--- Log opened Sat Mar 08 00:00:08 2025
--- Day changed Sat Mar 08 2025
00:00 < mischief> echelon: yes.
00:00 < echelon> thanks
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01:56 < joe9> oldlaptop: thanks.
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06:01 < remiliascarlet> I accidentally rebooted an OpenBSD server, and now when I try to mount to an NFS filesystem, I get this: "NFS Portmap: RPC: Program not registered"
06:02 < remiliascarlet> The `rpcinfo` utility can find my NAS just fine.
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06:04 < remiliascarlet> Fixed it. The problem turned out to be on the NAS side.
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08:35 < debugbsd> Hi, good morning!
08:42 < pardis> ah good, someone to fix all the bugs
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08:44 < debugbsd> yeah, of course :)
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12:01 < getz> can I boot an install image on an usb from boot(8), my laptop cant bios boot from usb only floppy despite having an usb port
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12:35 < debugbsd> did you look for that on google getz? 
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12:36 < getz> well duckduckgo
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12:37 < vortexx> getz: if your system is that old, you're better off installing to a VM, not rebooting but shutdown, and then dd the image to the HDD of your laptop and booting that way
12:37 < getz> I guess it's obvious that the answer is no then as not devices are initialized except those by bios by the time boot(8) is run
12:38 < getz> yeah thats what I did last time, other option is going from 6.6 to 7.6 one release at a time :)
12:40 < anelli> getz: maybe burn to a cd/dvd if the computer has that
12:40 < anelli> burning to floppies sounds fun i need to try it xD
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12:42 < getz> no only floppy with a proprietary connector, it's a thinkpad 240x
12:42 < anelli> rip
12:43 < getz> it's a lovely machine, maybe not the snappiest
12:43 < anelli> getz: i remember installing obsd on an ssd via usb <-> sata adapter from a different computer
12:43 < anelli> and then plugging it into the target machine
12:44 < anelli> my server freezes on bios when i try to do usb install lol so we're kinda twinning :b
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13:08 < oldlaptop> getz: If possible, the "most correct" way is probably to make an actual boot floppy.
13:09 < getz> eh I have no other plans for today, incremental updates lets go! :D
13:09 < oldlaptop> You could also modify vortexx's proposed procedure by dd-ing an installation image to the HDD - probably just minirootXX.fs
13:09 < oldlaptop> For the record (debugbsd not being here to yell at) a web search generally is not a good first-line option for openbsd things.
13:10 < oldlaptop> (At least it's not as bad as asking an LLM.)
13:10 < getz> no i read the man page as the lord intended
13:10 < getz> re llm: I've seen that happen first hand..
13:10 < getz> so miniroot then run that from boot(8), I'll give that a try
13:11 < getz> thx!
13:11 < oldlaptop> Not "from boot(8)" - do you have an OpenBSD installation on this machine already or something?
13:11 < getz> yes
13:11 < oldlaptop> minirootXX.fs is what you *could* dd to a USB stick if you had the ability to boot from that
13:12 < oldlaptop> If you have an OpenBSD installation already, you should be able to boot from bsd.rd directly.
13:12 < oldlaptop> (Exactly what sysupgrade does, and exactly what we all did by hand before sysupgrade)
13:13 < oldlaptop> you download your new bsd.rd, put it under / (possibly under a new name), and say `boot bsd.rd` (or whatever new name you used) at the boot(8) prompt
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13:14 < oldlaptop> There's no reason you can't then proceed to wipe the disk and reinstall if you're looking to skip releases, although perhaps I'd prefer to do incremental upgrades if it's going to be tedious to bootstrap the machine again if something goes wrong
13:16 < oldlaptop> What I"m describing is what the more recent upgrade guides call the "interactive upgrade" process: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/upgrade76.html#InteractiveUpgrade
13:16 < getz> Ok I didnt think of that, I only know that skipping releases is a very bad idea :)
13:16 < getz> downloading 100MB takes about 30 minutes so incremental upgrades would take the whole day
13:16 < oldlaptop> You could simply choose to reinstall instead of upgrading - it won't discombobulate the booted installer to wipe the disk it booted from or anything
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13:18 < oldlaptop> That sounds like something's wrong (unless you're talking about an internet link that slow, in which case my sympathies. I remember those days :()
13:19 < oldlaptop> I'd expect 10BASET ethernet to be a lot better than that - unless maybe you're stuck with not-cardbus PCMCIA?
13:19 < getz> it's part of the charm of an old computer
13:19 < getz> i stuck a wifi card in there
13:20 < oldlaptop> https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:240X Ah, so still before they started with integrated ethernet
13:21 < oldlaptop> I'd *strongly* prefer cardbus ethernet to cardbus wifi for a purpose like this, but I suppose you know about that
13:22 < getz> its not carbus wifi i replaced the chip that was inside and pulled an antenna along the lcd display
13:22 < oldlaptop> ah - the winmodem?
13:22 < getz> it was 5 years ago, not sure about details, hence 6.6 :)
13:22 < getz> that could be it yes
13:22 < getz> the ineractiveupgrade seems to work, thanks a lot!
13:23 < oldlaptop> Very sneaky :) I guess the display housing must not be metal?
13:23 < getz> plastic luckily, but it made the keyboard bulge a bit should open it up and make it tidier.
13:24 < oldlaptop> (at least some of the mid-2000s ones were titanium or something, hence the little crosshatched plastic antenna spots)
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13:24 < oldlaptop> Pretty slick.
13:27  * oldlaptop wonders how those compare with the X20 series
13:28 < oldlaptop> Substantially smaller, I guess
13:28 < ghane> Think this would be the generation before X20 (which is the one introducing the titanium I guess)
13:28 < ghane> yes way smaller
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13:29 < ghane> even tinier keyboard
13:29 < oldlaptop> thinkwiki's table puts that as actually the third-to-last "old model number" machine, if I read that right, a few months before X20
13:29 < oldlaptop> https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_History
13:30 < oldlaptop> Can't imagine the tricks they'd have to have pulled to wedge a decent keyboard into a 10 inch diagonal
13:30 < oldlaptop> the 4:3 12" ones are already pretty clever about it
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13:31 < oldlaptop> thinkwiki's stock photo kind of looks like a Japanese machine
13:32 < ghane> oldlaptop: everything slightly shrunken, and keys outside the a-z are narrower, tab, caps etc are really tiny
13:34 < oldlaptop> Hah! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IBM_Thinkpad_240X.jpg If anything Backspace is *bigger* than the 12" machines (I've had X3x/X4x/X6x)
13:34 < oldlaptop> at least in terms of keycap 'units'
13:35 < ghane> oh it removed caps lock too :-)
13:35 < oldlaptop> Aaaaah, that's what's weird
13:35 < oldlaptop> I wonder why they wasted a whole 1.5 units on 1
13:36 < betabug> oh, that's a cutie
13:37 < oldlaptop> It doesn't look at all unlike a 12" 4:3 X-series machine
13:37 < oldlaptop> hard to get a sense of the scale from pictures though, it should be a fair bit more shocking in person
13:39 < betabug> june 2000 ... those were the days
13:39 < oldlaptop> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/ThinkPad_240Z_(type2609-93J_kai).jpg is probably why they made the strange layout choices
13:39 < oldlaptop> if I had to guess
13:40 < betabug> and this boots openbsd fine? cool!
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13:41 < ghane> really sweet machine, I saw it yesterday
13:42 < ghane> it has aged really well since it lacks the rubberized paint introduced on the X20/21/22
13:42 < oldlaptop> 12" X series get by with a 1U backspace and maybe 1.5U caps lock / 1.25U tab, I would think if they really worked at it they could have just squeezed that further and not moved anything
13:42 < oldlaptop> ghane: Rubberized coating goes back well into the 90s, IME.
13:43 < ghane> oldlaptop: perhaps on and off based ono the models then?
13:43 < oldlaptop> Maybe
13:44 < oldlaptop> 755 machines had it on the bottom shell too, not just the lid
13:44 < ghane> oldlaptop: getz 240X did not seem to have it anywhere, my X22 has it *everywhere* where my X60s at least has an uncoated palmrest
13:44 < oldlaptop> I can't remember offhand if 755/760 have it on the palmrest. :( (don't have one at hand these days)
13:45 < oldlaptop> Tiny palmrests though
13:45 < ghane> I do not think the 380E had any rubber either, but that was a "cheap" ABS laptop
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13:48 < oldlaptop> https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:755C I don't think I'd call that a "palmrest" anymore, but ISTR they weren't coated
13:48 < oldlaptop> https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:760C I think was
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13:49 < oldlaptop> (755 keyboards were way better - I never liked the crazy tilt-keyboard trick on the 760s)
13:57 < getz> hm so im in the installer now and need to install the wifi firmware, i put it on an usb and it shows up it dmesg as sd0 but not as /dev/sd0a etc
13:58 < oldlaptop> You'll need to MAKEDEV it, the nodes aren't there on the ramdisk filesystem to start (it's IIRC seriously inode-constrained)
13:59 < oldlaptop> MAKEDEV(8) I should say :) https://man.openbsd.org/MAKEDEV
13:59 < getz> ok thanks!
14:00 < oldlaptop> LOL. 'SCSI disks, including flopticals', '"winchester" disk drives'
14:00 < oldlaptop> Lots of fossils in here
14:01 < oldlaptop> I guess 240 probably don't have a docking station option for SCSI flopticals.
14:01 < getz> that would be that bottom connector? In that case no
14:01 < oldlaptop> (https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_Dock_II_(3546) are a sight to behold)
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14:17 < getz> hm when running mount after MAKEDEV I get device not configured
14:22 < getz> nvm found it!
14:22 < getz> ended up at /dev/sd0i :D
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14:28 < getz> ah i killed it, can't open /dev/console. I'll get another machine to write to the disk
14:28 < getz> so close though :)
14:31 < anelli> yea jus do that. less headache
14:35 < quinq> 15
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15:11 < vortexx> getz: if your machine has usb, you can just boot the next version of bsd.rd and install from sets on the usb drive (dd installXX.img to it), that should be faster than doing a network install
15:12 < vortexx> (I'm saying booting off a next versio bsd.rd on the internal drive)
15:12 < vortexx> s/versio/version
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16:13 < quinq> What would be a good alternative in OpenBSD for: printf 'foobar' | sed 's/foo/&\n/'
16:14 < quinq> The sed implementation doesn't support inserting '\n' characters in the substitution string
16:14 < quinq> s/substitution/replacement/
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16:16 < pardis> printf 'foobar' | perl -pe 's/foo/$&\n/'
16:17 < quinq> Hummm, using an actual newline character works: printf 'foobar' | sed 's/foo/&\^J/'
16:17 < quinq> Thanks pardis :)
16:18 < quinq> “A line can be split by substituting a <newline> into it. The application shall escape the <newline> in the replacement by preceding it by a <backslash>.” confirmed by standard
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18:08 < debugbsd> hi, good afternoon
18:10 < quinq> Hi debugbsd 
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18:40 < quinq> Any idea why make wouldn't use an inference rule?
18:40 < quinq> SuffFindDeps (test_target) No known suffix on test_target. Using empty suffix
18:40 < quinq> not adding suffix rules
18:40 < quinq> The whole path is a bit complex and I don't have a simpler reproducible case (yet)
18:41 < quinq> But the .c inference rule is there, it just decides not to use it, no clue why
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18:49 < getz> vortexx can't boot from usb only floppy, that was the whole issue :)
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18:51 < oldlaptop> getz: The idea was that you can get *sets* from the USB stick instead of the network, after booting from bsd.rd the way you already did (?)
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18:52 < oldlaptop> (which really I should have thought of/suggested :))
18:56 < getz> oh yeah that could have worked, now i tried doing it over http but no fw_update on the ramdisk
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18:57 < getz> i'll get it working next weekend, got a friend coming over who has a laptop that can facilitate the transplant :)
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19:09 < punk> hi @ll
19:10 < punk> my first contacy
19:11 < punk> with opensource was first android phone htc g1
19:11 < quinq> hi punk 
19:11 < punk> hello quinq
19:12 < punk> than i bought magazine with red hat catrman edition that was year 2000
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19:12 < quinq> And now you land on OpenBSD
19:14 < punk> but i continued with ubuntu and after 25 years i switched to openbsd by that time i tried haiku / plan9 / and others but at the end it's OpenBSD abd I'm really proud of myself
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19:16 < punk> windoze is getting swiped out of my new laptop straight away 
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19:18 < quinq> :)
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19:26 < punk> now i'm reading 'the cathedral & the bazaar' by eric s. raymond
19:26 < punk> i'm so glad that i'm more close to unix using openbsd
19:27 < punk> that kiss is so pure :)))
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19:28 < punk> i just need to install replicant on my google smartphone & i'll feel so free than ;P
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19:29 < quinq> ok, found a reproducible one
19:30 < quinq> https://clbin.com/0v0In
19:31 < quinq> That will just do nothing (with a main.c and a main.a in the same dir)
19:31 -!- zcheng3 [~zcheng3@d104-205-176-6.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
19:32 < punk> freedom in software is so important, people just dont't realise, big data and such
19:32 -!- alfiee [~alfiee@user/alfiee] has joined #openbsd
19:32 < punk> i'd rather use old nokia than my smartphone sometimes
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19:33 < quinq> I've been using the same classical mobile phone for more than 10y
19:35 < punk> i had to understand it before start keeping my privacy real safe
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19:36 < punk> even i like and use crypto i'm more to cash user
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19:40 < punk> anyway thanks 4 everything 
19:40 < punk> ill continue deep leaning bsd systems
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19:41 < quinq> Enjoy, and congrats :)
19:42 < punk> quing: thank you (:
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19:42 < punk> from baazar to cathedral ;) and to a most secure os :>
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20:15 < vortexx> getz: I have a laptop with the same issue, usb but bios is too old/deficient to boot off it, and I've replaced the old HDD with an SSD with P-ATA interface
20:16 < vortexx> and I did the "update release after release through 10-15 releases" as well
20:18 < getz> now that you mention it, I did replace that and I'm pretty sure I have an adapter somewhere
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20:41 < fan> To see the result of the disk separation, you need to write "p g"
20:41 < fan> p - print ?
20:42 < fan> g -?
20:43 < metavoid> gb
20:44 < metavoid> try p m
20:44 < metavoid> or p b, p k
20:45 < fan> what do these letters mean?
20:46 < fan> a - add
20:46 < fan> p - print ?
20:46 < phy1729> if only man fdisk listed a print command and what the arguments mean
20:47 < metavoid> or just type ? and then enter in disklabel
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20:47 < phy1729> man disklabel also exists, but the units are documented with -p not on the p command itself
20:51 < fan> when is openbsd installed, is fdisk used?
20:57 < jmcunx> fan: yes, fdisk and disklabel.  You should review this in detail: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html It has a lot of good info and that is what I used for install
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21:04 < fan> jmcunx: thank you. i find in man disklabel 
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21:35 < ssm_> openbsd wins by doing nothing again https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/undocumented-backdoor-found-in-bluetooth-chip-used-by-a-billion-devices/
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21:39 < sibiria> "Espressif has not publicly documented these commands, so either they weren't meant to be accessible, or they were left in by mistake."
21:39 < sibiria> yeah, by mistake
21:41 < oldlaptop> That's pretty damn bad
21:43 < oldlaptop> Also not something that is directly relevant to more or less any general-purpose operating system, OpenBSD or otherwise, really (this is something you might possibly run an operating system *on*)
21:44 < oldlaptop> Unless you use this as a reason to think about attacks from hostile bluetooth devices as a general matter, I guess
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21:46 < thrig> according to the historical documentary "Wargames" you're supposed to leave some sort of backdoor in
21:48 < oldlaptop> (for any who might be unaware, these ESP32 things are a very popular (including on a hobbyist level) family of microcontrollers with built-in bluetooth and/or wi-fi radios.)
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21:50  * oldlaptop feels vindicated in preferring crusty old 8-bit AVRs
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23:09 < mischief> this article is a nothingburger
23:09 < mischief> if you've ever used an esp32 you would realize you can just reprogram them arbitrarily over the serial line anyway
23:10 < ssm_> something tells me not a large number of users are going to do that
23:10 < ssm_> like those that buy iot devices
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23:12 < mischief> 99% of those devices were already reprogrammable without needing to discover some weird bluetooth command, since most mfg likely do not use the esp32 code signing features
23:13 < metala> mischief: you can lock jtag and burn fuses
23:13 < metala> reprogramming is not always possible
23:14 < mischief> you _can_, but do you think mfg of esp32 devices _do_?
23:14 < metala> yes, I work on a project with ESP32S3
23:15 < mischief> im sure you know about esphome then :-) https://devices.esphome.io/
23:15 < mischief> > There are currently 559 devices documented in the repository.
23:16 < mischief> all reprogrammable with no fuses set
23:16 < metala> no.. the project is not related to home automation
23:16 < metala> I get your point. But we do things correctly.
23:18 < metala> but oldlaptop reminds me that I need to check some AVR code for my father.
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23:32 < thrig> these are your father's avr. an elegant chip from a more civilized time
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23:33 < metala> nah, they were just cheap 20 years ago
23:33 < metala> and way easier to work with than PIC's memory
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--- Log closed Sun Mar 09 00:00:46 2025