracking here. Is the systems power supply replaced with a know good power supply?
21:27 < mischief> loose cable?
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21:52 < ssm_> I think the * target variable is bugged in make(1). manpage says "The file prefix of the file, containing only the file portion, no suffix or <preceding directory components>". using the test Makefile https://0x0.st/XhoD.txt, you can see it clearly see $* contains the proceeding directory components, regardless of relative path or not
21:54 < ssm_> tried this on non-phony targets as well, of course
21:55 < ssm_> gmake has the same behavior however, so maybe I'm reading it wrong... or the manpage is wrong
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21:59 < yang3> Is there another searching website for OpenBSD packages?  similar to openports.pl ?
21:59 < sibiria> openbsd.app
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22:01 < oldlaptop> any worth using should be using the same data (https://openports.pl/path/databases/sqlports) as openports.pl (which I understand includes openbsd.app)
22:02 < oldlaptop> back in the old days that notably did not include openports.se
22:02 < quinq> ssm_, I'd say the manpage is wrong
22:02 < oldlaptop> (don't imagine that'll be much of a problem going forward given that sqlports is all just there already)
22:03 < quinq> Because you can already get the rest through the standard D and F modifiers
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22:07 < quinq> Also the whole sentence reads weird (to me)
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22:07 < quinq> “The file prefix of the file”
22:07 < quinq> What's a file prefix of a file
22:07 < quinq> file-file?
22:08 < pony> basename?
22:08 < ssm_> file prefix of foo.bar would be foo
22:09 < ssm_> prefix being the opposite of a suffix
22:09 < quinq> So “the prefix of the file”
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22:09 < ssm_> it really should be "the file prefix of the target" I think
22:10 < quinq> or that
22:10 < quinq> But really rather
22:10 < quinq> “the suffix removed from the target”
22:10 < quinq> And that's it
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22:13 < yang3> I am compiling gcc
22:13 < yang3> sometimes the configure check , is checking for that
22:14 < yang3> I got a few packages compiled
22:14 < yang3> 36
22:14 < yang3> I got a few packages compiled.
22:15 < yang3> public_html/OpenBSD/mips64el
22:18 < mischief> you must be quite a patient person
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22:23 < yang3> mischief, I got the thing running daily, and a window opened to see what goes on, it's a hobby project
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22:24 < yang3> not much work , except from entering password each time, it extraccts a new dependancy
22:24 < yang3> sometimes when I want to shutdown the computer I break the build with CTRL+C
22:25 < yang3> and then I continue in the same directory after reboot, executing "make" - not sure if it's correct?
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22:31 < yang3> what is a good command to poweroff the computer, I tried "poweroff" but it doesn't work, so I am shutting it down with "shutdown -h now" but it doesn't power it off...
22:31 < sibiria> shutdown -p now
22:32 < yang3> ok
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22:33 < metavoid> so many button presses, halt -p is nice too :)
22:36 < sibiria> right. shutdown -p forks off to halt or something
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--- Log closed Sun Dec 08 00:00:38 2024