--- Log opened Mon Apr 07 00:00:31 2025
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01:06 < rcf> Looks like libretls really does not like openssl these days, given how curl on other platforms is behaving....
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03:04 < ssm_> rcf: something specific?
03:05 < ssm_> question - I can't find documentation on what the effect of omitting "from X" or "to X" in pf rules do. I've perused and searched around the pf.conf manpage a few times but I just can't find anything; maybe I'm blind.
03:06 < ssm_> is omitting just the same as {from,to} any?
03:07 < tommyrot> yes
03:08 < anelli> ssm_: i read that in the faq. lemme get ze chapter
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03:11 < anelli> ssm_: here https://www.openbsd.org/faq/pf/shortcuts.html#grammar (specifically https://www.openbsd.org/faq/pf/shortcuts.html#elim)
03:12 < anelli> it simplified my rulesets
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03:12 < ssm_> anelli: thank you!
03:12 < anelli> np :)
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03:30 < usagi_mimi> I noticed renpy is no longer packaged and the port still uses python 2. Anyone running it on 7.7?
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03:42 < usagi_mimi> I used pkg_locate and it seems all of these are in ports. But I wanted to double check with you guys. Do any of these looks like they're be a problem to provide? I don't want to get very deep into this only to discover something common isn't supported for whatever reason. https://raw.githubusercontent.com/renpy/renpy-build/refs/heads/master/requirements.txt
03:43 < usagi_mimi> The very in ports is still the python 2 version. I looked on the ports mailing list and there seems there was an effort to bring renpy up to date 2 years ago then all discussion stops with no follow up. So I'm curious why people gave up.
03:44 < thrig> some software is problematic for the ports system and might be better built manually
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04:10 < usagi_mimi> I see why it was removed now
04:10 < usagi_mimi> It and the main package it depends on (which nothing else uses) wouldn't build with Cython3 and it got dropped with a bunch of other packages that wouldn't build with it. The maintainer doesn't seem to be around any longer either.
04:11 < usagi_mimi> Oh well I'm interested in maintaining it because I work with it a lot so I'll see if I can get the latest version to build sometime this week I guess.
04:12 < usagi_mimi> It seems no one even testing the developer tools before anyway and it was only being used for playing games. I work with the dev tools fairly often so perhaps I'll be able to find things people weren't looking for before
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05:57 < ssm_> being free of imap and pop3 is nice. I like only having mboxes and mail(1), even if configuration is trickier in some regards
05:59 < ssm_> I like having smtpd, sendmail (smtpd), send-mail (smtpd) and mailq (smtpd) only for my mail please thanks 
05:59 < ssm_> and spamd
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06:13 < anelli> i'm learning mail iso ig i'll go that route too. it's crazy how convoluted mail is compared to other daemons lol
06:17 < mischief> wasn't email the first real distributed protocol, that predated unix even
06:22 < anelli> mischief: i was reading a bit aboutit and first electronic msg was sent between two different computers was 71
06:22 < anelli> before that it was on the same machine between different users
06:23 < ssm_> I think mounting your domain mail mbox directory to your workstation is an idea
06:23 < ssm_> I was thinking about just writing a getmail script but using nfs makes sense
06:23 < anelli> yea the plan9 way :b
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06:35 < ssm_> anelli: if you want to know how I'm doing it, I send from my workstation over submission from lo0 with a self signed cert for tls using an auth table, and the the `from auth` method on the outgoing match directive on the remote side. standard smtp port is used for incoming mail, and handled by an mda to shove things into mboxes as I like them using the mail.mboxfile utility in /usr/libexec
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06:42 < ssm_> I think you could use pf's divert-to to send things over a different port, but I just kept everything outgoing from my workstation to the destination on submission
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09:21 < leah> openbsd.org seems to be down
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09:28 < svragv> First time I see openbsd.org down
09:28 < svragv> curious
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09:54 < rnkn> only two website downtimes in a heck of a long time!
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09:55 < sibiria> it's been hacked by the Lizard Overlords
09:55 < sibiria> they're the only ones with expertise, potential and funding to bring openbsd.org down
09:55 < lts> 4 AM in Calgary
09:56 < sibiria> them and of course the ninjas...
09:58 < svragv> so this is a historic moment?
09:59 < sibiria> nope. goes offline every once in a while, like most things
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10:04 < svragv> good things I have mirrors
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11:04 < ROYGBYTE> mirrors, mirrors, of de Raadt, who has the most patches of them all?
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13:29 < anelli> ssm_: sorry i fell asleep xD oh sounds cool. i don't get most of it but ig i will after setting up smtp. gl :)
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13:30 < Michelle> evening all
13:31 < Michelle> can't get isc_bind to start on a 7.6/sparc64 box ... errors out on an assertion: 07-Apr-2025 23:23:15.102 loop.c:602: REQUIRE(((loop) != ((void *)0) && ((const isc__magic_t *)(loop))->magic == ((('L') << 24 | ('O') << 16 | ('O') << 8 | ('P'))))) failed
13:31 < Michelle> any pointers please?
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13:33 < anelli> void *ptr; 
13:33 < anelli> jk xD
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13:33 < Michelle> :P
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13:36 < Michelle> its a newly setup install IPv4 and IPv6 addresses configured sitting in a solaris ldom, this version installed with pkg_add: Information for inst:isc-bind-9.20.1v3-geoip
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13:48 < vortexx> OPENBSD_7_7_BASE has been tagged, get your build servers going!
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13:52 < jmcunx> Not sure what that means, but for easily confused people like me, more detail:  https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20250330230026 :)
13:53 < renaud> I am waiting for official builds
13:53 < renaud> it shouldn't take long
13:54 < vortexx> those will land on the 30th
13:55 < vortexx> according to this: https://github.com/openbsd/src/blob/master/etc/root/root.mail
13:57 < renaud> it can change :)
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14:00 < vortexx> it can
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14:01 < Lucas_> vortexx: it can be retagged
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14:02 < renaud> retagged?
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14:08 < Lucas_> if something that is already tagged OPENBSD_7_7_BASE is broken, the fix isn't tagged out of the blue
14:08 < Lucas_> so it needs to be tagged again
14:08 < Lucas_> in order to have a fully working OPENBSD_7_7
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14:13 < renaud> Did this already happen, even once?
14:13 < sibiria> release has been postponed at one or two occasions in my memory
14:13 < sibiria> after tagging, that is
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14:32 < oldlaptop> for what reason, though?
14:32 < oldlaptop> offhand it seems at least as likely that might happen because whoops, the build vax has died and can't be replaced, so this one last release gets built on the ports vax
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14:33 < oldlaptop> (I don't remember whether that delayed the overall release, I just remember it killed vax)
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14:49 < Guest68> Hi guys, I'm considering installing a bsd on my laptop (alongside linux and windows), and had a few questions
14:49 < Guest68> I read solene's blog post on why she stopped using openbsd, and I want to ask how big of a problem file system corruption actually is
14:50 < oldlaptop> Not much, IME and IMO.
14:50 < Lucas_> I agree with oldlaptop
14:50 < ssm_> Guest68: use a device with very fast write speeds, and mount sensitive filesystems sync maybe
14:50 < k0ga> Guest68: I would say that it depends how sensitive is the information nthat you store in the file system
14:50 < oldlaptop> On a laptop you do want to avoid having the battery run dead (i.e. unclean shutdown).
14:51 < ssm_> no filesystems is going to save you, journaling or not, if a write is incomplete
14:51 < oldlaptop> It sure would be nice to have checksumming a la zfs, I will say that.
14:51 < Guest68> ssm_: that's a shame, I was considering installing it on my hdd, possible
14:51 < Guest68> *possibly
14:52 < oldlaptop> That's still fine.
14:52 < oldlaptop> It's a 40-year-old filesystem, it was designed for HDDs.
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14:53 < sibiria> i've never had file system corruption with ffs, just a bunch of fscks. but with time those became fewer, and with softdep out of the way recently there are fewer problems
14:53 < ssm_> also, regular backups will mitigate any issues with filesystem corruption
14:53 < ssm_> make yourself something like /etc/changelist but for rsync or tar and send it to some vps or something
14:53 < Guest68> is openbsd the sort of OS that I can not update for a long time, and then still be able to smoothly update it?
14:54 < sibiria> if there's anything you should worry about, it's shoddy SSDs with slow flash memory and large buffers that lie about data being written
14:54 < lts> I wish we'd get both encryption-at-rest and raid1 without performance really taking a hit
14:54 < oldlaptop> ssm_: That's really why checksumming is important. Your backups are no good if they're all affected by some bit-flip.
14:54 < lts> I mean, you can have encryption-at-rest or raid1 just fine. Just not both
14:54 < oldlaptop> Guest68: "Upgrades" as such are supported only from one release to the next.
14:54 < oldlaptop> (releases are every six months)
14:56 < oldlaptop> At a certain point you will want to reinstall rather than do N upgrades in a row. (reinstallation tends to be relatively low-impact, given that you will generally have separate /home and /var)
14:57 < Guest68> how much time does that usually take?
14:57 < Lucas_> what is "does" in here?
14:57 < oldlaptop> Not much.
14:57 < Lucas_> oldlaptop: now you can jump between upgrades
15:00 < oldlaptop> ...?
15:01 < Lucas_> the latest sysupgrade and supporting infra are in place for moving that sysupgrade to 6.0 (to say something) and then jump in a single `sysupgrade` to 7.7
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15:04 < Lucas_> https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/src/usr.sbin/sysupgrade/sysupgrade.sh r1.55
15:04 < Lucas_> d'oh, https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/src/usr.sbin/sysupgrade/sysupgrade.sh?rev=1.55&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
15:04 < Guest68> also, what is the power management situation like? On linux I always have my cpu to the powersave governor, and even then my cpu idles at like 45 degrees
15:05 < Guest68> although I guess I could find a way around lack of powermanagement by messing with bios settings, not sure
15:05 < Lucas_> power management isn't great
15:06 < Lucas_> https://man.openbsd.org/man2/sysctl.2#HW_PERFPOLICY~2
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15:09 < Guest68> Lucas_: what does setting it to 'manual' do?
15:10 < Guest68> nvm
15:12 < Guest68> ah so this is actually kinda nice then, I can manullay cap my cpu at 40% or something using hw_setperf
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15:18 < Guest68> can I ask a freebsd related question here
15:19 < Guest68> about its security practices really
15:20 < Lucas_> no, that belongs to FreeBSD communication spaces
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15:22 < Guest68> in openbsd, if something does go wrong in the filesystem (abrupt shut down), does that only affect the openbsd partition, or the entire hard drive? e.g. if I had another OS on, together with an efi system partition, there's a very low chance that those'll get affected, right?
15:23 < sibiria> only the openbsd file systems, unless openbsd right at that moment happens to be rewriting the GPT or ESP content etc.
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15:24 < BasketCase> well, technically anything mounted rw can have changes happening that can be screwed up
15:25 < sibiria> yes but not outside openbsd's partition, because openbsd does not go there unless you tell it to
15:25 < echelon> anybody use openbsd on vmware? i created a openbsd vm guest and it says vmware tools version:2147483647 is running, but it reports the guest os as FreeBSD Pre-11 versions (32-bit)
15:25 < sibiria> openbsd's file systems are not primary/secondary partitions. they are "labels" that live entirely inside a single partition, and openbsd keeps to itself, with the exception of updating bootloader on ESP and if you ask it to zap the GPT when installing on a fresh disk
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15:26 < sibiria> if you're using MBR openbsd can do writes there as well when updating bootblocks, but that happens only when such is needed
15:27 < Bradipo> echelon: I run OpenBSD on vmware.  I don't use vmware tools on it though.
15:27 < sibiria> it's not like windows which at least in the past had a tendency to fuck around with the MBR at its own behest for no good reason or necessity
15:28 < echelon> Bradipo: i didn't install vmware tools either, but it automatically detected it as running somehow
15:28 < Guest68> by the way was there a bug with openBSD 7.6 and qemu
15:29 < Guest68> I tried installing it with virt-manager a few months back but was always met with a filesystem corruption upon logging in
15:29 < Guest68> couldn't understand whether I was doing something wrong or not
15:32 < sonya> Guest68: afair, i had obsd as guest for linux hosts, but anything with windows hosts was a mess.. it's best to use vmm/vmd though..
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15:34 < sibiria> though the question was if qemu had problems hosting openbsd
15:34 < sibiria> if i were to guess, i think you probably made a boo-boo with storage config
15:34 < sibiria> just like with emulated display hardware, it seems to do best with just a small set of options
15:35 < Guest68> I guess I'll have to have another go at it
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15:38 < RobbieAB> I have openbsd running on qemu
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15:43 < oldlaptop> Lucas_: That doesn't mean the actual upgrade is any less likely to go wrong.
15:44 -!- b50d [~b50d@62.96.54.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:44 < oldlaptop> (Note the actual documentation for -R.)
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16:02 < ssm_> How could I convert Maildir to mbox?
16:02 < Bradipo> Why would you want to do that?
16:02 < eea> voodoo rituals
16:02 < ssm_> Bradipo: I like mail(1)
16:03 < ssm_> I ditched imap/dovecot and am using only smtpd, but I still have a bunch of old maildir files I want to convert
16:03 < Bradipo> I see.
16:04 < Bradipo> Well, I believe there is a script out there that will convert Maildir to mbox.
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16:05 < thrig> >From maildir to mbox may require some care
16:05 < Bradipo> Yep.
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16:07 < Bradipo> https://untroubled.org/ezmlm/man/man1/maildir2mbox.1.html
16:07 < Bradipo> There's one...
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16:10 < vortexx> apparently mutt can do the job too: mutt -f /path/to/Maildir_folder -e 'set mbox_type=mbox; set confirmcreate=no; set delete=no; push "T.*<enter>;s/path/to/result.mbox<enter><quit>"'
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16:11 < vortexx> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2501182/convert-maildir-to-mbox
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16:12 < ssm_> mutt seems the simplest, I'll try that. thanks!
16:13 < Bradipo> Another way would be to use 2 IMAP processes.  One that is configured to *read* the Maildir and one that is configured to write mbox.  Then just copy the messages between two IMAP processes.  Heresy, I know.
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16:25 < vortexx> Bradipo: yeah imapsync would be able to do it probably
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16:25 < Bradipo> That way madness lies. :-)
16:28 < vortexx> hehe
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16:42 < ssm_> real smtp tutorial https://lemmy.sdf.org/pictrs/image/29e1bbe4-f4a0-4481-8e6d-36ffcdd946ce.png
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16:43 < anelli> ssm_: real
16:44 < Bradipo> I guess I don't get it.
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16:52 < parai> hi everyone, having a goofy issue with a external usb keyboard
16:52 < parai> it's a keychron v1
16:53 < parai> works quite fine for a while, until it stops working
16:53 < parai> dmesg says this:
16:53 < parai> uhci3: host controller process error
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16:53 < parai> uhci3: host controller halted
16:53 < parai> anyone have the same issue/know a solution?
16:53 < parai> thx
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16:54 < anelli> Bradipo: it's actually about ssh http://analognowhere.com/
16:54 -!- tarxvfz [~tarxvfz@gateway/tor-sasl/tarxvfz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
16:54 < parai> unplugging and plugging it in back again does nothing
16:55 < ssm_> don't know, but if you're adept with C, grep your error message against src
16:55 < parai> neither changing the cable, or trying a different usb port
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16:56 < Bradipo> anelli: Ahh, ok, that makes more sense.  I thought it was about SMTP (per comment above).
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17:03 < parai> ssm_: i'm pretty mediocre at C, but i'll try my hand looking at the source code
17:03 < sonya> parai: can't say exactly, but usually it happens with loose connector/internals.. unplug should help.. but it's not - try to reboot.. check with other OS.. for example, my cheap chinese usb-splitter works only when it want (quality is worse than 'bad')..
17:03 < parai> rebooting works, other operating system works as well
17:04 < sonya> then i guess smth inside.. mechanical or 'glue' or else..
17:06 < jonadab> I've done a fair amount of work with POP3, but my knowledge of SMTP is limited to the bits required to test that a mail server is working.
17:07 < parai> the weird thing is that it fails at some point after the reboot
17:08 < parai> might be the mouse emulation the keyboard does maybe
17:08 < sibiria> ssm_: in a nutshell, converting maildir to mbox is just a case of concatenating all the maildir files together with a suitable separator
17:08 < parai> i can control the cursor with it - maybe openbsd gets confused?
17:08 < sibiria> maildir is just individual envelopes, mbox is all of them in one file
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17:09 < sibiria> culprits like dovecot may occasionally involve their own custom rubbish in the files, but generally sohuldn't be a problem
17:09 < jonadab> Eww, mbox format.
17:09 < sibiria> maildir = lots of single little mbox files :p
17:09 < sibiria> if e.g. opensmtpd is picking doing the maildir delivery, each file will be clean and compliant
17:10 < sibiria> -picking*
17:10 < Bradipo> Not quite...
17:10 < Bradipo> mbox has a nasty >From secret.
17:10 < sibiria> that's the separator
17:11 < Bradipo> It's more than just a separator.
17:11 < jonadab> It's a form of special-character escaping.
17:11 < sibiria> needs *some* separator. that's the one
17:11 < jonadab> But it's applied situationally.
17:11 < Bradipo> If it were as simple as a separator, you could easily just concatenate Maildir files into a single file and call it mbox.
17:12 < anelli> Bradipo: i thought the same at first xD
17:12 < sibiria> it's that simple and it is just a separator... look at how thunderbird does it, as an example
17:12 < Bradipo> mbox "works", but after years of using Maildir, I would have a hard time going back to it.
17:13 < jonadab> mbox also has serious performance problems when you have hundreds of thousands of messages and want to open a specific one.
17:14 < sibiria> yes, and to some degree so does a file system, when you have hundreds of thousands of files
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17:14 < jonadab> Granted, if you're one of those people who deletes all your email as soon as it arrives, that isn't a problem for you.
17:14 < sibiria> it's why mutt and thunderbird etc. indexes their mbox files
17:14 < Bradipo> The separator is actually "From " which means that any message that has a line beginning with "From " must be escaped.  Which means *altering* all messages.  But having all messages in a single flat file just seems like a recipe for trouble.
17:14 < jonadab> Sure, but then the index isn't standard and other software doesn't know how to use it.
17:15 < sibiria> they index themselves when facing the mbox file
17:15 < Bradipo> Well, altering all messages that have "From " in them.  That never happens though, right? :-)
17:15 < jonadab> Isn't it "From: "?
17:15 < Bradipo> No.
17:15 < sibiria> that's the header. From [stuff here] is the separator
17:16 < Bradipo> Right.
17:16 < jonadab> (It's been a while since I messed with mbox, so I could just be forgetting.)
17:16 < jonadab> Ah, right.
17:16 < sibiria> also, the From separator isn't "escaped". it's isolated by standard CRLF the same way all the headers in the e-mail are. it's a single-line type of header
17:16 < Bradipo> It has to be escaped when written to disk.
17:16 < sibiria> it really is not complex to deal with
17:17 < Bradipo> The "From " separator isn't escaped, no, but occurrences of "From " in the body must be.
17:17 < jonadab> Well, it's not *ambiguous* to deal with.  Unlike some formats I've seen.
17:18 < sonya> parai: sorry, can't advise as i don't have such device.. for pointer control i used xmodmap/setxkbmap/xbindkeys mapped to numpad.. 
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17:25 < sibiria> Bradipo: in the old original mbox format they have to, yes
17:25 < sibiria> berkley mbox
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17:28 < sibiria> pretty much everything these days use mbox content-length. From separator is just an isolated header, nothing needs to be escaped, you can just join the maildir files
17:28 < Bradipo> Yeah, I suppose "mbox" might be ambiguous now.
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17:29 < sibiria> there's a handful variants by now at least
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17:48 < jonadab> Oh, I don't think I was aware of the modifications to the format.
17:48 < jonadab> I haven't used mbox in a _while_
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17:49 < jonadab> So when I hear "mbox" format, yes, I definitely think of the version where "From" has to be escaped in certain cases.
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17:53 < sibiria> it's certainly a bit archaic when compared to the Maildir approach
17:53 < sibiria> a child of its time
17:53 < sibiria> but gets the job done for small setups
17:55 < BasketCase> every time I start to replace mbox with Maildir I remember how much I love mboxgrep compared to searching from an imap client and I change my mind.
17:56 < Bradipo> IMAP is the only way to access Maildir?
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17:59 < sibiria> no, some software just scan the dirs in real time, some index the dir listings (and optionally more)
18:00 < sibiria> either equally useful since Maildir stores flags in the envelopes' file names
18:01 < sibiria> making POP3 + Maildir entirely possible, and leaner than IMAP for most uses
18:03 < ssm_> mblaze can handle maildir I think
18:04 < BasketCase> no, Maildir is still files.  just craploads of them.  I like that I can mboxgrep an entire email account and end up with a new folder containing the emails that match.
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19:30 < vortexx> ssm_: did it work with mutt?
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20:04 < ssm_> vortexx: ran into some firewalling issues so I didn't try yet
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20:24 < ssm_> vortexx: okay I'm doing it. it seems to be working pretty well, although it takes a minute with the larger maildirs
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20:27 < Bradipo> ssm_: Make sure you have backups of the originals.
20:27 < ssm_> mutt command uses delete=no, so it's all good there
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22:04 < vortexx> ssm_: glad to hear it's working
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23:20 < vortexx> nice, the 7.7 ports tree has landed, I can start building my packages
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23:23 < vortexx> got 7.7 release built and installed on the package builder VM
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 08 00:00:33 2025