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02:13 < ssm_> does our nvi have any mechanism for running motion commands (say, 2dW to delete 2 bigwords) over multiple lines? of course you can just manually move down line by line spamming .  but that obviously not great. It looks like the @ or * command to execute a buffer in ex has potential if you pass it a buffer with the motion?
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02:16 < Bradipo> ssm_: I believe so.
02:17 < Bradipo> But 2dW is a bit arbitrary...
02:17 < Bradipo> Which 2 words do you want it to delete on a line?
02:18 < ssm_> could be a date followed by an arbitrary username. I know I could just write a bre experession for it, but that's maybe slower for interactive use
02:19 < ssm_> I could also potentially fill some buffers for execution in an rc on init
02:23 < Bradipo> Actually, I don't know if what you're trying to do is possible.
02:23 < Bradipo> @ can execute a buffer, sure, but what are you going to put in the buffer that will do it over multiple lines?
02:24 < Bradipo> I use @ all the time, but haven't ever tried it over multiple line except when using it with g to match lines based upon a pattern.
02:24 < ssm_> yeah that's the problem, and if I try to run @ inside ex, it runs as an ex command instead of a vi command which is obviously not what I want
02:25 < Bradipo> e.g. save this in a buffer x and execute it with x@ :g/something/s/abc/xyz/
02:25 < Bradipo> Right, and this is an ex command, and it doesn't know about dW
02:26 < Bradipo> Maybe you could instead use a map?
02:26 < Bradipo> Then you have a single key that executes your 2dW and moves you down a line... then you just press that key as often as you want.
02:28 < Bradipo> But you forget that 2dW already has a motion in it...
02:29 < Bradipo> the W is technically a motion, right?
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02:34 < Bradipo> ssm_: For example, this map will do what I said above: map ^[OQ 2dWj
02:34 < Bradipo> Where ^[ is the escape character.  Then you put your cursor wherever you think appropriate and press F2 as many times as you think you want.
02:35 < Bradipo> It's kind of sloppy in my opinion, but it works.
02:35 < ssm_> Bradipo: thanks, the manpage has basically no information on maps
02:36 < Bradipo> Yes, maps are kind of a black art. :-)
02:36 < Bradipo> Basically, it's like the man page says...
02:36 < Bradipo> map[!] [lhs rhs]
02:37 < Bradipo> There used to be a postscript document that shipped with OpenBSD that was the complete vi reference... not sure where it went.
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02:44 < byteskeptical> Bradipo: https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/src/usr.bin/vi/docs/tutorial/
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02:44 < Bradipo> Yeah, I was just browsing that...
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02:45 < Bradipo> Well, I was looking at /usr/src/usr.bin/vi on my local system actually.
02:46 < Bradipo> Though, what I was really thinking of was the USD.doc I think.
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02:50 < Bradipo> (See section 6.9 for a description of the map command.)
02:51 < Bradipo> I'm not able to find this section 6.9.
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02:56 < Bradipo> ssm_: This document gives a little more detail about the map command in vi: https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.bin/vi/docs/USD.doc/vi.ref/Attic/vi.ref.txt
02:56 < Bradipo> And now I finally understand map[!] vs map!
02:56 < Bradipo> Sorry, map[!] vs map 
02:57 < Bradipo> map[!] is for input mode.
02:57 < Bradipo> "To  exit an infinitely looping map, use the terminal <interrupt> character."
02:57 < Bradipo> Fun, so maps can have loops.
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03:04 < phy1729> This is why vim has :noremap
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03:07 < byteskeptical> phy1729: so do openbsd's vi
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03:08 < byteskeptical> Bradipo: newer version in mandoc as well: https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.bin/vi/docs/USD.doc/vi.ref/vi.ref?rev=1.14&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=MAIN
03:09 < Bradipo> That document doesn't discuss map.
03:13 < byteskeptical> seems to have been moved to https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.bin/vi/docs/USD.doc/exref/ex.rm?rev=1.9&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&only_with_tag=MAIN
03:14 < byteskeptical> at some point, interestingly mentions section 6.8 for more details
03:15 < Bradipo> I thought it was section 6.9...
03:15 < Bradipo> Either way, I'm not sure where 6.9 is.
03:15 < byteskeptical> not in this document at least
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03:16 < anelli> nice
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03:30 < mischief> why not just use vim
03:30 < mischief> i have one very tiny, and rarely ever used commit in vim :-)
03:31 < anelli> personally i love vi way more. love simple stuff
03:31 < anelli> and don't need syntax highlighting or all the fancy stuf
03:32 < anelli> unicode would be epic tho
03:33 < anelli> and the annoying split window break when u resize term xD talking about that how do i get that split window back?
03:33 < byteskeptical> I like vim for certain things but going back and forth you really notice the lag at least on openbsd
03:33 < anelli> it seems to hide in the bg only to be found when i :wq the current file
03:36 < mischief> i guess i don't use vi enough since i always run vim and have no complaints about lag
03:37 < mischief> even over ssh on my celeron J4115
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03:44 < anelli> fairs
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03:59 < Bradipo> mischief: I stopped using vim over 15 years ago.
03:59 < anelli> based
03:59 < Bradipo> anelli: Is the split the same file or a different file?
04:00 < anelli> different one
04:00 < Bradipo> So you have 2 files open?
04:00 < anelli> yeah
04:00 < anelli> resize tmux pane and one is gone
04:01 < Bradipo> Yeah, I know what you mean.
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04:06 < Bradipo> When you resize, it emits this warning: 1 screens backgrounded; use :display to list them
04:06 < Bradipo> So you can type: disp s
04:06 < Bradipo> And it will show the other one.
04:07 < anelli> yeah i used it. it's just manual to get back
04:08 < anelli> :E filename    again
04:08 < Bradipo> RIght, I was going to suggest :E
04:08 < Bradipo> But there may be a better way.
04:08 < anelli> oh?
04:08 < Bradipo> May... I'm not sure.
04:08 < Bradipo> I'm currently trying to figure out how to get back the previous screen.
04:09 < Bradipo> ":disp s" returns a file name for me... but :E <filename> isn't opening it in split mode for some reason.
04:11 < Bradipo> Aha, that's it...
04:11 < Bradipo> It's ":Fg"
04:11 < Bradipo> :Fg will bring the screen that's in the background back to the foreground and split the screen.
04:11 < anelli> oh wowo nice lemme try
04:13 < anelli> works :3 thx a lot for looking into it
04:13 < Bradipo> Yeah, I knew it existed, I just hadn't used it very often so I had to look at the man page again.
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04:13 < anelli> fairs
04:14 < Bradipo> Have you ever experimented with split screens on the same file?
04:15 < anelli> hmmm once 
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04:15 < anelli> lemme c if it's any different
04:15 < anelli> it acts te same
04:15 < Bradipo> Well, it allows you to edit the same document but have the cursor at different locations in the document.
04:15 < anelli> it's nice for big files yeah
04:15 < Bradipo> Start with a blank document (e.g. vi /tmp/doc.txt), then type :Vi
04:16 < anelli> oh
04:16 < anelli> dam that quick
04:16 < Bradipo> That will split it.  Then go into insert mode and type a line, then press escape.
04:16 < anelli> i did :E filename
04:16 < Bradipo> That change in one screen will instantly reflect in the next.
04:17 < anelli> it does hehe. snazzy
04:18 < Bradipo> But right, good for big files.
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05:18 < Posterdati> hi
05:18 < Posterdati> :( nithing yet? :)
05:18 < Posterdati> nothing yet? :)
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07:31 < avemestr> Posterdati: Are you referring to https://www.openbsd.org/77.html ?
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08:02 < Posterdati> avemestr: yes :)
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08:16 < lts> "Allowed pfctl(8) specification of interface and queue bandwidths greater than ~4Gbit." Hallelujah!
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08:42 < IcePic> lts: yeah, cap them high-bw b*sterds
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08:50 < lts> On the contrary, I assume this will mean my internal 10Gbit NICs can be configured to actually transmit 10Gbit over queues, instead of being limited to 4Gbit like they are now :-) 
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12:07 < WhyNotHugo> I'm writing a port where compiling requires that I `cp config.mk.in config.mk`. How do I express this in a port's Makefile?
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12:30 < WhyNotHugo> pre-build works. I don't see these targets documtend anywhere
12:41 < Lucas_> WhyNotHugo: https://man.openbsd.org/bsd.port.mk#TARGETS
12:41 < Lucas_> 5th item
12:41 < WhyNotHugo> thanks!
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16:45 < RobbieAB> Looks like I might have my openbsd minecraft server working! 
16:46 < ghane>  /21
16:46 < phy1729> I thought the latest version still needed an lwjgl update
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17:01 < RobbieAB> phy1729: Possibly, if I was running the client.
17:01 < RobbieAB> Game clients will be on kids desktops... I'm not quite sadistic enough to force openbsd desktops on them
17:02 < anelli> RobbieAB: we got doom and quake :b
17:02 < anelli> they can play
17:02 < RobbieAB> anelli: but no steam... :(
17:02 < anelli> put on kde i think 
17:03 < anelli> RobbieAB: tell them "this is a foss household!" jk xD
17:03 < sibiria> fundamentalist family
17:03 < anelli> real
17:03 < RobbieAB> anelli: I am standing firm about Windows... It's why they have Xboxes
17:03 < anelli> RobbieAB: but yeah lotsa steam games play. u can download em with steamcmd and stuff. hl1/2 and cruelity squad come to mind
17:03 < anelli> RobbieAB: that's fair
17:05 < RobbieAB> Xboxes pretty much cover the majority of the Windows games demands (so far). Steam on Linux covers the rest.
17:07 < anelli> steam deck sounds good
17:07 < anelli> but ya steam on linux better
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17:15 < Bradipo> RobbieAB: All my PCs at home are running OpenBSD.  Kids cope.
17:15 < anelli> based
17:16 < phy1729> RobbieAB: ah, I might be (look it's easier to manage!)
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17:51 < vortexx> Bradipo: but how many dualboot? :)
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17:54 < Bradipo> Soon to be at least one because apparently Blender on OpenBSD doesn't use GPU for rendering. :-)
17:55 < vortexx> I've got a hw question: I have a homelab server with 4x3.5" slots and 2x2.5" plus a PCI-E 3.0 x16 slot that has a raid card in it. Spinning rust in all the drive slots. Mobo has 4 unused S-ATA connectors. I'm wondering if I could remove the 3.5" drive backplane that provides SAS functionality (hot swap) for the 3.5" drives, get 3.5" enclosures that hold multiple (4?) m.2 SSD and the same again for 2.5" 
17:55 < vortexx> drive slots. Could that work (keeping the raid card and using the right cables to be able to connect all the drives to it, it can handle up to 255 normally)?
17:56 < mischief> what interface would the m.2 drives use? sata?
17:56 < vortexx> yes S-ATA
17:57 < mischief> kinda slow don't you think
18:00 < vortexx> well the only other solution would be to just replace the raid card with a 4x m.2 card ?
18:00 < vortexx> this is a five year old box, it's done a great job so far even drives have failed here or there
18:01 < vortexx> I was just wondering how to best expand storage whilst improving speed a bit if possible (not all drives are 7200rpm)
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18:03 < sibiria> i think SATA is just fine still when it comes to openbsd. disk i/o so slow it's almost a challenge to saturate SATA 6's ~550 mb/sec limit
18:04 < vortexx> s/even drives/even if drives
18:05 < vortexx> yeah I don't need super speed, just want to be able to add more m.2 SSDs as budget allows
18:06 < vortexx> the raid card handles adding drives on it's own
18:06 < vortexx> megacli ftw :P
18:06 < vortexx> (works best with bash, strangely enough :P)
18:10 < Bradipo> megacli is on OpenBSD?
18:11 < vortexx> homelab runs FreeBSD
18:11 < Bradipo> Ahh.
18:11 < vortexx> I doubt it works on OpenBSD, I should try to see
18:11 < vortexx> (I need Windows VM support so I couldn't stick to vmd)
18:12 < Bradipo> Yeah, vmd still has a ways to go.
18:14 < mischief> to be fair my storage box is just two 14T sata disks :P
18:15 < mischief> i tried getting LVM caching working on linux to no avail
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18:20 < vortexx> mischief: as raid1 or 0? Or just concat?
18:20 < vortexx> or jbod?
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20:17 < Bradipo> 'tis a shame that .edu organizations no longer host their own email.
20:17 < Bradipo> It's all outsourced.
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20:19 < tux0r> from my own experiences during my studies at a german university, let me tell you that it is - unironically - a REALLY good idea that .edu organizations don't do tech things themselves.
20:20 < Bradipo> No spirit of adventure left in the univerity. :-)
20:21 < Bradipo> gmu.edu does have an MX that isn't Google or Microsoft, though it looks like they are running an "appliance" for it.
20:23 < Bradipo> At least in .de there's tutanota.de. :-)
20:25 -!- johnjaye [~pi@syn-035-146-235-019.res.spectrum.com] has joined #openbsd
20:26 < tux0r> in .de i run my own mail server, the poolp tutorial was REALLY helpful for that, but OH BOY i NEVER EVER want to have to do that again
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20:27  * tux0r caresses his mailserver-config backups
20:27 < Bradipo> Just make sure you have backups.
20:27 < johnjaye> tux0r: is the tutorial generic or more openbsd specific?
20:28 < tux0r> Bradipo: yup: one mailserver-data with the mails, one mailserver-config. once a night, kept for three months, all stored on a only-backup server in another country.
20:28 < Bradipo> Things like SPF, DKIM, DMARC have made email less "fun".
20:28 < tux0r> johnjaye: generic, but specifically using openbsd tools: https://poolp.org/posts/2019-09-14/setting-up-a-mail-server-with-opensmtpd-dovecot-and-rspamd/
20:29 < tux0r> Bradipo: e-mail was never "fun" to be honest, but it's still less horrible than messengers
20:29 < johnjaye> ah ok. would you recommend experimenting at my personal ISP or buying a VMs or how does it do it
20:29 < tux0r> i have a number of VMs 
20:29 < johnjaye> i've heard they can ban you for large volumes of spam if you misconfigure your email and it lets in a lot
20:30 < Bradipo> Well, that's the trouble with email, it's less fun because there is this nebulous term called "spam" that people bandy about.
20:30 < tux0r> yup, my first attempts at running a mail server (freebsd, postfix.. i still have nightmares!) were banned within a day
20:30 < tux0r> i learned a lot from that
20:30 < Bradipo> What's wrong with "large volumes" of email?  "large volume" doesn't necessarily mean "maclicious".  We have 100X large volumes of other kinds of protocol data and it's not labeled "spam".
20:31 < tux0r> "large volumes of spam" are not "large volumes of email"
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20:31 < Bradipo> And as for "letting in a lot of spam", isn't that something that *you* have the prerogative to accept if you want?
20:31 < tux0r> .. ok, marketing people would disagree ;o)
20:31 < Bradipo> Heck, if I want to sign up to hundreds of spam sources, and have that "come in" to my server, isn't that my business?
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20:32 < Bradipo> So an ISP that bans me because I receive too much spam, well, tough.
20:32 < tux0r> outbox is the relevant thing, not inbox
20:32 < Bradipo> I'll find a better ISP.
20:32 < Bradipo> Well, johnjaye said "lets in a lot".
20:32 < tux0r> if your mail server is banned, it's mostly because any spammer is "let in"
20:32 < Bradipo> I assume that means inbox.
20:33 < Bradipo> At any rate, this looks like an interesting read: https://poolp.org/posts/2019-12-15/decentralised-smtp-is-for-the-greater-good/
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20:35 < johnjaye> well i assume it's because bandwidth costs money?
20:35 < johnjaye> idk i'm not an expert on email
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20:37 < Bradipo> It's impossible to exceed your bandwidth though unless you have a contract that allows bursting, and email is highly unlikely to exceed any bandwidth anyway.
20:37 < Bradipo> One is more likely to exceed bandwidth doing Youtube videos all day long.
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20:39 < Bradipo> tux0r: Congrats on using OpenSMTPD to host your own email.
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20:44 < Bradipo> I wonder what the author of that article thinks of services like Cloudflare... it seems that more and more I'm unable to access sites "protected" by Cloudflare.
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20:51 < tux0r> Bradipo: opensmtpd is SO REFRESHING compared to what came before
20:52 < tux0r> still "not quite easy", but at least i know wtf the config does
20:52 < e54> anyone here use nnn file manager? try to create archive with nnn and get error creating tar
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20:53 < e54> using "-B" argument to nnn should use bsdtar? Not working
20:53 < Bradipo> tux0r: I don't know what came before.  I've been a qmail user and remain so.
20:54 < ivdsangen> tux0r: hopefully so, i used to run sendmail and dovecot on openbsd a long time ago for personal email, that took some hair pulling to configure right back then
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20:55 < Bradipo> I've done minimal configuration of opensmtpd and it's definitely better than sendmail.
20:55 < ivdsangen> yes, the config i use today for smtpd only relays to $email_provider and its very clear
20:56 < ivdsangen> (its a local config, not exposed to the internet anymore)
20:58 < RobbieAB> I would assume "large volumes of spam" from a starting out MX administration suggests "open-relay"
20:58 < RobbieAB> In which case, yes, the ISP will ban you, rightfully so.
20:59 < tux0r> dovecot is still the best choice for IMAP(S) though
21:00 < tux0r> sendmail had and has its own set of historical baggage
21:00 < tux0r> sadly
21:00 < ivdsangen> dovecot was always the easy part of the setup
21:00 < Bradipo> I think we're using the term "ISP will ban you" too loosely.
21:00 < RobbieAB> Oh, I looked at setting up my email on openbsd with dovecot and opensmtpd when google threatened to charge me for the privilege of reading all my email (instead of only half of it)
21:01 < Bradipo> What does that mean?  Does that mean that the ISP that I pay for connectivity will ban?  Or does that mean that the ISP to which my mail server tries to send will ban?
21:01 < RobbieAB> Bradipo: There ARE ISPs who will take action against openrelays on their networks.
21:01 < Bradipo> Oh sure, no doubt about open relays.
21:01 < RobbieAB> Normally, the easy fix is simply to kill your port 25 one way or the other.
21:01 < Bradipo> I'm not talking about open relays though.  I'm talking about "large volumes" of legitimate email.
21:02 < RobbieAB> I doubt there are any ISPs that actually do that, agreed. :)
21:02 < Bradipo> My word, if Google can handle billions of searches against their infrastructure, why are they like a sow when it comes to receiving a few thousand emails?
21:02 < Bradipo> RobbieAB: Well, I know that my ISP routinely probes my SMTP server to see if it's an open relay.
21:02 < Bradipo> That's fine, I don't worry about it.
21:03 < RobbieAB> I could run a mail-server on my home IP, and my ISP wouldn't mind... business internet has some benefits.
21:03 < RobbieAB> They WOULD care if I started running an openrelay though, because that impacts their IP reputation scores.
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21:04 < Bradipo> Right, and that makes sense.
21:04 < Bradipo> I'm not talking about open relays though, I assume that they will get blacklisted either by the ISP who owns the IP space or some other RBL.
21:05 < Bradipo> I have some small mailing lists and Gmail routinely returns temporary fail 4xx to "throttle" the volume, despite that they are all legitimate.
21:05 < RobbieAB> I just said that I would assume "starting out" mail admin getting "banned by their ISP" probably inadvertently setup an open relay and wasn't dealin with a large amount of legitimate traffic.
21:06 < tux0r> yup, that's what i did first
21:06 < RobbieAB> It used to be ridiculously easy to do it.
21:06 < Bradipo> And it's not even that much, probably not more than 25--50 emails send to @gmail.com on any given day.
21:06 < tux0r> "just run postfix with example.conf"
21:06 < tux0r> TL;DR: don't
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21:07 < tux0r> and even if you finally managed to run a non-bannable mail server, try to find a good client.. heh..
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21:09 < RobbieAB> tux0r: telnet of course!
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21:11 < tux0r> RobbieAB: enjoy gnupg-encrypting your e-mails over telnet.
21:11 < tux0r> especially if you use imap folders, which i do.
21:11 < RobbieAB> What? You can't do it in your head? What kind of unix admin are you?! :o
21:12 < tux0r> i could
21:12 < Bradipo> tux0r: All email clients suck.
21:12 < tux0r> the only irc client i have ever written myself was basically "telnet in a loop" as well. but i am lazy.
21:12 < RobbieAB> Joking aside, it really is a case of fine the email client which sucks least offensively to you.
21:12 < tux0r> Bradipo: some suck less ;o)
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21:13 < Bradipo> But at least if you run your own email you have a choice of dozens of email clients.
21:14 < tux0r> depends on the OS
21:14 < Bradipo> Hopefully then you find one that you like.  Otherwise, what are your choices?  Gmail (terrible in my opinion)?
21:14 < Bradipo> roundcubemail isn't any worse than Gmail in my opinion and it does have some nice features (aliases for example).
21:15 < mischief> turns out i was an idiot and used the wrong kind of cache. seems to work great now
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21:15 < Bradipo> LVM cache?
21:15 < mischief> i had used cache and wanted writecache. :-)
21:15 < mischief> unfortunate openbsd doesn't have something similar
21:16 < tux0r> Bradipo: my primary desktop OS is a mac (sorry :-)) and we basically have the options "subscription cloud shit", "apple mail" (not THAT bad, but not THAT good either), mailmate (decent, but subscription-based from 2.0 onwards) and whatever-runs-on-linux, at least while eudora 8 is still in the making. currently using mu with mu4e inside emacs, works rather nicely. web mail is broken if you want gnupg support. you cannot trust your web 
21:16 < tux0r> browser.
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21:17 < Bradipo> Is Eudora still alive?
21:17 < mischief> uh, can't you use any client you want if you are provided with smtp and imap?
21:17 < Bradipo> You can still due gnupg with webmail... just encrypt *before* you put it in the webmail.
21:17 < tux0r> eudora is alive again. qualcomm had freed the code a while ago, and a few kickstarter blokes took it and made it a new product
21:18 < Bradipo> Nice.  I remember Eudora from many years ago.  That an Pegasus.
21:18 < mischief> i've used mutt and thunderbird with gmail just fine
21:18 < Bradipo> But on a Mac? :-)
21:18 < tux0r> "eudoramail 8" is pay-as-much-as-you-want for windows, the macos version isn't THAT easy, as they need(ed) to port the macos classic version 
21:18 < Bradipo> Sounds like tux0r has been fettered with Mac stuff.
21:18 < tux0r> the one thing i miss from windows: good mail clients
21:18 < mischief> in fact my home firewall is also an unauthenticated smtp relay for my lan that forwards through gmail
21:19 < tux0r> the bat, pegasus.. sigh
21:19 < mischief> so some of my lan hosts can just poop mail at it
21:19 < Bradipo> Yeah, I allow "relay" from anywhere on my network too, why not?
21:19 < Bradipo> If you can hack the firewall, I have bigger problems than worrying about spam originating on my network.
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21:23 < mischief> i'm moving and thinking about reworking my network
21:24 < mischief> my 'server' is just my old desktop with a bunch of disks and my 'firewall' is an odroid h2+
21:24 < mischief> might get a baby rack and buy some real rackmount equipment, though i'm a bit worried about noise since my new apartment is so small
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21:32 < Bradipo> Yeah, you'll want less noise.
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21:35 < anelli> mischief: nah not worth it. get a minipc or somth
21:36 < anelli> ooor laptop
21:36 < anelli> free ups :b
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21:36 < mischief> odroid-h2+ _is_ 'minipc'
21:36 < mischief> laptops lack connectivity
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21:37 < anelli> i mean like instead of the old desktop
21:37 < anelli> mischief: u mean u need 2 nics+
21:37 < anelli> ?*
21:37 < anelli> yeah i had to get a desktop for that cause usb nic was bad
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21:52 < e54> Hello everyone, anyone here use nnn file manager?
21:52 < Bradipo> My file manager is ls, mv, cp, rm, etc...
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21:53 < e54> Bradipo: mine also but just started checking it out. nnn seams pretty legit
21:54 -!- fixou [~fixou@212.114.19.0] has joined #openbsd
21:54 < Bradipo> I can count the number of times I've needed a "file manager" on one, maybe two hands.
21:57 < e54> You don't need two arms but it's nice to have two ;)
21:58 < Bradipo> Analogy in this case doesn't hold.
21:58 < Bradipo> A file manager does not actually give you "two arms" of functionality, but rather, a crutch and walking on crutches sucks and leads to atrophy.
22:00 < tux0r> i found that orthodox file managers like total ;-), double or midnight commander make quite some sense if you use a file manager to... well... manage files. i like the ability to just batch-copy a handful of selected files from the left ("TODO") into the right ("DONE") directory by pressing F5
22:00 < anelli> only non-standard thing i use regularly is tree. it's nice
22:00 < tux0r> ls/cp/mv is "acceptable" for most other tasks though
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22:01 < Bradipo> Well, that's just the tip of the iceberg... then there's find, awk, sed, etc.
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22:01 < anelli> ya ig proper file names nad globs can do a lot
22:01 < anelli> and*
22:01 < tux0r> good file managers have "find a file" functionality built-in without making you think WHICH awk and WHICH sed you have
22:02 < anelli> idk just use standrad 
22:02 < tux0r> "standard"
22:02 < tux0r> heh
22:02 < tux0r> enjoy.
22:02 < Bradipo> But try renaming all files that end in .xyz with .abc, or other things like that.
22:02 < anelli> don't they all have some posix common functionality?
22:02 < tux0r> yes, they don't
22:03 < anelli> tux0r: idk i just checked the sed man page and it says it's complaint 
22:03 < anelli> maybe ur using oses that poorly implement posix
22:03 < tux0r> the language is, the parameters are not
22:03 < tux0r> ex.: sed -i'' or just sed -i?
22:03 < tux0r> :)
22:04 < tux0r> all oses poorly implement posix
22:04 < Bradipo> Or try resampling/scaling a bunch of .MP4 (enter ffmpeg into the array of tools in the "file manager").
22:04 < anelli> tux0r: -i is an extension
22:04 < anelli> it's not posix
22:04 < anelli> sooo yeah just look it up in the manpage if u need a refresher
22:04 < Bradipo> OpenBSD did eventually add support for -i in sed, but I never use it.
22:04 < tux0r> i'd argue that illumos is slightly less non-posix than other contemporary systems. that said, "just use posix" CAN and WILL fail more often than you think
22:05 < anelli> or `sed s/what/whatever/ filename >filename.new' idk
22:05 < tux0r> "just read the man page" does not really work as a good reason to use command line tools over a gui fm, tbh
22:05 < anelli> this sounds like a windows/macos argument sorry
22:06 < tux0r> and this is exactly why the situation is as bad as it obviously is: "you want coherent behavior between two systems? go use windows"
22:06 < anelli> but i get that third party tools can be "consistent" wherever they're intalled
22:06 < anelli> nah it aint that bad
22:06 < anelli> i haven't lost a night of sleep over sed or awk yet
22:07 < tux0r> lucky. i have.
22:07 < anelli> fair :b
22:07 < anelli> i mean use whatever works i just like how simple and efficient standard utils are
22:08 < anelli> even tho i hate posix for not having a way to convert unix epoch to a timestamp in shell....
22:08 < tux0r> i would appreciate "standard utils" somewhat more if everyone could agree on a standard
22:08 < anelli> timestamp -> human time
22:08 < tux0r> even openbsd breaks posix: no SCCS command.
22:08 < tux0r> (and yes, i *do* use sccs)
22:08 < thrig> also rand
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22:09 < anelli> idk jot is good
22:09 < anelli> is nonstandard tho
22:09 < anelli> me use it for me passwords
22:09 < tux0r> see, nonstandard tools are good
22:09 < tux0r> guess why :p
22:09 < anelli> yea it's not black and white yk
22:10 < e54> There are situations when a capable file manager comes in handy.
22:12 < anelli> hopping into a unix and knowing there's a cp command that can take -R is nice
22:12 < anelli> i'm too lazy to install 10 third party programs evertime
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22:15 < tux0r> i love how cp takes -r and -R and (for most people) both do exactly what they want
22:15 < tux0r> i wish scp did
22:15  * tux0r usually mixes them up
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22:20 < anelli> tux0r: it's actually funny i've been using -r for that long and was supposed to use -R :|
22:22 < tux0r> so glad that you know the basics of standard utils. :p
22:23 < anelli> idk if this is sarcasm or not but if it does the job it does the job :P
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22:25 < tux0r> sarcasm? on the internet?! nooo!
22:27 < anelli> tux0r: idk we need tone-coded text ig 
22:29 < tux0r> do we now...
22:29 < anelli> i guess so
22:30 < Bradipo> tux0r: Awesome blinking text, so '90s.
22:30 < anelli> wait i thought that was bold?
22:30 < jxl> anelli: it's probably because of rm's -r option for recursion
22:30 < anelli> jxl: fairs
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22:33 < tux0r> it was white on blue, at least in my client
22:33 < tux0r> and in mIRC, probably
22:33 < Bradipo> It's bolded white on blue but the white is blinking.
22:33 < tux0r> oh
22:33 < tux0r> doesnt blink here
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22:33 < Bradipo> Yeah, you're probably not using a terminal.
22:34 < tux0r> true.
22:34 < sonya> not all terminals support blinking..
22:34 < tux0r> also true. ;-)
22:34 < Bradipo> anelli's response is reverse video it seems, black foreground, white background.
22:35 < jxl> okay, i've been dealing with this for at least 5 releases at this point, but can someone explain to me why there's a hardcoded sleep when we change the backlight brightness?
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22:37 < sonya> jxl: man xorg.conf .. search Option "BlankTime"  "time" and other "*Time".. it doesn't depend on backlight..
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22:38 < jxl> either xbacklight or some X code is sleeping per dimming step, and I remember finding this about a year ago, and it was literally a sleep(5) or somet such
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22:39 < jxl> sonya: all of those are unrelated.
22:40 < sonya> i'm using xbacklight.. no difference.. default xorg "offtime" effective with dpms support..
22:42 < jxl> what does screen timeout have to do with sleeping per step of dimming?
22:43 < jxl> OffTime is the inactivity timeout. I'm not talking about that at all. I don't follow.
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22:44 < Bradipo> Maybe you can rephrase the question.  I'm not clear what "hard coded sleep when we change the backlight brightness" means.
22:44 < sonya> guess so am i.. i'm talking about monitor sleep/standby/off which is effective as described in man..
22:45 < Bradipo> Are you saying that when you change the backlight brightness that it takes some number of sleep(n) before the changes take effect?
22:45 < jxl> sonya: but why are you talking about it? 
22:45 < jxl> Bradipo: exactly
22:45 < jxl> Bradipo: and last I found that bit of code, it was a literal call to sleep(2)
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22:46 < e54> COLOR
22:48 < tux0r> e54 has found the ctrl key
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22:49 < RobbieAB> re the file manager discussion, I have had some success in the past with Thunar (XFCE), especially with some of the plugins. file renaming there is even easier than with shell! 
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22:50 < Bradipo> Yes, thunar isn't bad as far as a "file manager" goes, but XFCE has become super unreliable.
22:50 < e54> tux0r: I didn't even know i could do that with irssi. lol
22:50  * RobbieAB still remembers being given a "rename big pile of files" task where I was expected to do it manually. Took me about 2 minutes in thunar, most of that was figuring out the plugin.
22:50 < e54> help
22:51 < RobbieAB> Bradipo: Well, these days I am mostly a terminal denizen anyway. The one thing I would say GUI file managers are far better than shell for is thumbnails.
22:51 < RobbieAB> Which is very handy with folders full of photos, etc.
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22:52 < sonya> jxl: o'k.. i misunderstood the question.. but man xbacklight has an answer, imho.. -time milliseconds :: Length of time to spend fading the backlight between old and new value.  Default is 200.
22:53 < sonya> along with -steps (20) ..
22:53 < mischief> maybe overkill but this might be a decent upgrade from my current firewall https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/system/mini-itx/sys-e300-9d-4cn8tp.cfm
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22:54 < RobbieAB> Ick, Intel X 10G
22:55 < RobbieAB> Though my take on them may be tainted by some VERY bad experiences before Christmas where they were pretty efficient at taking out some new hypervisors.
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22:58 < mischief> RobbieAB: what other vendor of 10G nics do you think is better?
22:58 < mischief> my server and desktop have 1x 10G aquantia nics in them currently
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22:58 < RobbieAB> Well, we have had no issues with out Broadcom, though they are utterly cheap rubbish. 
22:59 < RobbieAB> And we have some 15 year old Intel 10G NICs that are nice and boring.
22:59 < RobbieAB> We replaced the "smart" X510s (IIRC) with some solarflares, which I agree are a bit of a different class and price point.
22:59 < e54> off topic but that link is to a cold fusion markup file :o  
23:00 < RobbieAB> We had old solarflares we don't want to use in our normal compute servers spare, and they are making nicely boring HV NICs.
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--- Log closed Wed Apr 23 00:00:54 2025