--- Log opened Wed Mar 12 00:00:55 2025
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00:52 < fengshaun> has anyone tried openbsd on thinkpad t14 gen5?
00:52 < fengshaun> does it work well?
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01:00 < tux0r> yes.
01:00 < tux0r> it does
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01:09 < Bradipo> What about the P16 Gen 2?
01:10 < fengshaun> awesome, thanks!
01:10 < fengshaun> never really looked at the P series before, I'll have a look!
01:11 < Bradipo> Well, I'm not making a recommendation on the P series.
01:11 < Bradipo> Maybe the T series is better?
01:11 < Bradipo> I see that the specs on the T14 Gen5 are pretty decent.
01:11 < fengshaun> they're nice
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01:12 < Bradipo> So the P16 is labeled as a "mobile workstation".
01:13 < Bradipo> The T16 is a "laptop".
01:13 < fengshaun> huh
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01:18 < Bradipo> So the T14 has intel graphics.
01:18 < Bradipo> And also M.2 SSD.
01:19 < Bradipo> I wonder if the Intel WiFI works with OpenBSD... that would be a bonus.
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01:24 < fengshaun> the amd version has qualcomm wifi
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01:29 < Bradipo> Again, which is more likely to work, Intel, or Qualcomm?
01:31 < dlg> intel
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01:45 < Moon_Rabbit> Bradipo: I have the AMD version with an intel wifi chip and it works fine
01:48 < Bradipo> So the P series "mobile workstation"?
01:48 < fengshaun> Moon_Rabbit, that would have been nice, I can't seem to option the T14 gen5 amd with intel wifi :C
01:48 < Moon_Rabbit> I have a gen 1
01:48 < fengshaun> oh alright
01:49 < Bradipo> Would the option to get Linux be any different than the one with Windows (except that I wouldn't pay the price of Windows)?
01:50 < fengshaun> doesn't look like it
01:52 < Moon_Rabbit> The P series typically has slightly reduced battery life for barely any gain in processing power but yes they're marketed as "Desktop replacements".
01:53 < Bradipo> Probably more interested in T series then.  As long as most of it works with OpenBSD.
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01:56 < Moon_Rabbit> You might want to consider getting a cheaper thinkpad that's a bit older. The stuff that just hit the used market isn't as well supported and frankly not as popular with the people that develop thinkpad support. 
01:57 < Bradipo> Yeah, that's the risk.
01:57 < Bradipo> Maybe I need to ship a new model to one of the developers...
01:57 < Moon_Rabbit> Maybe you could entice them
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03:48 < Moon_Rabbit> another thing to consider is the T14 models and above do not have replaceable batteries without taking apart the case. Also the later generations of the T14 past the gen1 do not have a real ethernet port. I don't know how well those work. But I do know you require a dock/dongle to access the ethernet ports on them.
03:49 < Moon_Rabbit> The Gen1 I have works fine and the real ethernet port works OOTB. Once you get firmware so does the wifi card. Although I lucked out and got one with an intel card
03:49 < Moon_Rabbit> They also have a whitelist for hardware and do not allow you to use things like coreboot. The keyboard isn't terrible but it isn't as good as the older models. 
03:49 < Moon_Rabbit> The touchscreen works ootb though if you care about that. I only got one because it was a better screen than the non-touchscreen models.
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03:51 < Moon_Rabbit> All that to say if you're dead set on a T14 I would suggest the gen 1 over all others. Either AMD or Intel. 
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03:53 < Moon_Rabbit> https://dmesgd.nycbug.org/index.cgi?do=view&id=6009  This is the same configuration as the one I use. I need to upload dmesg for my own but I always forget.
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06:46 < thyssentishman> I can recommend the E14 Gen 6
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06:48 < thyssentishman> (AMD)
06:49 < thyssentishman> usually the E series is not as high end as the T series but this Gen 6 is really nice
06:51 < thyssentishman> it has two slots for storage, replaceable ram up to 64gb and replaceable NIC
06:51 < thyssentishman> and its made out of aluminum (usually plastic)
06:52 < thyssentishman> on -current, everything except the microphone works
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06:59 < thyssentishman> oh, and its significantly cheaper than the T series
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07:36 < Moon_Rabbit> Are there any free email providers left that allow you to use SMTP without handing over a cell phone number?
07:37 < Moon_Rabbit> I'm effectively locked out of all my email accounts now unless I use web mail interfaces because every provider I use changed last year and started requiring Government ID or a cell number (which I don't have) to use SMTP.
07:38 < zelest> Just run your own mailserver and you have all the SMTP access you can dream of?
07:38 < Moon_Rabbit> running my own mail server requires domain name which requires Government ID
07:39 < zelest> Get a government ID?
07:39 < Moon_Rabbit> I am stateless
07:39 < zelest> That sounds illegal.
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07:39 < Moon_Rabbit> Sorry for being born I guess
07:39 < zelest> No worries, I regret being born too :)
07:40 < Moon_Rabbit> this place is kind of awful
07:40 < zelest> No no, just me. Not having enough coffee yet.
07:40 < zelest> And to be fair, how's this related to OpenBSD?
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07:41 < Moon_Rabbit> I figured someone would know considering routing mail is kind of important to the project
07:41 < parai> Moon_Rabbit: have you looked at dismail.de?
07:41 < zelest> Isn't protonmail all about privacy? Do they really require a government ID or phone number to register?
07:41 < Moon_Rabbit> thank you looks like it'll work
07:42 < Moon_Rabbit> protonmail requires it to access SMTP along with every other major provider. They all changed this last year.
07:42 < Moon_Rabbit> I'm willing to pay. Just not in anything but cash
07:43 < zelest> A while back you could buy like pre-paid cards here (Sweden) and use them online. No idea if that's possible anymore.
07:43 < Moon_Rabbit> they closed that loophole here about 10 years ago now
07:43 < zelest> Ah
07:44 < Moon_Rabbit> I need to set-up shell company or non-profit or something to get my own domain names again. I lost all my domain names several years back when they stopped letting you register them without providing an ID
07:45 < zelest> What about buying crypto currencies with cash.. and get a domain from njal.la?
07:45 < Moon_Rabbit> all exchanges require either Government ID or use of a cell phone now (which requires Government ID)
07:46 < zelest> Isn't there some "local bitcoins" thingie where you can buy from people in your area, with cash?
07:46 < Moon_Rabbit> there are. If you have a cell phone to make the transaction with them.
07:46 < parai> posteo.de accepts cash by mail as payment
07:46 < Moon_Rabbit> ty I'll look at them too
07:47 < zelest> Are you in US or EU?
07:47 < zelest> As for bitcoin, a QR code should be enough to receive the payment. Harder to verify it going through though.
07:47 < zelest> Or bring a friend with you who can verify the payment?
07:48 < Moon_Rabbit> It seems dismail doesn't allow new registrations anymore sadly
07:48 < Moon_Rabbit> I am in NA
07:48 < zelest> What?
07:48 < Moon_Rabbit> North America
07:48 < zelest> Ah
07:50 < Moon_Rabbit> I will just have to talk someone into letting me link some accounts to their cell number and hope they don't log-in to my accounts I guess
07:51 < zelest> or pay them cash to pay for your domain for 3 years or so :)
07:51 < parai> Moon_Rabbit: there's also disroot.org, i've seen quite a few users on email lists
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07:52 < parai> i see they require a verification email though :(
07:52 < Moon_Rabbit> The picture of a riot on the front page doesn't inspire confidence but I'll try
07:53 < zelest> Haha, I was just about to say the same
07:53 < parai> yeah they have interesting opinions to say the least
07:54 < Moon_Rabbit> I can give them a gmail account or something I have over 30 of those from back when it was invite only
07:54 < Moon_Rabbit> thank you I think this will work for now
07:55 < parai> pubnixes offer email accounts sometimes if disroot doesn't work out for you
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07:57 < Moon_Rabbit> I looked at my old domain name and some shop in Japan that sells fake snow now owns it
07:59 < zelest> fake snow?! lol
07:59 < Moon_Rabbit> If I could figure out a way to board an airplane legally I'd high tail it out of here and try to apply for citizenship over there or in my mother's home country. But I'm kind of stuck at the moment because the Government can't verify who I am.
08:00 < Moon_Rabbit> Yeah I guess it's for plays and what-not. They sell fake snow for arts and crafts and a big snow machine to decorate stage shows and sets for Christmas I guess.
08:00 < zelest> Ah
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10:15 < xse> what do those 'mv: file.foo: set owner/group: Operation not permitted' mean in the following context ? https://tmp.krkrkr.org/mv.log
10:16 < xse> like it clearly changed the owner/group of those files and yet complain that it's not permitted ?
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10:19 < cs_0x6373> has anyone OpenBSD running on a Dell PowerEdge R660? i search the dmesg archive but the latest was a R630 system.
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10:19 < xse> ow, got my answer https://narkive.com/OEcgtdEp.2
10:19 < cs_0x6373> i would like to know if the onboard raid controller is supported
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10:20 < zelest> xse, The original file has suid or guid bit set
10:20 < zelest> Which you, as a regular user, when mv:ing, can't set.
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10:24 < IcePic> cs_0x6373: seems there are lots of choices for raid on dells
10:24 < xse> right, i guess it's the error message that threw me off it looks like an error that would stop things
10:25 < IcePic> cs_0x6373: HBA335i, H355, H755, H775N, H965i or S160
10:26 < cs_0x6373> IcePic: indeed...
10:26 < cs_0x6373> i will have access to a. R660 tomorrow to boot up OpenBSD and check it, looks like the system will have a PERC H755
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12:41 < Ltning> What's a good way to encourage someone to look at https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=172115861327008 ? Crashing bug in relayd, for which a patch is provided. Without this, there's no point for us to report and provide patches for a race condition we recently found in relayd..
12:41 < pardis> it happens sometimes, unfortunately
12:41 < pardis> there are some fairly trivial patches I sent to the list years ago which never got a reply
12:43 < Ltning> This is a pretty serious crashing bug, with a quite trivial patch. It has been followed up on a couple of times. Not to mention we've spent a significant amount of time and money on this, in the interest of not causing unnecessary work for the openbsd project ..
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12:44 < pardis> you're more likely to find people who can sympathise than people who can help here
12:45 < pardis> this is primarily a user support channel, not many OpenBSD devs come here
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12:45 < Ltning> Was afraid so :)
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12:45 < Ltning> But I'll take sympathy .. it's not unlike aspirin ;)
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12:58 < sibiria> anyone here who uses wpa_supplicant? do you know if it's possible to make use of WPA3 in it, or if it can only intergrate enough to provide EAP/RADIUS authentication?
12:59 < lts> OpenBSD doesn't support WPA3 AFAIK
12:59 < sibiria> openbsd itself does not, that's correct
12:59 < sibiria> but wpa_supplicant does
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13:21 < anelli>  /16
13:21 < anelli> sorry irssi
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13:35 < renaud> sibiria: you mean you could use wpa_supplicant to enable connecting OpenBSD on WPA3?
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13:40 < sibiria> renaud: it's how it's done on linux. it's what wpa_supplicant is designed to do. i'm wondering if anyone here has gotten its wpa3 functionality to work under openbsd
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13:41 < renaud> I know it's how it's done on linux, and I know you can use it for 802.1x, but I never heard you could use it to connect to unsupported WPA in OpenBSD
13:42 < sibiria> same
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14:17 < Bradipo> I'm a vmm neophyte... does Windows run under vmm?
14:18 < mischief> that's a negative ghostrider
14:29 < IcePic> vmm mostly handles OSes that are somewhat nice and also uses serial console.
14:36 < pardis> there were once whispers of plans to patch qemu to use vmm for acceleration, but I think the last time I heard anything about that was 2019-ish
14:37 < oldlaptop> It already supports how many different hypervisors? kvm *and* xen, right?
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14:57 < anthk_> windows had some EMS support I think
14:58 < anthk_> I wonder if it an imaged has booted under vmm, rdp could work with it...
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15:01 < gnucode> odd question...I know that OpenBSD has very conservative memory limits per application.  
15:01 < gnucode> And that it is possible to raise that memory limit.
15:01 < gnucode> It is possible to raise that memory limit on a per-application basis?
15:02 < gnucode> It would be nice to raise the memory limit of chromium.
15:05 < Lucas_> gnucode: you can make a shell wrapper for it that runs `ulimit -d whatever && exec /usr/local/bin/chromium`
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15:09 < gnucode> thanks!  I use i3 so that'll work perfectly!
15:11 < pardis> that's good, most window managers can't execute programs
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15:14 < anthk_> chromium has a --light flag too
15:15 < anthk_> also: git://bitreich.org/privacy-haters
15:15 < anthk_> there's a file at the chromium/ subdir
15:15 < anthk_> you can copy over /etc/profile.d/chromium.sh 
15:15 < anthk_> and chmod +x it
15:17 < linetrace> anthk_: is the --light flag OpenBSD-only? I wasn't familiar with that and don't see it listed at https://peter.sh/experiments/chromium-command-line-switches/
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15:19 < gnucode> pardis: I guess I mean that I can create a i3 keybinding to execute ulimit -d whatever && exec /usr/local/bin/chromium
15:20 < gnucode> Are you trying to imply that my plan is a little silly?  Or that there might be an easier way?
15:21 < gnucode> or a better way?
15:24 < oldlaptop> I'd rather have a shell script wrapper, I suppose, because that doesn't depend on a particular program-launching-widget-thingy.
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15:25 < oldlaptop> unrelatedly, wasn't ulimit a shell builtin in the first place? $ which ulimit
15:25 < oldlaptop> which: ulimit: Command not found.
15:26 < oldlaptop> that would suggest to my mind that you need a shell wrapper anyway, unless (as is possible) i3 (or whatever) runs things through the shell itself.
15:27 < linetrace> oldlaptop: isn't `exec` a shell built-in as well?
15:27 < oldlaptop> It makes no sense as anything else
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15:28 < oldlaptop> or, phrased another way, there's no way it could work if it weren't a shell builtin
15:28 < linetrace> exactly, so don't WMs execute a shell to then execute binaries, hence most WMs suggest using `exec`?
15:29 < oldlaptop> Any "WM" that suggests doing so is implying it runs things through the shell, sure.
15:29  * linetrace is mostly familiar with WMs and not DEs, so maybe WMs for DEs don't execute binaries?
15:30 < oldlaptop> Generally the launcher-widget-thingy or thingies won't be part of the window manager in a "DE", if that's what you mean
15:31 < linetrace> yeah, makes sense
15:31 < oldlaptop> (or in the case of the usual combination of lxde/lxqt with openbox, the window manager's support for a launcher-menu-thingy is not used)
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15:35 < linetrace> the xdg .desktop file spec doesn't seem to define whether the executable is executed in a shell or not: https://specifications.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/exec-variables.html
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15:37  * linetrace didn't intend to hijack the discussion
15:38 < oldlaptop> the quoting and reserved-character rules do tend to suggest they had the shell in mind
15:38 < linetrace> good point!
15:39 < oldlaptop> but they also don't really say what happens if you don't properly quote a magic character
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15:39 < linetrace> heh
15:39 < linetrace> I guess that's up to the specific launcher executable to fail spectacularly
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15:43 < oldlaptop> Kinda sounds like implementations use this implicit freedom to be inconsistent with each other. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/25023190/xdg-desktop-file-shell-expansion
15:48 < pardis> freedesktop.org's work is generally 90% duct tape
15:49 < oldlaptop> IIRC the desktop entry format is unusual in that the real spec wasn't originally actually "whatever gnome does", it was "whatever kde does"
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16:04 < linetrace> oldlaptop: thanks for that link
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16:05 < linetrace> another reason to lean toward writing a wrapper script :)
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16:11 < gnucode> when you all say 'wrapper script'...what you mean is the following right?  I would create a file say 'mychrome.sh'.  and maybe place it in ~/bin.  add ~/bin to $PATH and then when I want to launch chrome, I would always type in 'mychrome.sh'.  
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16:12 < oldlaptop> If you arrange $PATH properly, you could chose to call it 'chrome' or 'chromium' (overriding the wrapper OpenBSD ships in /usr/local/bin/chrome)
16:12 < oldlaptop> But yes.
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16:15 < gnucode> oldlaptop:  I would like to call it chromium now that you mention it...how would I ride the /usr/local/bin/chromium?  Ahh... I but I would my custom 'chromium' script in ~/bin  & and then make sure than ~/bin is the last path in $PATH
16:15 < gnucode> thanks!
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16:15 < oldlaptop> There IIRC *is* no chromium in $PATH in OpenBSD's package
16:16 < oldlaptop> it's chrome
16:16 < linetrace> gnucode: also, you would want ~/bin to be _first_ in $PATH
16:16 < oldlaptop> *blinks* indeed
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16:23 < pardis> the exact opposite of pf.conf(5)
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16:24 < linetrace> no 'quick' required :P
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16:25 < Lucas_> gnucode: you'll need to use the full path if you name the wrapper script the same
16:27 < linetrace> gnucode: I have several chromium wrapper scripts for various purposes, incl. a `chrome_conference` which enables A/V recording in the kernel, configures my camera using video(1), launches chrome with ENABLE_WASM=1 and a custom profile, then restores state when chrome exits
16:28 < linetrace> so there are _many_ reasons to write wrappers for applications
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17:19 < thyssentishman> e.g. ulimit -c 0 && /use/local/bin/firefox
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18:07 < gnucode> oldlaptop & linetrace & thyssentishman thanks!
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19:29 < linetrace> and thanks to oldlaptop for the discussion re:.desktop files and execution/string-expansion/shells
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20:39 < gnucode> script wrapping is super cool!
20:39 < gnucode> I might just use that in the place of shell aliases.  They work indepdent of what shell that you use.
20:41 < Bradipo> I rarely use aliases for anything.
20:43 < gnucode> I also just realized that I should probably put "source ~/.profile" into ~/.xsession  
20:43 < gnucode> my ~/.profile and ~/.xsession are essentially the same file.
20:44 < gnucode> No need to duplicate things.
20:44 < Bradipo> That's debatable.
20:44 < Bradipo> I tend to keep them separate, and in fact, most of what's in my .xession has nothing to do with what's in .profile.
20:44 < k0ga> gnucode: you should use a .shrc file
20:44 < gnucode> k0ga: may I ask why?
20:44 < k0ga> man sh
20:45 < k0ga> look for ENV
20:45 < gnucode> Bradipo: That may be fair.
20:45 < k0ga> and set ENV=~/.shrc
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20:45 < Bradipo> I don't see how using ENV and .kshrc will accomplish the same thing as sourcing .profile in .xsession as proposed though.
20:45 < k0ga> .profile is executed for every login session
20:46 < k0ga> and you can have things like for example using fortune(1)
20:46 < k0ga> or setting stty parameters
20:46 < k0ga> but the ENV file is basically only for environment variables
20:46 < Bradipo> Yes, I put most of my customizations in ~/.kshrc with ENV=${HOME}/.kshrc in .profile
20:47 < Bradipo> I also have "set -o vi" in ~/.kshrc
20:47 < Bradipo> Because it doesn't make sense to have it in .profile.
20:47 < k0ga> yeah, that was my point, that .profile can contain things that are not desirable in .xsession
20:48 < Bradipo> Oh, I see.
20:50 < k0ga> in my case, for example:
20:50 < k0ga> erase=`tput kbs`
20:50 < k0ga> stty erase ${erase:-^H}
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20:55 < gnucode> I do know that .profile and .xsession are different things.    But I guess you are right.  You should only need to set up PATH in .profile.  No need to specify PATH in both .profile and ~./xsession
20:57 < pardis> you normally do want to set PATH in .xsession
20:57 < pardis> all but the most minimal of xsessions will need things in /usr/local/bin
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21:01 < Bradipo> Heh, I don't even have PATH in .xsession.
21:01 < Bradipo> I just have a couple commands followed by "exec fvwm".
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21:08 < linetrace> xenodm(1) has some of the details re: .xsession & default value of PATH and other env vars
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21:09 < Bradipo> Is that "default PATH" just the one that comes from /etc/login.conf ?  Or is it actually hard-coded somewhere in xenodm-land?
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21:31 < seninha> I `. ~/.profile` in `~/.xsession`
21:31 < ssm_> same
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21:33 < zelest> I don't, isn't that happening as soon as you open a terminal anyway?
21:33 < ssm_> I also have an ~/.xcommon file that I source in both .xinitrc and .xsession
21:34 < ssm_> ~/.profile only sources on tty login, or with -l flag in su
21:34 < zelest> yeah, that happens when I start xterm :P
21:35 < ssm_> well, you could also just run login(1) in an xterm but I've not seen that done before
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21:41 < seninha> zelest, yes; but some gui program may need the environment i set there
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21:41 < zelest> Ah, fair point
21:42 < seninha> For example, i set DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS=no and GTK_IM_MODULE=xim
21:42 < seninha> (but since they are only relevant for X stuff, there's kinda no point in having them at ~/.profile other than just keeping all envvar definition at a single place)
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22:41 < obcecado> hi
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22:42 < obcecado> since 7.7-beta i've been randomly experiencing high latency
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22:43 < ssm_> high latency in what sense? in what applications?
22:43 < obcecado> on the network
22:43 < obcecado> my home router is running on an openbsd box
22:43 < obcecado> aggr + vlan + pf + nat
22:44 < obcecado> broadly speaking this is my network scenario
22:47 -!- tarxvfz [~tarxvfz@gateway/tor-sasl/tarxvfz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
22:48 < vortexx> oldlaptop: there is ungoogled-chromium in packages now
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22:49 < ssm_> all chromium based browsers override my default mouse cursor which makes me sad (hidpi)
22:49 < ssm_> even falkon
22:49 < vortexx> has been for a release or two, preferable to chrome, but I'm not seeing it ever in -stable updates despite many an update (nearly weekly) for linux and win64 over on there github page
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22:50 < ssm_> backport from -current :3
22:51 < vortexx> on OpenBSD if you need webkit but don't want google, iridium and ungoogled-chromium are your options
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22:51 < vortexx> firefox gets updated many a time in -stable, unlike ungoogled
22:51 < pardis> there is also surf
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22:54 < ssm_> badwolf, epiphany
22:54 < ssm_> badwolf has terrible performance for me, for whatever reason
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