--- Log opened Wed Mar 05 00:00:40 2025
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00:04 < mischief> yay, my uconsole arrived
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00:13 < dvl> mischief: one of these? https://www.clockworkpi.com/uconsole
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00:35 < mischief> dvl: that's right.
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00:35 < mischief> at some point i'll try the openbsd arm image, but i assume it will not work too well out of the box..
00:35 < dvl> mischief: never heard of them, but it looks interesting
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00:41 < Bradipo> Haha, the logos at the bottom of the page indicate that the tested LaTeX on the uconsole.
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02:15 < Bradipo> Which modern laptop is safest to try with OpenBSD?  Lenovo?
02:17 < burley> Bradipo: Most people seem to use thinkpads. How modern are you looking to go? Generally slightly older laptops are better supported.
02:17 < Bradipo> https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadp/thinkpad-p16s-gen-2-16-inch-amd-mobile-workstation/len101t0075?sortBy=Recommended#tech_specs
02:17 < Bradipo> That modern. :-)
02:18 < Bradipo> It claims to work with Linux, so that's a bonus, but my only question is the video adapter.
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02:28 < pardis> be careful with the wifi too
02:28 < pardis> some recent ThinkPads no longer ship with Intel wifi
02:29 < pardis> oh indeed, this one has a Qualcomm
02:30 < pardis> my experience (running OpenBSD on a then-brand-new AMD ThinkPad around 5 years ago) was that support for AMD integrated graphics is generally good
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02:44 < ssm_> Bradipo: T60p works good
02:44 < ssm_> can run openmw at about 15 fps
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02:55 < Bradipo> T60p is fairly old these days?
02:56 < ssm_> old is just a number
02:56 < Bradipo> Says it's no longer available.
02:56 < ssm_> :(
02:56 < Bradipo> Yes, the T60p does look like a nice laptop.
02:57 < ssm_> of all the thinkpads I had, it was the best. dGPU in mine went bad, which seems to be a common(?) problem
02:57 < ssm_> T60 is probably more reliable, but gpu is very anemic
02:57 < tommyrot> why was it the best then?
02:58 < ssm_> shitposting aside, framework laptop works pretty well after several years
02:58 < Bradipo> I still run OpenBSD on a ThinkPad 240.
02:59 < ssm_> I picked up the riscv64 deep computing board for my framework, but I can't figure out how to get it to boot and the docs are bad
03:00 < ssm_> it's basically just a VisionFive 2 though so it should hopefully Just Work once I get the u-boot figured out
03:01 < psychonate> I'm connected from a VF2 right now :)
03:02 < Bradipo> Impressive, I didn't know OpenBSD ran on CNC machines.
03:02 < psychonate> I bought it early last year, played around with it a bit, and just got it out again yesterday.
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03:05 < psychonate> For the VF2, I mostly followed https://gist.github.com/csgordon/74658096f7838382b40bd64e11f6983e.
03:05 < psychonate> and the comments
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03:07 < ssm_> psychonate: what serial tool did you use? I'm struggling to find one
03:07 < psychonate> Except somehow my EFI FS was empty on my installation disk (nvme), so I had boot the installation image again and copy the files over manually, and the dtb files
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03:07 < psychonate> What do you mean "serial tool"?
03:08 < Bradipo> Are there decent WWAN cards that work with OpenBSD?
03:08 < ssm_> usb to ttl
03:08 < psychonate> Ohhh, it may be in my order history. I'll see if I can check.
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03:13 < psychonate> I believe it was "DSD TECH SH-U09G USB to TTL Serial Cable Built-in FTDI FT232RL IC 1.8M/5.9FT"
03:15 < ssm_> yeah they call them FTDI's as well
03:16 < psychonate> It's connected to my FreeBSD desktop sitting beside the VF2. Works fine with that at least.
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03:18 < psychonate> For what it's worth, I just did a fresh install of 7.6 on the VF2 today, because I wanted encryption. That worked fine, minus the caveat I mentioned about the EFI system partition.
03:19 < Bradipo> What architecture is VF2?
03:20 < psychonate> Just used the standard install76.img for riscv64
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03:20 < Bradipo> Ok, so risc64.
03:20 < psychonate> RISCV64
03:21 < Bradipo> Oops, I missed a letter.
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03:21 < psychonate> Honestly, I mainly just bought it on a whim early last year. I think I mostly just wanted to see if I could get something running on it, for the heck of it.
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03:23 < psychonate> Then yesterday I was thinking, yeah, OpenBSD was running fine on it, I should power it on again and run irssi in tmux indefinitely. It's annoying reconnecting to Libera in the middle of a conversation. So, here am I am heh
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05:58 < Moon_Rabbit> How hard would it be to port pledge and unveil over to NetBSD or FreeBSD
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06:58 < IcePic> Moon_Rabbit: I don't think it would be super hard to make it work, it is "just" a certain amount of checks done at syscall time, the hard work is probably to get it used in base programs and ports, after getting it accepted by the projects
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07:13 < CosmicDJ> also FreeBSD has capsicum already, expect some resistance
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07:30 < ssm_> my highly scientific test of echo `find /usr/ports -name Makefile -mindepth 3 -maxdepth 3 | tee /tmp/a | xargs -J% grep "uses pledge()" % | wc -l` / `cat /tmp/a | wc -l; rm /tmp/a` \* 100 | bc -l tells me about 1.7% of ports support pledge. misses stuff like x11/kde/whatever because those makefiles are too deep for my command
07:30 < IcePic> then again, there is a wrapper thing to make seccomp in linux work as unveil and pledge
07:30 < IcePic> perhaps one could capsicum something to be similar/same 
07:31 < ssm_> s#cat /tmp/a | wc -l#wc -l /tmp/a#
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07:32 < IcePic> ssm_: even if it is "only" 1.7%, it might be totally great to have xz/unzip/bzip2 and browsers pledged than all versions of .. colorls. So numbers aren't all there is to it.
07:32 < ssm_> major browsers being pledged is definitely good
07:34 < IcePic> just like when seccomp was new, it was only in some few programs, but those were chrome, FF, qemu,docker,openssh and so on, making it work where it has most utility.
07:34 < Moon_Rabbit> my thinking was if I could add it to the kernel myself I could use OpenBSD base system applications on FreeBSD. I don't really care what the FreeBSD project does (I have long term plans to fork away from it)
07:34 < IcePic> where you would be most likely to have untrusted content to manage
07:35 < IcePic> and I believe pledge/tame grew out of "file(1)" looking at possibly bad input, like tcpdump, and wanting to make sure it could not run astray while examining potentially hostile input
07:36 < ssm_> if I had a nickle for every time someone was going to single handedly fork an open source OS, let alone one that contains an entire kernel and userspace ecosystem...
07:36 < ssm_> well, the forking part is easy
07:37 < Moon_Rabbit> Yeah I know but I need an OS to run old Japanese doujin games on (thus PC-98, windows and some Linux emulation required) and having to wrangle FreeBSD while dealing with its bad decisions in a lot of places isn't fun. But it's less annoying than dealing with modern Linux or old Windows. So my hope was in time some people might help me maintain it.
07:39 < Moon_Rabbit> For starters I wanted to get rid of things in FreeBSD's base system that were forked from OpenBSD and replace them with the current OpenBSD stuff. Hence why I want to port over pledge
07:41 < ssm_> any reason you wouldn't use netbsd for this? netbsd has wine, albeit without any multilib (I don't think freebsd has multilib either though?). either way, sounds like your games should run in a 32-bit chroot fine regardless
07:42 < Moon_Rabbit> In a word: bhyve
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07:43 < Moon_Rabbit> In isn't just games. It's software as well. Multimedia creation/production and consumption
07:44 < ssm_> I'm more of a ssh-x11-forwarding-on-vmd-at-2fps kind of guy. I actually had a funny screenshot of steam running inside cwm on an alpine vm, but I deleted it long ago
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07:46 < ssm_> we have games/steamctl now though so no need for that
07:46 < ssm_> and moonlight-qt!
07:47 < Moon_Rabbit> I'm surprised there isn't more interest in s6 in BSD land
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07:50 < Moon_Rabbit> https://skarnet.org/software/s6/overview.html  I haven't tried to run it on *BSD yet but I had it running on a Gentoo system for a time and it was really nice. 
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07:54 < Moon_Rabbit> The same guy is working on an IPC protocol as well: https://skarnet.org/software/skabus/  Whenever it's finished I'd like to try to emulate D-Bus using it.
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08:01 < IcePic> found an interesting part from the libska maillist where the dev first goes on a long rant about why obsd is not fun to code against (https://skarnet.org/lists/skaware/0875.html) then follows up with that his idea was wrong and commenting out the bad usage/assumption was the right thing to do 
08:01 < IcePic> https://skarnet.org/lists/skaware/0876.html
08:01 < ssm_> maybe I'm a bad admin but the amount of times I've lost track of a daemon I couldn't easily find again with ps xf or even needed the PID in the first place is exactly 0.
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08:01 < IcePic> ssm_: could be a thing of scaling
08:01 < ssm_> also autohealing daemons is probably bad for numerous reasons
08:02 < IcePic> if you have 1000s of httpd instances, killing the right one could get tricky
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08:02 < ssm_> yeah...
08:02 < IcePic> but yes, if it dies, you might not want to just restart and give attackers another go at trying
08:04 < ssm_> I think autohealing falls in the same category of how openbsd thinks about kernel modules and hard crashes/panics
08:04 < ssm_> makes people ignore bugs
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08:12 < Moon_Rabbit> You don't have to use it. The interesting part of the service database
08:12 < Moon_Rabbit> also yeah the guy is well known to be hard to work with
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08:17 < Moon_Rabbit> by "you don't have to use it" I mean the autohealing thing of course
08:18 < Moon_Rabbit> What he's basically done is re-implement systemd/launchd but with actual modular daemons that you can chain in any way you want.
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13:07 < unpx> Ah, there is still this strange bug on ``pkg_info -Q''. For example, search ``ack'' and you get probably just ``borgbackup'', then search for ``p5-ack'' and you actually get the ``ack package''
13:07 < unpx> I recall this being a problem for packages like py3-*
13:08 < sibiria> try -Qa
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13:11 < sibiria> -aQ* probably
13:12 < sibiria> -Qa might start to look for packages matching 'a'
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13:12 < unpx> sibiria: I was checknig the manual, it works with `-aQ'. Doing with `-Qa' will start listing all packages matching
13:13 < unpx> I guess the latter is also a bug
13:15 < unpx> Or is it specified to do two different thigns?
13:15 < anelli> `-Q a python' is peculiar
13:15 < anelli> wait
13:16 < unpx> -Qa is not the same as -aQ. I wanted -aQ, -Qa does something strange
13:16 < anelli> it shows the long description for some reason
13:16 < sibiria> unpx: -Q just pulls its search term immediately after. it wants to be last if multiple options are presented in one sigil
13:16 < sibiria> -Qa == -Q a
13:16 < anelli> unpx: i don't think it matters anyways cause the arg after -Q is the search string?
13:17 < unpx> oh, so -Qa == -Q since a is ignored and then parses the substring
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13:21 < pardis> neither of those are bugs
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13:26 < unpx> Oks
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13:28 < IcePic> anoncvs.eu will flip a bit up&down due to upgrades
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14:20 < thyssentishman> mischief: I ordered one too and wish to install openbsd on it
14:20 < thyssentishman> let me know how it goes
14:21 < thyssentishman> I still have to wait a little longer for mine
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14:25 < mischief> thyssentishman: i waited about 8 months, so good luck.
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14:30 < ssm_> if pkg_info -aQ is a bug, tar fxz is a bug
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15:58 < mischief> thyssentishman: first attempt, got here. no uart access so no idea how to debug it more. gonna give up for now i think https://i.imgur.com/UmDYehg.jpeg
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16:27 < sibiria> mischief: on some Arm-platforms the basic framebuffer driver works on the console
16:27 < sibiria> try "set tty fb0" on the boot prompt, then "boot"
16:28 < mischief> i'd probably have to wire up boot.conf somehow, because i can't actually type anything
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16:28 < sibiria> none of the USB ports function? i recall that on my old Pine A64, only the "first" USB port would work
16:30 < mischief> i certainly can't type anything on my IBM ultranav to either u-boot or bootaarch64.efi prompt
16:30 < mischief> someone elsewhere said that usb is somehow unpowered at boot and requires kernel support to enable, which i'm inclined to believe since i wasn't able to boot from a usb stick either
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16:35 < sibiria> must vary from one arm-board the other then. my Pine A64 gets keyboard input from one of the USB ports. but i guess you an achieve the result with a modded boot.conf as well
16:35 < sibiria> presuming simplefb(4) works on that board
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17:02 < mischief> sibiria: it's a rpi cm4
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17:03 < mischief> i get output to the hdmi port but not to the tft with openbsd, for example, so it will take some work probably even if i can get something more out of it
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17:19 < xse> i recall that https://github.com/pftf/RPi4 helped me on an rpi4b rev1.5, came with benefits compared to the included uboot - unsure if cm4 is supported
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22:13 < ssm_> what's the deal with the net/bnc port? HOMEPAGE is dead and has been for a long time.
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22:36 < ssm_> I managed to figure out the current version appears to be the same version from 2009 :S   Don't know if it's safe to use
22:37 < sibiria> possibly not. try znc instead
22:37 < Bradipo> qmail is older than that... does that make it unsafe? :-)
22:38 < ssm_> sibiria: I'm already using (and talking to you through) znc, I was just curious what it was
22:38 < ssm_> Bradipo: qmail's codebase is likely much more heavily audited since it's in base
22:38 < Bradipo> qmail is most definitely not in base.
22:39 < Bradipo> In fact, I don't even think there's a port for it anymore.
22:39 < ssm_> conflated qmail and mailx
22:39 < ssm_> s/conflated/confused/
22:40 < ssm_> plan9port says it has qmail
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22:42 < Bradipo> I install it from source anyway.
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23:37 < vortexx> mh there's been a new release of firefox in -stable ports but it's been cranked to v76 of icu4c and that hasn't been cranked in -stable... perhaps an oversight?
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--- Log closed Thu Mar 06 00:00:09 2025