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03:35 < passstab> Do most of you use Irssi?
03:37 < eax_> passstab: i don't. i use senpai. before that weechat. however irssi is a phenomenal client
03:41 < zwr> just /ctcp clientinfo everyone
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04:32 < musica> eax_: just installed senpai, thx for the rec. Will try this for a bit instead of irssi.
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04:47 < eax_> musica: you're welcome
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04:53 < ssm_> Any ideas on how to get the jh7110 to load bsd.rd or bsd.mp with u-boot? It's very similar to a starfive visionfive 2, which is already supported, but the instructions for installing a kernel are very linux-specific: https://github.com/DC-DeepComputing/Framework/blob/main/FML13V01/How%20to%20Replace%20the%20Kernel%20with%20DC-Linux%20on%20DC-ROMA%20RISC-V%20Mainboard%20for%20Framework%20Laptop%2013.pdf
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04:57 < ssm_> I tried shoving bsd and bsd.rd into the vfat efi partition on the provided sdcard.img, as well as the correct dtb from the sysutils/dtb package, and the bootefix64.efi from an openbsd ftp mirror, but I'm not getting anywhere and I lack the hardware for a serial connection, so I'm just firing shots in the dark
04:57 < ssm_> maybe there's a way to make a network connection to get console access to u-boot's monitor, still trying stuff
05:08 < ssm_> s/bootefix68/bootrisv64.efi/
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05:09 < ssm_> s/ris/&c
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05:19 < mischief> you almost certainly want a serial connection
05:20 < mischief> it was very helpful when playing with my milk-v megrez..
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05:43 < ssm_> mischief: know where I can get one? there is an example here, but they just refer to it as a "serial tool" with no further description https://github.com/DC-DeepComputing/Framework/blob/main/FML13V01/Framework%20Serial%20Port%20Connection%20Guide.pdf
05:44 < ssm_> also something about a "multifunctional type-C data cable" which I've never heard of
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05:49 < mischief> what they did there is somewhat annoying, but you can get those parts for <$20
05:49 < mischief> i suppose they just mean a cable with all of the data lines connected
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13:44 < P-NuT> Hi all. I love the OpenBSD philosophy and love it's simple minimal way of doing things but I had a thought the other day about the security value it provides. 
13:44 < P-NuT> If I have a rust web application that I run on linux and on OpenBSD, what security benefit does OpenBSD buy me, if any? 
13:45 < P-NuT> Or am i thinking about this in the wrong way entirely, and any benefit is actually in the minimal approach the OS uses by default?
13:48 < vortexx> I've tested OpenBSD 7.6 on Win11 23H2 and I get network access, I guess it's 24H2 that's an issue atm. Have to wait for emmanuelux to show up
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14:11 < xse> P-NuT: benefits/values are mainly subjective and/or depend on what you actually do - i personally don't care much about the secutiry bits, they're welcome of course but i use openbsd because it's simple/easy and does not require much thoughts/tweaking/maintenance for my usecases
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14:44 < Lucas_> P-NuT: I'd say that OpenBSD is simple, but not minimal
14:45 < P-NuT> I don't mean limited in functionality, I mean, unlike ubuntu for example, it comes with what you need and you can then build up from there rather than the kitchen sink from the start
14:46 < Lucas_> also you wouldn't get any special security benefit by running your Rust program in OpenBSD (other than the baseline, which _is_ better than Linux), and you'll get a lot of headaches
14:47 < Lucas_> the minimal stuff, like eigrpd, ospfd, ospf6d, ripd, rip6d and dvmrpd
14:47 < Lucas_> :D
14:47 < Lucas_> you totally need an almost full suite of routing daemons
14:47 < Lucas_> the only thing missing is IS-IS
14:52 < Lucas_> btw, you don't have rustup or rust nightly in OpenBSD, that's why I consider you'll get a lot of headaches
14:52 < Lucas_> porting Rust stuff into OpenBSD does have some difficulties
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14:55 < pardis> there are some security features in the kernel that you will get no matter what you run on OpenBSD, but how significant that is depends heavily on your use case
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15:09 < xse> aww after removing all log options from inside a relayd protocol the global 'log connection' one is still quite talkative https://tmp.krkrkr.org/relayd.log
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15:32 < eax_> P-NuT: Rust isn't the security taj mahal that you seem to think (think supply chain attacks). For your web application, OpenBSD gives you pledge & unveil, and since OpenBSD has fewer components than Linux -> smaller attack surface.
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15:33 < pardis> think of OpenBSD as a Swiss army knife
15:34 < pardis> if you use it right, it can be a very flexible and powerful tool
15:34 < pardis> but if you just buy a Swiss army knife and leave it in a drawer somewhere, it won't make your life any better
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15:34 < eax_> P-NuT: not to mention OpenBSD's W^X, ASLR, KARL, RETGUARD are safety memory protections at the kernel level
15:34 < eax_> pardis: +1
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15:41 < P-NuT> eax_: I dont see rust as a taj mahal but I do think it's good for memory safety.
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15:43 < P-NuT> eax_: Thanks, this kind of detail is what I was looking for. 
15:43 < P-NuT> Does the documentation cover all of the features like W^X, ASLR, KARL, RETGUARD, etc? 
15:44 < IcePic> sort of
15:45 < pardis> W^X probably doesn't matter much here
15:45 < pardis> either your application violates W^X or it doesn't
15:45 < IcePic> Its not that its all a secret or anything, but some are just compiler enhancements that are added systemwide 
15:45 < pardis> if it doesn't, it doesn't matter which OS you use, and if it does, W^X will just mean it doesn't run on OpenBSD at all
15:45 < pardis> (at least without WXNEEDED)
15:46 < pardis> and KARL may or may not be of any value depending on whether kernel exploits specifically are a concern for you
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15:47 < pardis> if you are running one application, and all of your sensitive data is there, then a kernel exploit won't really give an attacker much more than an application exploit would
15:47 < IcePic> openbsd is quite a hostile environment for programs, and it is like that by design. If it can stay within its boundaries it runs fine, but if it tries to break out (by bad design or by attack) it will die
15:48 < eax_> P-NuT: man 2 mmap; man 2 execve; man 8 config; man 2 pledge; man 2 unveil
15:49 < IcePic> man clang-local also holds a few hints on changes in openbsd
15:50 < IcePic> (man gcc-local on gcc-platforms, though they are few on obsd now)
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15:51 < phy1729> There are crates to use pledge and unveil in rust and that could help and is OpenBSD specific
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15:53 < IcePic> some of all of the protections that openbsd enables by default are of course available on other OSes, but behind sysctls or flags or just not enabled, so they might not be unique for obsd at all, but here they are on at least
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16:01 < oldlaptop> <pardis> if it doesn't, it doesn't matter which OS you use, and if it does, W^X will just mean it doesn't run on OpenBSD at all
16:01 < oldlaptop> ISTR part of the W^X deal (and perhaps this has since been copied on other systems) twenty years ago was that it's *possible* to have a process that maps no W&X memory in the first place - previously things like ld.so would themselves violate the policy
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16:01 < miah> certainly not evenly or fully distributed in linux distros
16:02 < miah> not even guaranteed consistency between manpages and installed software on linux as man-pages is its own distinct project separate from the tools themselves
16:03 < oldlaptop> The 'separate' linux-man-pages project covers mostly C library functions (sections 2 and 3), not tools (sections 1 and 8).
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16:04 < miah> even then, its only correct some of the time
16:05 < oldlaptop> (It is of course still 'separate' from the projects that write the handful of libcs semi-commonly used on linux, but still written with reasonable attention to and coordination with them, and by its nature section 2 is describing linux, not the C library - for it to be otherwise is really a bug in the C library)
16:06 < miah> im really appreciative that this isn't a issue in openbsd; i've found the manuals all to be accurate
16:06 < oldlaptop> Generally speaking, manual pages in sections 1 and 8 (and 6, I suppose) *do* in fact come with the tool(s) they're describing.
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16:07 < oldlaptop> (Many of them on gnu systems are crummy by design, because gnu does not manpage.)
16:07 < miah> right, infopages are utter shite
16:07 < thrig> I heard a rumor that Debian had been porting things to man pages
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16:08 < oldlaptop> an awful lot of random things have manpages (even if they're pretty sparse) for the sole reason that a debian mantainer wrote one, to comply with debian's (admirable) policy that all installed binaries must have manual pages, and sent it upstream
16:09 < miah> im thankful
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16:11 < oldlaptop> anyhow: linux-man-pages itself is pretty darn good, it's one of the brighter spots in documentation on your typical linux system (one could argue about coverage of specific functions that are easy to misuse and/or difficult to use correctly)
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16:25 < P-NuT> Just to circle back to the security point, if using strongswan with an identical config on ubuntu and OpenBSD, would there be any securoty benfit to using OpenBSD?
16:25 < P-NuT> Or are they just the same as it's software not OS in that case. 
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16:27 < miah> i would probably just trust the openbsd ipsec implementation more than linux
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16:28 < miah> but its still ipsec at the end of the day
16:29 < P-NuT> Interesting. Why specifically would you say that and do you have any evidence to back that claim up? 
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16:30 < miah> i trust the openbsd maintainers to care more about their code because that is a goal of the project. evidence? meh. you're not paying me for these responses
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16:36 < P-NuT> I have a fiver here if you'd like. 
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16:38 < Bradipo> The fact is, very few people are actually qualified to argue the security of any system.
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16:42 < sibiria> P-NuT: openbsd's iked/ipsec implementation was the subject of a claimed attack and following that a code audit. not sure if strongswan has been audited
16:42 < P-NuT> Ooooh great. So you have any links to that? I'd love to read it. 
16:42 < sibiria> i think the general stance is that it's "safer" on openbsd because of all the surrounding belts and suspenders for security
16:43 < sibiria> P-NuT: no i don't have any saved links for that. this was mid 2000s or so. but the discussions are saved on the mailing lists and i think there may have been an article or two about it
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16:44 < oldlaptop> specifically it was subject to a claimed *backdoor* (or as it would be called today a "supply chain attack" - don't think anyone was using that phrase 20 yars ago)
16:44 < oldlaptop> they found some bugs, but no backdoor
16:45 < sibiria> P-NuT: search for "gregory perry openbsd"
16:45 < sibiria> or maybe greg perry, can't recall
16:45 < oldlaptop> I'd rather use wireguard today, mainly because it's so much simpler and therefore easier, but another consequence of it being so much simpler is that there's a lot less to hide backdoors in.
16:46 < sibiria> if i remember the ordeal correctly, the person was a law enforcement agent of some sort, and his claim was that openbsd was considered a target for it though the plans never came to fruition
16:46 < oldlaptop> (ipsec has Too Many Protocols and Too Many Acronyms and Too Many Gotchas and even Too Many Separate Choices Of Daemons To Manage It, In OpenBSD Alone)
16:46 < sibiria> the developers took the safer road and audited things anyway. nothing was found
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16:47 < P-NuT> I agree, but wireguard does not specifically contain any authorisation mechanism that specifically logs "user A logged in at x time" and because of this big corp and gov still prefer to use IKEv2.
16:48 < P-NuT> The other reason is that wireguard uses a specific cipher that you can't change and big corp / gov would rather use something else depending on where you live. 
16:48 < sibiria> i think it's mainly a case of "IpSeC iS EnTeRpRiSe" and cultural inertia
16:48 < oldlaptop> IPSec is also an Official Internet Standard, which is actually a lot of the problem
16:49 < Bradipo> P-NuT: In other words, they want to decrease the security so they can spy on the traffic?
16:49 < P-NuT> So IKEv2 for site to site and SSL for endpoint VPN is a pretty widely used paradigm. Wireguard is still the "new" kid on the block for copr/gov.
16:49 < oldlaptop> that wouldn't make much sense in this context (where the "big corp / gov" is operating the VPN)
16:50 < P-NuT> Bradipo: No, it's because it's tried and tested, has been around for years and the people who knw about security really know how to configure IKEv2 correctly. 
16:51 < P-NuT> oldlaptop: why would it not make sense? 
16:53 < oldlaptop> in reply specifically to Bradipo; if "they" operate the VPN, "they" can manage it (I hesitate even to say "spy on" - how can you spy on yourself/your own organization?) however they want, and do not need to use the Illuminati black helicopters to secretly make it less secure.
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16:56 < P-NuT> exacly. 
16:56 < oldlaptop> institutional requirements that "you must use X cipher" tend instead to be misguided efforts to improve security - "you must use this approved secure cipher" - that end up devolving to "This specific acronym is on the FIPS list of acceptable acronyms, whereas this more secure alternative has not been reviewed by the Bureau of Molasses and is therefore not approved."
16:57 < P-NuT> oldlaptop: Sounds like you've been there too. :-D
16:58 < oldlaptop> in short: Hanlon's Razor :|
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17:10 < Bradipo> Let me clarify, what I meant was that all governments want their communications to be as secure as possible, but at the same time they want others to use weaker crypto systems so that they can spy.
17:11 < Bradipo> That the operator of a given VPN can or cannot access the traffic isn't the point.
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17:16 < sibiria> this may or may not be the reason why NSA recommends the entire world to go with AES and RSA while they themselves have a large suite of cryptography that nobody knows anything about
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17:16 < sibiria> complete insight into everyone's communications are after all the foundation of their entire organization
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17:50 < P-NuT> sibiria: maybe, but I think the more probable answer is that the recommended ciphers have been very thoroughly vetted and checked by MULTIPLE governments not just the US and thats why (with the exception of DH14 and 19) everyone uses them. 
17:51 < P-NuT> ....and checked my security researchers and professionals also.
17:52 < P-NuT> Not sure I believe everything I can't prove and, for now, I trust the math. 
17:52 < P-NuT> having said that though, the new quantum ciphers have just been released and it's only a matter of time before they are implemented. 
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18:00 < Lucas_> P-NuT: for IPsec in OpenBSD, I recommend iked vs other implementations, as it's developed in OpenBSD itself and already part of base
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18:00 < P-NuT> even over strongswan? 
18:00 < Lucas_> yes
18:01 < P-NuT> Cool, thanks. 
18:02 < Lucas_> as for a good pseudo argument for trusting the OpenBSD IPsec stack better than Linux, OpenBSD created the very first open source IPsec implementation, and has been part of the OS since 2001-2002.
18:02 < Lucas_> oh wow, 1997
18:02 < Lucas_> https://www.openbsd.org/innovations.html the very first item
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18:11 < k0ga> Lucas_: being the first is not always a good thing ;)
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18:44 < miah> but its had longer time to go through audits
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23:08 < ssm_> is openbsd.i2p (darknet page) official? download links just lead to openbsd.org
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23:10 < uwharrie> not seeing a reference to it anywhere in the official site's contents
23:11 < ssm_> maybe I'll ask in misc@ if I care enough
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23:12 < ssm_> but it's basically just a 1:1 copy of the whole www cvs source from what I can tell
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23:19 < uwharrie> May be something Solene set up
23:20 < uwharrie> https://dataswamp.org/~solene/2024-05-25-openbsd-privacy-friendly-mirror.html#_Conclusion
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 21 00:00:24 2025