--- Log opened Wed Feb 05 00:00:01 2025
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00:11 < vortexx> that risc-v mainboard for the framework laptop sounds cool but only if drivers are available
00:11 < vortexx> probably best as a second mainboard that you swap in and out
00:11 < vortexx> btw Dell XPS 13 laptops can be ordered without Intel ME, at least in Europe
00:12 < vortexx> and they run OpenBSD just fine, just pricey since ultrabooks
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00:52 < Moon_Rabbit> I don't trust the "no Intel ME" CPUs
00:52 < Moon_Rabbit> I looked at Framework but it's way overpriced for what it is and the modules seem dumb
00:52 < Moon_Rabbit> There is another Riscv laptop I forget the name of but I passed up on it because the battery that came with it will only last about an hour
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01:03 < vortexx> Moon_Rabbit: you pay more for repairability
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01:03 < Moon_Rabbit> past experience has taught me that in 10 years no one will be selling parts that aren't from the used bin
01:05 < vortexx> well for a company that started a few years ago they're managing pretty well
01:06 < vortexx> and maybe maybe not they'll make it ten years
01:06 < Moon_Rabbit> let me know when it's $300
01:06 < vortexx> yeah it's not your market
01:06 < vortexx> nothing at 300$ is repairable, you're just looking for throwaway
01:07 < vortexx> 300$ used to be netbooks
01:07 < vortexx> look how well they worked out
01:08 < Moon_Rabbit> The thinkpad I bought for $300 last year is repairable provided you know how to solder
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01:16 < thrig> some computers are more repairable than others
01:17 < anelli> i got a t60 for around 60$ lol
01:18 < thrig> ideally this might be regulated for better long-term repairs and maybe less ewaste? but that's in some other timeline with fewer goatees
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01:29 < Bradipo> Is there anything better to use for graphing trends than rrdtool?
01:30 < Bradipo> Anything in base? :-)
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01:45 < thrig> usually folks put graphite or something on top of rrdtool
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01:49 < Bradipo> I've never used graphite before... I wonder if it's worth the time investment over just a simple rrdtool with a shell script to generate graphics.
01:50 < thrig> probably in a larger group where folks expect graphite and not alien shell scripts
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07:34 < admin1234> hi
07:34 < admin1234> https://medium.com/@oowae5a/openbsd-vs-linux-for-ruby-on-rails-c3bb40791632 thoughts?
07:34 < admin1234> vastly improved over the last time i shared it
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07:43 < pardis> yet it still talks about rails
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10:58 < Posterdati> hi
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11:43 < metala> hi
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16:42 < aade77> Hi folks. Hope all is well. I am trying to use an Intel X710 with 10Gbit SFPs for a firewall. I'm having a hard time pushing it more than ~6Gbit however. Can't seem to find much of tuning that can be done. Is this considered normal?
16:43 < phy1729> You might try -current. There's been lots of unlocking activity
16:43 < jhuhn> aade77: what do you use for testing? what's your chip?
16:44 < jhuhn> s/chip/cpu/
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16:44 < aade77> It's a Xeon E-2300 something, 8 core. I also have tried a Pentium 7400, 2 core. No significant difference.
16:45 < Bradipo> And more specifically, what are you testing?  Are you testing the ability for the firewall to filter and forward packets?  Or are you testing the firewalls ability to serve packets to/from the firewall proper?
16:45 < aade77> Yeah, I am considering current. I figured I'd ask here in case people have run into this before and if so, what the issue might be.
16:45 < Bradipo> e.g. if you setup iperf3 on the firewall, you aren't really testing the firewall qua firewall, but rather as a server.
16:46 < aade77> Bradipo: I am testing throughput. Very small ruleset.
16:46 < jhuhn> aade77: OpenBSD is not really good for single stream fowarding performance. In a real world example you don't have a single stream, so it depends how you're testing your setup
16:46 < aade77> But for completeness, iperf3 shows similar results.
16:47 < jhuhn> try iperf3 with 4 streams
16:47 < aade77> jhuhn: I'm testing with varying numbers of TCP connections. Seems that the aggregate number always ends up around ~6.5Gbits.
16:48 < Bradipo> Testing throughput from where to where?
16:48 < jhuhn> how does the usage of the softnes processes look like while testing? doas top -S
16:48 < jhuhn> softnet
16:51 < aade77> Bradipo: several setups. One is through an ISP with a 10Gbit link. Another allows for 25Gbit. I have also tested on a LAN with 10Gbit, between two OpenBSD pf firewalls with nodes behind each. Then with one OpenBSD and a FreeBSD firewall. With two FreeBSD firewalls, I can saturate the line. CPU doesn't seem to matter.
16:52 < aade77> jhuhn: I've been trying to keep up on that, but I can't see anything alarming. I mean obviously there's load, but nothing super significant.
16:52 < Bradipo> So you have HOST <==> FW <==> HOST ?
16:52 < Bradipo> Where you are communicating HOST to HOST, not HOST to FW?
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16:53 < Bradipo> Or are you just testing HOST <==> FW?
16:53 < aade77> I have tried host<->fw<->fw<->host, host<->fw<->host and openbsd<->openbsd (iperf)
16:53 < Bradipo> Ahh, ok.
16:54 < Bradipo> You might scour the misc@ mailing list archives for ideas.
16:54 < Bradipo> But generally I don't know that there are many knobs to tweak.
16:54 < aade77> Whatever I try, I seem to get stuck at ~6.5Gbits and I am then at the end of it all.
16:54 < jhuhn> aade77: softnet is hardcoded to just 4 threads, you could try increase the number of softnet threads in code
16:55 < jhuhn> i solved it by throwing a faster cpu at the problem
16:55 < aade77> The ix driver, which is for the X550 cards pushes the card to line rate. But that's RJ45 and I can't use that.
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16:56 < aade77> jhuhn: Like a very much bigger CPU? Because my next option up is a "real" Xeon or an Epyc.
16:57 < jhuhn> aade77: from dmesg: cpu0: AMD Ryzen 7 9700X 8-Core Processor, 3792.99 MHz
16:57 < jhuhn> I'm using the bnxt(4) driver (P225p card)
16:57 < aade77> Bradipo: yeah maybe I should do that. Perhaps the ixl driver doesn't get enough love. Before I bother misc however, I will try out -current.
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16:59 < aade77> jhuhn: Yeah, that's also an option. I don't own Intel stock, I just assumed it would be a good card to use with a fairly large installed base.
17:00 < aade77> P225p is based on which Broadcom chip do you know?
17:01 < jhuhn> aade77: don't know sorry
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17:01 < aade77> If it's BCM7414, then HPE should have one that would work.
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17:02 < aade77> Also, I haven't tried the X810 either
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17:03 < jhuhn> if the softnet processes don't max out while forwarding traffic, trying another network card could be a good idea
17:04 < aade77> That's probably the least expensive option at this point.
17:04 < jhuhn> also you could try to build OpenBSD on your own and change the number of softnet processes to the number of cores. Could bring some improvement too
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17:05 < aade77> Judging from the manual for ixl(4), it's an OpenBSD home grown driver. So quite likely that without binary blobs from Intel that it might not be fully tuned.
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17:07 < aade77> One thing that was sort of funny is that when I ran on FW 6.01 (stock Intel) I could run a single TCP connection at ~6Gbits. When I upgraded to 9.57 (latest Intel) I got about ~2Gbits, but if I added more TCP connections at that point it would run up and stuff ~6.5Gbits. Some sort of glass ceiling.
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17:08 < aade77> The ix(4) driver says at the bottom of the manual that it is a ported Intel driver.
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17:17 < aade77> jhuhn: I've ordered a couple Broadcom cards now, we'll see when they show up.
17:19 < Bradipo> Make sure you come back and report how your testing goes with the new cards.
17:19 < aade77> Appreciate everyone's help in here. I think I'm pretty much stuck with throwing hardware at this at this point.\
17:19 < Bradipo> Well, you could always contribute code to OpenBSD to improve it. :-)
17:19 < Bradipo> As you mentioned, you were able to saturate with FreeBSD...
17:20 < aade77> I will. At this point I have ancillary evidence that points toward the driver.
17:20 < thrig> trebuchet excel at throwing hardware
17:21 < aade77> Heh.
17:21 < Bradipo> That would be fun, but to throw a server would require a fairly large trebuchet.
17:21 < aade77> Yes, at this rate I am chucking hardware out the window.
17:21 < thrig> that's defenestration
17:21 < Bradipo> I suppose a small 6 oz network card would be doable with a small trebuchet.
17:22 < aade77> Yes, perhaps even 3D printable.
17:23 < aade77> I am going to try using a DL360 also, just for kicks.
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17:23 < Bradipo> You'll need a fairly massive trebuchet for a DL360.
17:24 < aade77> We shall see.
17:24 < aade77> At this point I feel like stuffing these machines with C4 and let it rip.
17:25 < Bradipo> Why not do both?  Stuff it with C4 and then launch with trebuchet?
17:25 < aade77> Or shoot at them with a .50 cal.
17:25 < Bradipo> And try to shoot it with a .50 cal while in flight!
17:26 < aade77> I've spent way too much time on this. All because I want to make sure there's no Linnex on the firewalls.
17:27 < aade77> I refuse to give up.
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17:30 < aade77> Well, it's not just being anti-Leehnucks, it's also to make things better. Perhaps the Lord will grant me success.
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17:36 < Bradipo> I just prefer OpenBSD.
17:38 < aade77> I used to prefer Solaris. There is no more Solaris and good hardware, so now I have to use PCs. I did Linux in the late 90's and got the t-shirt. So now I do OpenBSD because it at least is innovative.
17:39 < aade77> Linux is not usable anymore. And as I have to explain to young people all the time: od > Python
17:42 < Bradipo> I had a preference for Solaris in the mid '90s.  Used Linux for a while and then discovered OpenBSD.
17:43 < Bradipo> I'm curious about the statement that od > Python. lol.
17:45 < aade77> Oh the kids these days, use Python for everything. I try to tell them to learn C and they look at me as a graybeard.
17:48 < aade77> od is amazing, always was. It can dump anything to the terminal. We used to survive just fine without Python.
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17:48 < Bradipo> Yes, I believe that od has more utility than I previously was aware of.
17:48 < Bradipo> The man page is alway a bit cryptic to me for some reason.
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17:49 < aade77> The OpenBSD one is perhaps a little specific, but if you know what you want it's very clear.
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17:50 < Bradipo> Yes, I've seen some pretty clever od commands littered on www pages.
17:50 < aade77> And awk...
17:50 < aade77> omg
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17:50 < Bradipo> Yeah, well, I use awk all the time.
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17:51 < aade77> It's amazing.
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17:53 < aade> The AT&T bumper sticker from yesteryear: "Reach out and grep someone."
17:53 < Bradipo> It can make it easy to analyze simple data.
17:53 < Bradipo> Haha.
17:54 < aade> The Linuceans would do well to study where they copied their stuff from.
17:54 < user71> what do you mean, copied?
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17:55 < aade> And that's my queue, back to work. Appreciate everything, I'll make sure to let you know how it goes.
17:58 < Bradipo> My most recent use of awk is to break down timestamped entries by the minute.
17:59 < Bradipo> Where lines have a timestamp of the form "2025-02-05 17:58:33 ..."
17:59 < Bradipo> awk '{ split($2,t,":"); s = sprintf("%s-%s", $1, t[1]); a[s]++ } END { for (b in a) printf("%5d\t%s\n", a[b], b) }' | sort -k 2
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17:59 < Bradipo> So I can see how many things happened in a given minute of the log.
17:59 < Bradipo> aade: I think you mean cue, not queue. :-)
18:00 < Bradipo> Unless you were really waiting in a queue...
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19:28 < Bradipo> Options for typesetting a book.  LaTeX, LyX, TeX, Libreoffice... any other noteworthy contenders?
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19:35 < TommyC> What type of book is it? If it's a lengthy PhD or even a short research paper I stick with LaTeX. If you're trying to say, write an O'Reilly book or something like that, asciidoc and last and hopefully the least desired, DocBook.
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19:38 < Bradipo> Well, looking for something that someone else can use easily.  For me, I just use TeX. :-)
19:38 < Bradipo> LyX is a decent UI, but it doesn't allow for easy customization of the output using plain TeX.
19:39 < Bradipo> There's calibre, but it looks like it's for ebooks.
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19:39 < TommyC> Asciidoc is pretty easy-to-use (imo).
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19:40 < Bradipo> I suppose I should have prefaced that it would be ideal if it had a UI.
19:40 < Bradipo> Hmm, looks like asciidoc does have a UI.
19:41 < TommyC> vim, emacs, notepad.exe, so many UI's available across many operating systems AND architectures!
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19:41 < Bradipo> Yeah, for me, it's vi(1).
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19:46 < eea> vim is portable...
19:47 < eea> vi can make use of the ~/.vimrc 
19:47 < Bradipo> I just use ~/.exrc
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20:01 < thrig> vim complains about stuff in my .exrc
20:01 < BasketCase> how could anyone put notepad.exe in that list?
20:02 < thrig> meanwhile some discord user was trying to claim that vi wasn't a general purpose text editor
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20:04 < BasketCase> what does "general purpose text editor" even mean?  who uses plain text files for anything not more complicated than simply text?
20:04 < thrig> I suspect they merely had a muffler up their carseat interface when it comes to vi
20:04 < Bradipo> "simply text" eh, nice one.
20:04 < sibiria> <presses i>everyone does
20:05 < sibiria> <tries to exit fucking application>
20:05 < sibiria> regular people can be forgiven for not wanting to put up with that hassle for just writing some text
20:05 < sibiria> if you pit vi against nano, the latter clearly comes out the winner of being the more general purpose text editor
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20:06 < lts> General purpose is means that it is found suitable for all purposes and tasks. Compare to Iain Banks and General Systems Vehicle
20:06 < Bradipo> And most "regular" people cannot be bother to learn how to drive care with a stick shift (aka manual clutch) either.
20:06 < BasketCase> nano was made for typing emails.  it works well for that.
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20:07 < thrig> pico was, nano just open sauced pico, including the "corrupt files with hard wraps by default"
20:07 < Bradipo> And I can Engrish today.  s/bother/bothered;s/care/car/
20:07 < BasketCase> yep, though I call that --please-don't-corrupt-my-files
20:07 < sibiria> lts: like constructing json and xml content, which is plain text. suitable? perhaps. ideal? clearly not
20:07 < Bradipo> Of the two, I would rather cope with JSON though.
20:08 < sibiria> as soon as the ideal interaction is to JUST get to write some text without anything getting in the way, it's no longer an ideal tool
20:08 < sibiria> incidentally that ticks the box for about a million regular computer users
20:09 < sibiria> more so than needing, well, almost any of the extra stuff vi and emacs brings to the table
20:10 < Bradipo> I'm not convinced.
20:10 < Bradipo> Any editor is going to have an "interface" to learn.
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20:10 < sibiria> with nano and notepad, the immediate interface is to just start it, and you can write and edit
20:10 < Bradipo> Editing doesn't happy magically.  Brain has to engage. Synapses have to fire.  Fingers have to press the right magical buttons to make the editor do more than can a monkey.
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20:10 < sibiria> with vi, the most common threshold is to understand that you need to enter insert mode
20:11 < sibiria> instant show-stopper for a lot of regular users
20:11 < Bradipo> Yeah, but how is that any different than someone who has to learn how to press a clutch and move a stick to drive a car?
20:11 < Bradipo> One cannot just jump in and drive, even though the sole purpose of a car is to be driven.
20:11 < sibiria> you're comparing a digital pen and paper with a car. not sure it's the best example :D
20:12 < Bradipo> Yeah, analogies are always tricky.
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20:12 < Bradipo> But I think it's not such a terrible analogy.
20:12 < Bradipo> Both automatic and manual cars will allow you to get from point A to point B.
20:13 < thrig> https://xkcd.com/763/
20:13 < sibiria> a hex editor will allow you to write text, aka get from point A to point B
20:13 < Bradipo> But unless you press in the clutch while turning over the engine in a manual, you're in for an unusual start.
20:13 < sibiria> not exactly the friendliest tool for it, but...
20:14 < Bradipo> thrig: That is so apropos.
20:14 < Bradipo> How many people I know who will take a picture, embed it in a document, and then email the document, rather than just sending the image!
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20:20 < sibiria> those are the people you give nano to, instead of vi, when they're asking for a quick way to edit text
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--- Log closed Thu Feb 06 00:00:02 2025