--- Log opened Sat Feb 01 00:00:56 2025
00:01 < metala> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Project_Fission introduced in Firefox 95 (2021), still stuff to be done there.
00:01  * oldlaptop erroneously remembered multi-process going in in the 3.x days
00:02 < metala> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1505832
00:02 < oldlaptop> That's describing isolation between frames on a single tab.
00:02 < oldlaptop> I don't know offhand that chrome does that at all.
00:03 < unrznbl> metala, fwiw i have used firefox with separate profiles per website for a while, works pretty well... lemme find my 'website' script...
00:03 < metala> I think it does, but I cannot tell for sure.
00:03 < oldlaptop> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Electrolysis has been shipping for many years
00:04 < metala> There are other minor things, like PPA and Mozilla's politics. But they are minor compared to the security-related features.
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00:05 < uwharrie> and at the end of the day, do you want to use the Google funded browser, or the Google funded browser
00:05 < metala> Interesting, maybe I've underestimated Firefox.
00:06 < oldlaptop> uwharrie: Until they degenerate sufficiently that they're shipping another chromium skin as an antitrust smoke screen, there's substantial value in a more or less complete independent implementation of GoogVM.
00:06 < metala> uwharrie: If I could, I'd stick to lynx... but eveything needs to be JS-driven these days.
00:07 < oldlaptop> (i.e. there are actually two of them)
00:07 < unrznbl> it uses a separate folder and -s option does a git add of the cookies file that i can share between computers.
00:07 < oldlaptop> a miserable situation, but less miserable than having one of them
00:07 < unrznbl> https://unreasonablefarm.org/unrznbl/website (sorry, lots of comments), it also copies my password if there is one from password-store
00:07 < oldlaptop> (And there's also whatever mainline webkit is good for these days.)
00:09 < unrznbl> edbrowse had a javascript engine :p, not saying it is usable... doesn't even really conform to ed-style at all (i am a daily/always ed user)
00:09 < oldlaptop> From this perspective, incidentally, all of the chromium skins (such as Brave) with privacy-related marketing are completely irrelevant. They're still just chrome.
00:13 < metala> chromium*. That's the good part. 
00:14 < oldlaptop> That's an amusing idea.
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00:15 < metala> but also (a bit) degoogled, it can have manifest v2 extensions (ublock, matrix).
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00:32 < metala> unrznbl: using different profiles for different sites is a cool workaround. I generally have {r,w,p,d}chromium scripts for recreation, work, personal and (web)development, but they are not split by websites. That is cool.
00:33 < metala> isn't it a bit tough on the storage?
00:34 < oldlaptop> (Workaround for what? It has no implications for isolation between frames on a single page, which you say (?) you're very concerned about, and has no implications for isolations between pages in different tabs or windows, because firefox does that whether you have separate profiles or not.)
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00:35 < oldlaptop> I'd think separate profiles per task makes a bit more sense than separate profiles per site as a general matter, but surely there are reasons.
00:37 < metala> maybe I dont use the correct word. It's not the inteded way to use profiles..
00:37 < metala> or at least I don't see it that way.
00:38 < oldlaptop> I'm not sure there's much intention about separate profiles at all. Firefox still has more or less polished UI support for such things - I assume the *original* intention was to support different human users?
00:38 < metala> yes
00:39 < metala> because the "skins" were something like Persona.. I have already forgotten the name.
00:39 < oldlaptop> whatever you do with chrome's hideous mass of totally undocumented commandline options is pretty much not what you're intended to do with chrome, by definition
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00:40 < oldlaptop> (if one of the chromium re-skin things actually attempts to document its commandline interface, I'm impressed.)
00:45 < metala> ok. I going to bed now. I will check the build and the ungoogled-chromium port in the morning. gn8
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00:53 < armin> oldlaptop: Well I'd doubt it, and web browsers in general are so damn far away from being somewhat useful today it's not funny...
00:54 < armin> The web today is actually in a pretty terrible state, I believe it's time that we come back to consciousness, and strive to reduce insanity bloat.
00:54 < oldlaptop> A portable application runtime is a pretty useful thing. Unfortunately it's not the same thing as a hypertext document system.
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00:56 < armin> oldlaptop: I've been deploying HTML only non-interactive something websites for 20 years now, and I believe this is something that got lost somewhere down the road, yes...
00:57 < armin> oldlaptop: I never understood why someone needs something heavier than plain VIM to make a website.
00:58 < oldlaptop> One case-study: As you might (and definitely should be!) aware, there is these days a full idea-to-G-code CAD/CAM toolchain for 3D printers in ports these days (cad/openscad or cad/solvespace and cad/prusaslicer). This is really, really cool, but the nature of openscad and solvespace as very much not big professional commercial solid-modeling CAD packages takes a bit of the shine off. (A hypothetical cad/freecad port would have aspirations in that 
00:58 < oldlaptop> direction, but they are not realized now and may never be.)
00:58 < armin> oldlaptop: Admittedly, I love to be able to do banking online, buy shoes on Amazon, all these little advantages, but still, I would *never* run a dynamic website publicly on my own
00:59 < armin> oldlaptop: I have no big clue about 3D printing, I know we run prusaslicer somewhere in our hackspace, also FreeCAD and some other thing I forgot
00:59 < oldlaptop> There does exist, however, a big commercial CAD package called onshape that runs in either of the GoogVM implementations in ports! So you can do CAD/CAM for 3D printing with serious commercial-level software all on OpenBSD.
00:59 < tvtoon> blender also works
00:59 < tvtoon> and it got OBSD support now!
01:00 < oldlaptop> (prusaslicer is sufficiently advanced that it's the basis for some of the competing "commercial" CAM software)
01:00 < oldlaptop> tvtoon: blender is not really comparable to an actual CAD package
01:00 < tvtoon> yeah, it is not autodesk-fam but for 3d printing it is enough
01:01 < oldlaptop> not a criticism - it's rather like saying a city bus is not really comparable to a semi tractor, they don't actually do the same job
01:01 < armin> oldlaptop: I'm happy that I have more competent people than me around me that I can ask those questions, the 3D printing computer we have in the hackspace is a blatant horror though, Docker containers, systemd, and weirdly set up so it's likely you'll just get lost in abstraction.
01:01 < mischief> yall are weird
01:01 < armin> mischief: that's correct.
01:02 < tvtoon> as for FreeCAD, I have been trying my hand with it, still got to check some support issues
01:02 < mischief> i run octoprint on bare metal and use solvespace for modeling
01:02 < mischief> nothing fancy
01:02 < tvtoon> it is pretty much complete for user development
01:02 < oldlaptop> mischief: solvespace is slick.
01:02 < armin> octoprint is nice, I know the main developer, she's cool
01:02 < unrznbl> metala: on a system where i open about 7 sites it took .5G, 240M for instagram which I recently left :)
01:03 < armin> I always tried to find an excuse to re-use this damn Ryzen 9 computer here because it is simply way too loud
01:03 < oldlaptop> It's more or less the 20% of a commercial solid modeler that gets you 80% of the utility (specifically the constraint solver it's presumably named after)
01:04 < oldlaptop> freecad is trying to be all 100%, with questionable success
01:04 < armin> unrznbl: the craziest (to me) thing is people that accumulate hundreds of tabs in a web browser, what the HELL are you doing there, have you never found the "close other tabs" feature and tried to manage bookmarks?
01:05 < armin> My mind is completely over-whelmed when I have 15+ tabs open already, how do people manage this even?
01:05 < oldlaptop> (and openscad is to the others as a rotary-engine snowmobile is to a car)
01:07 < armin> Also why would you anyhow accumulate more than 50 tabs? Why would you do that? Even with clever memory handling of your browser, that's like hurting yourself for no reason.
01:08 < armin> I don't get these people, and they're all around me, that's my hacker friends so to say.
01:10 < armin> Then the most weird type is those QubesOS users, who deploy an individual VM to do individual things, how do you even manage the stuff in your brain that you'll end up with a workflow like this? What weird substances do I have to take in order to understand this behavior?
01:10 < unrznbl> i have a buddy who has many tabs and many emacs buffers. i use tmux and ed, usually at most... 4-6 terminals maybe.
01:10 < armin> unrznbl: tmux, ed, emacs, okay, I hope you at least use emacs -nw
01:11 < unrznbl> oh, i dont use emacs unless i need to org babel some org mode automation my friend made.
01:11 < tvtoon> emacs buffers is daily stuff
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01:11 < armin> emacs is actually grand if you use it 100% in a terminal
01:11 < tvtoon> and you don't need to mix it with tmux :)
01:12 < oldlaptop> armin: I'm sure there are many, many people in the world who wonder what exotic substances make your workflow make sense. :)
01:12 < oldlaptop> that's probably more or less a given for anyone in a channel like this
01:12 < armin> tvtoon: If I can't run a program properly inside tmux, and(!) I can re-assign keyboard shortcuts so it aligns with my tmux workflow, I'll consider it broken. 30 years of muscle memory go a long way.
01:13 < armin> tvtoon: (yes I use screen ^A command pre-fix...)
01:13 < tvtoon> point is that you can use emacs as shell, so using it with tmux is pointless
01:14 < tvtoon> two things that will deliver the same job
01:14 < oldlaptop> I can use X as a terminal multiplexer. Clearly both tmux and emacs are pointless.
01:14 < tvtoon> yeah, but we are doing terminal here
01:14 < armin> tvtoon: emacs can do a lot of strange things, my point of belief currenlty is that if you use it as really just an editor, and you use emacs -nw, so just inside a terminal, then yes we can still be friends.
01:14 < tvtoon> without X11
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01:15 < armin> without X11, because why would you?
01:15 < tvtoon> no, because there is another point using emacs graphical interface
01:15 < tvtoon> multilanguage
01:16 < tvtoon> people don't realize how emacs excel at that against anything
01:19 < armin> tvtoon: I think it's valid to assume that I'm overlooking that, too, yes, I'm very terminal focused
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01:25 < armin> But yeah I value any person that's doing sane things with Emacs, as long as you're able to do your work fully on emacs -nw, I have no further questions...
01:27 < armin> I personally use just plain VIM with a super simple 100 lines config I can wget, but hey, that's just me - I've seen people on Emacs doing WEIRD stuff, gotta respect that
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01:29 < armin> And I honestly mean weird stuff - stuff that makes you think "holy sh*t, wow, can VIM even do that if I try the hardest I could!?"
01:30 < armin> Emacs is honestly a really really good travel, I just believe you *should* still be able to use it on an 80x24 serial console terminal, with emacs -nw
01:31 < armin> If you can survive *that* on a VT100, then by all means, use the editor you want.
01:32 < thrig> vi meanwhile had an option to set the window size to 0
01:33 < armin> But yeah, if I can put you in front of a really really slow computer, something with just 80x24 text console, no X, nothing graphical, and you're able to do serious work on some monochrome monitor and keyboard, I will so TOTALLY hire you.
01:33 < armin> no matter if you use emacs or vi(m). ;-)
01:34 < thrig> my vi is a mutated version of the one in OpenBSD
01:35 < armin> The experience on OpenBSD is perfectly fine, if I say "visudo", I expect something vi-like to let me edit sudo. No more, no less. OpenBSD does this.
01:37 < armin> I'm short of throwing something through a window when I type "visudo" and some Nano opens, I admit it.
01:39 < armin> And yes I sometimes use sudo on OpenBSD, shoot me.
01:43 < drotte> armin: hire me then i wanna quit the datacenter
01:44 < armin> But still, the general behaviour of what happens when you change your shell to bash on OpenBSD is sane, you can understand what's goingon, afterall - it's just .bash_profile > .bashrd you need to remember and maybe a simple ". $HOME/.bashrc" in the former if your'e funky
01:45 < armin> jajaja /hrd/hrc/g lol
01:45 < mischief> my bashrc is only . ~/.profile :-)
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01:46 < armin> mischief: I love the deep thought behind that statement
01:46 < drotte> ksh: bash: not found
01:47 < armin> drotte: That just means you got a fresh OpenBSD installation where no BASH is installed (yet), that's a good thing.
01:48 < drotte> no, i don't use it. i have to at work though
01:48 < armin> you "have to" lol
01:49 < drotte> yep
01:49 < armin> BASH doesn't actually do harm 
01:49 < armin> but hey, okay. :)
01:49 < drotte> harms my fragile psychology
01:50 < armin> hahahaha :)
01:50 < armin> <3
01:51 < thrig> I didn't like bash and then shellshock happened
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01:56 < drotte> bash doesn't have snail poetry 
01:56 < drotte> https://j3s.sh/thought/write-posix-shell.html
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01:59 < tvtoon> use rush!
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02:17 < unrznbl> armin: hire me if I only use ed+tmux? ;)
02:17 < armin> lol
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02:18 < unrznbl> I use dwn with two desktop-whatever-they-are-called, 1=tmux in lxterminal and 2=google-chrome (sorry, I use debian currently for work, for libvirt/docker/vagrant)
02:19 < armin> dwn or dwm
02:20 < unrznbl> right. I can't type for anything on my fairphone/android. dwm, dmenu, suckless fanperson... I like trying to use ii for irc but needed to offline so went with chat.sr.ht in a browser
02:21 < armin> :D
02:21 < armin> <3
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05:37 < naoki> hmmmmm... install76.img doesn't boot on my ASRock Ryzen MB :(
05:37 < ssm_> naoki: did you disable secure boot?
05:38 < naoki> ssm_: oh!
05:42 < naoki> ssm_: thanks :D
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09:36 < Darthix> guys, I wasn't sure where to ask this but I suspect it will be an easy question for most. I have installed openbsd on 8th gen i5 laptop, so cca 2018 model. everything works includig wifi. got XFCE running, browser, kitty... no problems whatsoever except cpu pegging and speed
09:37 < Darthix> one of my cores is constantly fully utilized by what appears to be the X login manager, which does not make much sense to me. also the whole OS drags. it's insanely slow compared to freebsd that I tried before
09:37 < anelli> sounds like a t480 :b. ummm more info pls. openbsd is typically slower than the other bsds & linux due to it's focus on security. is there a specific thing that's slow for u?
09:37 < anelli> ooh
09:37 < Darthix> I was hoping that I misconfigured something and there would be a documented fix
09:37 < anelli> did you edit any sysctl's?
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09:38 < Darthix> and yes, it's T580 which is exactly the same as T480 but with bigger screen
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09:38 < anelli> default install doesn't never hogged for me
09:38 < anelli> oh nice t580. lemme chcek my t480's top
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09:39 < Darthix> I did not edit anything after install. install already gave me X login and I only installed xfce and changed my .xinitrc, installed firefox, kitty and that's about it so far
09:39 < anelli> hmmm. is it xenodm that's hogging?
09:39 < Darthix> I edited hostname file to get wifi up, but that hardly seems related to one cpu core being pegged all the time
09:39 < Darthix> xenodm, yes
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09:40 < Darthix> should I avoid it and start my gui with startx instead? I haven't tried that tbh
09:40 < anelli> try rcctl stop xenocara yeah
09:40 < anelli> wait
09:40 < anelli> nah no need to startx
09:40 < anelli> stop xenocara and start again with rcctl from a tty. see if it still hogs
09:41 < anelli> i think it'd be better if you clear xinitrc too. try with the absolute defaults. this might rule it out
09:42 < Darthix> you asked what is slow. starting any gui app feels like it takes way too long. also in the shell I installed some oh my zsh theme and when I press enter fast some lines skip like the cpu can't keep up. the same thing never behaved like this on this laptop on another os. the shell thing is not a deal breaker being a bit slow but it adds up to the general feel that the system is hogged by something
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09:42 < Darthix> brb let me try all you said
09:42 < anelli> oki
09:43 < anelli> slow startup is normal because openbsd's i/o is slower than other OS's
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09:43 < Darthix> I am trying to prove to myself that it's a good laptop os :)
09:43 < anelli> hehe i feel ya
09:44 < Darthix> ok first things first, I logged into xfce and now to stop xenocara
09:45 < Darthix> service xenocara does not exist
09:45 < anelli> oh sorry
09:45 < anelli> xenodm
09:45 < anelli> xenocara is the project's name
09:45 < Darthix> that killed my x session
09:45 < anelli> yes
09:46 < anelli> backup any configurations so we can test whether it still hogs without anything running
09:46 < anelli> just to eliminate the issue
09:46 < Darthix> I am looking at htop from text console now and one core is still at 100%
09:46 < anelli> aw
09:47 < anelli> what's hogging?
09:47 < Darthix> X is not even running
09:47 < anelli> also Darthix it's better to use top(1). it's more accurate. also you can use `-s 1` to make it update each second
09:47 < Darthix> apparently nothing? all processes are reporting 0% cpu
09:48 < luke86> "due to it's focus on security" - btw. just curious, are there any particular big features that would cause majority of the slowdowns, or just lots of small things adding up?
09:48 < Darthix> ok using top now, no problem. but same result. 0% user 0% nice 85% sys on core 0 and 1% spin 13% intr
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09:49 < anelli> luke86: for example smp being disabled due to security issues with it. i think it's a compound of lots of things but i'm not knowledgable about it
09:49 < Darthix> luke86: I am not a good person to answer this but as I understand it OpenBSD programming is "simple in nature" in order to avoid as much potential security issues. therefore may not be speed optimized
09:49 < anelli> Darthix: same here
09:49 < anelli> i think that's normal? lemme c
09:50 < luke86> gotcha, thx
09:50 < Darthix> I disabled xenodm and rebooted. let's see on fresh reboot how core 0 behaves
09:51 < Darthix> now all cores are 99-100% idle
09:51 < anelli> my core0 haz 86% sys usage too. it's not like that on my t60. i think something is up. guess we'd wait for smarter ppl to chime in :b
09:52 < anelli> Darthix: oh it's idle now?
09:52 < Darthix> anelli: yes. all I did was disable xenodm from starting upon reboot and it's fine now
09:52 < pardis> SMP is not disabled, only SMT (by default), and that has questionable performance impact anyway
09:52 < anelli> pardis: oh sorry i mix them up all the time
09:53 < pardis> the only significant adverse impact OpenBSD's security focus has on performance is opportunity cost, really
09:53 < Darthix> SMT only helps bad SMP programming :)
09:53 < pardis> OpenBSD is conservative with adding new features because they want to be sure new code is correct, and also people usually spend time on things other than perforance (moreso than in other OSes)
09:54 < pardis> if the project had unlimited developer hours to put into solving problems, it would undoubtedly be secure and fast, but they don't
09:54 < Darthix> I am not too keen on performance as much as I want battery life and my laptop fan to stop blowing hot air
09:54 < Darthix> ...when I am doing noting
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09:55 < Darthix> I will be back in half an hour to read mention, must taxi my daughter to jym
09:55 < anelli> gl
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09:57 < anelli> Darthix: somehow my sys usage dropped too on restart xD
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10:06 < luke86> i was recently trying to set up a *bsd on an even older thinkpad (https://luke8086.dev/netbsd-on-thinkpad-380z.html) and there was a big performance difference between net* and open*. since i doubt net* had tons of dev resources to focus strictly on performance, i felt like maybe there was some particular feature in open* that was pulling the handbrake
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10:21 < Darthix> ok I booted it up again now .. and once again my core 0 is being pegged for no reason
10:21 < Darthix> now I am confused
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10:22 < Darthix> anelli: can you reboot again and see if it's consistent?
10:24 < anelli> Darthix: sure thing. i don't use it much :b
10:24 < ivdsangen> after booting there is a kernel relinking process, maybe that is what you see, it takes some time, after that the cores should go idle again
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10:25 < anelli> ivdsangen: is actually different. i had this machine on for i think more than a day. the high sys usage was before restarting
10:25 < Darthix> I rebooted again and again all cores are idle
10:25 < Darthix> this feels a bit random
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10:26 < Darthix> WHILE my core 0 is being pegged let's say I want to cd into a folder and I TAB complete the folder name .. it takes a bit for tab complete to do the job
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10:26 < Darthix> when cores are idle then tab complete is instant
10:26 < Darthix> this is in text console, mind you. no X running
10:27 < pardis> have you run top with -S?
10:28 < Darthix> not until this very moment. what am I looking for?
10:28 < pardis> nothing unless you do it when your cpu is pegged
10:28 < pardis> if you see no processes using the cpu without -S, chances are it's a system thread that will be seen with -S
10:28 < Darthix> ah, let's reboot again to see if I can trigger it again
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10:29 < Darthix> could there be a difference between fresh power on boot and reboot?
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10:30 < Darthix> yeah it's manifesting again and the culprit is acpi0
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10:31 < Darthix> let's try to stop apmd and se if that changes anything
10:31 < Darthix> no change. apmd is not to blame
10:33 < anelli> still 0. Darthix did you try -S
10:34 < anelli> it would show more processes
10:34 < anelli> try it out when sys usage goes randomly up again
10:34 < Darthix> yes I am looking at -S and acpi0 is the one who is pegging core 0
10:34 < anelli> ooooh got ya
10:35 < Darthix> acpi0 command is reporting 85% cpu usage
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10:40 < pardis> anything from acpi0 in dmesg?
10:44 < Darthix> no errors that I can see
10:48 < Darthix> so far every time the problem manifested was a fresh power on boot and on every reboot the problem was gone.
10:49 < Darthix> ok I enabled xenodm again and rebooted and logged into X and everything is super responsive now
10:49 < Darthix> all cores idle
10:49 < Darthix> so my problem has nothing to do with xenodm or X at all
10:51 < Darthix> also my laptop fan no longer feels the need to spin. which is awesome
10:53 < Darthix> I rebooted again and again no issue
10:53 < Darthix> statistics so far tells me that fresh boot triggers the issue
10:53 < Darthix> sorry for talking with myself, I am just typing what I am testing
10:55 < Darthix> ok, I close the lid of the laptop and the system sleeps and then resumes when I open it and acpi0 once again hogs the cpu while it was fine pre-sleep
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11:07 < Darthix> I disabled CPU power management in bios and that did not help
11:07 < anelli> Darthix: post dmesg on https://clbin.com just for measure
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11:08 < Darthix> in a minute
11:11 < Darthix> https://clbin.com/ZVk9N
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11:19 < metala> unrznbl: thank you.
11:24 < Darthix> I disabled ACPI and now my system does not boot anymore. it hangs during boot process
11:27 < Darthix> I have no more ideas. I disables a whole bunch of stuff in the bios, but none of it matters
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11:29 < anelli> Darthix: issoke. guess we wait more. or uhhh you can also post it all the findings on the mailing list too. might get more attention (along with the dmesg)
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11:30 < Darthix> which mail address? the one mentioned in the OS install welcome email?
11:30 < anelli> Darthix: here https://www.openbsd.org/mail.html
11:31 < anelli> misc@ would do
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11:35 < anelli> Darthix: lemme know if you get to resolve it btw as i think my t480 has this too. gl
11:35 < Darthix> anelli: ok
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11:44 < henrix> Darthix: disabling cpu power management and acpi in the bios is usually a very bad idea
11:44 < henrix> your cpu may fry
11:44 < henrix> just saying...
11:45 < Darthix> I enabled it again
11:49 < sibiria> unless it's a CPU from the early 2000s, it will have thermal protection
11:51 < metala> henrix: t480 is Intel Core i Haswell. I think they throttle the freq + volt on their won, if they hit ~100C. A very old P3 laptop was powering off on 100C.
11:52 < anelli> metala: Darthix has 580. i tink the cpu model is in the config
11:53 < metala> Thinkpad t480 / t580 should be the same model with a different display size.
11:53 < Darthix> T580 whre OpenBSD is and T480 where I am typing this from :)
11:53 < anelli> yeah
11:53 < anelli> Darthix: haha we twinning again
11:53 < Darthix> you also have both?
11:53 < anelli> metala: sorri carry on then :b
11:54 < anelli> Darthix: nah but thought u didin't have t480. i has t60&t480. wanna get an x200 soon
11:54 < anelli> tryna set refind on it now
11:54 < Darthix> why x200?
11:54 < Darthix> you need something smaller to carry?
11:54 < anelli> Darthix: smallest gen1 ime thinkpad
11:55 < anelli> so i can fully remove the mossad box
11:55 < metala> anelli: I was mistaken it's Kaby Lake, not Haswell, but that doesn't change much.
11:55 < anelli> fairs
11:55 < anelli> Darthix: i like carrying laptop with me too yesyes
11:55 < Darthix> I am considering X1 carbon Gen9 for OpenBSD. not sure if that's the greatest idea, but I am waiting for companies to start getting rid of them so I can get a good price on refurbished model
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12:17 < TheyCallMePaul> A few weeks back I posted here about trying to get an OpenBSD VPS to use a different server on the private network interface (vio1) as the default gateway instead of public network interface (vio0). Someone kindly suggested a command with route something-or-other, and that set me on a path to learning a lot more than I kmew before.
12:18 < TheyCallMePaul> I now have a gateway working great on vio1 using static configuration in /etc/hostname.vio1 and /etc/mygate, but I still want to be able to SSH directly into vio0 using the ISP's assigned public IP address, but the IP address is unreachable as I can't seem to find a working configuration for vio0.
12:19 < TheyCallMePaul> Here is my current iteration of hostname.vio: https://clbin.com/PVKD8
12:20 < TheyCallMePaul> If anyone can offer me any suggestions, I would greatly appreciate it.
12:21 < quinq> A small drawing might help, I don't understand your network description
12:22 < sibiria> vio0 is wan. vio0 is lan. he wants vio1 to be the default gateway and egress, but still want external access through vio0
12:22 < quinq> Does the machine have a direct public v4 interface (vio0), and another interface that hops through one gateway before reaching the public network (vio1)?
12:22 < sibiria> vio1 is lan*
12:23 < quinq> Then we need to see the routing table too
12:23 < TheyCallMePaul> sibiria that is correct
12:23 < quinq> Though your machine should be just reachable on vio0
12:23 < sibiria> with some "luck" it could be as simple as vio0 no longer being part of the egress group, while your pf ruleset concerns itself with the egress group rather than the specific interface
12:23 < quinq> Is there some packet filtering on top of this?
12:25 < quinq> Note that none of the two IPs you shared seem to respond to ICMP
12:25 < quinq> That might be on purpose, but doesn't help debugging
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12:26 < TheyCallMePaul> I use the RFC documentation IPv4 addresses for anonymization.
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12:27 < TheyCallMePaul> That particular IP address I use for all sorts of learning, so prefer not to broadcast it.
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12:28 < TheyCallMePaul> I have to recreate the configs from ISP virtual console, which is miserable.
12:28 < quinq> That's the only working access you get to it?
12:28 < quinq> Cannot scp in/out?
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12:29 < quinq> (throught vio1)
12:29 < quinq> *through
12:29 < TheyCallMePaul> Not without setting something up on vio1, which this so far hasn't been a huge deal for working, but sharing configs take a few.
12:30 < quinq> So vio1 public traffic doesn't work either?
12:31 < TheyCallMePaul> My 'pass inet proto icmp...' are all at the bottom of pf.conf.
12:32 < TheyCallMePaul> vio1 uses a different server as a gateway that I would have to configure to support SSH back into the private network. I didn't configure for that as my (naive) thinking was just SSH in using vio0.
12:33 < TheyCallMePaul> The reason for using the private network gateway is that is where I have a proxy server, and the services I'm working on figuring out need to initiate outbound requests, which need to come from the same IP address that external servers make requests to, if that makes sense.
12:33 < sibiria> if your goal is to use that machine as a jumphost or proxy, that routes traffic out through a different IP than the way you came in, then you should just treat vio0 as your egress
12:33 < sibiria> and merely route for vio1
12:37 < sibiria> that is, enable ip-forwarding and nat the intended traffic towards vio1
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12:53 < TheyCallMePaul> I'm not really sure on how to filter for the intended traffic, unless it's just all traffic except inbound port 22? The only thing I wanted to support on vio0 is SSH into the server, which in my mind would not be so difficult.
12:58 < pardis> this is what reply-to is for in pf.conf
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13:06 < TheyCallMePaul> I'm not clear on how to use reply-to - is this so that requests on vio0 receive replies on vio0?
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14:14 < TheyCallMePaul> This is pretty much everything I've tinkered with trying to get this to work: https://clbin.com/KDJON
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14:15 < TheyCallMePaul> Where I feel like I'm really stuck is vio0 configured with the line 'inet autoconf' sets itself as the gateway and then configuring vio1 with 'inet 172.16.27.15 0xffff0000' allows me to do almost anything on vio1, but then manually configure vio1 to be the gateway and I can't do anything on manually configured vio0.
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14:28 < sibiria> the lan interface (vio1) being the egress, will mess a few things up
14:29 < sibiria> unfortunately i don't run one of these setups on openbsd anymore and i don't have "compute" available to test things for you, but i would start with undoing vio1 as the default gate and instead focus on trying to make pf lift forwarded packages over from the sshd to vio1
14:30 < sibiria> let vio0 be your egress. let vio1 be "just" a private network (which incidentally has a proxy somewhere that has another route to the internet)
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15:01 < TheyCallMePaul> I'm not clear on how this solves my original problem of the services that need to initiate requests using the same public IP address requests are received on.
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15:32 < voidheart> does opensmtpd support sub-addressing using + notation?
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15:36 < TheyCallMePaul> Yes, it is covered in smtpd.conf(5) in more depth.
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15:44 < voidheart> found it, thank you 😀
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16:05 < anelli> hi everyone. i have multiple openbsd machines running on lan and want to update them all quickly and without downloading the snapshot multiple times. what's the best way to approach this? i usually try to `sysupgrade -kns` then scp the upgrade to each machine
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16:05 < anelli> so i'm wondering if someone else is dealing with this and how they managed to solve it
16:06 < vortexx> anelli: local http server that mirrors the snapshot is the way to go
16:06 < anelli> vortexx: sounds nice. i'll check it out. thxxx
16:07 < vortexx> you'll need to replicate the folder layout of the OpenBD mirrors
16:07 < vortexx> you're welcome
16:07 < anelli> > you'll need to replicate the folder layout of the OpenBD mirrors
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16:07 < anelli> alrighty. will keep in mind
16:07 < vortexx> basically you nee to serve pub/OpenBSD/snapshots/amd64 or whatever arch you're using
16:08 < anelli> yah. ig some rules in httpd would do
16:08 < anelli> or a second httpd?
16:08 < anelli> i'll figure it out no worri
16:08 < vortexx> make sure you have the SHA256 and SHA256.sig files, and add an index.txt listing all the files in the snapshots/amd64 dir vi ls -lR >index.txt
16:09 < anelli> oh yes
16:09 < anelli> will do
16:09 < vortexx> s/vi/via
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16:19 < IcePic> anelli: you could point them to use a local caching proxy, then first node will fill cache, the rest collects from that
16:19 < anelli> IcePic: same as vortexx suggested right?
16:20 < IcePic> no, I think vortexx suggests rsyncing them down and serve via httpd yourself
16:20 < IcePic> I am proposing using squid or something and let your nodes use that for http/https fetches
16:22 < vortexx> yes rsync'ing or running a download script
16:22 < anelli> IcePic: ooh got ya. i'll check that out too thx. tbh i wanna try to use the least amount of ports to make the server simpler. maybe a cronjob would fix the manual issue
16:22 < anelli> btw unrelated but do i need relayd(8) if i only have one server? i already handle tls in httpd.conf but i see lots ppl moving that to relayd
16:23 < IcePic> relayd is not needed unless you want to do some trickery, alter headers and things like that. For just serving data, httpd is fine
16:23 < vortexx> anelli: https://clbin.com/tW5b3 this is my fetchsets script, ajust it for snapshots instead of release
16:24 < anelli> IcePic: oh alright. thxx. maybe i'll check it's manpage someday :b
16:24 < anelli> vortexx: you letting me cheat now x3 thx a lot i'll give it a spin
16:25 < IcePic> relayd does a lot of things, and some parts that certain people expects httpd to do is already in relayd, so devs will not make two programs do the same thing, more or less, so that is why some things end up being in relayd even if other http daemons contain such features
16:25 < thrig> awk '{print $10}' foo.txt | while read ...
16:25 < anelli> IcePic: fair thing
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16:26 < vortexx> I mainly use it to get the official release in the weeks after building the release myself so my routers can upgrade via sysupgrade (I upgrade my VMs via bsd.rd on my newly built release)
16:27 < IcePic> inversely, people like me that mostly only ever need what is in httpd(8) today, I am somewhat happy that crap doesnt creep into it that I will not need and don't want to have to unconfigure or manage
16:27 < vortexx> thrig: 50 ways to skin a cat :)
16:28 < anelli> IcePic: yah. having a small daemon that covers most usecases is nice
16:28 < anelli> vortexx: rad
16:33 < quinq> Rien à dire
16:35 < vortexx> hinhin
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16:37 < oldlaptop> anelli: Once you have all this stuff set up it's also a pretty small additional step to set up autoinstall(8)
16:39 < oldlaptop> particularly if you can arrange for the network's dhcp server to give a next-server
16:40 < anelli> oldlaptop: is encrypted so i don't think it'd fully work
16:41 < oldlaptop> That shouldn't prevent autoinstall from working - it does mean you have an additional thing you need to do before it starts, obviously
16:42 < oldlaptop> for a laptop you probably don't want to keep PXE first in its boot order for instance, so you're already poking it after power-on for that
16:42 < anelli> fair thing
16:43 < anelli> i'll check it out. thx
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17:36 < TheyCallMePaul> Is there a way I could use user (or group) to send all packets from the user out on vio1?  https://man.openbsd.org/pf.conf#user
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17:46 < phy1729> I use rdomains and login.conf(.d) for that (but with wg)
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17:58 < TheyCallMePaul> "An interface belongs to one and only one rdomain." I think this kills it for me, if I understand it correctly.
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20:27 < ssm_> is there a utility in base like net/wireshark that can be used to analyze traffic of specific processes?
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20:28 < ssm_> maybe pf could be wrangled to do something like that on a specific port, but not a specific application or process to my knowledge
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20:31 < thrig> give the processes a custom rdomain and then log stuff there?
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20:56 < riceandbeans> I have an OpenBSD box in range of my modem/router. It has 4 ports, 1 used to connect to the router. I have another box out of range ( because I ran out of longer cables ) of the modem/router, but within range of the OpenBSD box. What would be the simplest way to be able to have it run through the OpenBSD box to get to the router?
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20:57 < riceandbeans> In my head I imagine running a DHCP server on the 2nd port and having pf route outbound from that network through port 1
20:57 < riceandbeans> But I don't know if I could just as easily have the DHCP packets pass through from the modem/router
20:58 < thrig> transparent bridging firewalls are a thing
20:58 < mischief> riceandbeans: veb it up
20:59 < mischief> you could nat (having double nat) but why bother
20:59 < riceandbeans> How does one tranparent bridge firewall in OpenBSD?
21:00 < mischief> just put your upstream port and downstream port into veb, and make a vport for the host
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21:14 < vortexx> I concur on just using veb as a bridge between two ethernet ports so the other box has full access to the router
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21:57 < Darthix> ssm_: tcpdump ??
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22:04 < ssm_> Darthix: I specifically want to read outgoing connections from www/dooble and www/otter-browser on first run. not out of paranoid, just trying to learn some network analysis
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22:04 < ssm_> though I don't see a way to monitor tcp connections with tcpdump except on entire interfaces
22:05 < ssm_> perhaps with the power of grep and tail -f
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22:07 < Darthix> ssm_: we are now exiting my comfort zone, but I am somewhat sure that pf should be able to filter out traffit of a certain process
22:07 < Darthix> pfctl
22:09 < Darthix> you need a way to use pf to filter the process to pfctl and export it to a log file and then analyze with tcpdump
22:09 < Darthix> I hope I am on the right track with this line of thought
22:10 < riceandbeans> Is there any reason why vport0 couldn't be dhcp?
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22:20 < metala> I have an OpenBSD running on qemu. I've added cores, but now I don't have /boot.mp present. Where to get it?
22:23 < metala> Ah, I think I found it. I will have to boot.rd and try to upgrade.
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22:27 < metala> It worked.
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22:34 < mischief> riceandbeans: should work. did you mark the slaves of the veb `up`?
22:35 < riceandbeans> well I can't reach the openbsd box anymore so I have to cable up a keyboard and monitor to it
22:37 < riceandbeans> em0 is openbsd -> router, em1 is openbsd -> freebsd, I told em0 and em1 to just 'up', veb0 has add em0, add em1, add vport0,      and vport0 just has dhcp
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22:38 < riceandbeans> Plugging into em1 on the openbsd box the freebsd box lost connectivity and also I couldn't hit it through the router anymore
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22:38 < riceandbeans> mischief: where did I go wrong?
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22:55 < mischief> dunno, check tcpdump. maybe pf blocks something?
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22:59 < anelli> hey frends. is there a way to detect if system is running release or snapshot? uname isn't very telling. also uhh is there a way to get an "id" for the snapshot or is it BUILDINFO?
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23:01 < anelli> i can see "OpenBSD 7.6-current" in dmesg. sounds good
23:03 < anelli> parsing kern.version from sysctl looks better. got it nvm x3 thx
23:04 < quinq> :)
23:06 < riceandbeans> mischief: hooked up a monitor, openbsd is acrtually getting a lease on vport0 and I can reach it from the freebsd box going through the router, but the freebsd box plugged into port2 is not able to get a lease
23:06 < riceandbeans> also pf is disabled
23:06 < mischief> did you enable forwarding?
23:07 < riceandbeans> in sysctl? yes
23:08 < mischief> again maybe tcpdump the port
23:09 < mischief> i got a new monitor recently for situations like this with headless boxes
23:09 < riceandbeans> Yeah I have monitors and keyboards on both systems right now and the freebsd box is right next to it for the moment to help testing but I need to physically move it today
23:09 < mischief> only $60 and can be powered by a single usb-c cable for thunderbolt, or by usb3 + hdmi https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BTSFVMLV
23:10 < mischief> no batter but it's pretty thin and light
23:11 < riceandbeans> I don't do amazon, but thanks. tcpdump needs more info because there is a crap ton of broadcast noise on this network from stupid devices that I wish weren't on my network
23:12 < riceandbeans> But the veb is definitely showing traffic
23:12 < mischief> filter for dhcp?
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23:25 < riceandbeans> mischief: even bigger news, if I plug freebsd into openbsd and try to dhclient, it now crashes the router and breaks the openbsd interfaces
23:25 < riceandbeans> So omething in the config is very wrong 
23:27 < mischief> kernel panic?
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23:27 < mischief> oh, you mean your upstream router broke?
23:27 < riceandbeans> The ISP router/modem just dies and reboots itself
23:27 < riceandbeans> The openbsd system says all the interfaces are busy and can't turn any odown
23:28 < mischief> time to defenestrate it and replace it with openbsd :-)
23:28 < riceandbeans> I must have DoSed it somehow
23:29 < riceandbeans> If I could replace it with openbsd I would
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--- Log closed Sun Feb 02 00:00:31 2025