--- Log opened Fri Mar 14 00:00:06 2025
--- Day changed Fri Mar 14 2025
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00:29 < Moon_Rabbit> thrig: they sold out on (x)html long ago though
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01:40 < ssm_> unrznbl: yeah, I don't know if vimperator inspired luakit or luakit inspired vimperator. or something else entirely.
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10:24 < jhuhn> Does anybody know what I have to do when the installer while booting says: "cannot open hd3a:/etc/random.seed: can't read disk label"? Before I dd'ed some old disks and now I want to install a fresh version of OpenBSD.
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10:25 < sibiria> that's because the ramdisk image of the installer doesn't come with a pre-loaded random seed
10:25 < sibiria> it's intended
10:27 < jhuhn> Okay, how do I progress then? 
10:27 < sibiria> progress? that should just be a notice. the install kernel should continue just fine
10:29 < jhuhn> next line is: "booting hd3a:/bsd: open hd3a:/bsd: can't read disklabel" after that: "failed(100): will try /bsd" and the last line is: "Turning timeout off."
10:29 < sibiria> i wonder if you perhaps didn't boot off of an old drive after all, or if your USB stick (or similar) is not written correctly
10:30 < sibiria> that sort of looks like you ran the bootloader from the old installation, but with the rest of the installation deleted
10:31 < jhuhn> I chose the USB stick in the boot selection menu. But you're right, it sounds like something like that.
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14:07 < WhyNotHugo> the following only opens a port via ipv4? pass in proto tcp to port { 6697 }
14:07 < sibiria> ipv4 and ipv6
14:08 < WhyNotHugo> how do i confirm if a daemon (senpai) is listening on ipv4-only or on ipv6 too?
14:08 < WhyNotHugo> s/senpai/soju/
14:08 < sibiria> you can use netstat -an to inspect everything, or fstat to inspect specifics
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14:09 < sibiria> fstat will show "everything as well", but netstat provides a faster overview
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14:11 < WhyNotHugo> I'd checked fstat before and it says "*:6697". Not sure if this implies dual-stack or no.
14:11 < sibiria> internet vs internet6
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14:12 < WhyNotHugo> netstat also says "*.6697…LISTEN"
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14:12 < WhyNotHugo> oh, "internet"
14:13 < sibiria> and in netstat these will be sorted under tcp/tcp6 and udp/udp6
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14:13 < WhyNotHugo> ah, i see that now
14:13 < WhyNotHugo> so internet == inet4
14:13 < sibiria> openbsd does not do dual-stack in the linux sense. it explicitly needs two listeners, one for each address family
14:14 < WhyNotHugo> thanks for pointing that out!
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14:19 < IcePic> and the pf rule you posted could have the specifier "inet" to make sure it only covers ipv4
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14:53 < WhyNotHugo> i want the rule to be dual stack
14:53 < WhyNotHugo> problem is my server is only listening on ipv4, but that seems like a bug in golang and in soju
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15:19 < IcePic> WhyNotHugo: well, as said before, on obsd you really need to make one socket per protocol, so if the frameworks and libraries and modules and whatever don't do this, then they need patching 
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15:20 < WhyNotHugo> yup, i'm patching soju right now :)
15:21 < WhyNotHugo> fun fact: if you call golang's net module with `tcp` (instead of tcp6) and `[::]`, it still uses ipv4
15:21 < WhyNotHugo> IMHO such a usage should fail
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15:45 < WhyNotHugo> okay, so i patched the server (soju) to open an ipv6 listner.
15:45 < WhyNotHugo> netstat -an | grep 6697 shows an entry for tcp…6697 and tcp6…6697
15:46 < WhyNotHugo> nmap -p6697 -6 myhost says that the prot is closed
15:48 < puffybuf> I made a script to encrypt my backups using vnconfig and bioctl: https://github.com/function2/openbsd/blob/main/openbsd_crypt.py
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15:50 < sibiria> WhyNotHugo: does your interface do ipv6?
15:50 < sibiria> and does it have something more than a link-local address
15:50 < sibiria> or it won't be reachable
15:51 < WhyNotHugo> it does have ipv6, but ssh and other services don't work either.
15:51 < WhyNotHugo> i must have messes up pf when i redid the config recenlty
15:52 < WhyNotHugo> `ssh -6` also fails with host unreachable
15:52 < sibiria> you can inspect the currently loaded rules with "pfctl -s rules"
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15:53 < WhyNotHugo> no funny rules there
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15:53 < sibiria> there are also a few gotchas related to how to correctly express a pf rule so that it automatically spots address changes and such for an interface
15:53 < mischief> speaking of ipv6 i noticed since i moved to dhcp6leased, i only have an address on my lan-side interface from PD but not on my wan
15:53 < sibiria> if you want you can pastebin your pf.conf here for someone to have a look
15:53 < mischief> so my pf rules allowing traffic to egress don't work :/
15:54 < WhyNotHugo> https://paste.sr.ht/~whynothugo/9c01a4dd81e9ea0c4c6635bdb8974629046388cd
15:54 < WhyNotHugo> my pf rules and state
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15:55 < sibiria> that looks in order, should pass both ipv4 and ipv6
15:56 < sibiria> unless those two IP addresses up there happen to be where you're testing from?
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15:56 < sibiria> ah, you did say you tested different ports
15:57 < sibiria> sniff the interface' outside with tcpdump and see if anything even reaches to you
15:57 < sibiria> tcpump -n -i <if> ip6
15:59 < WhyNotHugo> only continuous "icmp6: neighbor" from local-link addresses
16:00 < WhyNotHugo> no ipv6 traffic on its public address
16:00 < sibiria> so nothing is actually sent your way from your network's edge
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16:01 < WhyNotHugo> i'll ping them, thanks for the help
16:01 < sibiria> if your host happens to be on some VPS provider, some of them won't route anything to you unless your interface recently asked for a route advertisement and similar
16:02 < sibiria> oracle, to name one, are like that. hosts regularly need to speak to the gateway or the route will eventually be turned off
16:03 < sibiria> though this should happen automatically if you use for example SLAAC
16:03 < WhyNotHugo> it's openbsd.amsterdam
16:03 < WhyNotHugo> it might be a fluke; it's worked in the past
16:03 < sibiria> just a thought... pfctl -f /etc/pf.conf
16:03 < sibiria> and test again
16:03 < WhyNotHugo> huh, ping6 says "ping6: sendmsg: Permission denied"
16:03 < sibiria> becaues i can't entirely recall what pf implicitly does, in cases where rules are not explicit
16:04 < pardis> permission denied normally means you're blocking it in pf.conf
16:04 < WhyNotHugo> my pf.conf is in the link above
16:04 < pardis> and indeed you are, I just looked at your rules
16:04 < pardis> you aren't passing icmp6
16:04 < WhyNotHugo> icmp is only icmp4?
16:05 < pardis> yes, if memory serves
16:05 < sibiria> and that would get in the way for router/neighbor messages
16:05 < sibiria> solic/adv specifically
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16:06 < WhyNotHugo> now using: pass out proto { tcp udp icmp icmp6 } all
16:06 < WhyNotHugo> ping6: 9 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100.0% packet loss
16:06 < WhyNotHugo> at least it's not access denied
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16:07 < pardis> you likely need to pass icmp6 in too for router advertisements to be received
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16:07 < pardis> and generally passing icmp and icmp6 in is a good idea
16:07 < mischief> pass in log on egress inet6 proto icmp6 all icmp6-type { routeradv neighbrsol neighbradv }
16:07 < mischief> pass in log on egress inet6 proto udp from fe80::/10 port dhcpv6-server to fe80::/10 port dhcpv6-client no state
16:08 < mischief> is what i have
16:08 < mischief> (i pass out all)
16:09 < WhyNotHugo> nice, ping works both ways
16:09 < WhyNotHugo> completely forgot about icmp and especially icmp6
16:10 < sibiria> 134 and 136 is all you should need to pass in to acquire the routes themselves
16:10 < WhyNotHugo> mischief: any risks in just using `pass in proto { icmp icmp6 } all`
16:10 < sibiria> solicitation goes out, advertisement comes back in
16:11 < sibiria> dest-unrech and timex typically good to pass in as well, so the ip stack reacts quickly on dead ends
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16:21 < WhyNotHugo> ping6 alternates between working fine and Network unreachable
16:21 < WhyNotHugo> pass out inet6 proto icmp6 all icmp6-type { routersol neighbrsol echorep }
16:21 < WhyNotHugo> pass in  inet6 proto icmp6 all icmp6-type { routeradv neighbradv unreach timex echoreq }
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16:22 < sibiria> does sound like the gateway can't make its mind up whether you are still there or not
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16:24 < WhyNotHugo> Ah, missing neighbrsol from pass in
16:24 < WhyNotHugo> actually, that pass out is pointless, i should just pass out icmp6 all
16:25 < sibiria> i don't think solicitation comes in. you solicitate, they advertise. but maybe that depends on the topology. in my specific case it's the way i explained
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16:26 < sibiria> you could do the simple thing for now:  pass out inet6 proto icmp6    pass in inet6 proto icmp6 from fe80::/10
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16:27 < WhyNotHugo> neighbrsol does come in quite frequently
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16:29 < mischief> you could try working through https://ipv6.he.net/certification/
16:30 < mischief> https://ipv6.he.net/certification/create_badge.php?pass_name=mischief&badge=3 :-)
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16:30 < WhyNotHugo> does that cover the ICMP part? that's the bit with which i'm least familiar
16:30 < Bradipo> What specifically about ICMP doesn't make sense.
16:30 < Bradipo> Or are you really talking about the IPv6 version of ARP?
16:31 < Bradipo> Which is all that "neighbor" stuff is.
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16:31 < Bradipo> solicitation is just like ARP requests.
16:31 < WhyNotHugo> i look at the list of types in icmp(4) or icmp6(4) and don't know what most of them mean
16:32 < Bradipo> Ahh, well that's different.
16:32 < Bradipo> But neighbor discovery protocol is really just ARP for IPv6.
16:32 < sibiria> if obsd.ams is using SLAAC for this, all you should need to pass in are types 134 and 136. they should come from fe80::/10
16:32 < WhyNotHugo> neighbourhood/router solicitation/advertisment i'm familiar enough
16:33 < Bradipo> Well, then you should be familiar with ICMP6 types 134 and 135.
16:33 < WhyNotHugo> Not by number, but if I look them up in the table they make sense
16:34 < Bradipo> Yeah, that's what I mean... who can keep numbers straight except through usage. :-)
16:34 < WhyNotHugo> 135==neighbrsol=="do you still have address X?"
16:34 < Bradipo> They can also be called by name in pf.conf if I'm not mistaken.
16:34 < WhyNotHugo> 134==routeradv=="hi, i'm your router"
16:34 < WhyNotHugo> yeah, i put them by name in pf.conf :)
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16:36 < WhyNotHugo> but i see paramprob, grouprep, wrureq, and i've no idea what those are
16:37 < Bradipo> Most of them you probably don't need anyway. lol.
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16:38 < WhyNotHugo> we only really needed 4 bits for all the icmp6 codes we really need
16:39 < Bradipo> Maybe they wanted to have room for growth...
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17:04 < gnucode> heyo friends,  I'm considering installing OpenBSD on a desktop computer to give to a friend, who knows nothing about computers.  I think if I set up Xfce, install essential applications, and have a cron job that once every 6 months runs sysupdate and updates all the installed packages afterward...it should be a pretty easy way to set my friend up with a computer that he could use.  Is there any reason that I should not give OpenBSD to a
17:04 < gnucode>  technically illiterate person?
17:04 < gnucode> Or perhaps I should try to install an easy to use Linux distro?
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17:05 < gnucode> one that you can update via mouse clicks.
17:06 < Bradipo> gnucode: I would avoid the automatic sysupdate and updates.
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17:06 < Bradipo> If he's a friend, then you should get together every 6 months and walk him through it, or at least make an event of you coming over to update it every so often.
17:08 < Bradipo> You might want to setup xfce on one of your own systems to get familiar with it.
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17:08 < Bradipo> Lately, I haven't been as happy with xfce as in the past.
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17:09 < Bradipo> It seems to have flickering problems and other strange resource usage problems.
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17:10 < ragnar> Hello, is the openbsd infra team aware https://man.openbsd.org is throwing 500 internal server?
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17:12 < sibiria> man.ifconfig.se to the rescue
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17:13 < Bradipo> Or heaven forbid one just use "man" on the command line.
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17:19 < ragnar> :) I almost always use man(1) on the cli.  It just happens I was browsing https://openssh.com -> https://openssh.com/manual.html -> https://man.openbsd.org/ssh_config and got an error and thought it might be worth reporting.  I see it's back up now, though.
17:20 < Bradipo> By the way, while https://man.openbsd.org might return 500, http://man.openbsd.org does not.
17:20 < Bradipo> Though, it does seem that it's a bit slower than usual.
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17:29 < gnucode1> Bradipo:  Thanks for the recommendation.  May I ask why you would avoid automatic updates?  
17:29 < Bradipo> Murphy's Law?
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17:30 < Bradipo> I would rather be present when things break.
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17:30 < Bradipo> gnucode1: I prefer stability over functionality.
17:31 < Bradipo> Especially if it's someone elses computer that they are going to be using.
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17:32 < pardis> automatic sysupgrades (assuming that's what you meant) are not supported and will likely result in a broken system over time
17:32 < pardis> you need to follow the whole upgrade guide when upgrading, not just run a magic script
17:32 < pardis> there is also no reason for a technically illiterate person to choose OpenBSD over any other OS
17:33 < pardis> it will be slower and you will get none of the benefits of good documentation and an easy-to-understand system if the user does not try to understand it
17:33 < echelon> yeah, it's not a great way to evangelize
17:34 < sibiria> linux mint xfce or cinnamon is great
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17:34 < sibiria> mostly very user-friendly
17:34 < sibiria> acceptably grandma-compatible
17:35 < pardis> I would probably go with Fedora in this situation, if I didn't want to pay for one of the big proprietary desktop systems
17:35 < Bradipo> All depends on what "grandma" wants to do with it.  If it's just browsing the web to read news sites and watch youtube, then I see no reason why OpenBSD wouldn't make the cut.
17:35 < Bradipo> Though, today's "grandmas" may be a little more sophisticated.
17:36 < pardis> only if someone is there to manually upgrade to a new release every 6 months
17:36 < pardis> doing that in a cron job will result in bad outcomes sooner or later
17:36 < Bradipo> Yep.
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17:37 < gnucode1> Bradipo: thanks!
17:39 < gnucode1> pardis  and sibiria  ok thanks.
17:39 < phy1729> Depends on how good of a friend they are. For low effort and just web chromebooks suffice.
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22:15 < oldlaptop> (late, I know) Re: <pardis> there is also no reason for a technically illiterate person to choose OpenBSD over any other OS
22:15 < oldlaptop> One limited objection: all the benefits that the technically illiterate person won't get will still be relevant *if* you're also going to be maintaining the thing yourself
22:15 < oldlaptop> (I suppose that's m:tier's thinking, for example)
22:16 < oldlaptop> Kinda proves/reinforces the overall point, though.
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22:18 < oldlaptop> I also wonder about... not technically illiterate, but people who did just fine on BASIC micros, or MS-DOS, back in those days, and never really ended up understanding the newer more complex microsoft nightmares.
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22:20 < topcat001> I try very hard to not understand those nightmares
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22:20  * oldlaptop knows people who'd be perfectly happy with an AUTOEXEC.BAT (does that remind you of anything?) and writing BASIC programs (lang/pcbasic? I bet bwbasic runs) but would be (are) lost on NT or modern linux
22:23 < topcat001> I grew up on a dumb text terminal, and still manage to mostly live in a shell environment.
22:25 < oldlaptop> old-timey unix (which in a sense is what openbsd is) is still on a different plane of complexity than '80s micros, but there's still not as far to go before you hit bedrock
22:26 < topcat001> When I got my souped up work Precision with 64 GB RAM and booted up Win11, IT did not let me wipe it for a few days.
22:27 < topcat001> Performance was horrific and it huffed and puffed hot the entire time.
22:27 < topcat001> good riddance
22:28 < topcat001> I have Ubuntu and OpenBSD dual boot on it now, the former being a work requirement.
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22:29 < topcat001> fans off and whisper quiet and incredibly fast now
22:30 < topcat001> I was surprised how well it is supported in OpenBSD actually.
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--- Log closed Sat Mar 15 00:00:59 2025