--- Log opened Fri Apr 11 00:00:37 2025
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00:40 < fart_cat> https://www.openbsd.org/plus77.html how to see change log on 7-7?
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00:54 < ssm_> fart_cat: cd /usr/src/; cvs diff -rOPENBSD_7_{6,7}
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00:54 < ssm_> 77.html isn't written yet
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00:55 < ssm_> there's some sections done but you'll need to wait for the actual release first
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00:59 < fart_cat> ok
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02:16 < thrig> cd /usr/src && cvs ...
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02:29 < usagi_mimi> I'm still getting a freeze when upgrading to the latest snapshots
02:30 < usagi_mimi> On reboot is gets to "/bsd: softraid0 at root \ /bsd: scsibus1 at softraid0: 256 target" then refuses to go any further until I manually reboot again using the power button. Then it'll pass by it on next boot and finish the upgrade. 
02:31 < usagi_mimi> Is there some way to log it? I checked /var/log and it doesn't seem to be able to save logs when this happens. I was going to send in a bug report but I don't know what to include other than my dmesg. Another person here said they had the same problem on a similar system (thinkpad laptop) but they didn't know what to send in either.
02:32 < usagi_mimi> I'm starting to wonder if it's related to disk encryption somehow. It doesn't seem to be able to access the nvme during warm boots.
02:36 < usagi_mimi> I found a similar bug repot on the mailing list about a week ago for some Apple laptop but there was zero follow up and I don't think it was fixed. The person reporting mentioned if they waited for 10,000+ seconds it would sometimes be able to finish without the manual shutdown+boot. But discussion seems to have died sometime in 2022 IIRC
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07:35 < vortexx> usagi_mimi: sounds like the kernel hangs at filesystem mount, so no way to log
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10:19 < jfsimon> Good morning, i will try to see if a MCU variant of OpenBSD can be built, that is, when we don't have a physical MMU.
10:20 < jfsimon> Though external Flash & Ram available, and a couple hundred MHz MCU as host ...
10:21 < IcePic> a lot of the things that make openbsd what it is depends on having an mmu
10:23 < jfsimon> Ok, i saw work on olderversion 2.11 bsd that runs without mmu, i'm not sure it's achievable here, or stripping down the kernel and applications a huge deal, which is fine.
10:24 < jfsimon> I don't want run many applications, will be mostly the kernel and a couple networking applications.
10:25 < IcePic> just saying that it isnt a feature like "accelerated gfx" or "being able to dma from a scsi disk", it is used for the on-demand paging in of binaries as they run, extending stack, basically all of mmap() usage on top of which malloc() is based
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10:26 < jfsimon> Ok
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10:27 < jfsimon> If it needs specific implementations of these functions though that's possible.
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10:29 < IcePic> even though my list was only a short list of the top of my mind, the implications are deep in the kernel. stack extension for instance, its not that when its time to extend it you call some do_mmu_stack_extension(), its the other way around, just because your process runs over into memory it doesn't own, the mmu triggers a page fault, and the response to that is to allocate another page (limits 
10:29 < IcePic> permitting) and the restarting the instruction again, now with more stack
10:30 < IcePic> so if you don't have an mmu, it never triggers and all processes would be trampling over any and all memory. So its quite built in since long in the BSD derivates of today
10:32 < jfsimon> i kind of see, i would like avoid for this project, to need an application cpu, i y et try figure our if that's possible using a stripped version of the kernel.
10:34 < IcePic> I think this may be one of those cases where "if you have to ask, the answer is no"
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10:35 < jfsimon> Possibly, there are variants of the bsd 4.4 kernel called LiteBSD, that was an attemp to it.
10:36 < jfsimon> Then the project i recall, moved to a more ancient 2.11 and that proved to work, but it's quite old.
10:36 < IcePic> litebsd did target a pic that comes with mmu
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10:37 < jfsimon> Will check that further thanks
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10:39 < jfsimon> Yep it seems that's why he continued to dev on 2.11 (RetroBSD)
10:39 < IcePic> I think "best" would be to take the 2.11BSD and import parts into it
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10:41 < jfsimon> Ok either find the range of mcu with virtual memory (pic32mz would be fine) or start from 2.11
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10:52 < IcePic> just having an mmu is no guarantee that you can get anything resembling openbsd booting on it, but its a definite requirement
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10:53 < jfsimon> I see
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11:07 < jfsimon> Not sure yet i'm always struggling, i'll have to see if a port of a more recent bsd can run without mmcu, because main target at the moment was MCU which don't have mmu.
11:09 < IcePic> most modern thing I've heard of to run without mmu would be uClinux
11:10 < IcePic> apart from rtos's and things, but those seldom look anything like unix
11:11 < jfsimon> indeed i think ucL faded away, then there are many variants of rtos, i was quite fond of the 2.11 retrobsd.
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11:16 < IcePic> Oh, I'm fond of bsds too, just dont know of anything serious that doesnt require mmu, since it has been a part of bsd since ages, so all parts of it depends on them working as expected
11:18 < jfsimon> like pf and httpd, would they be portable, is what i need understand, 
11:18 < IcePic> yes, though pf (at least after 4.6) did intertwine a lot with the rest of the tcp stack
11:19 < jfsimon> that's the kind of things, if a kernel sort of starting from pre mmu can be compiled and porting these applications is possible, that would do as a starting point
11:20 < IcePic> so many checks for tcp validity was done in both pf and the tcp stack that obsd merged some of them, which I think is one reason for fbsd and macos and other pf importers to stick to the old 4.6 version of pf in their imports and then coding off that one.
11:21 < jfsimon> ok, will have to go now thanks for these highlights
11:22 < jfsimon> i'll investigate a variant of 2.11 and merging applicaions, if that's working well enough, probably will try an attempt into this directin.
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14:15 < WhyNotHugo> i should be fine installing openbsd on one host and then moving the disk onto another, right? both are amd64
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14:18 < Bradipo> WhyNotHugo: I've done that with some success.
14:19 < IcePic> yes, should be easy unless the machines are vastly different, like "install on bios only box" and move to "uefi" or something
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14:24 < sonya> firmware..
14:27  * sonya had fun to read about 0-byte executable  :  https://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/txt/mopb.html
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14:56 < WhyNotHugo> this box (intel imac 2006) only support 32bit EFI. Does OpenBSD support using 32bit bootloader  with a 64bit kernel?
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15:18 < IcePic> WhyNotHugo: not sure which kind of EFI bootloaders work, but in the bad old days, the i386 and amd64 bios boot loaders were identical, it would not jump into 32 or 64 (long) mode, it was the loaded kernel which did that
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15:28 < pardis> I *think* the bootloader would have to do that for UEFI, since for 64-bit UEFI it would load the bootloader in long mode to begin with, so the kernel would be expecting that
15:28 < pardis> the easiest way to find out if that is supported is probably to just try it
15:28 < pardis> I suspect the answer is no, but I have no real information to back that up
15:32 < pardis> actually, /sys/arch/amd64/stand/efiboot has some files named to suggest they are for i386 booting, so you may be in luck
15:34  * oldlaptop would assume that's what BOOTIA32.EFI is for: http://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/7.6/amd64/
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15:36 < oldlaptop> or depending on which message, that's what builds BOOTIA32.EFI
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15:45 < jca> iirc some crippled amd64 machines start in 32 bits UEFI mode, hopefully something of the past.
15:46 < jca> I doubt there's any support for booting OpenBSD/i386 in EFI mode.
15:48 < jca> WhyNotHugo: so the answer to your question is: yes, such a setup should work.  now, no idea whether it's commonly tested, and no idea whether your particular machine would be supported.
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16:00 < oldlaptop> pure-i386 EFI machines would be... what, the earliest intel macs, a few early netbooks? pretty sure the weird amd64-with-32-bit-EFI setups are pretty much the same areas, early intel macs and netbooks
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16:08 < WhyNotHugo> Sounds like it should/could work then. I'll give it a try using BOOTIA32.EFI
16:08 < WhyNotHugo> I'll probably have to tinker with the installation media to replce the typical 64bit loader
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16:10 < oldlaptop> I would expect the installer to be able to deal with that by itself, without tinkering.
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16:13 < oldlaptop> (And if tinkering is needed, it would likely be limited to putting a copy of BOOTIA32.EFI on the ESP, where BOOTX64.EFI would go.)
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16:16 < jca> WhyNotHugo: AFAIK the EFI environment itself is supposed to choose the appropriate file.
16:17 < jca> so it should work out of the box
16:17 < jca> should
16:17 < jca> installboot installs both efi files
16:18 < jca> $ ls /mnt/efi/BOOT/
16:18 < jca> BOOTIA32.EFI  BOOTX64.EFI
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18:21 < ssm_> what's the best (or any) utility to read (or convert) html mail in an mbox (into something preferrably readable by mail(1))? someone recommended mblaze some months ago, but that doesn't work. mutt works, but I don't really like mutt's interface, though maybe it can be scripted to work autonamously to convert html mail.
18:21 < ssm_> mblaze doesn't work because it only works with Maildir as far as I can tell, not mbox*
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18:30 < ssm_> setting PAGER to something is an idea...
18:30 < ssm_> can't just set it to links, since that can't read w3m. I could write a script to make a tmp file and have links read that as pager maybe
18:31 < ssm_> s/w3m/stdin/  :S
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18:57 < xse> ssm_: that might be what aerc does in the pager case https://git.sr.ht/~rjarry/aerc/tree/master/item/filters/html
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19:11 < morpho> my laptop wont boot
19:12 < morpho> the last error i saw on openbsd was programs started crashing then i got a AHCI driver error when i quit xorg
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19:13 < morpho> i dont know if the drive got unplugged internally somehow or if the drives dead or what to do
19:15 < BasketCase> what is the error?
19:15 < BasketCase> and have you other boot media?
19:17 < morpho> i cant get that error again
19:17 < morpho> upon reboot it hangs on the lenovo splash
19:18 < morpho> yeah i might have a obenbsd install about, i need to try and get to boot menu, is there a way to test ram/ssd health from there?
19:19 < BasketCase> not sure, never tried hardware diags from an openbsd install boot
19:20 < morpho> yeah, im downloading 'antix' which is meant to be a good linux live cd?
19:21 < morpho> what would you use?
19:22 < BasketCase> I would use SystemRescueCD  but that is mostly because I already have it setup to be booted over my LAN
19:22 < morpho> ah
19:22 < morpho> can that read openbsd drives?
19:22 < morpho> i dont expect antix to support ufs
19:23 < BasketCase> I believe so but what you really want is smartctl to see if the drive's hardware is good
19:24 < morpho> i dont even think the drives connected anymore
19:26 < BasketCase> well, that would certainly cause it to not work
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19:26 < morpho> this is the last laptop im buyuing
19:26 < ssm_> BasketCase: openbsd comes with a bsd.rd you can boot into. it loads into to ram, and you can copy what you need/can off your bad hardware. or maybe you can just run fsck and everything will work
19:26 < ssm_> just type bsd.rd at the boot prompt
19:27 < BasketCase> yeah, but I wouldn't expect it to have smartctl since that is in ports (smartmontools)
19:27 < morpho> thinkpad x60s 2004 still works? everything manufactured post has malfunctioned.
19:28 < morpho> they dont make em like they used to
19:29 < ssm_> if you have another storage device on hand (usb, {micro-,}sd), you can install to it, chroot and run smartctl inside the chroot. though if anything requires full kernel capabilities you would also want to boot into your fresh install to get the full kernel
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19:30 < farhan> hi all! I am trying to understand the athn/athn_usb code, specifically the newstate handler. I am seeing what *appears* circular to me, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding it.
19:30 < ssm_> hypothetically you could also edit rd0 to be larger and install there, but I don't know how to do this
19:31 < ssm_> rdsetroot is what you use, but that already requires a full install
19:31 < BasketCase> well, openbsd install media would have the same bsd.rd. either it detects the disk or it doesn't
19:32 < BasketCase> if it doesn't your problem isn't software
19:32 < morpho> thanks, il get back
19:33 < ssm_> in that case you can flash miniroot.img to a usb, and then install in place over the usb to get a full install, since miniroot.img loads into ram
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19:34 < ssm_> install*.img would work too, but you'd just write over all the sets when you install so that's kind of pointless
19:34 < BasketCase> he thinks his disk is disconnected or failed.  super complicated diagnostics aren't needd.
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19:35 < farhan> My understanding is that net80211 calls ic->ic_newstate. Following the chain, athn_usb_attachhook assigns ic->ic_newstate to athn_usb_newstate. Then athn_attach assigns sc->sc_newstate to ic->ic_newstate (athn_usb_attach) and ic->ic_newstate to athn_newstate.
19:35 < farhan> So...when ic->ic_newstate is called, it calls athn_newstate...which at the end calls athn_usb_newstate
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19:36 < farhan> athn_usb_newstate calls athn_usb_newstate_cb which...then calls athn_usb_newstate. That seems circular.
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19:36 < farhan> I'm confused...how is that not running forever in a loop?
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19:40 < morpho> BasketCase i have booted into bios, it seems to have detected openbsd and a few previous uefi entries but its taken a really long time
19:41 < BasketCase> seems like a good sign
19:41 < morpho> fingers crossed
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20:23 < morpho> it booted!
20:24 < morpho> ahci0: attempting to idle device
20:24 < morpho> ahci0: couldnt recover NCQ error, failing all outstanding commands
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20:34 < BasketCase> morpho: smartctl -a and see if it has logged any SMART problems
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20:43 < morpho> BasketCase i am on the bsd install, should i try booting from an external medium now
20:43 < BasketCase> if your normal system booted just use that
20:43 < BasketCase> 'pkg_add smartmontools' if you don't have it
20:44 < morpho> oh im not that far into the boot, not got to a login prompt yet
20:44 < BasketCase> oh, well if it is that slow a different boot media might help
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20:45 < morpho> its asking me to run fsck_ffs manually
20:45 < morpho> and left me on an emergency shell i would call it?
20:46 < BasketCase> fun
20:46 < morpho> shit
20:46 < morpho> this mac does not have usb ports
20:46 < morpho> so i dont know how il flash a usb
20:46 < BasketCase> how did you get OpenBSD on there?
20:48 < morpho> oroboros
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20:52 < morpho> https://misc.openbsd.narkive.com/QrTHye5R/help-please-understanding-ahci-error-on-amd64
20:53 < morpho> guessing the ssd died
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21:42 < Michelle> am i missing something fundamental here...?" >> Broken dependency: lang/python/3 non existent "
21:42 < Michelle> (clean ports tree)
21:45 < ssm_> mail/mimedefang seems to do what I want. mimedefang-util --prettyprint doesn't work perfectly, but it works good enough, and it doesn't require figuring out something as "feature rich" as mutt
21:47 < Bradipo> What does mimedefang do?
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21:47 < ssm_> it can work on mail(1)'s pi command with no configuration
21:47 < Bradipo> Are you using mail(1) just to stay in base?
21:47 < ssm_> Bradipo: it lets you take corposhit html mail and "defang" the text/html and other MIME types to make them 90% more readable in plain text
21:48 < ssm_> Bradipo: not to stay in base necessarily, but I really like its design, I like the "editor" and escapes
21:48 < Bradipo> And what is the "pi" command?
21:48 < ssm_> pipe
21:48 < Bradipo> Hmm, I don't see it in the man page.
21:48 < ssm_> alias for |
21:49 < Michelle> mimedefang is a very old milter.. apparently still under development 25 years later.. who'd have thunk it
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21:49 < Bradipo> Hmm, well, all I can see about pipe and | in the man page is a description about addresses.
21:49 < Bradipo> Not about taking the body of a message and sending it through a filter.
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21:58 < skyl4rk> Michelle: on lang/python/3, I'm only rehashing my own web search results a few days ago, but it seems that if you download the ports tar it does not have the 3/ for some reason, but you can get it by updating the ports tree with anoncvs
21:59 < uwharrie> Michelle: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=173904093803606&w=2
21:59 < skyl4rk> (my terminology might be whack)
22:01 < Michelle> thanks... i did wonder .. haven't done my due diligence.. new to running up OpenBSD in anger
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22:11 < ssm_> what's up with processes having more residential than virtual size?
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22:17 < ssm_> Michelle: I ran `grep -Fil milter /usr/ports/*/*/pkg/DESCR` but couldn't find any other milters for html mail besides mimedefang
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22:21 < Bradipo> ssm_: Are you trying to plug this into an SMTP filter chain or something?
22:21 < Bradipo> You could just use w3m.
22:21 < Bradipo> w3m -T text/html -dump -
22:22 < Bradipo> Oh, well, I'm not sure if w3m reads from stdin... to be tested.
22:22 < ssm_> Bradipo: I tried w3m but it doesn't actually parse the html section as html. I'm feeding it an mbox file
22:22 < ssm_> I tried some flags to force it but nothing I tried worked
22:22 < Bradipo> Oh you're giving it a complete file...
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22:22 < Bradipo> I don't know if it would be smart enough to self-synchronize.
22:23 < Bradipo> But if you're using mbox, doesn't that have more than one message in it?
22:23 < ssm_> I used it on a message extracted from an mbox file with the s command in mail(1) specifically
22:23 < ssm_> not the whole mbox file
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22:24 < Bradipo> Do you have an option to extract a range of lines from the message?
22:25 < Bradipo> Or even to pass a range of lines through a filter?
22:25 < ssm_> I can pipe it into awk with NR>=n :p
22:25 < Bradipo> Well, if you're going to go that route...
22:25 < Bradipo> You should instead use sed.
22:25 < ssm_> true
22:26 < Bradipo> sed -n -e 'x,yp'
22:26 < Bradipo> Where x,y is a range of lines to print.
22:27 < ssm_> | printf '4,$p\nq\n' | ed -s
22:27 < ssm_> ignore first pipe
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22:29 < Bradipo> Sure ed works too.
22:29 < Bradipo> Any reason to prefer it over sed in this case?
22:30 < ssm_> nah, just having fun
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22:46 < cgnarne> ed is the standard editor after all
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22:53 < Bradipo> Except most Linux distros these days don't have it.
22:54 < Bradipo> And they also don't have dc.
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23:04 < Michelle> ssm_, I am new to OpenBSD so i don't know what's in the ports tree atm.. however if you're just looking for something to strip HTML out of email - i wrote something years ago
23:04 < Michelle> I could dig it up if you're desperate
23:06 < Michelle> but the other obvious question would be are you looking for a milter to do it or just something to strip HTML tags/content from an email - in which case you might want to go down a different path as I'm sure there are python and perl modules that can do that for you.
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23:13 < sibiria> ssm_: residential is the process' unique footprint, virtual is its shared footprint. or something like that?
23:19 < Bradipo> ssm_: I suppose something like nmh is out of the question?
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23:31 < ssm_> Bradipo: nothing's out the question, I'm new to this sort of filtering
23:32 < ssm_> only requirement is that I'd like to be able to read with PAGER in mail(1)
23:34 < Bradipo> Well, nmh is a complete MUA, not just a filter.
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23:35 < Bradipo> Though it's not at all like mutt, pine, or any other Unix MUA.
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23:56 < seninha> mblaze is also a set-of-utilities like nmh, but for maildir(5) format (and mbox)
23:56 < seninha> (I use mblaze to convert my rss feed into maildir to read on mutt)
23:57 -!- Xenguy_ is now known as Xenguy
23:57 -!- wnh [~Thunderbi@user/wnh] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
23:58 < seninha> mblaze also has a mime exctractor filter
23:58 -!- fflam_ [~mdt@2600:4040:1100:cc00::1c19] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
--- Log closed Sat Apr 12 00:00:38 2025