--- Log opened Fri Dec 20 00:00:49 2024
--- Day changed Fri Dec 20 2024
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02:15 < admin1234> hello!
02:15 < admin1234> > Rails 8 comes preconfigured with Kamal 2 for deploying your application anywhere. Whether to a cloud VM or your own hardware. Kamal takes a fresh Linux box and turns it into an application or accessory server with just a single “kamal setup” command. All it needs is the IP addresses for a set of servers with your SSH key deposited, and you’ll be ready to go into production in under two minutes.
02:15 < admin1234> seems they've copied my openbsd.sh
02:16 < admin1234> may i have some opinion on it? here it is including its README.md:
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02:26 < admin1234> https://clbin.com/Xa2F1 "OpenBSD Server Automation: OpenBSD is the world’s simplest and most secure Unix-like operating system. It’s a safe alternative to the frequent vulnerabilities and overengineering found in the Linux ecosystem."
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03:30 < lts> Well sure OpenBSD is safe, it's not going to fall on your legs or leak toxic gases
03:31 < thrig> maybe get help if you have trouble getting servers into and out of racks
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03:39 < ssm_> you will, however, need to deal with the two remote security holes in the default install, in a heck of a long time!
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03:45 < oldlaptop> Keep remaining hand away from sawblade.
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03:46 < thrig> someone lost an eye due to cancer treatment so they got him a "laser technician III" work badge
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03:50 < oldlaptop> (unix is one of those 19th-century sawmills with an unguarded eight-foot blade with rm(1) painted on the side)
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10:53 < Minall> I'm reading on this blog: https://www.c0ffee.net/blog/openbsd-on-a-laptop/#initial-configuration that it mentions that, the default resource limits in OpenBSD are extremely conservative. And then it changes the /etc/login.conf file. I've read its manual and yes, it mentions that it controls the environments and limits of a user.
10:55 < Minall> Now, I want to understand if this is necessary and be able to know if my system needs it. I've ran apropos limits. And in quota, it says that my user has no limits
10:55 < Minall> So I'm trying to make sense of it in my head (while of course reading the manuals )
10:55 < IcePic> login.conf sets the outer limits of ram, cpu and things like that. ulimits (set by your shell) might be even lower than this
10:56 < IcePic> ulimit -a (and ulimit -aH for hard (login.conf) limits) to see current values
10:57 < IcePic> for most usage, default limits are ok, but as soon as you start running many-tabs-in-chrome-or-firefox, compile large projects or edit huge movies/pictures or similar things, you might need to bump them
11:02 < Minall> Thanks, the ulimit command seems to be what I need. I doesn't have a manual but, it is pretty simple. Running it without anything outputs 'unlimited'. And running it with -a shows me what seems to be really no limits
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11:02 < Minall> So I think it doesn't make sense to edit the login.conf file, and that it may be redundant (so the blog may be incorrect)
11:02 < IcePic> ulimit is set by the shell, so it will be in your shells manpage. "man ksh" for default obsd user shell
11:04 < Minall> There it is, thanks
11:04 < IcePic> I don't think -a or -aH should say all dimensions have unlimited. The first three or so will, but not data/stack/memory/no-fds
11:05 < IcePic> still, the limits are there to protect you from runaway stuff like memory leaking programs and fork-bombs. One might want to remove the safeties, but they default to a safe(r) lower limit
11:06 < Minall> The first three do have unlimited, for data (134217728), stack (32768) and memory (16099728) seems to be good enough values
11:07 < IcePic> yeah, a bit platform dependant but 16G seems ok
11:07 < Minall> Oh, so they are also because of security then. In that case I will not change them at all. I'll study to see what they do though (checking what you mention, memory leaning and fork-bombs)
11:07 < Minall> What do you mean platform dependant?
11:09 < Minall> Thanks for your help IcePic, I can now be sure of the configuration (also know a little more about the systme)
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11:11 < kuzdra> Minall: one more aspect to keep in mind: you may hit certain limits indirectly, i.e. outside of your shell and user. say, if you run a resource-heavy daemons, e.g. bittorrent, media centre, etc. they are run under different users and are subject for different quotas
11:13 < IcePic> Minall: I mean that if you run a 128MB m88k-obsd box, it will not let you allocate 16G of ram, even if you had swap for it
11:13 < kuzdra> also, shell's ulimit changes limits for a running shell. keep it in mind in regards to when and where you run ulimit
11:14 < Minall> Makes sense. Since everything may be run with a user or with another group that the daemon may have. I'll have that in mind, at least for now the defaults do it for me. If I want to go further, I want to make sure also that it is needed, rather than just going and changing something because I read it makes it faster and that's it. One of the reasons of OpenBSD is to know what you're doing kuzdra
11:14 < Minall> So it forces me to read manuals a lot
11:14 < IcePic> so most people here assume amd64 if not mentioned, but obsd runs on a certain number of smaller hw types too, and they will have lower limits aswell
11:15 < Minall> IcePic: I have 16GB of RAM, and I'm on amd64... Can you elaborate in why it will not allocate it correctly ? (perhaps it is not the right question as I'm understanding all of this)
11:15 < IcePic> the openbsd project shuns howto webpages, since those are often valid for a subset of hw, a certain point in time, a specific release or whatever, but howto writers seldom take the time to either keep pages uptodate or mention that "this result if you run this command only works on obsd 5.6 .."
11:16 < Minall> Is there perhaps a manual page that I should read regarding this?, to know if the limits I have make sense for my architecture and all
11:16 < IcePic> Minall: if you have 16G ram and 4G swap, you may want to either use all of that and need a user to have more than 16G ulimit, OR, you have several competing programs needing only fractions of it and you want to lower the limit so no one of those can eat up the whole box and push the others out
11:17 < IcePic> it comes down to usecases and how you mean to use your machine. There can't be a single answer for such topics.
11:18 < Minall> Totally. At all I will be using it for Developing applications, and going through the web. Personal-work use mostly. But I think the defaults are alright, I don't want to run 6 services and it turns out they go beyond my RAM and my system crashes completelly
11:18 < IcePic> when I was a kid, having a unix box with 128M ram was a LOT, and you would easily see 10 people logged in to it at the same time, that was considered "normal" then. Now many OSes would not even be able to start their installers with so little memory, and even less run with that amount in a multiuser mode
11:19 < IcePic> Minall: on the other end, linux will honor all kinds of allocations and charge you for them as you go, so that when you fail, you are sort-of further into the wilderness and getting out of it becomes tougher when the breaks actually hit
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11:20 < IcePic> two design choices, no right-or-wrong really, just two ways to look at how to handle limited resources
11:23 < Minall> That's cool ot know actually
11:23 < Minall> Thanks guys
11:23 < Minall> A lot, as I understand more of this system
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16:00 < ForeverNoob[m]> https://paste.debian.net/plain/1340666 - On current. I'm planning to switch to stable anyway, but I figured maybe this might be of some importance to share.
16:02 < pardis> it's of importance to share that you haven't updated to the latest snapshot in 3 weeks?
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16:10 < ForeverNoob[m]> Hmm, that was supposed to happen automatically. I guess there's even more reason to switch to stable now.
16:11 < pardis> automatically how? did you put 'sysupgrade -s' in a cron job?
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16:14 < seninha> ForeverNoob[m], that failed dependency may not be resolved by pkg_add because the library is from the base system, not from any package
16:14 < seninha> Only `sysupgrade -s` (on a -current system) can fix that.
16:15 < ForeverNoob[m]> pardis: `sysupgrade -sn` along with a notification that it upgraded, currently configured to reboot manually, but notification was never sent apparently.
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16:37 < aaronm04> hi, I got an smtpd error on startup after upgrading to 7.6
16:37 < aaronm04> "lookup: table-proc: unexpected EOF during handshake"
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16:38 < aaronm04> and "smtpd: process lka socket closed"
16:38 < aaronm04> any ideas what I can fix here?
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16:41 < eea> #opensmtpd exists
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16:45 < aaronm04> Ok
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17:02 < uwharrie> there's also a mention of some smtpd table format changes on https://www.openbsd.org/faq/upgrade76.html
17:10 < seninha> Anyone here has an cron/anacron job to cleanup files temporarily uploaded to a web server? I want to steal^Wsee how one may do it.
17:10 < seninha> for now I am doing a naive `find /var/www/htdocs/tg -mtime 2 -delete` on a daily cron
17:11 < pardis> you probably want '-mtime +2', otherwise if the cron job doesn't run one day it will miss a day's files
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17:13 < kuzdra> ForeverNoob[m]: i believe "pkg_add -u" should go hand in hand with "sysupgrade" when you run -current
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17:18 < aaronm04> uwharrie: yes, I needed to uninstall opensmtpd-extras and install one of the opensmtpd-table-* packages
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18:02 < seninha> pardis, thanks; i did not know about the +/- prefix for find(1)
18:02 < seninha> Am reading it now in the manual.
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18:06 < uwharrie> See also https://mywiki.wooledge.org/UsingFind
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18:16 < thrig> (a bit outdated, there are now filesystems that do maybe store a file birth time)
18:17 < thrig> oh, it goes into the birth time thing
18:25 < ForeverNoob[m]> kuzdra: I agree. In my script it first does `pkg_add -u` and once it finishes (hopefully w/o errors), then the `sysupgrade -sn`
18:43 < ssm_> That can be a problem if a package fails to upgrade due to the snapshot depending on a lib in base that's too old. I always run pkg_add -u after running syspgrade -s and rebooting
18:49 < kuzdra> ssm_++
18:53 < uwharrie> I also always add `-Dsnap` to pkg_add to avoid the weirdness right before releases
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18:55 < kuzdra> uwharrie: that shouldn't be necessary if you are already on -current. what kind of weirdness have you experienced?
18:56 < Lucas_> that is necessary when -current is actually next version
18:56 < Lucas_> I also got used to write `-Dsnap` by default
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18:57 < pardis> you can't generally expect pkg_add -u to succeed either before *or* after a sysupgrade when running snapshots
18:58 < pardis> the packages may not be perfectly in sync with the base snapshot
18:59 < uwharrie> kuzdra: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=173034877830303&w=2 https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=160198366329416&w=2
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19:05 < kuzdra> i see. then i have a question. given i run -current. a new release drops. do i have to "sysupgrade -R NEW.RELEASE" first, "sysupgrade -s" second?
19:06 < Lucas_> no, sysupgrade -s still works
19:06 < pardis> no, and in fact you shouldn't do that
19:06 < kuzdra> in other words, if i'm already rolling, won't i roll on to snapshots past release?
19:06 < pardis> a new release becomes available a few weeks after being tagged in CVS, because it takes time to build the release
19:06 < pardis> so if you are regularly running 'sysupgrade -s', then going to a new release is actually a downgrade
19:06 < kuzdra> right
19:07 < kuzdra> okay, then i still don't see why explicit -Dsnap is needed. (i got no real experience yet. just trying to make sense of another quirk of pkg_*)
19:09 < pardis> pkg_add doesn't really have anything to do with sysupgrade, so I don't see why there would be a connection there
19:09 < kuzdra> i read in pkg_add(1) that -Dsnap affects expansion of %c and %m. ie. they are forced to behave just like on -current. hence my confusion and questions
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19:09 < Lucas_> pkg_add decides which repository to use based on the kernel name
19:09 < pardis> -Dsnap is needed because snapshots briefly think they are -release when the release is being tagged in CVS
19:09 < Lucas_> sorry, kernel version
19:09 < pardis> usually for about a week every 6 months
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19:15 < kuzdra> ah ha, i see. so there is a period when snapshot/-current == -release
19:15 < Lucas_> kinda.
19:15 < thrig> ~~
19:16 < thrig> if you squint just right and have a beer or two, then equality
19:16 < kuzdra> and during that period why, again, one may want to -Dsnap? wouldn't packages also be kinda the same?
19:16 < Lucas_> no
19:16 < Lucas_> bc -current = next -release
19:16 < Lucas_> and there aren't packages for next release yet
19:16 < Lucas_> but yes for -current
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19:19 < kuzdra> sorry, i don't understand that. -current is a "snapshot" dir on a mirror (if we speak packages) and -release is a $VERSION dir
19:20 < Lucas_> yes
19:20 < Lucas_> -release directory isn't made public until the release
19:21 < Lucas_> at kernel level, for a brief period of time, while -release is, say, 7.6, then -current will stop being 7.6-current and become 7.7-beta
19:21 < Lucas_> and then 7.7
19:21 < Lucas_> and then 7.7-current
19:21 < kuzdra> maybe i should clarify also how does the system know what is it running. i know about /var/db/installed.BUILDINFO and perhaps a kerner version is used too? (as in "uname -v")
19:21 < Lucas_> and then eventually 7.7 will be released and made public
19:22 < Lucas_> that small couple of days where -current identifies itself as 7.7, pkg_add will try to look for packages in the 7.7 release directory of the mirrors
19:22 < Lucas_> which does not exist
19:22 < Lucas_> and that's why you need to force it to use snapshots instead of trying to identify the version itself
19:23 < Lucas_> BUILDINFO only provides a date iirc
19:23 < pardis> pkg_* uses sysctl kern.version to tell what version it is running
19:23 < Lucas_> yes
19:24 < pardis> see /usr/libdata/perl5/OpenBSD/Paths.pm
19:24 < Lucas_> to both my comment and pardis'
19:25 < kuzdra> under compute_osversion(), i see
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19:28 < kuzdra> i think i finally get it. sorta a bit like a race condition. what helps to understand it is that snapshots are not always versioned as "-current", but may also be "-beta" or even an identical release version string
19:29 < kuzdra> if that so, pkg_* get confused, and rightly so
19:30 < kuzdra> so it will be looking for package updates like... effectively one release older, right? (-:
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19:33 < Lucas_> no, it'll be looking one release into the future
19:33 < kuzdra> oh, right. but nothing to be found there just yet, until published
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19:34 < kuzdra> does pkg_add fail with an error message in such case?
19:35 < kuzdra> meaning, "pkg_add -u" without -Dsnap won't go unnoticed or cause any harm. just cause noise?
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19:37 < Lucas_> it'll fail telling you that it got a 404
19:38 < kuzdra> gotcha. thank you for taking your time to explain these things to me, Lucas_ & pardis. i've learned a lot
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19:43 < kuzdra> i find it a little odd that a snapshot may have a version matching a release version. in my mind snapshots are a sort of nightly builds, so they would be always version-tagged as a tip of a trunk/dev branch, even if they happen to be build off exactly the same source code version
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19:44 < Lucas_> https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/sys/conf/newvers.sh
19:44 < Lucas_> that's what defines the version being built
19:44 < kuzdra> perhaps, this is done to save resources. it seems to me now that one of snapshots, when the time comes, gets "promoted" to a release
19:48 < kuzdra> (another oddity: pkg_* live in sbin, but is documented in section 1, not 8)
19:52 < Lucas_> hier(7) is as ambiguos as possible for /usr/bin vs /usr/sbin
19:52 < yang3> Hello
19:52 < pardis> it effectively conveys the history of the Unix filesystem layout, then
19:53 < thrig> ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny!
19:53 < Lucas_> ambiguous is a difficult-to-spell word
19:55 < kuzdra> find /usr/src/{sbin,usr.sbin} -name '*.1' # there are not so many outliers; and some of them seem to make sense
19:55 < kuzdra> yang3: what are you cooking* today? (-:    [*] building
19:55 < yang3> kuzdra, right now building emacs editor with 100 dependancies :)
19:56 < yang3> kuzdra I've been building it for 5 days
19:56 < kuzdra> yang3: welp, that's all you really need, don't you (o:
19:56 < thrig> eighty modules always compile slowly
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19:57 < yang3> kuzdra right hehe
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23:28 < o0x1eef> Try chrome. It'll take 87 years :))
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23:34 < mischief> literally just benchmarked it on the fastest machine i have access to, 1.2 hours
23:34 < mischief> 4481.91 seconds chromium-x11-123.0.6312.122-r0/do_compile
23:36 < o0x1eef> Not bad to be fair. What kind of machine is it?
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23:44 < mischief> o0x1eef: ryzen 9 9950x, 2x48G ~6400MHz ddr5, crucial T705 disk.
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23:45 < o0x1eef> Nice
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23:53 < yang3> oh, ik won't try to compile it then, hehe
23:53 < yang3> I won't try
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23:54 < yang3> mischief, how do you run benchmark along with "make" & "make install" on ports?
23:54 < sibiria> simplest way: "time make"
--- Log closed Sat Dec 21 00:00:40 2024